If Evolution Were Rerun ...

[NotBlinded]

Bogus question. All it asks is, "Would things be different if they were different?"

No, I'm asking for a specific outcome(equally sentient life) not any outcome (as in any difference).

Yes, no, maybe, possibly, probably.

No kidding. We say who knows and he'll say yes, because God made humans. Let's say we destroy all humans from this planet. Will evolution bring humans about again? Who knows? Will God just go "poof" and we'll reappear?

 

This seems like a very silly line of questioning.

[The-Captain]

While no one can calculate the probabilities involved exactly because of the complexity of the problem, one can not help but be amazed at given how many vertebrate species that have evolved on our planet over the last 200 my or so that we are the only one that has reached the level we have. We certainly are the only one that has calculated the beginning of the cosmos, and archaeology strongly suggest we are the only one to have created complex religious structures.

 

It ain't over till it's over

[Snakefoot]

Bogus question. All it asks is, "Would things be different if they were different?"

No, I'm asking for a specific outcome(equally sentient life) not any outcome (as in any difference).

Yes, no, maybe, possibly, probably.

No kidding. We say who knows and he'll say yes, because God made humans. Let's say we destroy all humans from this planet. Will evolution bring humans about again? Who knows? Will God just go "poof" and we'll reappear?

 

This seems like a very silly line of questioning.

If we're going to speculate, might as well go whole-Star Trek-hog and re-evolve from the Big Bang forward. Earth as we know it did not develop. Instead, a massive planet called Compute This! orbiting binary stars spawn silicon-based life, which evolved into intelligent beings. Their language, which when translated to English looks like (#(*# %(^&@# %*_&~gaaarrgh, is unpronounceable by the human vocal system. The Compute Thisians! are massive, squat beings developed for life in super gravity.

 

They worship their binary suns as the equivalent Adam and Eve, which gave birth to each other so they are one yet separate, a Duplicitous Gawdhead in the planet's religion.

 

See?

[Snakefoot]

While no one can calculate the probabilities involved exactly because of the complexity of the problem, one can not help but be amazed at given how many vertebrate species that have evolved on our planet over the last 200 my or so that we are the only one that has reached the level we have. We certainly are the only one that has calculated the beginning of the cosmos, and archaeology strongly suggest we are the only one to have created complex religious structures.

 

It ain't over till it's over

So, the evolved-canine super race then worships a mirror-image of "god."

[OrdinaryClay]

While no one can calculate the probabilities involved exactly because of the complexity of the problem, one can not help but be amazed at given how many vertebrate species that have evolved on our planet over the last 200 my or so that we are the only one that has reached the level we have. We certainly are the only one that has calculated the beginning of the cosmos, and archaeology strongly suggest we are the only one to have created complex religious structures.

 

It ain't over till it's over

You're right. There is the future yet. Still I think it is very interesting that we are the only one so far. Geology tells us so. SETI has failed completely, and we have zero evidence of any visiting intelligence.

[Ouroboros]

Clay is going to argue the probability and statistical numbers for evolution of intelligent life, just wait and see.

While no one can calculate the probabilities involved exactly because of the complexity of the problem, one can not help but be amazed at given how many vertebrate species that have evolved on our planet over the last 200 my or so that we are the only one that has reached the level we have. We certainly are the only one that has calculated the beginning of the cosmos, and archaeology strongly suggest we are the only one to have created complex religious structures.

Very true.

 

But consider this, if there had been two different species, both living together in some form of harmony, what would have happened to religion and your question now? Would you have stated the question to be: It's hard not to be amazed that we only evolved to two different species with the capability of...

 

Or if we had been three species?

 

Or think about this, why is it that many scientific findings were discovered close to each other in time, at two or three different places? Or that some discoveries were discovered once, then forgotten, and then rediscovered? Isn't that also amazing? So why do only we know the things we know currently? Why don't we know things that we don't know?

 

Simply put. We are what we are, and we know what we know. If the situation had been different, your question would have been the same, but just with the other parameters involved. If one intelligent species had evolved from the dinosaurs, we'd be asking ourself why only green lizzard like creatures with a tail became intelligent, and no other species, why not the apes?

 

 

He will argue that it is impossible to evolve to what we are because the probability is so low.

Low probability does not equate to impossible, so I would not ague that.

Looks like you're learning quickly.

[Ouroboros]

You're right. There is the future yet. Still I think it is very interesting that we are the only one so far. Geology tells us so. SETI has failed completely, and we have zero evidence of any visiting intelligence.

Yes, shame on science. It only had a few hundred years to build up to what it knows now, and it's basically nothing compared to all the amazing knowledge and insight into nature and existence religions (especially Christianity) managed to build up in 2,000 years. I mean, science must be crap since it couldn't figure out God is the answer to every equation.

[NotBlinded]

While no one can calculate the probabilities involved exactly because of the complexity of the problem, one can not help but be amazed at given how many vertebrate species that have evolved on our planet over the last 200 my or so that we are the only one that has reached the level we have. We certainly are the only one that has calculated the beginning of the cosmos, and archaeology strongly suggest we are the only one to have created complex religious structures.

 

It ain't over till it's over

So, the evolved-canine super race then worships a mirror-image of "god."

"If horses had Gods, they would look like horses!" Xenophanes

 

[Snakefoot]

While no one can calculate the probabilities involved exactly because of the complexity of the problem, one can not help but be amazed at given how many vertebrate species that have evolved on our planet over the last 200 my or so that we are the only one that has reached the level we have. We certainly are the only one that has calculated the beginning of the cosmos, and archaeology strongly suggest we are the only one to have created complex religious structures.

 

It ain't over till it's over

So, the evolved-canine super race then worships a mirror-image of "god."

"If horses had Gods, they would look like horses!" Xenophanes

 

[NotBlinded]

Or think about this, why is it that many scientific findings were discovered close to each other in time, at two or three different places? Or that some discoveries were discovered once, then forgotten, and then rediscovered? Isn't that also amazing? So why do only we know the things we know currently? Why don't we know things that we don't know?

 

Simply put. We are what we are, and we know what we know. If the situation had been different, your question would have been the same, but just with the other parameters involved. If one intelligent species had evolved from the dinosaurs, we'd be asking ourself why only green lizzard like creatures with a tail became intelligent, and no other species, why not the apes?

Well, I happen to have insider information that we are the other parameter. I have a hotline to the Sleestak.

[Rev R]

we are the only one to have created complex religious structures.

 

and so dies the myth that we are the smartest being on the planet

[Legion]

I see that many animals have developed rather elaborate nervous systems. Most of them are mammals, but not all. An octopus has a fairly developed brain. My inclination is that evolution produces ever more capable organisms. Further, I think the more an animal is able to understand then the more capable they will be at achieving optimality for themselves.

Makes sense, but still we have no evidence of any other species understanding the cosmos as we do.

Clay I think every organism that is making a living in the world has unique understandings which are sufficient for how they make their living. If you disagree and want to hash this out, then I am willing but it may take a while.

 

I also strongly suspect that life exists elsewhere in the galaxy. And I suspect that evolution in these places has also produced intelligence.

Possible, but then you have to ask the question Fermi did.

I've heard Fermi's argument. All kinds of arguments have been proffered for and against. I don't know, rather I look at all those stars and strongly suspect.

[NotBlinded]

we are the only one to have created complex religious structures.

 

and so dies the myth that we are the smartest being on the planet

[The-Captain]

You're right. There is the future yet. Still I think it is very interesting that we are the only one so far. Geology tells us so. SETI has failed completely, and we have zero evidence of any visiting intelligence.

 

It certainly is interesting. I can't help but wonder if we are simply overrating the worth of our intelligence though. Perhaps it is rare because it is self-destructive. Perhaps SETI's transmissions are echoing off the ruins of all the other intelligent aberrations out there.

[Legion]

Perhaps SETI's transmissions...

I believe SETI doesn't transmit, rather they listen.

 

And an interesting fact from information theory is that a signal which carries the most information is also the most highly encoded and appears random. Someone who was using bandwidth with high efficiency might be very difficult to detect.

[mwc]

No kidding. We say who knows and he'll say yes, because God made humans. Let's say we destroy all humans from this planet. Will evolution bring humans about again? Who knows? Will God just go "poof" and we'll reappear?

I don't know either. Let's ask Noah if that's how things get done.

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

And an interesting fact from information theory is that a signal which carries the most information is also the most highly encoded and appears random. Someone who was using bandwidth with high efficiency might be very difficult to detect.

I think the reasoning is that another intelligent race might send simple messages, without too much encoding, for the purpose of contact. But I wonder, are we? I doubt it. So why would we expect other species to send messages for the purpose of contact only? We did send that voyager, or something, right?

 

One problem I heard about once was the rise of internet and digital technology. We are slowly going quiet, but I'm not sure that's true anymore. Cellphones and satellite TV and such. It is possible however that another intelligent race evolved and use a different technology now, so we can't pick up their signal. There's only a window in time, and out analog windows was like 100 years, right? The chances that our window overlaps their window is extremely low.

[Shyone]

And an interesting fact from information theory is that a signal which carries the most information is also the most highly encoded and appears random. Someone who was using bandwidth with high efficiency might be very difficult to detect.

I think the reasoning is that another intelligent race might send simple messages, without too much encoding, for the purpose of contact. But I wonder, are we? I doubt it. So why would we expect other species to send messages for the purpose of contact only? We did send that voyager, or something, right?

 

This from SETI Wiki page:

 

Directed by Douglas Vakoch at SETI in Mountain View, the Interstellar Message Composition Project is charged with sending messages to extraterrestrials that convey basic scientific or mathematical principles, as well as human altruism. Vackoch's idea is to send a message of reciprocal altruism because hopefully any extraterrestrials would reciprocate with a reply back.

[Ouroboros]

Thanks Shyone. I stand corrected.

 

I wonder though, while we have a lot of radio activity going on, is there a chance the signals get scrambled? I suspect there is a possibility of interference and things like that.

[OpheliaGinger]

I imagine if life wasn't largely wiped out several times in Earths history there would be a number of different sentient life forms today. Mostly lower order critters survived the great wipe-outs.

Ground-burrowing animals and some sea life at that.

 

Burrowing being the key. As it turns out, the ground is a very effective insulator.

 

While no one can calculate the probabilities involved exactly because of the complexity of the problem, one can not help but be amazed at given how many vertebrate species that have evolved on our planet over the last 200 my or so that we are the only one that has reached the level we have. We certainly are the only one that has calculated the beginning of the cosmos, and archaeology strongly suggest we are the only one to have created complex religious structures.

 

It ain't over till it's over

So, the evolved-canine super race then worships a mirror-image of "god."

"If horses had Gods, they would look like horses!" Xenophanes

 

 

Exactly. That is why most gods (if not every god) resembles a human in some manner. This even extends to our perceptions of extraterrestrials because we want to see something that reminds us of human beings but not human....entirely.

[FourDogBrewing]

If evolution were rerun on Earth would a sentient animal with the same level of abstract thought as humans, i.e. able to understand and predict the universe, have arisen? I'm not asking could it have arisen. I'm asking would it have.

 

Given a long enough time line, yes.

 

Don't you get it yet?

[Legion]

This from SETI Wiki page:

 

Directed by Douglas Vakoch at SETI in Mountain View, the Interstellar Message Composition Project is charged with sending messages to extraterrestrials that convey basic scientific or mathematical principles, as well as human altruism. Vackoch's idea is to send a message of reciprocal altruism because hopefully any extraterrestrials would reciprocate with a reply back.

Yeah Shyone, I also stand corrected.

 

I have mixed feelings about delibrately sending these signals. In the absence of facts, we've concocted a variety of fictional aliens, some kind and some cruel.

[sciencemike]

I always wondered what would happen if another species evolved on Earth in a similar fashion as humans along the same time-frame as us, with complex linguistic capabilities, if only just to disprove the idea of human exceptionalism. Yes, we have examples like Koko the gorilla who understood American Sign Language, but what I was envisioning was an entire other species with their own form of modern civilization in coexistence with our own. Imagine how much that would have changed our philosophies, religions, cultures and worldviews, in addition to the complexities of inter-species relationships and the layout of such a political structure.

 

Heck, throw in some invading alien species from another planet into the mix and then you have an entertaining science fiction where the two sentient species native to Earth (humans and the other species) would cast aside their differences, form an alliance and drive away the invaders.

 

..Perhaps I have been watching too much sci-fi

[Snakefoot]

I always wondered what would happen if another species evolved on Earth in a similar fashion as humans along the same time-frame as us, with complex linguistic capabilities, if only just to disprove the idea of human exceptionalism. Yes, we have examples like Koko the gorilla who understood American Sign Language, but what I was envisioning was an entire other species with their own form of modern civilization in coexistence with our own. Imagine how much that would have changed our philosophies, religions, cultures and worldviews, in addition to the complexities of inter-species relationships and the layout of such a political structure.

 

Heck, throw in some invading alien species from another planet into the mix and then you have an entertaining science fiction where the two sentient species native to Earth (humans and the other species) would cast aside their differences, form an alliance and drive away the invaders.

 

..Perhaps I have been watching too much sci-fi

Koko was/is a hoax.

[Ouroboros]

Koko was/is a hoax.

Really? That's the first I hear about that. It'd be interested in a link.

 

The only thing I can find is that there were a lot of bias and observer confirmation problems, but I can't say if the trainer or anyone else actually intentionally tried to deceive the scientific community.

 

Did she come out and admit to the fraud, or?