Drugs And Spiritual Experience

[lunaticheathen]

Shaky cam, but truth from Uncle Bill.

 

[RintrahRoars]

Years ago, I did ecstasy with my boyfriend. It made me excruciatingly sensitive, open and loving. When I say that the experience changed me, I really mean it, like a classic before and after conversion experience. Others commented on how I changed. I ceased being so judgmental, cynical, and depressed. Became much more accepting and joyful.

 

It's not like I am *always* accepting, optimistic and non-depressed, but I feel like it re-directed me from my self-involvement, and made me a much warmer, connected person.

 

From what i have heard, this is not an unusual experience for those who have taken ecstasy. In fact, it was developed, and is being tested again for use in psychotherapy, particularly for those suffering from PTSD, and apparently is giving good results.

 

Though I won't say my experience was a spiritual experience like others I have had (non-drug induced), it was a net improvement in my outlook, and my way of relating to people. And since I am quite convinced that our relationships with other people is where we find happiness, it was valuable and I would have missed out had I not had the experience.

 

I had a similar experience a month ago with a combination of mdma, ketamine and salvia divinorum. It not only allowed me to feel love itself (as opposed to the ego's attachment of things) for the first time in my life but it then let me figure out intellectually what love is. I guess what I mean by love here is connectedness, unity and deep empathy. At the same time it shocked me to realize that my life is so devoid of love, but the experience did and still is changing me for the better.

[Antlerman]

It not only allowed me to feel love itself (as opposed to the ego's attachment of things) for the first time in my life but it then let me figure out intellectually what love is. I guess what I mean by love here is connectedness, unity and deep empathy. At the same time it shocked me to realize that my life is so devoid of love, but the experience did and still is changing me for the better.

There's a reason they call it gaining insight. You're never really the same once you experience that difference. Everything becomes contrasted by that. It becomes the goal.

[RintrahRoars]

Eventually it will only be a memory that I can only represent with symbols of worlds, but it showed me that love is in my nature and that true compassion can always flow from within (no ulterior motives, no help needed from an external supernatural being), and that will have lasting effects. And yes, I suppose it can also be the goal.

[Antlerman]

Eventually it will only be a memory that I can only represent with symbols of worlds, but it showed me that love is in my nature and that true compassion can always flow from within (no ulterior motives, no help needed from an external supernatural being), and that will have lasting effects. And yes, I suppose it can also be the goal.

That's well put, but don't underestimate the power of those symbols to you. Those symbols help the focus the mind towards that and allow you to realize that within yourself more and more. An important thing to understand is that the drug did not create that in you, but simply allowed you to see what was there all along. Whether it is a drug like this, a random peak experience, or experienced through meditation, the best way to describe it is that these are moments of pulling back that veil to see what was always, already fully there inside you.

 

The mind, the clutter, the debris, the chattering of our thoughts we embed ourselves in and call reality, obscure our conscious minds from seeing and experiencing that in ourselves. Clearing that debris allow us to see it and experience it unencumbered. What I personally have found is to realize that within ourselves is something that we can experience all the time through disciplining our minds. When we learn how to quite them and listen, simply be present and aware, that is allowed to arise from within us and become acutely aware of by our conscious minds. It's who we really are, not that mental self we believe we are.

 

Don't forget, that self-image, that 'self' we believe we are is itself symbolic. It's just that that symbol is the one we tell ourselves is the real 'me'. Instead you find it's just a part of the real you, like your hand or your foot is.

[micksherlock]

Hello,

 

When this topic was originally in my head, I was specifically thinking of psychoactive drugs and meditative practices, but I'm going to extend this to all spiritual practices and rituals that don't fall under the label of "meditation".

 

Q:

 

What is your religions/spiritualities outlook on psychoactive drugs? Do you agree/disagree? Do you believe that some drugs can be helpful in a spiritual experience? Do you believe in drug-induced spiritual experiences? Do you view drugs as a shortcut, or a way of cheating, an illusion, or something else entirely?

 

Cheers,

Nogs

 

Interesting topic.

 

Here is a tiny excerpt from my book, I Am Christ - The Crucifixion - Painful Truths:

 

Getting High on Belief

 

The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. (1)

George Bernard Shaw

 

Other neuroscientific studies have shown that religious rituals enacted upon the powerful medium of the belief, like praying, singing and the reading of psalms, to name a few, arouse the intoxicating neurotransmitter known as dopamine in the brain. Dopamine is responsible for decreasing inhibitions and transmitting feelings of pleasure and arousal. It is the neurotransmitter in charge of seeking and enjoying the rewards and pleasures of life, such as eating tasty foods and having sex. For this reason, dopamine is also stimulated by various narcotics, such as cocaine and amphetamines, a fact which may add greater depth to Karl Marx’s famous saying; Religion is the opiate of the masses.

 

In his book, The Neuroscience of Religious Experience, Dr. Patrick McNamara of the Boston University School of Medicine, reported:

 

All of these neuroimaging studies….of both familiar religious practices such as prayer and glossolalia, as well as compassion meditation and reading of the Psalms, converge on the conclusion that the circuit of brain sites that we identified as crucial for religiosity from the clinical data (orbitofrontal, right temporal, limbic system [amygdala], the serotonin and dopamine systems, etc.) also appear consistently in the neuroimaging findings of healthy persons performing religious practices. This is a remarkable fact. Across many different types of religious practices and many different types of participants, the prefrontal lobes…..the temporal lobes, the limbic system and the DA (Dopamine) systems all appear to undergo increased levels of activation during the religious practice. (2)

 

Is it any wonder people become so attached to beliefs that involve a weekly or even daily ritual? As human beings, we are naturally drawn to things that give us pleasure, whether it’s eating food we enjoy, or imbibing intoxicating substances. In the case of religious beliefs, it is not far-fetched to posit that one of the most attractive aspects of this kind of belief is the constant supply of dopamine to the brain, which also works to compound the emotional appeals of the belief.

 

Elaborating on the relationship between dopamine and the religious experience, Dr. McNamara says:

 

Dopamine is the other neurotransmitter repeatedly implicated in religious experiences. Relatively high levels of dopamine in the circuit create a pleasurable and positive mood. When low serotonin is combined with high dopamine levels in the circuit, the feeling of being inundated with meaningful images and impressions is associated with positive affect, and you are much more likely to get religious experiences. (3)

 

 

Refs:

1. Joan Konner. The Atheist’s Bible. Harper Collins. (2009). Pg. 28
   
2. Patrick McNamara. The Neuroscience of Religious Experience. Cambridge University Press. (2009). Pg. 127.
   
3. Ibid. 128.
   

[Antlerman]

Is it any wonder people become so attached to beliefs that involve a weekly or even daily ritual? As human beings, we are naturally drawn to things that give us pleasure, whether it’s eating food we enjoy, or imbibing intoxicating substances. In the case of religious beliefs, it is not far-fetched to posit that one of the most attractive aspects of this kind of belief is the constant supply of dopamine to the brain, which also works to compound the emotional appeals of the belief.

Hi Michael, I looked at some of your website, and at times I find myself agreeing with you, yet other times it's not that clear. I wouldn't say that the attraction to and the power of beliefs and ritual can be simply "getting high". I think it is vastly more complex than this, and in fact for the majority of people who are part of these 'faith systems', having religious experience is actually rare. The benefits they gain are more community, routine, structures to help navigate their daily world with some sense of order and security and belonging through group-membership. These are psychological and social needs.

 

The practitioners who actually use ritual, symbolism, etc in order to 'connect with God' (or 'get high'), are the ones who are in fact stimulating those parts of the brain that do result in these sorts of releases. But is it about the drug? Is the pursuit of "God" an attraction to them like finding a good bag of weed, or doing straight shots of tequila? I think for some of those in neuroscience to speculate like this is to overlook all sorts of psychological, social, and spiritual factors that having such experiences address within them. I hardly see it as simply reducible to a desire for an intoxicant. That's way too simple.

 

I see elsewhere you say you wish to dethrone belief in human consciousness. But what are you really saying? This in fact does relate to this here as well. I get that beliefs are really just how we perceive truth to be, and that perception changes. I get that 'seeing beyond our beliefs' is liberating to the conscious mind, and I fully support breaking down the illusions that these beliefs represent reality to the point I see myself as right and others wrong, in effect tying and restricting myself to those beliefs. I'm all for that. But I don't think beliefs, and in a religious context I'm speaking right now, are inherently bad. In fact, I might argue they are inherently necessary. The problem isn't having beliefs, but having a lack of understanding what their nature is and mistaking them for facts. And that, applies to not just the religious, but all forms of beliefs. It's the old, "I'm so glad I know the truth now!" syndrome. Agree?

[Antlerman]

P.S. In your blog you spoke of "self-hypnosis", and compared this with meditation. You cited the book Unlimited Selling Power, as saying it explicitly:

 

"

Self-hypnosis occurs frequently in everyday life and can be found in such diverse activities as day-dreaming, jogging, prayer, reading, listening to music, meditation, or even driving the freeways. Once in the self-induced hypnotic state, suggestibility is greatly heightened. Psychological barriers and defenses

are

lowered, and the person's unconscious becomes more receptive to new programming."

 

This is the same popularized misconceptions of meditation that the Christians have when they say you make yourself suggestible for demons to put stuff into your head! Fortunately, research into the differences between hypnosis and mediation show this is untrue. You are not in a suggestible state in meditation. Please read this presentation that covers specifically that misconception, it's history and the research findings exposing that as incorrect: Meditation: Some Kind of (Self-) Hypnosis? A Deeper Look

 

(I also recommend reading that paper to specifically address the OP about drug use in spiritual experience. He goes into detail about that in his research.

[micksherlock]

P.S. In your blog you spoke of "self-hypnosis", and compared this with meditation. You cited the book Unlimited Selling Power, as saying it explicitly:

 

 

"

Self-hypnosis occurs frequently in everyday life and can be found in such diverse activities as day-dreaming, jogging, prayer, reading, listening to music, meditation, or even driving the freeways. Once in the self-induced hypnotic state, suggestibility is greatly heightened. Psychological barriers and defenses

are

lowered, and the person's unconscious becomes more receptive to new programming."

 

This is the same popularized misconceptions of meditation that the Christians have when they say you make yourself suggestible for demons to put stuff into your head! Fortunately, research into the differences between hypnosis and mediation show this is untrue. You are not in a suggestible state in meditation. Please read this presentation that covers specifically that misconception, it's history and the research findings exposing that as incorrect: Meditation: Some Kind of (Self-) Hypnosis? A Deeper Look

 

(I also recommend reading that paper to specifically address the OP about drug use in spiritual experience. He goes into detail about that in his research.

 

Just wanted to let you know that I am not ignoring your comments. They raise some really good points, but unfortunately, I am very busy at the moment, so I will get to it, as it is certainly a discussion worth having. Thanks and sorry.

[WMDKitty]

I don't care one way or the other what other people do. I enjoy psychedelics every now and again, myself, and have a fondness for, erm, "herbal" substances. On the other hand, I've tripped BALLS on Ambien, totally unintentionally, and there was this one time I was awake for three days straight (not for lack of trying to sleep) and, hooo boy, you don't need chemical assistance when you're sleep-deprived.

 

At the very least, getting my spastic body into a (more) relaxed state -- chemically induced or not -- also puts my mind in a relaxed state. (Somehow, anxiety makes me spastic, and being spastic makes me anxious, and it's a weird vicious cycle involving the miswiring of my brain.) Throw a psychedelic substance on top of that, and I'll happily fly. Or pass out. Probably both.

 

BUT

 

I won't take anything psychedelic without having a sober sitter to make sure I'm not doing anything stupid and/or dangerous, and to bring me down if I have a bad reaction.

[RintrahRoars]

Tim Leary posting from WMD Kitty's computer

[WMDKitty]

Nah, it's just that I'm one of those "research the hell out of it before

 

And kinda (perpetually) stoned.

[mcdaddy]

I don't care one way or the other what other people do. I enjoy psychedelics every now and again, myself, and have a fondness for, erm, "herbal" substances. On the other hand, I've tripped BALLS on Ambien, totally unintentionally, and there was this one time I was awake for three days straight (not for lack of trying to sleep) and, hooo boy, you don't need chemical assistance when you're sleep-deprived.

 

At the very least, getting my spastic body into a (more) relaxed state -- chemically induced or not -- also puts my mind in a relaxed state. (Somehow, anxiety makes me spastic, and being spastic makes me anxious, and it's a weird vicious cycle involving the miswiring of my brain.) Throw a psychedelic substance on top of that, and I'll happily fly. Or pass out. Probably both.

 

BUT

 

I won't take anything psychedelic without having a sober sitter to make sure I'm not doing anything stupid and/or dangerous, and to bring me down if I have a bad reaction.

 

I went out on my balcony and started brow-beating my satellite dish for talking too loud one night when I took ambien and didn't sleep. Also talked to the alarm clock radio. Shit is crazy.

[WMDKitty]

I just realized, wow, I just left half a sentence hanging up there, and I have no clue what I was trying to say.

 

Ffffffuuuuuu....

 

It must be nap-time!

[JoshB0XX]

I am a pro psychedelics kind of guy. I honestly do believe that they give you a peer into the netherworld, because I can honestly say that it was my very first (shroom) trip that had me waking up the next day questioning my existence and God like never before. Like mentioned though, it's an extremely fickle realm. You never know exactly what is going to happen, and you'll never have the same trip twice. (which is why addicts don't prefer them) You have to be careful and precise with your dosages, and yes it is wise to have a guide, or sober sitter at least.

 

I never viewed it as a spiritual thing until the last few years. I was exploring how to make my own hallucinogenic concoction with morning glory seeds when I stumbled upon a South American ceremony known as Ayahuasca. This is a truly deep, profound, and spiritual journey. This is NOT something to try on your own, and you without a doubt need a guide. It consists of brewing two roots together into a tea. One root containing DMT, the other containing an MAOI to make the DMT orally active. DMT normally, if ingested, would be eaten up by enzymes in a matter of minutes. However, when taken with an MAOI, you get a 6-8 hour loving and graceful tour of life, other dimensions, beings, what have you. A much more retainable experience than a puff of DMT, though you have to be in it for the long haul.

 

I'd definitely recommend trying DMT before delving into an Ayahuasca journey. While I actually haven't had a journey myself yet, I have been studying them for 2 years. Erowid.org will normally have the answer for any drug related questions you have. As far as what I've done, what I'd consider the most spiritual? I'd say shrooms definitely put me in a very meditative state, more so than any drug I've tried. DMT is intense and quick, and feels more to me like inter-dimensional travel than spiritually meditating, though I have met beings on the other side!!!

 

And if you are interested in DMT, spend some time getting to know it before you try it. My year long study of it before my first dose, along with basic meditation knowledge, allowed me to successfully move through my trip, something that most people don't get on their first try. When in doubt, clear your mind!

 

I am a pro psychedelics kind of guy, haha!

[JoshB0XX]

Oh oh, and I know that everyone is raving about the DMT: The Spirit Molecule documentary, BUT, I picked up the book years ago, and I assure you, reading that will answer any question you have about DMT and whether you want to try it or not. All the stories from his studies are bizarre to the nth degree!!! Definitely worth the read!