God Discovered!

[MagickMonkey]

As far back as we can tell, people have searched for God and failed. Those who came before us looked to various deities to save them and did so in vain. They saw agency and purpose in nature when there was none. They invented various fictional deities who they believed to have various powers, but the only powers these memes had was to hold back humanity. Our ancestors looked to their gods as a source of virtue and morality, but those gods were just as petty and amoral as the people who invented them. Their gods were only a source of division, wasted effort, and often times death.

 

It may seem as if the search for God has been fruitless, but unlike our predecessors, we can honestly say we have found God! God is not the god of the bible or the Koran. God is not in the pantheons of Rome, Greece, or Egypt. God is not the various gods of any preexisting theologies. After all our searching, we’ve come to find out that we were God all along.

 

Humanity is the only deity worthy of praise. We are the only hope for answered prayers. We are the only healers of the sick. We are the only ones that give us our daily bread. We have the only purpose - that which we give ourselves. We are the author of virtues and sins. Our will is the only will to be done. We’re neither omniscient nor omnipotent, but we are the highest power and greatest holder of knowledge. We are our only salvation. To say otherwise is blasphemy.

[MagickMonkey]

Of course, this is spiritual only in the metaphoric sense, but it has a spiritual feeling, at least to me. I'm sure the moderators will move it if they feel the need.

[Antlerman]

As far back as we can tell, people have searched for God and failed.

Of course people have failed to find God. Some haven't failed.

 

Those who came before us looked to various deities to save them and did so in vain.

Save them from what?

 

They saw agency and purpose in nature when there was none.

You know there is none? How?

 

They invented various fictional deities who they believed to have various powers, but the only powers these memes had was to hold back humanity.

Or to advance it. Both perspectives apply.

 

Our ancestors looked to their gods as a source of virtue and morality, but those gods were just as petty and amoral as the people who invented them. Their gods were only a source of division, wasted effort, and often times death.

Or part of what advanced our human civilization to higher levels of self-realization as a stage in our evolution. Gods played a role in our advancement of ourselves. Hardly a wasted effort. They are expressions of ourselves. Are we wasted effort?

 

It may seem as if the search for God has been fruitless, but unlike our predecessors, we can honestly say we have found God! God is not the god of the bible or the Koran. God is not in the pantheons of Rome, Greece, or Egypt. God is not the various gods of any preexisting theologies. After all our searching, we’ve come to find out that we were God all along.

Well, I agree with the last statement but somehow I don't think you mean it the way I do. You see this god as very much in line with the ancient Greek gods, except we are the masters of the universe, not those imaginary creatures. Right?

 

Humanity is the only deity worthy of praise. We are the only hope for answered prayers. We are the only healers of the sick. We are the only ones that give us our daily bread. We have the only purpose - that which we give ourselves. We are the author of virtues and sins. Our will is the only will to be done. We’re neither omniscient nor omnipotent, but we are the highest power and greatest holder of knowledge. We are our only salvation. To say otherwise is blasphemy.

Coming from what place in yourself? Your ego? Your arrogance? Any place but humility?

 

I do agree we are God, but not in the sense of being some masters of our own path through our technological genius. That's not being God. That's being an arrogant child.

 

So how is this spiritual to you?

[MagickMonkey]

I'll get around to answering you, Antlerman. Just to busy not to make a hurried response at the moment.

[stryper]

THE MONKEY LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jessie]

May I chip in? If not, just ignore my post.

 

Of course people have failed to find God. Some haven't failed.

 

Define god. And without proof of this god, have they really found him/her/it, or do they just claim to?

 

Save them from what?

 

Death. Disease. Disaster. 1st World Problems, Etc.

 

 

You know there is none? How?

 

We may as well assume there is none. There's no proof of otherwise. That's not to say there definitely is no purpose in nature. But what's the point of wishful thinking, if you simply don't know? A person may as well act on whatever information they DO have.

 

Or to advance it. Both perspectives apply.

 

Yes, you are correct. I think that largely religion has been more harmful than helpful, but that is just my opinion.

 

Or part of what advanced our human civilization to higher levels of self-realization as a stage in our evolution. Gods played a role in our advancement of ourselves. Hardly a wasted effort. They are expressions of ourselves. Are we wasted effort?

 

Did we need religion to do this?

 

Well, I agree with the last statement but somehow I don't think you mean it the way I do. You see this god as very much in line with the ancient Greek gods, except we are the masters of the universe, not those imaginary creatures. Right?

 

Don't understand what you're saying here, sorry.

 

Coming from what place in yourself? Your ego? Your arrogance? Any place but humility?

 

Is it arrogance to believe that the only thing that can make a difference in a person's life is themselves and other people, or is it just realistic based on the evidence we have?

 

I do agree we are God, but not in the sense of being some masters of our own path through our technological genius. That's not being God. That's being an arrogant child.

 

Guessing you're a pantheist/panentheist?

 

So how is this spiritual to you?

 

Sounds like Humanism to me.... which is a philosophy.

 

• Need to test beliefs – A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted by faith.
  
• Reason, evidence, scientific method – A commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence and scientific methods of inquiry in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.
  
• Fulfillment, growth, creativity – A primary concern with fulfillment, growth and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.
  
• Search for truth – A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.
  
• This life – A concern for this life (as opposed to an afterlife) and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.
  
• Ethics – A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.
  
• Building a better world – A conviction that with reason, an open exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.
  

[Antlerman]

Of course people have failed to find God. Some haven't failed.

 

Define god. And without proof of this god, have they really found him/her/it, or do they just claim to?

That was my point. MM states a blanket statement that no-one has ever found God, yet fails to recognize in any reasonable way how God is expressed, understood, or experienced the world over by many different peoples. I experience God every moment of every day on one level or another, quite often quite profoundly. Of course, what I mean by God obviously can't be what MM means, since he claims no one every experiences God. Maybe it's MM who has the limited understanding here?

 

You know there is none? How?

We may as well assume there is none. There's no proof of otherwise. That's not to say there definitely is no purpose in nature. But what's the point of wishful thinking, if you simply don't know? A person may as well act on whatever information they DO have.

We may assume there is none? People find purpose to life all the time. What sort of proof do you need? You think science will discover the 'purpose' particle? Or is meaning not a matter for proofs and evidences? Science can't say there is no purpose. That is not what science is for. That is a personal philosophy that says this, and as such.... where's your evidence? (just saying)

 

Or to advance it. Both perspectives apply.

 

Yes, you are correct. I think that largely religion has been more harmful than helpful, but that is just my opinion.

People take any organizing system of belief and project themselves into it. To blame or praise religion is to not face reality or take responsibility. We create heaven and hell. Not religion. Our religions, or systems of governance are expressions of ourselves.

 

Or part of what advanced our human civilization to higher levels of self-realization as a stage in our evolution. Gods played a role in our advancement of ourselves. Hardly a wasted effort. They are expressions of ourselves. Are we wasted effort?

 

Did we need religion to do this?

Apparently. We created it, and used it, and we got results. Could we have done it without that? To speculate is just ideological speculations. You would have to be able to demonstrate historically how societies without any religions or systems of religious symbols evolved without them, then to compare the relative progress of them compared to others. And I am not talking in the modern age of global communications. I'm talking early civilizations. Religious expression has been an integral part of human evolution, and to deny that or claim 'we would have been better of without it' is merely a claim of an ideologue. It's easy enough to say that from a position today, but it has no basis in historical reality.

 

Well, I agree with the last statement but somehow I don't think you mean it the way I do. You see this god as very much in line with the ancient Greek gods, except we are the masters of the universe, not those imaginary creatures. Right?

 

Don't understand what you're saying here, sorry.

Meaning the image of man projected in the Greek gods was one of the heroic ego. The rise of the power of man over that Great Mother who swallows us in death. Talk of man being the Mater of Destiny! smacks of that ego-based god structure.

 

Yes, I agree with being responsible, and I agree we need to shouldn't look to supernatural beings to deliver us. But no, I think being arrogant is the sure-fire way to destroy our own destinies. On the other hand the more we are aware of our own place in the world, the more humbling it is, and through that humility we arise in partnership with the world, not it's fucking masters.

[Antlerman]

Guessing you're a pantheist/panentheist?

Hard to put any labels on me. Panenthiest would work if I envision God in a dualistic way, much more so than theism or pantheism. But ultimately I understanding/experience things more from a nondualist view.

 

So how is this spiritual to you?

Sounds like Humanism to me.... which is a philosophy.

Yes, that's why I was asking MM why he felt this belonged in a forum about spirituality? It sounds more like self-worship to me.

[Jessie]

 

That was my point. MM states a blanket statement that no-one has ever found God, yet fails to recognize in any reasonable way how God is expressed, understood, or experienced the world over by many different peoples. I experience God every moment of every day on one level or another, quite often quite profoundly. Of course, what I mean by God obviously can't be what MM means, since he claims no one every experiences God. Maybe it's MM who has the limited understanding here?

 

Yeah. God can be described as many different things. Some people don't distinguish god from the universe itself. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. . . . I definitely can not say that the universe does not exist. Haha. I have a great deal of awe in regards to the universe, and part of that is because I do not know much about it. I would say I know less about it than the average person. I also, in my own way, revere life and my planet. But I don't think I see these things a spiritual so much as wondrous.

 

 

We may assume there is none? People find purpose to life all the time. What sort of proof do you need? You think science will discover the 'purpose' particle? Or is meaning not a matter for proofs and evidences? Science can't say there is no purpose. That is not what science is for. That is a personal philosophy that says this, and as such.... where's your evidence? (just saying)

 

Ah, I think we are talking about different things.

 

Firstly, I thought what was being discussed is the overall purpose of life, the universe, and everything (42). That is something we do not know and there may not even be any overall purpose. I do believe that we, as humans, can create our own purpose for our lives. And humans, being a part of nature, means that there can be a purpose to nature. So if that is all you were saying, then yes, I can agree. But I do not believe we will ever know if there is a divine purpose to everything.

 

And secondly, since we will probably never know if there is a divine purpose behind anything, I see no reason why we should act or believe as if there is, because there is no evidence for it. That doesn't mean that I am stating there is no divine purpose, just that I don't yet see any evidence for one. I feel that it is more honest to make a judgment based on current knowledge than to believe something on faith, or because I hope it is true. Faith is what burned me in the first place. Dealing with reality as we currently know it is a lot easier for me. I don't see myself ever returning to beliefs on the supernatural without concrete evidence.

 

 

People take any organizing system of belief and project themselves into it. To blame or praise religion is to not face reality or take responsibility. We create heaven and hell. Not religion. Our religions, or systems of governance are expressions of ourselves.

 

In the end, a religion can't do any harm without a human behind it. I just can't help remembering how deeply into it I was, though. I did not believe that the Bible was a collection of views from other humans, but from god himself. And that is dangerous. People sincerely believe that heaven & hell are not man-made. The fear of one and the hope of the other can cause a person, caused ME, to do something or be something that they otherwise wouldn't, and perhaps feel conflicted about, where their religion says one thing and they feel another. So yes, the religion requires human action, and humans are responsible for their actions... but ideas are powerful things sometimes. I think they should be acknowledged as powerful, and sometimes dangerous things and treated accordingly.... especially if, like Christianity, they are expressions of a more ancient culture and are having negative effects on the modern day.

 

Thinking about it, we discriminate against each other in other ways too. Race, nationality, gender. If religion didn't exist it is possible we may have found another way. In fact, as I recall, witch hunts were also spurned along by sexism and anti-semitism (at least in the case of the bubonic plague. People claimed Jews poisoned the lakes and wells).

 

 

Apparently. We created it, and used it, and we got results. Could we have done it without that? To speculate is just ideological speculations. You would have to be able to demonstrate historically how societies without any religions or systems of religious symbols evolved without them, then to compare the relative progress of them compared to others. And I am not talking in the modern age of global communications. I'm talking early civilizations. Religious expression has been an integral part of human evolution, and to deny that or claim 'we would have been better of without it' is merely a claim of an ideologue. It's easy enough to say that from a position today, but it has no basis in historical reality.

 

It's true. It would just be speculation. It's fun to speculate, though, so long as it is clear it may not be the truth. I have no idea if we would be better off now if religion (not only Christianity, but all religion) never existed.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p5jnqEyUs4

 

I'm just wondering if religion had never been dreamt up, would we really not have made any advancements in the human personality? I think we could have, but maybe that is naive of me? And some believe we are soft-wired for empathy.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I agree with being responsible, and I agree we need to shouldn't look to supernatural beings to deliver us. But no, I think being arrogant is the sure-fire way to destroy our own destinies. On the other hand the more we are aware of our own place in the world, the more humbling it is, and through that humility we arise in partnership with the world, not it's fucking masters.

 

 

(((Before I continue with what I personally believe, I just want to state that human worth is subjective. Some look at us as just another animal, sometimes better, often times lesser than other animals. Sometimes, it's as you say -- they believe we are He-Man. Masters of the fucking universe! Haha. But it is all opinion. There is no real "fact" in this discussion. Disclaimer out of the way . . . .)))

 

Well, from what we can currently judge, I think we are very advanced. That doesn't mean I think other creatures are worthless. Nor do I believe we should look to only our own interests either, because we are all interconnected. I don't think what's being said is that only human interests are important... but Monkey can speak for himself there. It isn't my view, though.

 

However, I don't believe that we humans need to come from a place of humility. Does a lion come from a place of humility when she downs a gazelle? Look at our accomplishments. We are not insignificant, and we are high-ranking organisms on this planet. I value myself over an insect, or a bird, or pretty much any organism. I do not think that is arrogance anymore than killing bacterium with antibiotics is arrogant. So long as we RESPECT other life, and be responsible about how we treat the planet, I don't see a problem with us viewing ourselves as superior. (Judging how I beg my boyfriend to catch spiders and release them instead of squashing them, I'd say I have more than my own interests at heart! haha! I could NEVER be a Jainist though.)

 

I do not see humility as a virtue, and honestly (off topic, on an individual basis). . . humility kind of bugs me a little. To have a low opinion of yourself even though you are great? I don't know. I don't think it's something to strive to for. You should assess yourself fairly. Having low self-esteem when you shouldn't is comparable to having high self-esteem when you're really not all that awesome. Despite their subjective nature, when a person's self-worth and behavior do not match up in my view, both annoy me. Humility annoys me especially, since I've come from a place where you have to lower yourself before god. I leave the prostrating to the religious.

[Vigile]

Not the right spirituality, not one of us.

 

C'mon AM, you sound like an xian here whose version of the orthodoxy has been challenged.

[Antlerman]

I do not see humility as a virtue, and honestly (off topic, on an individual basis). . . humility kind of bugs me a little. To have a low opinion of yourself even though you are great? I don't know. I don't think it's something to strive to for. You should assess yourself fairly. Having low self-esteem when you shouldn't is comparable to having high self-esteem when you're really not all that awesome. Despite their subjective nature, when a person's self-worth and behavior do not match up in my view, both annoy me. Humility annoys me especially, since I've come from a place where you have to lower yourself before god. I leave the prostrating to the religious.

There's a lot in the rest of your post I'm greatly desiring to respond to! It was very good and it inspires me. I only have a few minutes to respond to this though. Humility as how I speak of it is hardly low self esteem. It is a recognition that what we imagine about ourselves as somehow masters of the world is in fact hardly that! It is not to feel poorly about ourselves at all! It is to properly place in context that we are part of something far larger than ourselves, and as such to realize our place within it as a unique and beautiful jewel, shining as one amongst thousands and thousands of diamonds. That to me is to elevate our beauty through an acknowledgement of our place in the vast beauty of all that is. That, is humility. Not beating our chest saying oh what a piece of shit am I. That's a false humility. It's ugly and an insult to beauty itself.

 

I'll respond to the rest of your post tomorrow as time permits.

 

 

Vigle.... WTF?

[Vigile]

Vigle.... WTF?

 

I'm sure I'm going to regret responding here, but it appears to me that MM presented his version of spirituality and you then proceeded to respond by challenging each of his ideas. If we are going to have a spirituality section of this forum where we cannot criticize the spiritual beliefs of others, then the mod of that forum probably shouldn't be arguing that a member's definition of spirituality is egotistical because it has a human focus. When you do, it appears you are engaging in the same true Scotsman fallacy that xians of various denominations engage in. That's my opinion.

[Antlerman]

Vigle.... WTF?

 

I'm sure I'm going to regret responding here, but it appears to me that MM presented his version of spirituality and you then proceeded to respond by challenging each of his ideas. If we are going to have a spirituality section of this forum where we cannot criticize the spiritual beliefs of others, then the mod of that forum probably shouldn't be arguing that a member's definition of spirituality is egotistical because it has a human focus. When you do, it appears you are engaging in the same true Scotsman fallacy that xians of various denominations engage in. That's my opinion.

He isn't being serious, and my response was to challenge his simply calling that 'spiritual', while he himself explicitly recognized it probably didn't belong in this forum as it technically isn't spiritual. In his own words, "Of course, this is spiritual only in the metaphoric sense, but it has a spiritual feeling, at least to me. I'm sure the moderators will move it if they feel the need." He has a history of chiding anything spiritual, so I thought to play along with it to a point to see if a good conversation could actually ensue before I just moved it out of here.

 

As far as you accusing me of being like a Christian, that is absurd. I respect many paths to the spiritual, as it says in my signature line now. I asked him straight out how he considers this to be spiritual. Perhaps what he is saying is in fact spiritual, I was hoping to challenge him to see if it might not fit this forum. But I know MM. I'm simply saying the things he speaks of sound more about human triumph, than anything that can be considered legitimately to fit the word spiritual. That word does have meaning, and I think if someone says something like "I find making lots of money to be spiritual", I'm afraid I'd have to say really no understanding of how that is something else, and how spirituality is actually a lot more than just 'feel goodness'.

 

I have to say, your response that you perceive me as narrow is surprising to say the least. You should know me better than that by now and give me the benefit of doubt.

[Rev R]

A lioness comes from a place of hunger when she takes a gazelle. When there is no hunger, her skill at the hunt stays hidden. This is what humility means.

[HappyChef]

Throws Monkey a banana....Welcome back man!

[MagickMonkey]

As far back as we can tell, people have searched for God and failed.

Of course people have failed to find God. Some haven't failed.

 

Those who came before us looked to various deities to save them and did so in vain.

Save them from what?

 

They saw agency and purpose in nature when there was none.

You know there is none? How?

 

They invented various fictional deities who they believed to have various powers, but the only powers these memes had was to hold back humanity.

Or to advance it. Both perspectives apply.

 

Our ancestors looked to their gods as a source of virtue and morality, but those gods were just as petty and amoral as the people who invented them. Their gods were only a source of division, wasted effort, and often times death.

Or part of what advanced our human civilization to higher levels of self-realization as a stage in our evolution. Gods played a role in our advancement of ourselves. Hardly a wasted effort. They are expressions of ourselves. Are we wasted effort?

 

It may seem as if the search for God has been fruitless, but unlike our predecessors, we can honestly say we have found God! God is not the god of the bible or the Koran. God is not in the pantheons of Rome, Greece, or Egypt. God is not the various gods of any preexisting theologies. After all our searching, we’ve come to find out that we were God all along.

Well, I agree with the last statement but somehow I don't think you mean it the way I do. You see this god as very much in line with the ancient Greek gods, except we are the masters of the universe, not those imaginary creatures. Right?

 

Humanity is the only deity worthy of praise. We are the only hope for answered prayers. We are the only healers of the sick. We are the only ones that give us our daily bread. We have the only purpose - that which we give ourselves. We are the author of virtues and sins. Our will is the only will to be done. We’re neither omniscient nor omnipotent, but we are the highest power and greatest holder of knowledge. We are our only salvation. To say otherwise is blasphemy.

Coming from what place in yourself? Your ego? Your arrogance? Any place but humility?

 

I do agree we are God, but not in the sense of being some masters of our own path through our technological genius. That's not being God. That's being an arrogant child.

 

So how is this spiritual to you?

 

 

Answering this all at once sent me to quote-tag hell, so I'm going to break up my response.

[MagickMonkey]

Ok, christmas business (along with neurotic-pregnant-wife-wanting-chores-done business) done! Let me take a crack at this.

 

 

 

 

As far back as we can tell, people have searched for God and failed.

 

 

Of course people have failed to find God. Some haven't failed.

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone has found any god in any non-metaphoric sense. I suppose we could argue this ad-nauseum. I see in later responses questions about the definition of god. I'll just leave it as a god being some super-being. Yeah, it's vague, but concepts of god are to varied to really nail down something specific.

[MagickMonkey]

 

 

Those who came before us looked to various deities to save them and did so in vain.

 

 

Save them from what?

 

 

 

 

Whatever we face. Jessie's answers were good. Certainly, we won't save ourselves from eventual death, but we can save ourselves from miserable lives.

 

 

EDIT: I'm fixing the quote tags to give Antlerman proper attribution. I'll do the same to following posts.

[MagickMonkey]

 

 

They saw agency and purpose in nature when there was none.

 

 

You know there is none? How?

 

 

 

 

There is no evidence of any purpose in nature. In fact, in the absolute sense of the term, there may be no purpose at all - even our own purposes. It seems more and more like our concept of will is just a story told to the conscious parts of our brains by the rest of the pieces of our brains. Our brains do whatever they're bound to do according to the laws of physics, and our conscious minds are given a load of crap about how we intended to do what we did. But, it seems that conscious animals have the best approximation of purpose there is. Everything else (or approximations of purpose aside, everything) is simply a sequence of causes and effects.

[MagickMonkey]

 

 

They invented various fictional deities who they believed to have various powers, but the only powers these memes had was to hold back humanity.

 

 

Or to advance it. Both perspectives apply.

 

 

 

 

Ok, perhaps it's overreaching to say that religion is detrimental in every way and that no benefits from religion can be found. However, that seems to be the net effect that religion is detrimental. Time and time again, our understanding of the universe and our ability to act on such understanding has been held back by religion. It seems to me that rather than being a trait that is directly selected for, religiosity (is there a better noun for this?) is a trait that is a side effect of our psychology stemming from a time when our ancestors were not cognitively equipped to understand agency and lack thereof. In any case, I think mankind has outgrown it.

[MagickMonkey]

 

 

Our ancestors looked to their gods as a source of virtue and morality, but those gods were just as petty and amoral as the people who invented them. Their gods were only a source of division, wasted effort, and often times death.

 

 

Or part of what advanced our human civilization to higher levels of self-realization as a stage in our evolution. Gods played a role in our advancement of ourselves. Hardly a wasted effort. They are expressions of ourselves. Are we wasted effort?

 

 

 

 

They are expressions of ourselves, but unfortunately, the people who believed in these gods did not realize this is what they were. Rather than see them as fictional expressions of ourselves, they regarded them as real beings who's rules must be followed.

[MagickMonkey]

 

 

It may seem as if the search for God has been fruitless, but unlike our predecessors, we can honestly say we have found God! God is not the god of the bible or the Koran. God is not in the pantheons of Rome, Greece, or Egypt. God is not the various gods of any preexisting theologies. After all our searching, we’ve come to find out that we were God all along.

 

 

Well, I agree with the last statement but somehow I don't think you mean it the way I do. You see this god as very much in line with the ancient Greek gods, except we are the masters of the universe, not those imaginary creatures. Right?

 

 

 

 

I didn't get what you were saying at first, but I understood after reading your following posts. But yes, my statement is an idolization of humankind.

[MagickMonkey]

 

 

Humanity is the only deity worthy of praise. We are the only hope for answered prayers. We are the only healers of the sick. We are the only ones that give us our daily bread. We have the only purpose - that which we give ourselves. We are the author of virtues and sins. Our will is the only will to be done. We’re neither omniscient nor omnipotent, but we are the highest power and greatest holder of knowledge. We are our only salvation. To say otherwise is blasphemy.

 

 

Coming from what place in yourself? Your ego? Your arrogance? Any place but humility?

 

 

I do agree we are God, but not in the sense of being some masters of our own path through our technological genius. That's not being God. That's being an arrogant child.

 

 

So how is this spiritual to you?

 

 

 

Coming from the fact that we are the only ones with the potential to act in our self interest and the fact that we do so. We are certainly not the masters of our universe, but we are, to some degree, the masters of our own local environment. Metaphorically, we're not just God, but we're also Satan. But it seems as if we're exorcising that evil spirit from us. When we thing about how bad the world is today, we need only to look at were we came from to see that as bad as things are, they are generally improving. We're no longer bound by kin selection. Be might fight against distant nations, but at least we're no longer in small tribes waging war against neighboring tribes like chimpanzees. It's not hard to see a time when, as a whole, humankind works towards the benefit of humankind - not just individual for individual, clan for clan, or nation for nation.

 

 

To me, this is spiritual in the sense that it engages the parts of my mind that feel spiritual. At the time I wrote the op, it gave me the same spiritual feelings that religion once gave me.

[MagickMonkey]

Of course people have failed to find God. Some haven't failed.

 

Define god. And without proof of this god, have they really found him/her/it, or do they just claim to?

That was my point. MM states a blanket statement that no-one has ever found God, yet fails to recognize in any reasonable way how God is expressed, understood, or experienced the world over by many different peoples. I experience God every moment of every day on one level or another, quite often quite profoundly. Of course, what I mean by God obviously can't be what MM means, since he claims no one every experiences God. Maybe it's MM who has the limited understanding here?

 

 

Or perhaps I am simply not as loose with the term as you are. Not that there is anything wrong with your usage of the term. I think it is fair to say that you're using it differently than I. I tend to like neat and tidy abstractions, but of course, with a word like god, there's a continuum of what counts as god and what doesn't. In general, I think there has to be a continuum of how strictly defined any term is. Strict abstractions, unfortunately, overly restrict freedom of thought and expression, and overly-loose abstractions risk not carrying any meaning at all. Some continuum in between is needed, and I think we fall on that continuum at points to distant for us to easily converse, especially in regard to religion. To whatever extent I have a limited understanding here, perhaps it stems from from this difference in how we use language.

[Antlerman]

To me, this is spiritual in the sense that it engages the parts of my mind that feel spiritual. At the time I wrote the op, it gave me the same spiritual feelings that religion once gave me.

Very well then, I accept that as valid. I'll put together a good response for discussions points with you later.