A Cry For Help

[Lotus]

Hello all,

 

I am trying so hard to break out and away from all my "programming".

 

I cannot think of where else to post this, please forgive me if its incorrect.

 

 

In my mind and my analysis of various bible bloopers I am quite sure it's all stuff and nonsense.

 

Yet 1 thing nags my mind over and over.

 

It comes from my childhood where my religious instruction teacher freaked me out over hell and demons and such like.

(In my first post, about my deprogramming,I talk about this more)

 

 

Then I find some posts by various priests (some clearly quite nuts!!) that they've done excorcisms on people.

Spooky. I know science had shown that people that believe in that stuff will act in certain ways, fulfilling expections of anyone watching.

(I forget the researcher now but its been established its basically like people at a hynpotists stage show)

 

But there was 1 vatican guy who had claimed to see people levitate. This threw me into chaos. Is this real?if so, doesn't this drag the whole set of beliefs as back and true. If he was deluded what did he see? I cant believe he lied directly somehow, but I can belive he was fooled,willingly or unwillingly by someone he was supposdely helping.

 

Please excuse the rambling nature of this post . I need to share my worries.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I followed a preacher for nearly a decade and he told tales about miracle after miracle, people born with no bones given bones by Jesus; a woman who was cursed by witches and had horns growing out of her back, cured by Jesus; rode his motorcycle off a cliff accidentally and was transported to safety miles away; on and on it went. I never once in that time saw any miracles. I attended many meetings with him, and saw countless videos and listened to audios, and while he claimed many healings, I encountered none, and neither did those that I brought who were sick or in wheelchairs. I've since learned that making claims and telling anecdotal stories isn't evidence at all. There are lots of good story-tellers out there that can thrill audiences and gather followers. Until someone you know who is uncurable is cured, doubt it. Until someone you know levitates, it isn't real.

 

There are people who will spit and curse god and all kinds of things to get attention, because they want so much for their own problems to be explained by "possession", when all along they are simply making bad choices and don't want to be the one to blame. They get "delivered" repeatedly, but keep having issues because they continue to make bad choices, and continue to want to be focused on by caring professionals.

[Lotus]

Thank you Fuego, your answer brings me some comfort at this quite difficult time

 

Thanks so much.

[Lotus]

The article is here

 

http://www.dailyillini.com/diversions/2009/10/28/exorcist-shares-past-experiences-with-demonic-possession

[centauri]

But there was 1 vatican guy who had claimed to see people levitate. This threw me into chaos. Is this real?if so, doesn't this drag the whole set of beliefs as back and true. If he was deluded what did he see? I cant believe he lied directly somehow, but I can belive he was fooled,willingly or unwillingly by someone he was supposdely helping.

I'm of the opinion that when religion, money, or politics is involved you can never assume someone isn't lying.

I won't venture into trying to establish such a claim as true or not, but doesn't it strike you as odd that nobody in the Vatican could heal the last Pope of any of his afflictions?

Why do so many Christian preachers and clergy wear glasses?

Can't they correct their vision with Holy Spirit power?

Why can't a single Christian empty a hospital, mental ward, or grow missing limbs back for people that have lost them?

"Miracles" don't establish religious doctrine as being true.

On the old Star Trek TV series and the newer Stargate SG-1 series, there were several times when aliens performed some "magic" for the purpose of duping people into believing they were gods.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

It comes from my childhood where my religious instruction teacher freaked me out over hell and demons and such like.

 

Hi there, Lotus!

 

I agree with your assessment of exorcisms that sometimes people simply fulfill the expectations of those watching. I witnessed one "exorcism" which was exactly this way... mind you, it was a very innocuous one compared to the more sensational ones I've heard about (or that you can find on youtube).

 

With respect to the priest's claim that he saw people levitating... why do you automatically discount the idea that this could be a lie?

Sure, he could also be mistaken.

Also, suppose that someone did levitate... does that necessarily mean it was caused by demons? Demons specifically of the kind fundies believe in? Doesn't that assume an awful lot beyond the "levitation"?

 

 

There have been some other threads about hell and demons around here that you may be interested in. It was one of my big bugaboos, too, so you are not alone. Let me see if I can dig some of them up for you.

 

Ran from religion during spiritual warfare

23 Minutes in Hell

Exorcisms & Demonic Possession

To Hell with Hell

[The-Captain]

To paraphrase Thomas Paine, a second hand revelation is just a rumor and you are not obligated to believe it. Sure some of these miracles may actually occur, or something similar to them does, or the recipient experiences something that sure seemed like one. But what does this have to do with you? Should your belief or lack of belief be contingent on a lot of unfounded rumor?

[merc_m]

Hello all,

 

I am trying so hard to break out and away from all my "programming".

 

I cannot think of where else to post this, please forgive me if its incorrect.

 

 

In my mind and my analysis of various bible bloopers I am quite sure it's all stuff and nonsense.

 

Yet 1 thing nags my mind over and over.

 

It comes from my childhood where my religious instruction teacher freaked me out over hell and demons and such like.

(In my first post, about my deprogramming,I talk about this more)

 

 

Then I find some posts by various priests (some clearly quite nuts!!) that they've done excorcisms on people.

Spooky. I know science had shown that people that believe in that stuff will act in certain ways, fulfilling expections of anyone watching.

(I forget the researcher now but its been established its basically like people at a hynpotists stage show)

 

But there was 1 vatican guy who had claimed to see people levitate. This threw me into chaos. Is this real?if so, doesn't this drag the whole set of beliefs as back and true. If he was deluded what did he see? I cant believe he lied directly somehow, but I can belive he was fooled,willingly or unwillingly by someone he was supposdely helping.

 

Please excuse the rambling nature of this post . I need to share my worries.

 

Not to be dismissive, but why do you need to know the answers to these questions? Until you really know why, none of our answers are going to 'do it' for you. At least that's been my experience.

[Objet_trouve24]

Don't many groups claim miracles and fantastical feats? Even if this guy did make people levitate, does that prove christianity is the way and the truth?

 

I dated a hypnotist for a while, and together we sought out all manner of magicians and hypnotists. We saw people walk on broken glass without a scratch. We saw a person stretched out over two chairs, and then a guy jumped on his back, between the chairs. We saw a whole mall full of people stop what they were doing and raise their arms. NONE of this was done in the name of religion. It was done in the name of entertainment. Some of it can be attributed to science, most of it is due to slight of hand and the performer messing with your head.

 

There are many things in the world science can't explain, or at least can't explain yet. And there are many things science CAN explain, but people might not take the time to find out how. I think what you need to remember is that fantastical sights and pseudo miracles are not unique to christianity. I've seen people levitate too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84Xnxxkiggw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxg3Q3IU-xk&feature=related

 

Take it from someone who has in her life gotten drunk on water, walked outside nude while believing to be full clothed, and has taken on entirely new personas at the tugging of an ear and the mention of an apple. Magicians and hypnotists are very very good at what they do.

 

Do not allow illusions to sway you. Look for something REAL. You KNOW that the bible is bunk, some guy sawing a woman in half does not change that. You KNOW that religion can be used to take advantage of you, to get your money and your devotion, card tricks do not change that.

 

I urge you to watch stuff like the following video as part of your deprogramming. It's important to know how intricate these tricks can be, and how easy it is to find yourself following them. It's important to know how your brain functions, and how tricks like these can be used to exploit you.

 

 

I also want you to think about something. Is it possible that you're simply looking for a reason to go on believing? I don't blame you at all if you are. Leaving christianity can be hard, for many even dangerous. Hypnosis and brainwashing can only work if something inside you wants it to work. My ex was very charismatic, and very sexy. I WANTED to be hypnotized, because it was fun and often erotic. When I began seeing him for what he was, and realized he was using me and my family, it became increasingly harder to hypnotize me. The hypnosis was never against my will, in fact it depended upon my will. The subject has to trust, and the subject has to want it for it to work. In a way, the subject is more in control than you would think. Perhaps in your subconcious, something wants to believe, for whatever reason. Perhaps you are afraid of loneliness, or want to feel like there's a deeper meaning to life. These are valid emotions, but if you want to deprogram, you have to acknowledge them, and learn to control them.

 

My recommendation to you is that you keep reinforcing the non-belief, even, and especially, when it hurts. Study how the brain works, study the bible, listen to other ex-christians (there are some amazing people on this site). Never stop rebelling, if you do, you run the risk of losing yourself into their demands.

[Guest]

Hello all,

 

I am trying so hard to break out and away from all my "programming".

 

I cannot think of where else to post this, please forgive me if its incorrect.

 

 

In my mind and my analysis of various bible bloopers I am quite sure it's all stuff and nonsense.

 

Yet 1 thing nags my mind over and over.

 

It comes from my childhood where my religious instruction teacher freaked me out over hell and demons and such like.

(In my first post, about my deprogramming,I talk about this more)

 

 

Then I find some posts by various priests (some clearly quite nuts!!) that they've done excorcisms on people.

Spooky. I know science had shown that people that believe in that stuff will act in certain ways, fulfilling expections of anyone watching.

(I forget the researcher now but its been established its basically like people at a hynpotists stage show)

 

But there was 1 vatican guy who had claimed to see people levitate. This threw me into chaos. Is this real?if so, doesn't this drag the whole set of beliefs as back and true. If he was deluded what did he see? I cant believe he lied directly somehow, but I can belive he was fooled,willingly or unwillingly by someone he was supposdely helping.

 

Please excuse the rambling nature of this post . I need to share my worries.

 

 

Simple solution: believe what YOU see, not what others tell you they saw. Realize that people usually have agendas when trying to convince you of something. Religion has always been about fear, so of course some "scary" stories are part of the package.

[lunaticheathen]

Simple solution: believe what YOU see, not what others tell you they saw. Realize that people usually have agendas when trying to convince you of something. Religion has always been about fear, so of course some "scary" stories are part of the package.

 

Fully agreed here. Fantastic stories from second or third, fourth, etc. hand sources are not proof of anything. May not be a lie, may just be a dream, mistaken, or self-fed delusion.

I wouldn't worry about demons or any spirit until YOU directly experience them, and then, only after asking yourself what you think it really was.

Just remember the bible is crap - after that, pretty much everything surrounding it just falls to bits.

[Phanta]

I also want you to think about something. Is it possible that you're simply looking for a reason to go on believing? I don't blame you at all if you are. Leaving christianity can be hard, for many even dangerous. Hypnosis and brainwashing can only work if something inside you wants it to work. My ex was very charismatic, and very sexy. I WANTED to be hypnotized, because it was fun and often erotic. When I began seeing him for what he was, and realized he was using me and my family, it became increasingly harder to hypnotize me. The hypnosis was never against my will, in fact it depended upon my will. The subject has to trust, and the subject has to want it for it to work. In a way, the subject is more in control than you would think. Perhaps in your subconcious, something wants to believe, for whatever reason. Perhaps you are afraid of loneliness, or want to feel like there's a deeper meaning to life. These are valid emotions, but if you want to deprogram, you have to acknowledge them, and learn to control them.

 

This whole post was great stuff, OT. I've been finding the same. This bit above was a particular revelation for me, as I never was susceptible to hypnotism because I thought I wasn't in charge. Once a psychologist set me straight, I felt much better. I still do get creeped out by people who think they are under the will of another or, worse, the HS (when it is really the minister guiding them). Now I'm finding hypnosis to be excellent mind training. I carefully do my research because I know I am exposing my brain to something deep in terms of encoding.

 

P

[Vixentrox]

Hello all,

 

I am trying so hard to break out and away from all my "programming".

 

I cannot think of where else to post this, please forgive me if its incorrect.

 

 

In my mind and my analysis of various bible bloopers I am quite sure it's all stuff and nonsense.

 

Yet 1 thing nags my mind over and over.

 

It comes from my childhood where my religious instruction teacher freaked me out over hell and demons and such like.

(In my first post, about my deprogramming,I talk about this more)

 

 

Then I find some posts by various priests (some clearly quite nuts!!) that they've done excorcisms on people.

Spooky. I know science had shown that people that believe in that stuff will act in certain ways, fulfilling expections of anyone watching.

(I forget the researcher now but its been established its basically like people at a hynpotists stage show)

 

But there was 1 vatican guy who had claimed to see people levitate. This threw me into chaos. Is this real?if so, doesn't this drag the whole set of beliefs as back and true. If he was deluded what did he see? I cant believe he lied directly somehow, but I can belive he was fooled,willingly or unwillingly by someone he was supposdely helping.

 

Please excuse the rambling nature of this post . I need to share my worries.

 

 

Simple solution: believe what YOU see, not what others tell you they saw. Realize that people usually have agendas when trying to convince you of something. Religion has always been about fear, so of course some "scary" stories are part of the package.

And question even that what you see as your senses can deceive you.

[FourDogBrewing]

The stark reality is that none of that crap is true. LOL I know just saying that doesn't help much, but there it is.

 

I grew up as an MK, and I got to experience stories as well from weirdo missionaries, maybe sharing some will help.

 

I recall when I was a kid living in Mwanza Tanzania, there was a woman who was said to be demon possessed. She lived in a roundabout at a major intersection in town, was always naked, and walking around, generally acting crazy. Now that I look back upon it, obviously she wasn't possessed, but rather probably had mental issues and needed help.

 

There was a esteemed and long time missionary in Kenya who constantly had miracles. If you were to meet him you would know that he believed what he said, and thought he was genuine. In retrospect he was an excellent conman. Anyway on with the story. He would have these great miracles and stories all he time. One time he said he was doing a crusade to the Muslim people on the coast of Kenya, and that they had attempted several times to kill him, and god intervened saving him. One time they tried to blow up his car, however no matter what they did they couldn't get it explode. Another time they sent a person to stab him with knife, the person tried repeatedly, but somehow the knife would not penetrate him etc..... Anyway later on I was roommates with his son in boarding school. It was the end of a semester and his father was coming to pick him up. Well that night on the way to pick up his son, his wife wound up dead, presumably from an attack by bandits. After police investigation with help from the UK law enforcement (Kenya is a commonwealth nation). It turns out they suspected this missionary had killed his own wife, because she had confronted him on several Kenyan mistresses he was keeping around the country. Go figure.

 

I guess the reason I told that story is to point out that you can't trust or beleive people, especially those claiming miracles. lol

[Guest InvertedCross]

levitation is real.