The Ex-c Epic Buddhism Thread

[asanerman]

Deva there are no qualifications, no conditions!

 

The good news is we are all constituented with methods to find our own unique Way!

 

No exceptions!

 

We all have "Noble Hearts."

 

Agree we all have Noble Hearts, but often layered over with the "negative factors" you listed above.

 

I was really talking about my lack of ability to express the dharma in an intelligible way.

 

I hear ya!

[Legion]

What is this mind?

Who is hearing these sounds?

Do not mistake any state for

Self-realization, but continue

To ask yourself even more intensely,

What is it that hears?

Bassui

[Rev R]

So what are we otherwise interested in if not that which makes us a little nervous—squeamish?

Depends on the person. We must remember the environment we are in. Certainly this thread functions as, much like the days of old, a grove kindly donated for the sangha to meet, practice and discuss the Way. However, because of the unique attribute of the population, there must be caution taken when discussing ideas such as emptiness or nirvana. Why? Because the language required to discuss such things borders on the mystical and even nonsensical and this language may discourage someone who has suffered damage from the doctrines of Christianity. One cannot expect another to leap directly into the void without a solid foundation. We won't know where the interest lies by potentially fostering a notion that the discussion has little to offer outside mysticism.

 

Is it a "goal" which will "overcome dukkha (dissatisfaction/suffering)..dukkha on the personal level?"

No. It is through one's effort and dedication that dukkha can be overcome.

 

A Reality we already Are, yet we can't actually speak directly to unless we “lay it between the lines,”-- in a song, poem or parable or a pithy little phrase or an action (one hand clapping).

And yet, though it cannot be spoken of directly, an inordinate amount of energy is dedicated to discussing it instead of...

the path that increases healthy states of mind (insight, mindfulness, modesty discretion, confidence, composure, nonattachment, non-aversion impartiality, buoyancy pliancy, adaptability, proficiency, rectitude) and decrease the unhealthy ones--

 

Is nirvana, the total cessation of mental processes in nibbana, a state more empty than jhana (samadhi if you please), where perceptions and thoughts cease altogether, where there is no experience whatsoever, even of bliss or equanimity? Is that what makes us pause?

Let's stick solely with the Sanskrit terminology. Nirvana (extinction) is an inconsistent teaching when we look across the traditions. Some discuss it as a state where suffering ceases while others consider it a physical/spiritual place akin to a heaven. It doesn't help that the death of Gautama is referred to as the pari-nirvana (final extinction). One thing that I have not heard it referred to is “a total cessation of mental processes”.

 

So if nirvana is “extinction”, what sort of extinction is it? It is the extinction of an ill-informed notion of a separate and intrinsic self nature. It is the extinction of the poisons that give rise to suffering and dissatisfaction, namely: greed, ignorance and hatred. In an even more practical sense, nirvana is the practice of the path itself. More succinctly, nirvana is the attempt at actualizing nirvana.

 

 

Tell me, in terms my Western, pragmatic, skeptical, nervous mind can understand, of a path to health where unhealthy factors (delusion, false view, shamelessness, recklessness, egotism, agitation, greed, aversion, envy avarice, worry,, contrition, torpor. perplexity) not only cease altogether but any and all anusayas, the latent tendencies that could potential lead to an unhealthy factor in my mind, be eradicated.

Do good, avoid evil, purify the mind.

[asanerman]

What just occurred to me Rev, is that the process of our communicating is the important thing, not the the fruition.

 

To often I rely on the word rather than meaning.

 

"Way" is what it is, regardless of how much I complicate.

 

Do good, avoid evil, purify the mind.

[Deva]

Bluegrass meets Tibetan Buddhism - a song about Padmasambhava:

 

[Legion]

Rev R, why did you block PM's from me?

 

I've a got a juicy morsel of an opening post I authored which I'm hoping you will turn your keen intellect upon and kindly rip to shreds.

[Rev R]

honestly? managing the dosage.

 

try now

[RintrahRoars]

I've been doing stretches to help me get into the full lotus sitting posture but my knees aren't the best and it may take quite some time for me to get it. Meanwhile I've been looking into meditation benches. Holy crap those look nice. Have any of you guys have experience with them? They look easy enough to build from scratch if you actually had the tools but I'm not really in the right place for that.

[Antlerman]

I've been doing stretches to help me get into the full lotus sitting posture but my knees aren't the best and it may take quite some time for me to get it. Meanwhile I've been looking into meditation benches. Holy crap those look nice. Have any of you guys have experience with them? They look easy enough to build from scratch if you actually had the tools but I'm not really in the right place for that.

I don't even try a full lotus posture. I do sit cross-legged however using a zafu meditation cushion. I have a nice one made with buckwheat hulls inside it, so it's very comfortable, and hence less distracting while meditating. It forms to you better with the husks. I can sit on that kind for over an hour that way without too much problem. But in all honesty, I see changing postures during meditation to actually be helpful, if you are experiencing discomfort of any kind. Just having good posture, not slumping over, back straight for good breathing and alignment is what's important, I find. Often that change in position helps open things up, sort of like the way yoga works.

[Deva]

I have become disillusioned about Buddhism lately. Especially the organized type. The Dharma center has decided it is necessary to build a 35 foot stupa in this time of economic recession when people can't hardly scrape together enough money to get by. I suspected before, and I think for sure now, that this particular place only caters to the wealthy. I am pretty sure I am done.

 

Buddhist philosophy? Well, this idea that the world is illusory pans out in a way that isn't so savory in actual practice. Ignore the problems, pretend they don't exist, adjust to them and accept them. This seems to be the approach. I am still way too Christian in my thinking that something should be done about it when possible. Not saying I can do Christianity again - far from it - but who has food pantries and shelters for the poor? Christians.

 

There is also the twisted notion that everyone deserves what happens to them. I personally find that hard to accept as well.

[Antlerman]

Do they really teach that the world is illusion means you should ignore it and just accept whatever injustice occurs because it's not real, or is that how you take it to mean as a former Christian of the West? I understand the illusion to be our limited, unenlightened perceptions of reality that we assume as reality. Not that the material world is false and we should just lay down and roll over. It has to do with how we are either swept away with the stream, or rise above it to see and understand better to be more effective in the world.

 

[Deva]

Do they really teach that the world is illusion means you should ignore it and just accept whatever injustice occurs because it's not real, or is that how you take it to mean as a former Christian of the West? I understand the illusion to be our limited, unenlightened perceptions of reality that we assume as reality. Not that the material world is false and we should just lay down and roll over. It has to do with how we are either swept away with the stream, or rise above it to see and understand better to be more effective in the world.

 

I don't know exactly what it is, AM. Certainly I have a lot of baggage I am carrying around from Christianity. I see a disagreement on values here. There is some big misunderstanding, I am sure. I don't know what exactly is the significance of one more big stupa in the world. Its evidently significant to them.

 

There is also a continuing and huge difference in Buddhist philosophy and practice. I just can't see how the practice, which is just repetition, can be anything more than possibly a better habit covering a worse one.

 

The problems with the view and the conduct in Tibetan Buddhism seem to have been acknowledged by masters through the centuries. Acknowledging there is a problem doesn't quite fix it.

 

Its all quite confusing for me right now.

[Antlerman]

To be honest I think all systems are flawed and it really comes to the individual in what they seek for in themselves It really doesn't matter which system it is. The system doesn't give that to the person. It's really more a matter of its usefulness.

[Deva]

To be honest I think all systems are flawed and it really comes to the individual in what they seek for in themselves It really doesn't matter which system it is. The system doesn't give that to the person. It's really more a matter of its usefulness.

 

Yes. They are all unsatisfactory in one way or another. I guess what it comes down to is I am still looking for THE answer or the way that will make life better. Too bad there doesn't seem to be one.

[Antlerman]

Stop looking externally. That's what Christianity teaches people to do. "Do this right and God will come through for you." Even Christianity however can work spiritually if it is used as a tool to look within. Looking externally for magic to happen exists in all religions. So does the interior path.

[Antlerman]

In other words THE answer already exists in you. You just need to expose it to your conscious mind. That's what all these tools are for.

[Deva]

In other words THE answer already exists in you. You just need to expose it to your conscious mind. That's what all these tools are for.

 

Hasn't worked yet. Doesn't mean it won't someday - but I'm not getting any younger.

[Antlerman]

Take the focus off yourself, your wants, your needs, your fears, and desire to grasp it. Instead let your desire be to know Love for its own sake, with no hope for yourself but to be released into it. Then you will find what you cannot by looking for it.

[asanerman]

To be honest I think all systems are flawed and it really comes to the individual in what they seek for in themselves It really doesn't matter which system it is. The system doesn't give that to the person. It's really more a matter of its usefulness.

In other words THE answer already exists in you. You just need to expose it to your conscious mind. That's what all these tools are for.

Take the focus off yourself, your wants, your needs, your fears, and desire to grasp it. Instead let your desire be to know Love for its own sake, with no hope for yourself but to be released into it. Then you will find what you cannot by looking for it.

 

I've come to the same conclusions Aman!

 

On hearing the phrase "the kingdom is within you," is when my quest began.

 

What affirmed that notion was when I purchased Cynthia Bourgeault's (2005) audio learning course The Wisdom Jesus which has since been published as a book under the same title.

 

What garbed my attention was when this Episcopal priest, writer and retreat leader made this statement,

 

"I'm first and foremost a seeker, and in my own journey, the most important thing I had to learn was not what to seek, but how to seek."

 

Granted she is Christian but she is "first and foremost a seeker." What is unusual is that by admission her "spiritual practice is grounded in a regular a regular practice of meditation...." Bourgeault is a serious student of the worldwide wisdom tradition--Sufism, Vedanta, Kabbalah, Nag Hammadi (Gnostic Scriptures).

 

She is responsible for my having searched the "wisdom ways of knowing." Through her work is was introduced to Bart Ehrman, Elaine Pagels, Richard Smokey, Valentin Tomberg, Roger Walsh, Ken Wilber, France Vaughan to name just a view.

 

To be honest I think all systems are flawed and it really comes to the individual in what they seek for in themselves It really doesn't matter which system it is. The system doesn't give that to the person. It's really more a matter of its usefulness.

 

Bourgeault uses her chosen system with all of its flaws to "gaze at the single bright moon." As you state "all systems are flawed."

 

I'm a seeker who uses more than one "vehicle/system" on the journey to Already. That does not mean that my system is not flawed, It only means that I find it useful and in many in transition--sort of like "changing the way I sit" or the way I focus, or reflect.

[Antlerman]

To be honest I think all systems are flawed and it really comes to the individual in what they seek for in themselves It really doesn't matter which system it is. The system doesn't give that to the person. It's really more a matter of its usefulness.

In other words THE answer already exists in you. You just need to expose it to your conscious mind. That's what all these tools are for.

Take the focus off yourself, your wants, your needs, your fears, and desire to grasp it. Instead let your desire be to know Love for its own sake, with no hope for yourself but to be released into it. Then you will find what you cannot by looking for it.

 

I've come to the same conclusions Aman!

 

On hearing the phrase "the kingdom is within you," is when my quest began.

 

What affirmed that notion was when I purchased Cynthia Bourgeault's (2005) audio learning course The Wisdom Jesus which has since been published as a book under the same title.

 

What garbed my attention was when this Episcopal priest, writer and retreat leader made this statement,

 

"I'm first and foremost a seeker, and in my own journey, the most important thing I had to learn was not what to seek, but how to seek."

 

Granted she is Christian but she is "first and foremost a seeker." What is unusual is that by admission her "spiritual practice is grounded in a regular a regular practice of meditation...." Bourgeault is a serious student of the worldwide wisdom tradition--Sufism, Vedanta, Kabbalah, Nag Hammadi (Gnostic Scriptures).

 

She is responsible for my having searched the "wisdom ways of knowing." Through her work is was introduced to Bart Ehrman, Elaine Pagels, Richard Smokey, Valentin Tomberg, Roger Walsh, Ken Wilber, France Vaughan to name just a view.

 

To be honest I think all systems are flawed and it really comes to the individual in what they seek for in themselves It really doesn't matter which system it is. The system doesn't give that to the person. It's really more a matter of its usefulness.

 

Bourgeault uses her chosen system with all of its flaws to "gaze at the single bright moon." As you state "all systems are flawed."

 

I'm a seeker who uses more than one "vehicle/system" on the journey to Already.

Oh my goodness. I'm just now, on my vacation break from work reading my first book of Cynthia Bourgeault, The Meaning of Mary Magdalene. I'm 2/3rds of the way through it right now. Very interesting ways of hearing her speak of this Imaginal realm, which I equate with the Subtle level experience, or the 'astral plane'. Not sure all my thoughts on this yet, but she certainly says things that resonate in this level of understanding. Interesting how that I came to her through Ken Wiber, whereas you came to Wilber through her. Fascinating.

 

As far as you quoting this from her, "I'm first and foremost a seeker, and in my own journey, the most important thing I had to learn was not what to seek, but how to seek," I very much get that! In fact for me that was one of my earliest realizations in meditation. It what I stated above to Deva how that you seek Love for its own sake, not to grasp or posses it for yourself - which is our natural inclination to do as it follows suit with how we do everything in living our lives. It was in that realization within meditation for me as the Universe opened in that place that the meaning of "Seek and you shall find" became bright and clear. You seek to become Love, you abandon yourself to it, you allow it to become you. You become a vehicle of it, laying yourself bare before it, dying to your own needs and wants. And in that, you find yourself! The shift moves off the egoic needs and wants, the self-seeking, into release in that Light. You become that, and that becomes you. And every time you shift your gaze away from it and on to yourself, it recedes - or rather you recede from that within you made manifest and clear to your conscious mind.

 

Eventually through repeated exposure of that Light in you to your conscious mind, you begin to transform into that Image. In meditation, as you in that Light, you move into that higher nature and participate in that plane as that Light in you. You connect with others within that Stream and participate in that out-flowing from within into the world, and from the world to that Light. It is all, as I loosely describe it Lessons in the Light. There was a marked shift that occurred from that 'seeker' stage of my early meditation where it hit me at about 6 months into it where I said to myself, 'I am no longer a seeker. I am Her student'. Getting to the schoolhouse is the first lesson, that afterwards you now know how. You've learned the path to the schoolhouse. Then once in that schoolhouse you continue to learn of those deep places within yourself and that 'realm', to where you participate beyond your separate self, so to speak.

 

This is the value of the Subtle state experience (which Zen tends to skip over as somehow 'inferior'), that we learn of ourselves and allow these to transform our daily lives and minds in perceptions of ourselves and the world. Beyond this is the Causal and the Nondual, and perhaps beyond. All are openings into our true Inner self. The ultimate is Being Itself in Ourselves. That sacred marriage, to allude to Borgeault's language. (Her language is very much Tantric, which is why I believe it resonates with me). There is indeed something to be said for these various understandings of the various traditions, so long as they are speaking of that inner realization. Made external, they are unsatisfying, where something like 'resurrection' in the Christian tradition is reduced to some literal resuscitation of a human corpse. That completely misses the point. It shifts the focus away from the internal spirit to the external world of time and history. It makes it outside yourself. It leaves you separate and looking for it to come to you somehow to bridge that gap for you. You have to bridge that gap in yourself.

[asanerman]

Oh my goodness. I'm just now, on my vacation break from work reading my first book of Cynthia Bourgeault, The Meaning of Mary Magdalene. I'm 2/3rds of the way through it right now. Very interesting ways of hearing her speak of this Imaginal realm, which I equate with the Subtle level experience, or the 'astral plane'. Not sure all my thoughts on this yet, but she certainly says things that resonate in this level of understanding. Interesting how that I came to her through Ken Wiber, whereas you came to Wilber through her. Fascinating.

 

Fascinating! But I'm sure it doesn't surprise you.

 

As far as you quoting this from her, "I'm first and foremost a seeker, and in my own journey, the most important thing I had to learn was not what to seek, but how to seek," I very much get that! In fact for me that was one of my earliest realizations in meditation. It what I stated above to Deva how that you seek Love for its own sake, not to grasp or posses it for yourself - which is our natural inclination to do as it follows suit with how we do everything in living our lives. It was in that realization within meditation for me as the Universe opened in that place that the meaning of "Seek and you shall find" became bright and clear. You seek to become Love, you abandon yourself to it, you allow it to become you. You become a vehicle of it, laying yourself bare before it, dying to your own needs and wants. And in that, you find yourself! The shift moves off the egoic needs and wants, the self-seeking, into release in that Light. You become that, and that becomes you. And every time you shift your gaze away from it and on to yourself, it recedes - or rather you recede from that within you made manifest and clear to your conscious mind.

 

Aman what fascinates me about Bourgeault is how she compares our "egoic operating system" can be "upgraded" to "the nondual system or the unitive system"--what she call "seeing with the Eye of the Heart"--"going into the large mind" or metanoia (Greek).

 

All this gives new meaning to "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind" or Chogyam Trungpa's Training the Mind.

 

 

.... Then once in that schoolhouse you continue to learn of those deep places within yourself and that 'realm', to where you participate beyond your separate self, so to speak.

 

...There is indeed something to be said for these various understandings of the various traditions, so long as they are speaking of that inner realization. Made external, they are unsatisfying, where something like 'resurrection' in the Christian tradition is reduced to some literal resuscitation of a human corpse. That completely misses the point. It shifts the focus away from the internal spirit to the external world of time and history. It makes it outside yourself. It leaves you separate and looking for it to come to you somehow to bridge that gap for you. You have to bridge that gap in yourself.

.

Yes! And it is interesting how Bourgeault interprets or "redefines" such notions (metaphysics) as the "Kingdom Within," The Mind of Christ, The Hard Parables of the "Master of Wisdom," Self-Emptying Love (kenosis), the Pointless Sacrifice, Jesus as Tantric Master, The Incarnation, The Passion, The Harrowing of Hell, The Way of The Heart etc.

 

IMO the person distraught with popular myths (religious or secular) and familiar with the "flat land" of dualism could benefit from what Cynthia Bourgeault has to say.

 

For anyone familiar with the influences of the Christian Myth will know how to read Cynthia without being "put off" by her chosen system of inquiry.

 

I credit Ms Bourgeault with inspiring my finding satisfying "paths beyond ego, beyond intellectually "knowing" just the facts.

 

I'm indebted to her challenging me to "taste" for myself, "to seek and to find."

 

Fascinating!

 

Completely. fascinating.

 

"Many paths lead from the foot of the mountain..." ~Ikkyu

[stryper]

 

 

“We really have to get going," Sam said. "Can we leave the car here and pick it up later?"

The monk said, "Does a dog have a Buddha nature?"

"Does a fish have a watertight asshole?" said Coyote.”

"You are wise" the monk replied.

― Christopher Moore, Coyote Blue

[asanerman]

 

 

“We really have to get going," Sam said. "Can we leave the car here and pick it up later?"

The monk said, "Does a dog have a Buddha nature?"

"Does a fish have a watertight asshole?" said Coyote.”

"You are wise" the monk replied.

― Christopher Moore, Coyote Blue

 

Styper,

 

You finally see the Light!

 

 

[Deva]

Came across some interesting articles by Robert M. Price on Buddhism:

 

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_bult_budd.htm

 

 

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_buddi.htm

 

 

I am particularly interested in his comparison of Mahayana Buddhism and Christianity.  I have seen it for myself the last five years in my study of Vajaryana Buddhism.  I could draw very close parallels - especially the idea of "merit" and the lama to a savior.  Most definitely the lama is a savior figure. There is also a cleansing of defilements or obscurations by a deity called Vajrasattva (also a savior figure) in a particular practice.  I was very much surprised to find it in Buddhism to the extent that it is. In fact I have even heard someone say "we must have a "relationship with Padmasambhava" (an 8th century Buddha).

 

 

So here we have a religion containing the features of crippling original sin, bankrupt and worthless selfhood, salvation by passive faith in the vicarious sufferings of a redeemer (actually a whole stable of them, as in the Catholic calendar of saints), and all of this derived from an infallible scripture, not from one's own cherished intuitions. What is this religion? Buddhism. Christianity. Take your pick. If you prefer something less complex, something more self-reliant, you can always find revamped, streamlined versions of either religion. But, as they stand, neither is all that much different from the other in broad outline.

 

I am not sure I entirely agree with this statement; "Original sin" in Christianity has a very specific meaning and I don't think that most forms of Christianity would hold with the idea of a "buddha nature" in everyone.  To xianity, we are bad all the way through!

 

I still find the story of the Buddha inspiring. He was dissatisfied with the Vedic religion of his time and struck out on his own to find his own answers.  Its really not unlike all of us here on this site. I find value in meditation of various kinds, I even like chanting mantras.  But, I spent 30 plus years extricating myself from this false idea of a redeemer and I don't intend to ever buy it again.

[Rev R]

There is no evidence to indicate the existence of a "Mahayana Doctrine". The closest thing that pops out in my mind is the common usage of Asvagosha's "The Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana" or the Lotus Sutra. 

 

Trust you own critique based on what you see directly and take Bob's broad brush with a grain of salt.