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The Supernatural..


Noumena
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I like to watch that series (My Ghost Story and Celebrity Ghost Stories) because they are interesting, but without actually visiting the places described--and going only on the photos and videos provided--it is difficult to really assertain what conditions in the enviornment are actually causing their sightings--or more apt, sounds. There was one episode where a man was living in a home that looked like it belonged to a hoarder (but not the extreme cases you see on TV), so my immediate thought that what he and his family were hearing most likely came from items shifting or from animals running through the clutter.

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The "ghost" in that first segment of the video looks like a cabbage patch doll.

 

I think this stuff is faked for ratings, but that's just me. I haven't had any "supernatural" experiences (except during my episodes of sleep paralysis, when I am not fully awake so I attribute these experiences as coming from my own brain).

 

I used to watch these ghost shows all the time and wonder why they never had a full-fledged "ghost" pop out and scare the pure shit out of them. It's always little flutters of activity like orbs, EVPs and shadow people.

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The "ghost" in that first segment of the video looks like a cabbage patch doll.

 

I think this stuff is faked for ratings, but that's just me. I haven't had any "supernatural" experiences (except during my episodes of sleep paralysis, when I am not fully awake so I attribute these experiences as coming from my own brain).

 

I used to watch these ghost shows all the time and wonder why they never had a full-fledged "ghost" pop out and scare the pure shit out of them. It's always little flutters of activity like orbs, EVPs and shadow people.

 

Sleep paralysis is the worst thing you could ever experience. I've never had a trip bad enough to even come close to what I've been through during sleep paralysis :/

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I think orbs are just dust or bugs... so videos and pictures of them as "evidence" of ghosts are ridiculous to me. EVPs? Not sure. The first part of this episode though, I admittedly am intrigued by. A cabbage patch doll? Interesting. I'll have to look at the vid a few more times. Could it be just another hoax for ratings? Maybe. But it sure does make me want to set up a vid camera and investigate things myself. I agree that most of the videos seem just for entertainment and ratings and such~~which upsets me cause I'd like there to be someone who is willing to seriously and objectively investigate the "supernatural" and "paranormal"....Someone like Hans Holzer. It's hard for me to poo poo and deny (which I've tried to do for years now) things that I have experienced that seem unnatural, supernatural, or paranormal, or unexplainable, or what ever you want to call it. I want to be skeptical, but I'm having trouble being that.

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I think the natural world stands in contrast to and in relationship with the mind. I believe there are natural events along with the entailments between them and cognitive experience and these two need not correspond as is evidenced by the exercise of imagining. In addition, I think that the natural world not only encompasses phenomena which we do not sense, but also that these phenomena are interrelated in ways beyond our ability to comprehend. I find it likely that the still unknown natural world is wildly different from and far richer than even our wildest imaginings.

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I find it interesting that when we see things that no one else does, we automatically assume its a factor of the outside world, instead of a factor inside of us.

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In addition, I think that the natural world not only encompasses phenomena which we do not sense, but also that these phenomena are interrelated in ways beyond our ability to comprehend. I find it likely that the still unknown natural world is wildly different from and far richer than even our wildest imaginings.

 

Totally agree, Legion.

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The "ghost" in that first segment of the video looks like a cabbage patch doll.

 

I think this stuff is faked for ratings, but that's just me. I haven't had any "supernatural" experiences (except during my episodes of sleep paralysis, when I am not fully awake so I attribute these experiences as coming from my own brain).

 

I used to watch these ghost shows all the time and wonder why they never had a full-fledged "ghost" pop out and scare the pure shit out of them. It's always little flutters of activity like orbs, EVPs and shadow people.

 

Sleep paralysis is the worst thing you could ever experience. I've never had a trip bad enough to even come close to what I've been through during sleep paralysis :/

 

Not everybody's experience with sleep paralysis is as bad as yours. My brothers and I have all dealt with it on occasion- even occasional hallucinations that go with it. I'd describe my experiences as ranging from kinda scary to mildly annoying. The really scary shit only lasts a few seconds for me- and only happens maybe every year or two. But it's 'real' enough that I can see how people could attribute it to some supernatural bullshit.

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I studied the first video more closely and I couldn't see the cabbage patch doll, but I did notice that on the left where the movement is happening it's out of focus and blurry whereas everything else is clear. That's irritating. I don't know much about video editing. This could have been set up/staged. But I am watching it on a 17" computer screen and not on HD ondemand.

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In addition, I think that the natural world not only encompasses phenomena which we do not sense, but also that these phenomena are interrelated in ways beyond our ability to comprehend. I find it likely that the still unknown natural world is wildly different from and far richer than even our wildest imaginings.

 

Totally agree, Legion.

Seeing as I am an emotional baffoon, I like it when smart people agree with me. But I wish you had included the top half of that quote. Might there be a reason why you chose to omit it?

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In addition, I think that the natural world not only encompasses phenomena which we do not sense, but also that these phenomena are interrelated in ways beyond our ability to comprehend. I find it likely that the still unknown natural world is wildly different from and far richer than even our wildest imaginings.

 

Totally agree, Legion.

Seeing as I am an emotional baffoon, I like it when smart people agree with me. But I wish you had included the top half of that quote. Might there be a reason why you chose to omit it?

 

I really couldn't understand the first part of what you were saying. *blush* But I understood the last part lol. I'm a little slow at times and this" I believe there are natural events along with the entailments between them and cognitive experience and these two need not correspond as is evidenced by the exercise of imagining." ,for some reason, I'm having trouble understanding. lol

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This has me scratching my head too. It is hard for me to think that some people would prey on the vulnerable and grieving, but it does happen. What a sick fucking joke if these "mediums" are scamming this family. :woopsie: .....Or this family...these "mediums"....and the producers playing a sick joke on us viewers for that matter.:woopsie: What a comfort it would be to believe that loved ones who have died are still hanging out with us, but in a different "form".

 

http://www.youtube.c...557/D_7yzRTvTgM

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I think this stuff is faked for ratings, but that's just me.

As I've said elsewhere on these forums, my stepson is enamored of the show Ghost Adventures and I have always thought that the pressure to fake things has to be enormous, for the simple reason that they have to come up with an hour of material each week. And even as it is, the shows are about as loosely edited / low bandwidth as they come; the gist of any one hour show could be conveyed just fine in 2 to 5 tightly edited minutes. And even at that, some episodes are just plain underwhelming -- there is no "there" there.

 

Given all that, the pressure to come up with interesting footage just about guarantees things are faked. And by that I don't mean a vast conspiracy, it can be as simple as excessive drama (Zak Bagins has this annoying habit of saying grandiose things during the show as "welcome ... to ... HELL!!"), leading questions, superimposition of huge assumptions, encouragement of emotionalism rather than calm assessment, and so forth. I've also noted a lot of appeals to bogus authority, such as stating that "experts believe" that ghosts give off electromagnetic fields. What experts? Why, "experienced ghost hunters" like themselves, of course.

 

I can still say all that despite having had an interesting paranormal experience of my own recently, because I won't label that experience beyond saying it's unexplained and for my purposes at present, un-debunkable. I think you can be open to these things so long as you don't superimpose beliefs / assumptions or make unwarranted interpretations. As you said, these things tend to be vague hints, not anything absolutely concrete and undeniable, and so at the end of the day, it is mostly likely that my experience will fall into the category of "interesting but not useful". I'm willing to sit with the unexplained and not strain to explain it any way I can.

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I think orbs are just dust or bugs... so videos and pictures of them as "evidence" of ghosts are ridiculous to me. EVPs? Not sure.

Even paranormal dabblers / ghost hungers mostly don't think "orbs" are of any significance. I think they accept a minority of them as potential evidence, particularly in conjunction with other things, but admit that most of them are in fact dust or bugs.

 

EVPs -- some of them are so unclear that it's debatable what they are saying. I've heard EVPs described as "groans" or "growls" that sound like normal background noise to me, such as a chair leg dragging on the floor. Some are startlingly clear but tend to be out of context or only vaguely relevant and so strike me as stray voices from other rooms or whatnot. Personally I would eliminate 90% of EVPs out of hand.

 

Even worse are the so-called "spirit boxes" that rapidly scan various FM frequencies and then the random syllables and words that might get strung together become messages. I think if you did that long enough you'd hear fragmentary remarks that might seem to have some relevance or spookiness. I dismiss 100% of that stuff.

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I'm with you on everything you said DesertBob and I also believe that the "ghost faces" that people see in photographs...ex: @ 10:35 on this video..

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/ParanormRUs4#p/u/491/Pvdtwqi-nRs

 

 

is obviously pareidolia.

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This has me scratching my head too. It is hard for me to think that some people would prey on the vulnerable and grieving, but it does happen. What a sick fucking joke if these "mediums" are scamming this family. :woopsie: .....Or this family...these "mediums"....and the producers playing a sick joke on us viewers for that matter.:woopsie: What a comfort it would be to believe that loved ones who have died are still hanging out with us, but in a different "form".

 

http://www.youtube.c...557/D_7yzRTvTgM

 

Whether or not the 'mediums' in question are faking something- grieving people are obviously more open to suggestion along these lines. My inlaws are a good example. My wife's sister died in an auto accident when she was 15 (more than a decade ago), and every single member of her immediate family (both parents and two sisters including my wife) claim to have seen her ghost.

 

Now for a little perspective, my wife's parents are in their 60's. Both went to the local state college, and have spent their careers as teachers and farmers. Both have lived all their lives in rural Kansas. Both come from very small towns, attend the local Methodist church on occasion (they're not even REMOTELY fundamentalist- they mainly go to church to socialize). They enjoy hunting, gardening, visiting national parks, etc. You won't find more practical, grounded, salt-of-the-earth people than my inlaws. They're not the least bit mystical- and would enjoy a good-natured chuckle at anybody who is. Yet they both believe they have seen their daughter's ghost more than once.

 

I get along with them very well, but our brains are wired differently. I'm a skeptical atheist science/math nerd at heart. They are story-tellers... that's how they relate to the world (not saying there's anything WRONG with that- it's a more common and arguably more adaptable world-view than my own). I've known the family long enough to have witnessed note-worthy events, and to observe how their stories change (and improve!) over time. And what's more, they BELIEVE their improved version of events. I've made the mistake of disputing some details a few times, and that discussion goes nowhere. So I can see how people could come to honestly believe that they've witnessed supernatural events- even if they never really happened. IMO it's human nature.

 

Now I know this post will come across as condescending- there's no way around it. But these are just my observations. Obviously I wouldn't spell out this case to my inlaws (wouldn't be any point). They seem to have come to the conclusion over the years that I wouldn't believe Jesus Christ Himself if he told me the sky was blue- unless I was looking at it right then. And I wouldn't really disagree with that.

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excessive drama (Zak Bagins has this annoying habit of saying grandiose things during the show as "welcome ... to ... HELL!!"), leading questions, superimposition of huge assumptions, encouragement of emotionalism rather than calm assessment, and so forth. I've also noted a lot of appeals to bogus authority, such as stating that "experts believe" that ghosts give off electromagnetic fields. What experts? Why, "experienced ghost hunters" like themselves, of course.

 

 

 

And these are the reasons I don't enjoy shows like Ghost Adventures or Ghost Hunters. Those shows frustrate me.

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This has me scratching my head too. It is hard for me to think that some people would prey on the vulnerable and grieving, but it does happen. What a sick fucking joke if these "mediums" are scamming this family. :woopsie: .....Or this family...these "mediums"....and the producers playing a sick joke on us viewers for that matter.:woopsie: What a comfort it would be to believe that loved ones who have died are still hanging out with us, but in a different "form".

 

http://www.youtube.c...557/D_7yzRTvTgM

 

Whether or not the 'mediums' in question are faking something- grieving people are obviously more open to suggestion along these lines. My inlaws are a good example. My wife's sister died in an auto accident when she was 15 (more than a decade ago), and every single member of her immediate family (both parents and two sisters including my wife) claim to have seen her ghost.

 

Now for a little perspective, my wife's parents are in their 60's. Both went to the local state college, and have spent their careers as teachers and farmers. Both have lived all their lives in rural Kansas. Both come from very small towns, attend the local Methodist church on occasion (they're not even REMOTELY fundamentalist- they mainly go to church to socialize). They enjoy hunting, gardening, visiting national parks, etc. You won't find more practical, grounded, salt-of-the-earth people than my inlaws. They're not the least bit mystical- and would enjoy a good-natured chuckle at anybody who is. Yet they both believe they have seen their daughter's ghost more than once.

 

I get along with them very well, but our brains are wired differently. I'm a skeptical atheist science/math nerd at heart. They are story-tellers... that's how they relate to the world (not saying there's anything WRONG with that- it's a more common and arguably more adaptable world-view than my own). I've known the family long enough to have witnessed note-worthy events, and to observe how their stories change (and improve!) over time. And what's more, they BELIEVE their improved version of events. I've made the mistake of disputing some details a few times, and that discussion goes nowhere. So I can see how people could come to honestly believe that they've witnessed supernatural events- even if they never really happened. IMO it's human nature.

 

Now I know this post will come across as condescending- there's no way around it. But these are just my observations. Obviously I wouldn't spell out this case to my inlaws (wouldn't be any point). They seem to have come to the conclusion over the years that I wouldn't believe Jesus Christ Himself if he told me the sky was blue- unless I was looking at it right then. And I wouldn't really disagree with that.

 

A lot of my family are the same way as your in laws. I thought it was kind of fun as a child, but now they just really put me off. I don't like storytellers.

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A lot of my family are the same way as your in laws. I thought it was kind of fun as a child, but now they just really put me off. I don't like storytellers.

 

I guess the way I look at it is this: Let's say you compare my skeptical/scientific approach to life to their story-teller approach to life. There are very clear strengths and weaknesses to each... neither is ideal for all situations.

 

IMO, I'm pretty good at solving problems and separating the truth from the bullshit- particularly with mechanical or electronic thingies. I think my approach works well even with less 'sciency' pursuits like hunting & fishing, analyzing politics, negotiations, etc (IOW, getting shit done in the 'real world', and picking a subject apart to get at the truth of the matter). But socially, I'm kinda retarded. I get by ok, but I'll never be able to do something like advancing my career based on social skills, running for and holding political office, being friends with all my neighbors... things like that. This sort of thing comes easily and naturally to story-tellers. And whether or not I like it or have an aptitude for it- I gotta admit that that's a powerful method of getting what you want in life.

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A lot of my family are the same way as your in laws. I thought it was kind of fun as a child, but now they just really put me off. I don't like storytellers.

 

I guess the way I look at it is this: Let's say you compare my skeptical/scientific approach to life to their story-teller approach to life. There are very clear strengths and weaknesses to each... neither is ideal for all situations.

 

IMO, I'm pretty good at solving problems and separating the truth from the bullshit- particularly with mechanical or electronic thingies. I think my approach works well even with less 'sciency' pursuits like hunting & fishing, analyzing politics, negotiations, etc (IOW, getting shit done in the 'real world', and picking a subject apart to get at the truth of the matter). But socially, I'm kinda retarded. I get by ok, but I'll never be able to do something like advancing my career based on social skills, running for and holding political office, being friends with all my neighbors... things like that. This sort of thing comes easily and naturally to story-tellers. And whether or not I like it or have an aptitude for it- I gotta admit that that's a powerful method of getting what you want in life.

 

Yeah...I'm socially inept (in the eyes of some people)too because I'm not a storyteller.....but I would rather live in truth than be a deluded social butterfly. <----I'm not trying to sound harsh or like an asshole when I say that either. It just truly baffles me how some people are fine with spreading bullshit to form a connection with others. When I see it happening right in front of my eyes, (my sister and my dad and mom do this), my first thought is 'These people are not to be trusted'. I think it IS wrong to lie to yourself and others. It makes me want to shake them and yell "Fucking STOP!!!" I don't think I'll ever understand how they are comfortable with being that way. I just don't get it.

 

I want to get to the truth of my own "paranormal" or "natural but unknown" phenomenon and I feel insulted by storytellers who like to embellish or like to use "excessive drama (Zak Bagins has this annoying habit of saying grandiose things during the show as "welcome ... to ... HELL!!"), leading questions, superimposition of huge assumptions, encouragement of emotionalism rather than calm assessment, and so forth. " It really does piss me off.

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Let's say you compare my skeptical/scientific approach to life to their story-teller approach to life. There are very clear strengths and weaknesses to each... neither is ideal for all situations.

 

I'm like you, I am wired to take the scientific, skeptical approach. My grandfather, OTH, was brilliant and was gifted with the ability to combine the two. He taught himself quantum mechanics and probably had an IQ off the charts, yet could reduce entire rooms of people to tears of laughter as he told his stories. I wish I could have inherited more from him.

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I studied the first video more closely and I couldn't see the cabbage patch doll, but I did notice that on the left where the movement is happening it's out of focus and blurry whereas everything else is clear.

 

I'm sure everyone sees something different because it is so blurry and out of focus.

 

It is strange though, even though I've never had a completely unexplained experience, there are people, like yourself, who have and these things are very real to them. I've heard people say that seeing ghosts/hearing them etc. is all just a hallucination of some sort, but I don't know. I like what Legion said too about the natural world. I agree that there are probably parts of it that we have yet to discover that would explain things like this.

 

 

 

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Sleep paralysis is the worst thing you could ever experience. I've never had a trip bad enough to even come close to what I've been through during sleep paralysis :/

Try combining sleep paralysis with a strong belief that demons are out to get you. I thought I was being thrown around my room by evil spirits a number of times. And I didn't have one person to talk to about it. Some people think they're bring abducted by aliens.

 

I never experienced ghosts though, just demons and god's presence type stuff. I like horror movies about demons now, but for some reason ghost stories scare the shit out of me at night so I don't watch them. A friend who's a Buddhist said her grandmother visited her when she was a little girl and it scared her really bad. I thought 'how rude of her'. If you're dead you need to accept it and leave the living alone, otherwise you're just a big-time asshole. I think if I ever did see a ghost, I'd be scared but I'd also be mad as hell. To me that's like someone breaking in your house at night. Personally I think we create ghosts in our mind though.

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