Evidence For Christianity

[edwardianbeauty]

I am a Christian and I want to say something. I don't know why you are not Christians anymore and why some of you even seem hostile towards Christianity but I know Christianity is real.

 

1. Why would people such Peter and Paul were willing to die for something that they knew was a hoax?

 

http://www.embracehisgrace.com/Martyrs.htm

 

2. How do you explain all of this thorough information?

http://www.kingdavid8.com/FAQs/Home.html

 

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/skeptics.html#reasons

 

3. There is evidence for Jesus.

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

http://www.pytlik.com/observe/deliverus/name-02.html

 

4. Why does the Bible contain accurate medical information?

http://www.creationists.org/scientific-foreknowledge-in-the-bible.html

 

5. How can you explain this amazing universe without God?

 

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/god_is_amazing.htm

[florduh]

1. Why would people such Peter and Paul were willing to die for something that they knew was a hoax?

Why would Muslims fly planes into buildings if Islam wasn't the True Religion? Did P & P really exist and really die just like the stories tell? How do you know?

 

I'll let others address the remaining Apologetics 101 entries if they care to. I suggest that if YOU are not a hoax perhaps you could look around this site a little and look at some more advanced arguments and their rebuttals. Most of us know the Bible and Christianity rather well while you probably know next to nothing of our thought processes. Use this as an opportunity to learn about why people who understand Christianity from the inside no longer believe in it.

 

Or, you can just parrot what other Christian apologists have come up with. Your choice.

 

Oh, and welcome to Ex-C.

[Eugene39]

Hello,

 

Here's a link to a recent Christianity Today article that we have been batting around as to why we left.

 

http://www.ex-christ...ow-why-we-left/

 

Here's a link to a very well written book that I have enjoyed reading.

 

http://www.godvstheb...tableofcontents

 

After reading the OT, I perfectly understood why the Jews have rejected Jesus as Messiah, which was the beginning of the end for me. If you've never read the OT completely through, I guess you'll have to take my word on it. As I put it in my reply to the Christianity Today article, when Jesus is no longer the Messiah, Christianity crumbles.

[Sybaris]

Well, you are right about one thing, Christianity is real. There is evidence for it everywhere.......... churches, books, TV programming, etc. Other religions share the same evidence and the same credibility.

[Overcame Faith]

I am a Christian

 

Yes, it's obvious.

[Realist]

I am a Christian and I want to say something. I don't know why you are not Christians anymore and why some of you even seem hostile towards Christianity but I know Christianity is real.

 

 

 

... tell me? You join this site today, you come on here touting what YOU as a christian believe ... this is CLEARLY an ex-Christian site ... would the polite and sensible thing to have done have been to look around FIRST and read a little before you open your mouth? Then you may not even have had to ask the above questions!

[BrotherJosh]

Instead of posting links to well worn "apologetic" links would you kindly please lay out your actual arguments instead of just copying and pasting to some random website? Here is one of the main reasons why I don't believe in your specific Christian/Bible God...

 

Supernatural means beyond or above nature. God is essentially exempt from Natural Laws. God is either the source of Natural Law or the creator of Natural Law. God is able to suspend Natural Law through the use of miracles. A God such as this is epistomologically transcendent or basically unknowable. God at this point is defined as being beyond human comprehension. A God at this point who can be known is inherently not supernatural since it contradicts the whole definition of supernatural. Supernatural tells us what God is not; not a part of the natural universe. This definition does not inform us of what God is. Something supernatural existing outside of the natural is not explained. An “unnatural” or supernatural” experience is not adequately explained. Characteristics define what an entity can or cannot do. A plant cannot become a car, a car cannot become an acorn, this is the uniformity of nature. Things are limited by their characteristics and can only do what they are limited to doing. This lack of randomness gives rise to scientific inquiry and law. A supernatural being therefore, can't act in the natural universe, because it cannot possess specific characteristics that would limit it's actions, by definition making it not supernatural. If a being is to be exempt from Natural Law it must not have any specific characteristics making it indeterminate. This being must exist without a limited nature, which essentially means to exist without a nature. To assign characteristics limits this supernatural being and imposes characteristics on it. The universal Christian tenet is that God is beyond human purview and is essentially unknowable. Almighty, eternal, holy, immortal, immense, ineffable, infinite, invisible, just, loving, merciful, incomprehensible, immutable, patient, perfect, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

To define the nature of God is to restrict the nature of God. As shown above, characteristics are limitations. These characteristics restrict this supernatural being to a natural being. To say God has a characteristic A is to say God does not possess characteristic -A. It is here that God is assigned Unlimited Attributes, such as omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. The problem with this is that it is self contradictory. To characterize something is to specify determined qualities and qualities cannot be separated from limitations. This is essentially assigning finite qualities to a defined infinite being. In order to escape agnosticism the Christian must posit assignable characteristics while the same time trying to not limit a by definition limitless being. God is often described in negative terms.

 

Invisible – not visible

Ineffable – indescribable

Infinite – not finite

Immaterial – not material

Eternal – not subject to time

Unknowable – not knowable

Inconceivable - not conceivable

Unrestricted – not restricted

Unlimited – not limited

The Omni's – not subject to limits

None of these negative claims make a positive claim of what God “is”. The negative definitions presuppose a positive definition, and positive definition (characteristics) are limiting. The personality of God is described thus, loving, compassionate, wise, just, knowledgable, merciful, giving etc...

All of these attributes only describe what would be the personality of God and not the metaphysical existence of God. There is an imbalance between the negative definition and the positive ones that in no way begin to explain the actual nature of a supernatural being. To apply the human concept of wisdom to God is inherently self contradictory as well. Knowledge and wisdom are gained through experience, trial and error. In order to gain wisdom, God had to go through the process of trial and error? Or that God is loving, posits the existence of God's emotions, thereby meaning God can be passionate. As we have seen, we do not have to regard rocks as having emotions since they do not have the physical capacity for emotions. This is important because as we have seen, God is described as being supernatural. A term that has a connotation of not being of the physical world. Our emotions are brought on by physical processes, emotions without physical processes, aren't emotions. Basically your "god" is an agnostic god with some window dressing.

Aside from that, why does the Bible contain no commandment against slavery? Why does it endorse genocide? Or infanticide? Or child sacrifice? Or animal sacrifice? Or killing homosexuals? Killing unruly children? Or killing adulterers? Or racism? Or sexism? Why does the bible contain talking donkeys and snakes? Why does it contain moral laws that we would find reprehensible today? Why does it mention witches, seers, and sea monsters? Why does it have hundreds of contradictions? Why do most Christians believe in the idea of eternal torment for unbelievers? Why should I kill my newly wed wife on our wedding night if she isn't a virgin? I thought the word of god stands forever?

Seriously, spend some time on here, engage in some actual debate and read some very well written articles by some very very intelligent people who write some stuff I think should be publicized. I was a Christian for my entire life, I have seen read and even repeated the same things you have cited in your post. I actually did some research, learned about my religion and realized it was wrong. The evidence led me away from Christianity. I realized and personally witnessed the damage it causes in people's lives.

[Thurisaz]

[sNIP worthless bullcrap]

 

And your valid, not-already-debunked-a-gazillion-times evidence is...?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aaaaah, aren't the crickets chirping wonderfully tonight?

[Darklady]

I am a Christian and I want to say something. I don't know why you are not Christians anymore and why some of you even seem hostile towards Christianity but I know Christianity is real.

 

1. Why would people such Peter and Paul were willing to die for something that they knew was a hoax?

 

http://www.embracehisgrace.com/Martyrs.htm

 

2. How do you explain all of this thorough information?

http://www.kingdavid8.com/FAQs/Home.html

 

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/skeptics.html#reasons

 

3. There is evidence for Jesus.

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

http://www.pytlik.com/observe/deliverus/name-02.html

 

4. Why does the Bible contain accurate medical information?

http://www.creationists.org/scientific-foreknowledge-in-the-bible.html

 

5. How can you explain this amazing universe without God?

 

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/god_is_amazing.htm

 

are you serious?

[Guest Valk0010]

So just because, peter and paul believed in something that wasn't true, that means they were lying, ever heard of cult like delusion.

 

 

 

A weird definition of love and caring. Is it because they aren't christian enough?

 

What empirical, scientific, criteria do you have to prove, even if there was a god that created the world, that its the christian god and not say Zeus?

 

And so what, if there is a historical Jesus, big whoop, ohh and aliens exist to, because people just say so.

 

The bible may have correct medical information big whoop, the Greeks first postulated the idea of the atom, does that mean the Greeks have true gods to.

[oddbird1963]

I am a Christian and I want to say something. I don't know why you are not Christians anymore and why some of you even seem hostile towards Christianity but I know Christianity is real.

Why don't you show some basic human to human respect and read a few pages on this forum? For instance, there is a "testimonies of former christians" section. Perhaps that would make the statement "I don't know why you are not Christians anymore and why some of you even seem hostile towards Christianity" irrelevant.

 

You would know why if you took some time to read what people are saying. All it takes is reading thoughtfully and taking people at their word.

 

"I know Christianity is real" is actually a subjective feeling. "I know Islam is real" or "I know Buddhism is real" are both just as subjective and just as valid a truth claim. They are all three reflections of a subjective experience. They are all three not valid as a truth claim. The only truth they reveal is that certain people believe their religion is real.

[Astreja]

I am a Christian and I want to say something. I don't know why you are not Christians anymore and why some of you even seem hostile towards Christianity but I know Christianity is real.

Of course Christianity is real! It's been the bane of humanity for 1685 years.

 

It is, however, based on some pretty damned stupid mythology:

 

• All of humanity is somehow tainted from birth as the result of an incident with a magical fruit tree and a Talking Snake™
   
  
• A 40-day flood somehow manages to cover the entire earth to the top of the highest mountain (which we now know to be Qomolangma, over 29,000 feet tall, while a hastily constructed boat containing two of every animal on Earth bobs along in rain falling at the rate of 30 feet per hour.
   
  
• Some rabbi is executed, then comes back to life three days later and gets whooshed up into the sky.
   
  
• A "loving" god declares a War to End All Wars (Já, riiight...) that involves lambs with swords sticking out of their mouths; scary dudes traipsing about on horsies; and a humongous dragon capable of knocking a third of the stars out of the sky. I mean, really, now: Even if we just count the Milky Way galaxy here, that's something in the order of 3.3 billion stars. A dragon big enough to pull off a stunt like that would exert such an immense gravitational force that it would rip our solar system apart long before the terrorists angels show up with the biological weapons plagues.

1. Why would people such Peter and Paul were willing to die for something that they knew was a hoax?

I think they died for a completely different and far more realistic reason: For instance, they were simply trying to propagate the teachings of their now-dead master Jesus and ran afoul of the Roman occupiers and the rabbinical establishment.

 

2. How do you explain all of this thorough information?

What information? All I see is a bunch of unsupported mythological assertions.

 

3. There is evidence for Jesus.

Unfortunately, none of this alleged "evidence" came from eyewitnesses or disinterested parties. One would think that a traveller to Jerusalem from a neighbouring territory would have written something in his journal about that amazing weekend with the 3-hour darkness, the earthquake and the zombies roaming the streets. Not a sausage.

 

If Jesus existed, I think he was just a run-of-the-mill preacher with no actual miraculous powers, and I also think that he died and stayed dead.

 

4. Why does the Bible contain accurate medical information?

You mean, like using a brass serpent on a pole to cure snakebite? Or perhaps you mean curing leprosy by taking a dunk in the Jordan River or by smearing bird blood all over the leper? (And how 'bout them joyful kidneys in Proverbs 23:16?)

 

I suspect that any real medical information that managed to sneak into the Bible was plagiarized from well-established Greek physicians such as Hippocrates. The ancients were many things, but they most certainly were not all scientific illiterates and figured out a good many things on their own, without resorting to gods.

 

5. How can you explain this amazing universe without God?

I've got a better question: How do you explain your alleged god without, say, matter and energy already existing? In order for your god to do anything at all, it would have to already possess energy. Where there is energy, one can also have matter. With both, you can have all the universes you want.

[SleeplessGhost]

I know that it may be a little early in the thread for this, but shouldn't this be moved to the lions den?

 

I will only answer the questions that I don't need to follow links to get to and I will also suggest that in the future you actually explain your arguments instead of posting links to websites. Honestly, I know that Christianity keeps many people from thinking for themselves but this is pathetic!

 

1. Many people willingly die for their belief systems if the believe there is a good reason to. For example: Muslim extremists are more than willing to martyr themselves because that is the only way that is guaranteed to get you into heaven. I believe that there are also scriptures in the bible that support this but I feel as lazy as edwardianbeauty and don't want to do research.

 

2-4 It's late and I don't want to follow the links to your apologetic websites.

 

5. The universe is mysterious and even amazing. There is no concrete evidence that a deity did not create the universe. There is evidence for the universe originating from a central point, thus the big bang theory. I would also like to add that you cannot prove that the universe did not come into being five minutes ago with everything as it is now. The fact of the matter is that deity is not required to explain the universe, and this is coming from a religious person.

 

I wonder if you are a troll... I also wonder if you had ready ANY of the testimonials or done any research from a third party as to why someone would leave their religion. Also, if you knew objectively that Christianity were true you would have many many followers. In fact, I think that most people in the world could be swayed by an objective, rational, argument. Also, could I get you to fill out my poll in the Lions Den?

[Guest I Love Dog]

I am a Christian and I want to say something. I don't know why you are not Christians anymore and why some of you even seem hostile towards Christianity but I know Christianity is real.

 

1. Why would people such Peter and Paul were willing to die for something that they knew was a hoax?

 

http://www.embracehisgrace.com/Martyrs.htm

 

2. How do you explain all of this thorough information?

http://www.kingdavid8.com/FAQs/Home.html

 

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/skeptics.html#reasons

 

3. There is evidence for Jesus.

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

http://www.pytlik.com/observe/deliverus/name-02.html

 

4. Why does the Bible contain accurate medical information?

http://www.creationists.org/scientific-foreknowledge-in-the-bible.html

 

5. How can you explain this amazing universe without God?

 

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/god_is_amazing.htm

 

Probably by the time you reach 13 you'll be old enough to stop believing in the nonsense of Christianity. We can only hope.

[Vixentrox]

-waves and laughes at the newest christard on the site-

[Guest I Love Dog]

 

4. Why does the Bible contain accurate medical information?

http://www.creationists.org/scientific-foreknowledge-in-the-bible.html

 

 

The bible also contains accurate information about lighting sacrificial fires correctly. Next time you burn a beast to him let's hope you do it right or he will zap you on the spot.

 

A little research project for you:

 

http://www.evilbible.com see how "great" your god is

 

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com for the lack of proof of his existence

[excalvinist]

Wow!

A mighty warrior of Jehovah steps in to save us all. LOL

You are probably fifteen years old.

[JadedAtheist]

I am a Christian and I want to say something. I don't know why you are not Christians anymore and why some of you even seem hostile towards Christianity but I know Christianity is real.

 

1. Why would people such Peter and Paul were willing to die for something that they knew was a hoax?

 

http://www.embracehi...com/Martyrs.htm

 

2. How do you explain all of this thorough information?

http://www.kingdavid.../FAQs/Home.html

 

http://www.rationalc...cs.html#reasons

 

3. There is evidence for Jesus.

 

http://www.gotquesti...esus-exist.html

http://www.pytlik.co...us/name-02.html

 

4. Why does the Bible contain accurate medical information?

http://www.creationi...-the-bible.html

 

5. How can you explain this amazing universe without God?

 

http://www.jesus-is-..._is_amazing.htm

 

1. People die for delusions all the time. As Florduh already mentioned there a loads of Muslim suicidal bombers who died for a lie. All the Jonestown people died for a delusion and there are countless other examples. This is of course assuming Peter and Paul actually existed (which is debatable). I would suggest reading some books by Ehrman or Price on this topic, not to mention the testimony books by Loftus and Barker which if I remember correctly deal with this issue (among others).

 

2. I couldn't be bothered going point by point on this link but simply because someone writes a 1 paragraph rebuttal to a question posed doesn't mean it is "thorough information". We can most likely go through all these points but I doubt if I brought up REAL issues you would be able to answer them with anything other than you saying you will trust God. Namely, can you explain why Proverbs and Psalms seem to be reworkings of (much) earlier Egyptian and Canaanite religious texts?

 

3. Josephus' quote was more than likely added in by later Christians. Tacitus was talking about Christians and mentioned that they worshiped one called Christ (Crestus I think to be exact). This doesn't imply he believes Christ to exist of course as I might say Hindus follow one called Ganesh but I of course do not believe he exists. Pliny doesn't talk about Christ and the Babylonian Talmud doesn't talk about Christ either. Check with an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi and ask them (the timing is before Christ anyways). Anyways this is just a long way of saying that there is no proof for the existence of Christ.

 

4. The Quran contains accurate medical information and the Vedas predict aircraft but neither are supernatural in both of our opinions.

 

5. Not everyone here is an atheist but as an atheist all I can really say is until credible proof is shown for the existence of a God I must otherwise assume there is none.

 

I do appreciate your evangelism attempts but please realize that a lot of us were in Christianity for a long time and some of us (like me) have theological training. We know the Bible and we know Christianity. So please take into consideration our "qualifications" before assuming we are ignorant fools who left Christianity because we didn't know any better. If anything it should make you question your own faith. How can all these people who know all this information about Christianity and have been Christians for such a long time be able to leave the faith? Is there something I don't know that they do?

 

I realize that it probably wasn't intentional (probably immaturity or zealousness on your part) but you come across quite arrogant trying to teach us about the faith. May I suggest instead of trying to teach us, could you perhaps stick around and learn? I'm sure if you do so honestly you will come to the very hard conclusion we all had to face but at least you will have come to the truth.

 

I hope to see more of you in that context.

[centauri]

I am a Christian and I want to say something. I don't know why you are not Christians anymore and why some of you even seem hostile towards Christianity but I know Christianity is real.

Others here have already taken the time to respond to your bullet points, which have been dealt with many times.

Perhaps you can address a couple of questions.

These questions were posed to a zealous Christian preacher (Rayskidude) who likes to visit this site and give sermons.

However, he ran away from these questions like a scalded cat.

Without resorting to special pleading or circular logic which uses the New Testament to prove the New Testament is true, provide answers to the following:

 

Where does the law of God permit humans to be used as sin sacrifices?

 

What are some of the requirements for a valid sin sacrifice?

 

Where does the new covenant, as defined in the "Old Testament", state that obeying the law of God would be replaced by faith in a vicarious human sacrifice?

 

Christianity is simply replacement and revisionist theology until you can show otherwise.

[Guest Net Eng]

Aaaaah, aren't the crickets chirping wonderfully tonight?

 

Indeed, her account has been logged into today and yet not a single response...

 

Not atypical for the xian apologists.

 

 

<chirp> <chirp> <chrip>

[Darklady]

Maybe he/she is talking some advice and reading the posts here........

[Deva]

I am a Christian and I want to say something. I don't know why you are not Christians anymore and why some of you even seem hostile towards Christianity...

 

If you are not just a post and run fundy you might want to read the Testimonies section. That would give you a clue.

[Leinad89]

From one of the websites you linked to:

Why doesn't God just prove His existence to everyone?

There is enough evidence for God's existence that if someone wants to believe in Him, they can, but He leaves enough to faith that if someone does not want to believe, they don't have to. God wants willing and faithful followers, and will not force belief upon anyone. God wants us to have faith, and if faith depends on absolute proof, then it is not faith.

So... Hmmm.. Let's get this straight. He want people to decide BEFORE knowing for certain. Why? What is the merit in faith?

I would have been so much more willing and faithful had I actually KNOWN for a FACT that he was there.

Just that whole line "God wants us to have faith, and if faith depends on absolute proof, then it's not faith".

Read it again, repeatedly. Isn't it more of a free will-choice if we can see the options laid out before us and choose which we want to follow through with?

Is it better to make a life-altering decision BEFORE the options are clear to you? I just don't see the merit in blindly believing apart from being able to, at will, shut down the logic centers in the brain.

[Leinad89]

If God made us, then aren't our sins God's fault?

God gave us free will, and we used our free will to disobey God. We could only call our sins God's fault if we did NOT have free will. The only way God could have made us not to sin would have been to not allow us free will. And would you have preferred to have been made as a mindless robot, programmed to do only what God wanted you to do, incapable of thinking for yourself?

What about heaven, then? Will we be able to exercise this free will in heaven? If our free will is limited in heaven to not include sin, why wasn't it like that from the beginning? You might say that "we have experienced earth, and have chosen God and not to sin anymore", but in that case, what about the millions of babies killed/dead before they reached any sort of age of accountability? Even the ones killed during abortion. The ones who didn't choose God, but who were still sent up to heaven (If dead innocent babies aren't sent up to heaven, but to hell due to original sin, then screw you).

What will prevent them from sinning, when they have no defining experience from earth of good and evil? Are we supposed to yearn for a future in heaven with no free will, just being worshiping robots?

Also, how could the first evil be created out of a reality containing only good?

[SilentLoner]

*sits back with bag of popcorn*