Drugs And Spiritual Experience

[Noggy]

Hello,

 

When this topic was originally in my head, I was specifically thinking of psychoactive drugs and meditative practices, but I'm going to extend this to all spiritual practices and rituals that don't fall under the label of "meditation".

 

Q:

 

What is your religions/spiritualities outlook on psychoactive drugs? Do you agree/disagree? Do you believe that some drugs can be helpful in a spiritual experience? Do you believe in drug-induced spiritual experiences? Do you view drugs as a shortcut, or a way of cheating, an illusion, or something else entirely?

 

Cheers,

Nogs

[Zephie]

I've heard of certain religions using drugs as a pathway or assistance to reaching a certain spiritual state (not vague at all am I?). I don't think it's cheating but then again I try to stay away from anything illegal b/c knowing my luck I'd get caught.

[Legion]

I prefer it natural.

 

But a kick start every once in a while is not so bad either I think.

[ConureDelSol]

I think any "spiritual experiences" that might be a result of drugs is a purely psychological event.

 

In the event of meditation, I have no problem with drugs being used to help relax or make oneself more aware of their surroundings.

[Zephie]

I think any "spiritual experiences" that might be a result of drugs is a purely psychological event.

 

In the event of meditation, I have no problem with drugs being used to help relax or make oneself more aware of their surroundings.

 

Do you remember the arguement against drugs in the bible having to do with the word "phama-something or other"? I could see how the spiritual experiences as a result of drugs would be a psychological event but aren't most spiritual experiences the same? Granted, I don't have the education to back up that claim so....

 

I kind of agree with Legion that a kick start isn't bad either. I mean, think about it, churches use all sorts of things to kickstart spiritual experiences-lights, music, teaching, etc. So I guess the use of drugs wouldn't be too different. Kind of gets me thinking about the first time I had my tarot read...I was good and tipsy but it was the best reading ever.

[Denyoz]

Do you believe that some drugs can be helpful in a spiritual experience?

 

Yes

Do you believe in drug-induced spiritual experiences?

 

Yes

Do you view drugs as a shortcut, or a way of cheating, an illusion, or something else entirely?

 

I think any experience is beneficial whether or not drugs are involved. I don't have a problem with drugs, only with addiction.

[par4dcourse]

It's a good excuse to catch a buzz, and call it a "spiritual experience." 'Shrooms will make you see god, and he's got a neat light show.

[lunaticheathen]

I have used drugs as a "kickstart", as Legion put it, to attain spiritual experiences. The first time was actually not on purpose either.

 

Fun story about that. I had a free weekend in college with no major assignments due that monday, and had the opportunity to try shrooms. I figured, why the hell not, and gave it a whirl. I later realized, they had kicked in 30 minutes prior to my being conscious of it - and I was worried they weren't working at first!

 

I attribute this to my steady practice of daily meditation and weekly trance work in ritual that I had started, on my own (and during that, I was always sober). The shrooms seemed to work on the same pathways in my brain, and I didn't notice the "high", because it was a high I had cultivated on my own, without any outside chemical aid. So, I do not beleive one needs drugs at all - but I personally know they can be an aid. Since I did go farther and deeper with the aid of psychedelics, I can now travel there without them. The main difference, is that on your own, it's work.

 

Still, I'm not opposed to trying other psychedelics, especially those riitually used by shamans in South America and the like. Though I would prefer to use those in the traditional setting, with a shaman who knows what he's doing. I'm not quite one of those Erowid psychonauts who contrive Ayahuasca out of what they can find, try it in their apartment, only to trash it and not remember enough to be useful.

[lyall]

I think any "spiritual experiences" that might be a result of drugs is a purely psychological event.

 

In the event of meditation, I have no problem with drugs being used to help relax or make oneself more aware of their surroundings.

 

Do you remember the arguement against drugs in the bible having to do with the word "phama-something or other"? I could see how the spiritual experiences as a result of drugs would be a psychological event but aren't most spiritual experiences the same? Granted, I don't have the education to back up that claim so....

 

I kind of agree with Legion that a kick start isn't bad either. I mean, think about it, churches use all sorts of things to kickstart spiritual experiences-lights, music, teaching, etc. So I guess the use of drugs wouldn't be too different. Kind of gets me thinking about the first time I had my tarot read...I was good and tipsy but it was the best reading ever.

 

That was the greek word "Pharmakia" which translates as scorcery..

 

Some drugs have been known to release the astral body thus aiding projection.

 

By the way, Zephie, happy birthday !

[Antlerman]

It's a good excuse to catch a buzz, and call it a "spiritual experience." 'Shrooms will make you see god, and he's got a neat light show.

You are so in the closet wanting to come out, aren't you?

[par4dcourse]

It's a good excuse to catch a buzz, and call it a "spiritual experience." 'Shrooms will make you see god, and he's got a neat light show.

You are so in the closet wanting to come out, aren't you?

[blackpudd1n]

Yes, drugs can give you a spiritual experience. Spiritual enough to land in a psych ward, or to actually find yourself on the "other side" permanently.

 

Seriously, I just wouldn't go there. I wish I hadn't in the past. You just don't know how any particular drug will affect you, positively OR negatively.

 

Some people are just not able to cope with drugs, and there's only one way to find out, really. It's Russian Roulette.

 

Personally, I wish I'd taken a tour of a psych ward prior to ever touching a drug. it wouldn't have changed the fact that I have bipolar, but it could have possibly prevented me from doing drugs, which really fucked me up when I did them, and I wasn't even that frequent a user. Half a cone and I would be paranoid for 3 months.

[Antlerman]

Yes, drugs can give you a spiritual experience. Spiritual enough to land in a psych ward, or to actually find yourself on the "other side" permanently.

 

Seriously, I just wouldn't go there. I wish I hadn't in the past. You just don't know how any particular drug will affect you, positively OR negatively.

 

Some people are just not able to cope with drugs, and there's only one way to find out, really. It's Russian Roulette.

 

Personally, I wish I'd taken a tour of a psych ward prior to ever touching a drug. it wouldn't have changed the fact that I have bipolar, but it could have possibly prevented me from doing drugs, which really fucked me up when I did them, and I wasn't even that frequent a user. Half a cone and I would be paranoid for 3 months.

You raise a really good and partially valid point here. Thanks for bringing it up. The use of psychedelics in spiritual practice is ancient, and valid. But there is a huge 'however' attached to it. The use of these in ritual practice were closely monitored. They were for the initiates who underwent spiritual training to gain some inner understanding of what happens in spiritual ecstasy before they undertook such a journey. They had to be approved to do so first. The uninitiated simply traveling off into the 'astral planes' might not know how to then process what they encounter there.

 

Here's the point. Psychedelics take you to where meditation takes you, but not quite as deep and as far as meditation itself does. I practice meditation on a daily basis and I can tell you, to the valid point you made here, that anything that takes you into those spaces, be that meditation or psychedelics, has to be done by someone with a relatively stable psyche. I would never recommend someone who suffers from depression to meditate, nor someone with schizophrenia. In fact it could be very bad for them to do so. Their minds in those conditions being exposed to the deep inner landscapes could very likely get the wrong messages to their conscious minds and either go crazy or do harm to themselves or others. What you are exposed to in there has to be processed with a relatively stable mind that can integrate those messages that the deep subconscious mind holds. (To be technical about it, your conscious mind becomes exposed to both the archaic-unconscious mind and the emergent-unconscious mind. The archaic being our deep primal evolutionary history in deep time, the emergent being the yet unrealized potentials from the ground-unconscious that exists in all things).

 

There are reasons I can see now why you have various religious schools that guard these 'inner mysteries', and why you have to undergo initiation rites and training first. My early experiences in meditation exposed to me things where I came out of it saying to myself how I could certainly see where someone who thought in mythological terms would see these as literal encounters with the gods. That's one thing if they do and that's fine for them where they are at, but I try to imagine someone who's mind is actually unstable experiencing that. This is why I say you are partially right. It's powerful and useful for those who can handle it, but not good for those who have mental health issues.

 

Last point to add, I personally see meditation both more powerful, and more stable for me. I don't like having a chemical in my body taking control bringing these experiences on for me. In meditation, I am in control of the whole experience through an act of my own will, but I do not slight those who use these properly.

[blackpudd1n]

 

 

You made some very interesting points, Antlerman.

 

The way you described the ancient use of experience enhancers, with the associated training, well, I can't really say that I have a major issue with that. But I do have a huge problem with the way drugs are used today, so recklessly, without any real way of knowing what exactly is in them. I have felt and seen the impact first-hand myself.

 

I have never liked meditation. I have tried it, and I know that it helps a lot of people. But I've been lost in my own mind before, for a good two, if not three years. It's too scary to me. I do not feel as though I am gaining control, but rather losing it when I have attempted meditation in the past. I treasure reality above all else now. For the same reason I would never undergo hypnosis. Like a former psychiatrist used to say, my mind is "fragile". It must be handled with proper care. And it can go to very spiritual places all on it's own and without my bidding or desire, if I do not control it.

 

My mind is different. I had to learn how to keep it focused and grounded in the "here and now", reign it in. And truth be told, I'm still learning how to do so. At least now, I get a suspicion when it's connecting dots where it shouldn't; there's a very definite feeling associated with it. At this stage, that is when I go and talk to my fiancee about whatever idea is in my head. He is very rational, stable, and logical, and brutally honest. He helps me to realise that I'm going off on tangents that aren't there. I hope, though, that in a few more years I will be able to do it myself. Sometimes I can; well, more than I give myself credit for. But sometimes I miss something early-on.

 

It makes me wonder what it's like to have a lot of control over your mind, where you don't have to worry about stuff like this. It's been a long time since I felt like I had that sort of control.

[Antlerman]

 

You made some very interesting points, Antlerman.

 

The way you described the ancient use of experience enhancers, with the associated training, well, I can't really say that I have a major issue with that. But I do have a huge problem with the way drugs are used today, so recklessly, without any real way of knowing what exactly is in them. I have felt and seen the impact first-hand myself.

Yes, I should have stated that explicitly that what I was referring to is distinctly different than a recreational drug use of "getting high". It was specifically used as part of a religious practice for a specific goal of opening the mind to higher truth. I can't possibly image a drug addict being anywhere near on the same level as someone on a mystical path.

 

I have never liked meditation. I have tried it, and I know that it helps a lot of people. But I've been lost in my own mind before, for a good two, if not three years. It's too scary to me. I do not feel as though I am gaining control, but rather losing it when I have attempted meditation in the past. I treasure reality above all else now.

For me I took to it like a duck to water. It's sort of like I've been crossing the desert to finally hit the Ocean and dove in deep and far like it was home to me. Without if for me personally, that desert was having so many thoughts and insights, but no really centering and grounding of it within me. Mediation for me makes all of that real now. To me, it is though that for myself that I find reality and truly am able to treasure it, like a child unencumbered by all our adult neurosis that distract us from the pure experience of the world. It really is an individual thing.

 

For the same reason I would never undergo hypnosis. Like a former psychiatrist used to say, my mind is "fragile". It must be handled with proper care. And it can go to very spiritual places all on it's own and without my bidding or desire, if I do not control it.

And that's great. Everyone can have spiritual experience without necessary going into a practice of meditation. Just going for a walk in nature can open you to that, and that is wonderful and important to do and experience as being human. Meditation is really more an intense practice of putting yourself into the path of those 'moments', that it's not as random an occurrence. I can tell you for myself, it's like every day swimming into Infinite Ocean, where nature and you become one, in body and in mind. But again, it's my path where I am at, and someone has to be ready for that. I've been looking for this for 30 years, so its no wonder why I moved so quickly into this recently. For yourself, you are on your path and doing what is working to give you the stability and appreciation of life as you deserve. By all means follow what offers you what you need, when you need it.

 

My mind is different. I had to learn how to keep it focused and grounded in the "here and now", reign it in.

For me meditation does just that, but again I'm different. The side benefit of it for me is to make my mind incredibly more clear, like I never even realized just how clouded it was with noise and debris. The result of that is where it actually felt like my IQ shot up 15 points, but in reality its really just accessing what was there, like cleaning the dust off the windshield of your car after years of looking through the dirt. That results in a physical calmness in my body, and my anxiety levels dropped right out the bottom. I feel my mind much more present in the world, which results in improved relationships and the appreciation of everything around me. I was stable before, but carrying a whole bunch of baggage I didn't even realize I had until it was suddenly gone. Truth be told though, I don't know that I was necessarily ready for this years ago. I had to walk a different course to build to this now.

 

It makes me wonder what it's like to have a lot of control over your mind, where you don't have to worry about stuff like this. It's been a long time since I felt like I had that sort of control.

Wow. Yeah, as I said even before this for me I didn't feel out of control, but in hindsight this is far better. And it is only improving. It's not a linear path, but one of ascending spirals where old mind-habits come back, but with a new higher perspective on them. I am still me, just learning new abilities and ways of knowing and understanding my own mind as opposed to be sucked into the swirling vortex of thought as a participant in the grand ride. I now see all those as processes of my mind like those of the body without being embedded in them out of control. Think of it like telling your hand to move. Same thing with the mind. It's just learning how to first see it for what it is, then learning how to work with it.

[blackpudd1n]

 

 

For those who practice meditation effectively, I imagine it must be like some sort of oasis. I deal with my overactive mind by feeding it, keeping it preoccupied with my studies and other interests. If I don't, it just gets destructive. It has a voracious appetite.

 

I'm sorry I can't write anymore at this point; I must head to bed, I'm finally ready for sleep!

[Antlerman]

 

For those who practice meditation effectively, I imagine it must be like some sort of oasis.

For me personally its more towards a specific goal which is transformation. It's like getting a formal education changes how you look at the world. It's just that this goes beyond mere head knowledge. There are two basic types of meditation though: concentratative, and insight or awareness meditation. For the former, it is as you describe a temporary oasis from the rest of the 'normal' world. You go into it focusing on a single object and learn to control the mind and it can have an incredible calming effect. But when you leave it you go back to the world you came from. In insight meditation - which taking psychedelic drugs would be comparable, you gain a new perspective on yourself and the nature of reality itself. Through this practice you actually evolve or grow your consciousness itself, much like the stages of growth from childhood to adulthood, except beyond that into the reaches of higher consciousness itself. The result of that is an entirely new mind in the world. Transformation, and not a reprieve or an oasis.

 

I'm curious to know what was your practice of meditation that you mentioned?

 

I deal with my overactive mind by feeding it, keeping it preoccupied with my studies and other interests. If I don't, it just gets destructive. It has a voracious appetite.

Destructive in what way, if I may ask and its not too personal? I try to relate that my mind if not controlled can turn neurotic. I develop all sorts of sideways ways of thinking or expressing thought, but not what I'd call destructive except to inner peace.

[lunaticheathen]

Of course not everyone using drugs is going to have a mystical experience, nor will everyone who takes them looking for one, will attain one. I first stumbled on it, but I'm not the average person.

 

Since then, I use psychedelics (rarely) with the full intention of having these experiences. I plan, prepare, and set aside "holy time" for this. I do see the point in ancient traditions basically screening innitiates for these experiences - I am content with the fact that I know it's effective for me. It's not effective for everyone, and I would never think or push a "one size fits all" approach to spirituality. In fact, I had a boyfriend once, who I knew was very unstable, and I told him he really shouldn't try any psychedelics. He was three steps away from the madhouse as it was.

 

I'm well aware that psychedelics require a strong mind, and a strong will, to have any use. I'm one of a very VERY few that actually sees them as spiritual tools, for real. I've known some people to say so, only to go off the deep end, and end up partying, only to end up with the vaguest excuse for a "lesson." That's not my intention. I ritualize it all pretty hard.

 

That being said, I rarely use any substances in ritual. Most of the time, it's just me, sober, inducing trance and dream states, or just praying/praising my gods. Most days, I'm pretty boring!

[Noggy]

I think I've mentioned this before, but someone once said to me that the journey of enlightenment (they definitely didn't know a lot about what they were saying) is akin to climbing a long mountain. Psychedelics, used properly, is like a helicopter that shoots you up the mountain and gets you to almost the top, and then shoots you back down again. Almost a kensho-type experience. I definitely see this.

 

@pudd1n, I'm sorry about your mind bugs , I've never experienced strong non-induced mind things, but I have been very very close to the people who do. Take care of yourself, and don't do anything too rash. I would agree that drugs are definitely used improperly. But I don't believe that the ONLY use of drugs is for a spiritual experience, thats the cool part about them. There is a drug for everything. And the only reason your body reacts to those drugs is because they create a drug that is identical or very very similar within themselves, you are just basically overloading those recepters by taking drugs. Purity is very important, and very hard to discern due to the way our government handles these substances.

 

I think its interesting that some people have come out to be a bit unhappy about the non spiritual use of drugs, and of course I may be generalizing, and its probably much more complex than just the word "unhappy". But it seems to me that drugs do many different things, they are tools. You can use them in whatever way you want. Is it wrong to partake in alcohol for pleasure? Or desert? Then why not LSD? You can take a drug hedonistically and then it turns spiritual, or the other way around, or just one or the other. I don't think any of these things are bad. The only way that a drug can be bad is if it harms, and there are thousands of more uses that drugs have, than to harm.

[lunaticheathen]

I have no issue with using drugs recreationally, if it's in a responsible manner, meaning, doesn't hurt anyone else. Believe me, I've gone through my hedonistic days with a variety of substances, and I don't regret any of them (ok, I regret the xanax, but that's very different).

 

My issue is with the not-so-truthful people who claim to take a substance for a spiritual experience, but just want an excuse to get fucked up. If you want to get fucked up, say so, I won't judge you. But don't lie, and don't co-opt spiritual rituals using entheogens just to get your jollies, it's disrespectful.

 

I do what I do with entheogens these days, because that's where I'm at. I've partied with them, but that's not me any longer. If I want to kick back, a beer and a joint are enough. I don't judge what others do to unwind or have fun, I just prefer honesty.

[Rev R]

I think I've mentioned this before, but someone once said to me that the journey of enlightenment (they definitely didn't know a lot about what they were saying) is akin to climbing a long mountain. Psychedelics, used properly, is like a helicopter that shoots you up the mountain and gets you to almost the top, and then shoots you back down again. Almost a kensho-type experience. I definitely see this.

 

Noggy, have you ever talked to a fella named Brad Warner?

[blackpudd1n]

Destructive in what way, if I may ask and its not too personal? I try to relate that my mind if not controlled can turn neurotic. I develop all sorts of sideways ways of thinking or expressing thought, but not what I'd call destructive except to inner peace.

 

My mind speeds up. I have bipolar, and I am a rapid cycler; my mind wants stimulation. Feeding it with stimulation that is healthy for it, like studying, slows it down. Boredom will leave it looking for stimulation to feed it. It will take whatever it can get- even the news, or all the pretty things and lights and people at a shopping centre. It will encourage me to be reckless in its hunt for more stimulation, more excitement. It has made me go for drives for hours in the middle of the night at high speeds in an unregistered car. It wants to meet new people with reckless abandon. It has no thought for danger or consequences; it just wants more. Suddenly I am having spiritual experiences, standing right on the edge of a cliff in the moonlight, calling the ancestors across the ocean. I am one with the night, I am free, untouchable, invincible. I am superhuman, convinced I can do superhuman things. Not good, when standing on a cliff-face. Left unchecked, I am a danger to myself, my reputation, and others. At this point, I need to sleep. I need to be brought down to reality again. My mind will only continue to speed faster. The only way to bring me back down at this point is through the use of anti-psychotics.

 

Sometimes my mind will speed up at such a rapid rate, and will go so fast, it literally feels like it is on fire. I cannot even catch a single thought; cannot string a sentence together; I cannot move; and it takes all of my concentration to say "mind... fire... Seroquel... now!" It really does feel like my brain is burning. It is physically painful. I need a good dose of the anti-psychotic. Normally, I take 25mg and it will knock me out for at least 12 hours. In this state, I take 300mg, and I hope for at least 12 hours sleep, but I'll often only get 10 hours. My mind is powerful in this state. If I am not asleep in half an hour of taking 300mg, I will go up to 500mg; if I still am not asleep, that is when an ambulance needs to be called, and I probably need to go higher with the anti-psychotics, or have a different one, to douse the fire in my mind. I also know that if I reach 500mg, and I am still not knocked out, I need monitoring. I need my mood-stabilisers checked, because they may have stopped being effective. And I most likely will be hospitalised while they sort out my medication, to keep me safe.

 

So, for me, spiritual experiences are a sign that I am unwell, because risky behaviour is associated with those experiences. Rationality and objectivity, and exercising those, help me to stay in the here and now. Atheism helps me to control my chaotic, wayward mind; but all forms of spirituality, mysticism, and religion are dangerous to it. They make me ignore the warning signs, believing that I am being enlightened. And acting bizarrely, too- I've talked to rocks, believing that they were living organisms with spirits attached, getting agitated when a rock got kicked by someone and having to go find it and apologise to it, and worse, being bereft for the rock spirit's hurt feelings.

 

I'm curious to know what was your practice of meditation that you mentioned?

 

Nothing like what you do. It was meant to be a relaxing exercise each time, a way of learning to still your own mind. I tried quite a few different ways of doing it, but it always had the opposite effect on me- I'd end up agitated. Same thing with breathing exercises. In the end, I told them to leave me the fuck alone, not to talk to me about that shit, they needed more originality than their textbooks, and found a better way of quieting my mind- distraction. When I am not tired, I study. When I am tired, and my mind is overactive, I have a boxset of DVD's from an old show that I lose myself in. For some reason this particular show is able to really engrosse me- I think it is because it has very intelligent humour, and some of the side jokes are rather subtle. It ends up focusing and quieting my mind after a couple of hours.

[Antlerman]

Wow, thank you for sharing this with me. That was very enlightening to hear this from your experiences with this. It is helping to expand my appreciation and understanding for what you have to deal with and process. You sound as if you have found a sort of balancing act, and I certainly appreciate why you have come to what you need to to find that for yourself. I'm going to have to process this some more, but to be sure it will be in my mind. I don't have exposure to hearing this firsthand as you have be so generous to share. I agree, for you meditation is not the right thing. I'll share some thoughts later with you, but for now thanks for sharing this.

[Tealeaf]

I don't think there is anything "unnatural" about the use of drugs. They are physical products of the universe, and so is the body and thus the mind. Furthermore, it's not the drugs themselves, but how they modify and interact with systems already present in the brain. Spirituality attained through meditation or drugs is one in the same to me.

 

I also do find getting "fuck up" in certain situations to be spiritual in itself. As others have stated, a lot of time you have no idea what you might get with drugs. This has two sides to it. On the one hand - if you aren't strong of mind - an unnexpected experience may be too much and could be dangerous. On the other, if you are strong of mind, the unknown may indeed be a worthy experience to be had.

 

I've had my own forms of meditiation for my entire life as well as having experimented with some prescribed forms. I've never been religious so my own (what I would later find to be termed "spirituality") has always been of me and for me. I have a strong mind. Sometimes so strong to the point where I may 'need' a "fucked up" experience to truly show me something I could not have already come to in my own way. This is a hard approach to get even people close to me to understand. Regardless of what anyone else may think, some of the most "fucked up" experiences I've had with combinations of substances have been of the greatest insight to me. The only regrets I have are occasions where there was too much alcohol involved. That's the only drug I've ever had some difficulties with....

 

What's more for me is that I know all about the history of mental illness in my family; particularly, schizophrenia in a grandmother. This is the prime kind of risk you want to consider when dealing with psychedelics. And I can indeed see why. It's still beyond words at this point, but certain experiences have allowed me to....see into the depths of my own genetics, I suppose. I'm strong of mind enough to have been able to handle it. I've always been able to retain my ability to "choose" when exploring these depths; my rational mind has been there....even when I'm experiencing past it. In a way it's quite beautiful to be able to have a very good idea of what mental illness is like, but being able to choose not to succumb to it.

 

If you can use psychedelics to get "fucked up" for the sake of "partying" then more power to you. However, most people I've talked to would say that that just wouldn't be preferable. If you want to party and be social, there are drugs for that. You want a decent set and setting with psychedelics.

[Noggy]

I think I've mentioned this before, but someone once said to me that the journey of enlightenment (they definitely didn't know a lot about what they were saying) is akin to climbing a long mountain. Psychedelics, used properly, is like a helicopter that shoots you up the mountain and gets you to almost the top, and then shoots you back down again. Almost a kensho-type experience. I definitely see this.

 

Noggy, have you ever talked to a fella named Brad Warner?

 

Not that I know of.