My Nde, As A Response To A Couple Requests

[Mitzer]

This is in response to those who requested I tell about my NDE and anyone else who might be interested.

I'd been an atheist for about 10 years before my heart attack. I had no problem with the thought of no after life. Well, at first I did, but after I thought about it being just like going to sleep and sleeping forever (for about a day) that was fine with me!

Anyway, the night I had the heart attack I had been sitting at the computer a couple hours . I was getting ready to get off the computer when I felt an uneasy feeling in my chest. At first I thought I'd been sitting wrong or had indigestion. When I stood up...oh boy...the pain started. And let me tell you, that's the absolute worse pain I've ever had to endure. I woke my partner up and told him I was having a heart attack. He hurriedly got dressed and we went out to the car so he could take me to the hospital. He couldn't open the door for some reason, so he said he'd call 911. The ambulance got there in what seemed 5 minutes. They put me on a gurney after I told them about the terrible pain. They wheeled me out, put me in the ambulance. The EMT said they were going to try to stabilize me before they went on. Then...I saw complete blackness. I had no cognicenze of who I was or where I was. It was as if I had just come into existence. I thought to myself "what?", not in English, but the essence of the word. Suddenly to my left I saw plants, trees and blue sky start to form to my left. As I looked at them I felt welcome and love (I know this sounds strange...but...) and actually felt a familiarity with them, which at the time didn't seem odd at all. As the plants and sky continued to appear in front of me it seemed I was in a meadow or field way out in the country. I felt pure joy. Then I felt a feeling I'd never experienced...a dimension to myself in that I was "whole". I can't remember what that felt like, but I remember thinking how wonderful it felt. Then I looked at the plants and trees and knew there was something wonderful beyond them. I started to go, but couldn't move. Then I felt that feeling in my chest and remembered my humanness. It didn't hurt in the least, I simply felt the feeling without the pain. I looked down to see what was holding me back and instead of ground I saw an immense space...like looking out in space except instead of black it was a misty grey blue. I saw faint arcs and I think even a huge sphere (but it wasn't a planet...rather I don't think it was). I think now, although at that time I didn't, that this space was eternity. Then I saw these little dark areas, like squarish bubbles and one flashed very quickly like a strobe. It was this life and I knew what that meant. I had to return to it. The other bubbles were former lives (and maybe future lives), and there were many. I didn't want to come back to this life. I saw so much selfishness and lack of love. It reminded me of a play so long and stupid and boring I'd do anything not to go see it. I said in English, "oh, no!", but soon somehow knew within me that I had no choice. I must return.

Moments later I was back in the ambulance. I opened my eyes and saw that EMT who was feverishly working to save my life. I felt that horrible pain again, but it meant absolutely nothing to me. I thought to myself "dog gone it, why'd you have to bring me back here?". A few seconds later I heard him say "Got him! Let's go!" and the abulance took off.

I was out again, and came to in the ER for a second or two and went blank again. Then I woke in ICCU and threw up and went back to sleep...or whatever. The next day I awoke and felt great physically, but I felt like I was 20. I thought to myself "now, why the heck didn't I feel this way when I was young? I could have done so much!". I knew what had happened and I wondered why I didn't see any tunnel with a bright light. I was puzzled at that and I couldn't wait to get out of that hospital to do some research. And, man, did I!

Now, I'm a rational person. I'm sure I am just as rational as before that happened to me. SOMETHING happened. It was no dream. I've had gazillion dreams and I knew when waking or soon after...they were dreams. This was no dream. It was real...in fact more real than remembering the dinner I went to last night . Yep, thought about that research with the brain making enzymes or whatever. Why would my mind conjure up a false state of being upon death? What useless purpose would that serve? The human body is designed to heal itself. Why, after "coming back", would I be tricked into preferring a state of stupor rather than reality? Oh, yeah, I've had dreams I hated to wake up from, but would I prefer to stay asleep, dreaming my life away? Nope!

Could my NDE have not really been that? Possibly...but for all purposes and reasons to me about as possible as the God of Abraham being a reality.

So, in my research I've come to the conclusion...we ain't as smart as we think we are. There's lots to be learned when we think about quantum physics and string and other theories, and we're just starting to crawl. It's be a while before we're walking. When we find out what occupies all that space between the nucleus of an atom and the proton, maybe we'll be getting somewhere !

[Deva]

Thank you for sharing your story. I thought the part about the past and future lives was very interesting. Since you had your experience, do you now have a conviction that reincarnation happens?

 

I have felt something similar to this "feel whole" part that you describe, but it was not an NDE, it was somehow arrived at by meditating on death when I was a teenager - it was also very brief. When it ended, it was so disappointing that I was the same ole me.

[jblueep]

Thank you Mitzer. That was very interesting. I'm definitely not a nihilist, just based on the first law of thermodynamics if nothing else

[scriptor]

Very, very interesting story. Thanks so much for sharing it.

 

NDEs have always fascinated me. The problem is, its very difficult to know who is sincere and who is just trying to convince you of their religious views. So its nice to here a sincere story from someone who is not trying to push a particular religion. Since my de-conversion, my view has been that I hope there is an afterlife, and I hope its nice, but since I don't know I'm just going to go ahead and try to live this life as well as I can.

 

And you're definitely right, at the end of the day what we don't understand vastly outweighs what we do. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

[mymistake]

Why would my mind conjure up a false state of being upon death? What useless purpose would that serve? The human body is designed to heal itself. Why, after "coming back", would I be tricked into preferring a state of stupor rather than reality? Oh, yeah, I've had dreams I hated to wake up from, but would I prefer to stay asleep, dreaming my life away? Nope!

Could my NDE have not really been that? Possibly...but for all purposes and reasons to me about as possible as the God of Abraham being a reality.

So, in my research I've come to the conclusion...we ain't as smart as we think we are. There's lots to be learned when we think about quantum physics and string and other theories, and we're just starting to crawl. It's be a while before we're walking. When we find out what occupies all that space between the nucleus of an atom and the proton, maybe we'll be getting somewhere !

 

I don't have the answers. Thank you for sharing your story. It was interesting and I believe you experienced everything you wrote here. May I ask did the way you lived your life change in any other noticeable way? Just curious.

[Mitzer]

All of you are welcome! I love to share and learn!

 

I don't have convictions for anything, really (I can only say I go with what makes sense if I don't have a direct experience myself). So that said, yes, I find reincarnation to be a completely rational reality based on what I've learned, the many stories I've read AND what I experienced. Many people have what they call an out of body experience (OBE). I now find that may be just as valid as the NDE.

 

I question the validity of a NDE of one who tries to impart religion (or any philosophy) on anyone. It's not fair for me to judge, true, yet the majority of NDErs more or less seem to cast off religious beliefs. This leads me to question the motives of those who claim to come back with some "important message". Some claim to see Jesus or God. But Buddhists claim to see Buddha, Muslims Mohammed, etc. I saw no God or diety, as is the case with many also. My personal take is you meet yourself, who you are and what makes you who you are.

 

Whatever this NDE thing is all about, I'm pretty sure physics will provide the answer some day. My personal contemplation on this right now is that physics is driven (e.g. chemical reaction) by something. Might that something be conciousness (not to be consfused with a "diety"...if that makes sense.)? And might it be that the physical can't exist without that conciousness and vice versa? So, to add to that, what resonates with me is the String Theory (mathematics of which opens up to eleven dimensions). Universes having no begininng and no end with countless "big bangs" and "big collapses" going on constantly. Lol...maybe I'm going too far off topic here! And if I've made an error on the String Theory, please feel free to correct me...I'm no physicist.

[ConureDelSol]

I have an idea to chip in! Of course, I'm not invalidating your experience, but I have wondered if perhaps the brain tricks our body into seeing and feeling comfort in our final moments? The only reason I say this is because so many people experience death differently. You hear all of the NDEs from Christians who say they saw Jesus and Angels and all that. You hear others say they met aliens, and some just say they experienced a happy memory all over again. The only constant I see is that there is that feeling of comfort and joy. Perhaps the mind perceives death differently in different people and finds a way to cope? I don't know, I realize it sounds a little bit like a useless function but who knows?

 

Although, I do recall seeing a show about people having NDEs and claiming they went to Hell. So, eh, I could be wrong. It would be cool to have more in-depth studies of people who are near death anyway (consenting patients of course).

[Mitzer]

mymistake, I pretty much live my life as before. I mean, I didn't have a wild or on the edge lifestyle or anything like that anyway. I was a pretty even keeled guy and gave the benefit of doubt when such the situation came up. Or do you mean about being gay? Oh, hell, gay...schmay...we are what we are, and that's all there is to it. I was 100 per cent gay before, and I'm still 100 per cent gay. I don't wear it, don't expect special treatment because of it. It's just who I am and it's no big deal one way or the other to me.

However, my philosophy has changed. Before I thought...you die, you're dead. That's it. Now I find it quite likely our consciousness (spirit, if you will) goes on. I don't fear death...in fact, look forward to it (lol...no, I ain't about to do myself in!). And just let me say what's become my philosophy: Doesn't matter what you or I believe. What really is the truth?

[Antlerman]

Hi Mitzer. I've a lot I can contribute to your considerations on this experience. I've spent the last 30 years of my life digging into the depths of such an experience myself. It profoundly changes your life, to be sure. And yes, it is no mere dream or 'warm fuzzy'. The world, reality is rent open and you see and experience something more real than any reality we live in within the 'ordinary' consensus type conscious we call reality. I'll just get the ball rolling with you by providing a link to a few thoughts I shared recently on NDE's you may find informative. In the following link, read my first post at post 9, through post 17. That video is worth your watch as well, even though its an hour in length. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/50401-somethings-i-still-struggle-with/#entry735591

 

Additionally, you can read about my NDE here on page 11, post 217 (that direct link function is broken right now): http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/19243-the-doctrine-of-hell/page__st__200#entry318390

 

Now I'll add that what was opened to me and the depth of that experience I have discovered can be experienced through meditation practices. I regularly experience what you described, open fields, visual light, infinite depth and mind, perfect clarity, etc. The effects on your entire life are to say the least profound and accessible no other way. No reason can fathom it or produce it, as it is no cognitive thought leading to happy emotions. You know what I'm speaking of.

 

Process this and let me know your thoughts. Thanks for sharing your experience, and welcome to the club.

[Margee]

It's too late to read this thread right now, but I can't wait till morning with my coffee!! Thank you for posting your story Mitzer!! I was hoping you would! I am very interested in this topic.

 

Margee

[Mitzer]

Antlerman, thanks for sharing your interesting story. NDErs seems to experience them in different ways (although they're very similar in certain aspects). It's unfair to try to make others undertand what we've personally learned from them as a message to humanity. If there is some kind of "message" or lesson, I think it's strictly on a personal level. But I don't think there are any "messages"...they just happen to some and tacking an ethereal "reason" may or may not be correct. Who really knows? But it's great to talk about them as long as we respect each other's experience.

My take is my physical body would be dead if not for a hard working, dedicated and able EMT putting all the latest technology of medicine to use. What happened, happened to me. Maybe I don't even have a right to tell it (because it was personal and it can't be proven), yet I can't help but want to talk about it, lol. If there is a message I feel the message is it doesn't matter what you believe or don't believe. Love and respect others. One NDEr said she wishes everyone would have a NDE. The world would be a paradise if that could happen. And I tend to agree with her.

 

Having a BUSY week end myself! Anxious for your thoughts, Margee!

[scriptor]

Hey Antlerman, I just read about your NDE and found it absolutely fascinating. I recently had a discussion with a colleague of mine (a Catholic) who claims to have had what he calls a "conversion experience" which he described in a way that was very similar to what you wrote about. After his experience he went looking for answers, and he feels that he has found them in Catholicism. He is a very genuine person whom I respect greatly, and I have no doubt that he really experienced what he described. I also have no doubt that both your experience and Mitzer's were genuine. So I went on to read your original 3-part testimony, which I also enjoyed greatly. Just wanted to say thanks for sharing it.

 

If there is a message I feel the message is it doesn't matter what you believe or don't believe. Love and respect others. One NDEr said she wishes everyone would have a NDE. The world would be a paradise if that could happen. And I tend to agree with her.

 

I could not agree more with this. I almost wish I could have a NDE. I say almost, because I don't actually want to come that close to death. But you are certainly right about the love and respect. If we could only do that, then what a wonderful place the world would be!

[Antlerman]

If there is a message I feel the message is it doesn't matter what you believe or don't believe. Love and respect others. One NDEr said she wishes everyone would have a NDE. The world would be a paradise if that could happen. And I tend to agree with her.

As well as I do.

[Antlerman]

Hey Antlerman, I just read about your NDE and found it absolutely fascinating. I recently had a discussion with a colleague of mine (a Catholic) who claims to have had what he calls a "conversion experience" which he described in a way that was very similar to what you wrote about. After his experience he went looking for answers, and he feels that he has found them in Catholicism. He is a very genuine person whom I respect greatly, and I have no doubt that he really experienced what he described. I also have no doubt that both your experience and Mitzer's were genuine. So I went on to read your original 3-part testimony, which I also enjoyed greatly. Just wanted to say thanks for sharing it.

I appreciate you saying so. As for your friend, the important thing I've come to understand over time and with experience and some small degree of insight, what really is important is not so much where we hang our hats, but that we recognize we have a head to put one on. The languages we use are tools to help us touch what is in ourselves. If Catholicism helps someone who has "touched God" access that in themselves, than I'm happy for them. It's what's in them that is important, not the structures we use to try to help us interface with it. For me, once we recognize the difference, we can celebrate "God" in all others.

 

Would that everyone knew this...

 

 

I almost wish I could have a NDE. I say almost, because I don't actually want to come that close to death. But you are certainly right about the love and respect. If we could only do that, then what a wonderful place the world would be!

May I make a suggestion? Try meditation. Go as far in as you are open to go. I will grant you face that "Dark night of the soul" at a certain point, but by then, you are so compelled to find that Light in you on the other side of "you", you fall into that Abyss out of endless Love. Don't worry about the unknown. You will find your Self.

[scriptor]

May I make a suggestion? Try meditation. Go as far in as you are open to go. I will grant you face that "Dark night of the soul" at a certain point, but by then, you are so compelled to find that Light in you on the other side of "you", you fall into that Abyss out of endless Love. Don't worry about the unknown. You will find your Self.

 

I'm very interested in meditation, but I've never tried it. It seems like there are a lot of different techniques/methods. Do you have any resources or advice for where I should start?

[stryper]

 

 

[Question] Well XXX and I had a lot of conversation about that TV show that he watched where everybody saw the white light and then people and loved one and stuff like that, so what is your perception or your take on what happens? Do you see loved ones? Are they manifestation of those people coming to greet you or are they just aspects of yourself that shows you what you think you want to see or expect to see? Like the person going to hell, goes to hell. You know, I think that I probably will see other lifetimes waiting to greet me. So, will that be what I’ll see because that’s what I think I’ll see?

 

[MEntity] Those who truly die are not always “greeted” on the other side because part of the process of dying includes going through what that individual expected to go through. And not very often does the personality know what to expect or it has become so programmed in what to expect that there is no room for greetings on the other side. But those who have near death experiences quite often have their support groups on the other side because the lifetime is not over and the process is one of escorting if you will the consciousness back to the body in a way that is either part of that life’s plans so that it affects

the life in a way that gets built upon or just happens to be something that the personality experienced and becomes a part of its experience. So, whether there are those loved ones or fragments of the self, other personalities that you’ve been on the other side waiting to greet you, the potential is always there for that but it is not consistent and it is always dependent on the personality. Those who return however are quite often greeted because they are not there to experience their afterlife. They are there to be returned.

 

[Question] So everybody tends to see what they think they’re going to see with their interpretation of what happens to you after life ends. So if somebody isn’t coming back and you really are dying but they think they’re going to see that then they see that?

 

[MEntity] If by “that” you mean loved ones greeting them … of course, yes. Most of you who are Old souls when you die don’t experience much difference from what you’re experiencing just before because the consciousness is to a certain degree that allows the transition to feel as if you’ve shifted perspective.

 

Because the more you manifest Essence within the lifetime, the less shocking the process of dying is because you will already have been who you are on the other side or the larger part of who you are and so the process is quite simple. And so while you know yourself as XXX and you know yourself in this body, that will be part of transition as simply stepping out of context of living but still having everything familiar quite comfortable but a lot more malleable and you will then you will be greeted by those you might want to see or experience and you will still have a relationship with those who are still on the physical plane even if they’re not aware of it. By relationship, we mean that they have a counterpart of themselves that can accommodate you in the afterlife in the way that is familiar to you. That does not mean you have a relationship to the physical version.

 

http://library.truth...-the-afterlife/

[Margee]

Did any of you guys get to see this great 20 minute program on 'Ted', about neuroanatomist Jill Bolte Taylor? She had an opportunity few brain scientists would wish for - One morning, she realized she was having a massive stroke. As it happened -- as she felt her brain functions slip away one by one, speech, movement, understanding -- she studied and remembered every moment. This is a powerful story about how our brains define us and connect us to the world and to one another. I find it quite amazing!

 

You, who have experienced NDE are very lucky.

 

This story helped me so much when my sister died of a brain aneurysm. It's really worth the 20 minutes in my opinion.

 

 

[stryper]

Mitzer and AM, Those were very powerful experiences to even read.

 

The closest I've come was what the Micheal's called astral travel. It is question 2) on that page.

[Mitzer]

Margee, thanks for posting that great video. I had seen it a while back, but it's so fascinating it's well worth another look. I'm glad that scientificaly educated people are talking about such things. In the past I think they would have feared ridicule from their peers to speak of such things. How things have changed! It's great that you discovered this and found it helpful in a very sorrowful time.

 

I don't look at death like I used to. I don't see it as sad, but rather a wonderful thing. I know many people might find that a little...strange...to say the least. Lol...well...been there, done that.

 

Stryper, thanks for the link with the Q&A about your experience. Fascinating. The idea that we may lead other lives (likely a constant thing) is acceptable to me and makes much sense. I don't think I'll live to see the day that physics proves (or, disproves...to be fair) the existence of consciousness. To me the idea of the existence of it makes one or even just a few incarnations seem unrealistic.

[Antlerman]

May I make a suggestion? Try meditation. Go as far in as you are open to go. I will grant you face that "Dark night of the soul" at a certain point, but by then, you are so compelled to find that Light in you on the other side of "you", you fall into that Abyss out of endless Love. Don't worry about the unknown. You will find your Self.

 

I'm very interested in meditation, but I've never tried it. It seems like there are a lot of different techniques/methods. Do you have any resources or advice for where I should start?

Sorry I hadn't reply to this yet. As for where to start I'll just share what works for me, but results may vary. You have to find what works for you. The beginning of mediation is to first still the mind, to quite all the constant chattering that's going on in our heads all the time we are normally not even aware just how much is really going on in there until you practice quieting it, then it becomes amazingly apparent. For techniques in this initial step, for myself I make use of Tibetan singing bowls. I'm very audio-oriented, and the bowls I have are hand beaten antique bowls which have incredibly rich harmonic structures which just sustain and fade off into infinite space.

 

They help my mind focus on the sound as a single focus until the mind and body become relaxed. I do this while sitting on a pillow crossed-legged on the floor, lights low in the room with a few candles light. Sometimes I use incense as well. Mind keeping your posture aligned with the spine, quite the mind, focus on breathing, the sound, your body, continually and gently quieting the thoughts which keep wanting to distract you into going with them, picking them apart. Just learn to observe them and let them go, without engaging in them directly.

 

Soon you open up into a quiet space where the mind become much more the observer, the witness of your mind and body doing their things. You are aware of them, but not a participant embedded within them. Through this, much begins to emerge from the deep subconscious mind, and so forth until some pretty phenomenal awareness opens to you, deeper and deeper, light, life, love, mind, etc. I'll let you read about these stages of meditation in this really great link here: http://integrallife....view-ken-wilber

 

The techniques you use are really aides, vehicles to help you move into those spaces. Those will vary upon the person, and upon the day for that person. Mantra's are also helpful, I use certain types of music good for meditation as well, practices of yoga work, etc. Try various things, but again, the beginning of all mediation is stilling the mind.

 

BTW, here's a good video showing some larger singing bowls. Try meditating to this if you wish:

 

[scriptor]

Sorry I hadn't reply to this yet. As for where to start I'll just share what works for me, but results may vary. You have to find what works for you. The beginning of mediation is to first still the mind, to quite all the constant chattering that's going on in our heads all the time we are normally not even aware just how much is really going on in there until you practice quieting it, then it becomes amazingly apparent. For techniques in this initial step, for myself I make use of Tibetan singing bowls. I'm very audio-oriented, and the bowls I have are hand beaten antique bowls which have incredibly rich harmonic structures which just sustain and fade off into infinite space.

 

They help my mind focus on the sound as a single focus until the mind and body become relaxed. I do this while sitting on a pillow crossed-legged on the floor, lights low in the room with a few candles light. Sometimes I use incense as well. Mind keeping your posture aligned with the spine, quite the mind, focus on breathing, the sound, your body, continually and gently quieting the thoughts which keep wanting to distract you into going with them, picking them apart. Just learn to observe them and let them go, without engaging in them directly.

 

Soon you open up into a quiet space where the mind become much more the observer, the witness of your mind and body doing their things. You are aware of them, but not a participant embedded within them. Through this, much begins to emerge from the deep subconscious mind, and so forth until some pretty phenomenal awareness opens to you, deeper and deeper, light, life, love, mind, etc. I'll let you read about these stages of meditation in this really great link here: http://integrallife....view-ken-wilber

 

The techniques you use are really aides, vehicles to help you move into those spaces. Those will vary upon the person, and upon the day for that person. Mantra's are also helpful, I use certain types of music good for meditation as well, practices of yoga work, etc. Try various things, but again, the beginning of all mediation is stilling the mind.

 

BTW, here's a good video showing some larger singing bowls. Try meditating to this if you wish:

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply Antlerman. I appreciate the advice and the resources. I'm always interested in learning new things. I have some limited experience attempting to still the mind, and I've always found it difficult. I actually found the singing bowls quite helpful. I'll have to take some time to look into this some more, and see how it goes. Thanks again!

[SoftIce]

Wow! Thank you so much for posting your NDE. I also don't think they can be used as evidence of an afterlife, but I use them in my own belief that there is. I am just facinated and love reading about them. For me they give me comfort. There is a website called near-death.com, that has tons of NDEs and OBEs (out of body experiences), and also common themes that people find in them, such as a religious figure, hell/heaven, reincarnation, etc.

[mcdaddy]

Wow! Thank you so much for posting your NDE. I also don't think they can be used as evidence of an afterlife, but I use them in my own belief that there is. I am just facinated and love reading about them. For me they give me comfort. There is a website called near-death.com, that has tons of NDEs and OBEs (out of body experiences), and also common themes that people find in them, such as a religious figure, hell/heaven, reincarnation, etc.

 

Ive been to that site hundreds of times, probably read 90% of everything on there. Good stuff. Still agnostic on the whole life after death thing tho. Not sure if it's our brains tricking us ir not.

[SoftIce]

Ive been to that site hundreds of times, probably read 90% of everything on there. Good stuff. Still agnostic on the whole life after death thing tho. Not sure if it's our brains tricking us ir not.

 

Oh yay! Someone else knows about it too. I like to think that they and OBEs are some proof, for me at least, even though I wouldn't use it as proof in a scientific way or to convince anyone else. For me at least, it feels more 'solid' than just beliving in a book. Although I still do struggle back and forth. The idea of there not being an after life is still too foreign and depressing for me, because it's been a constant belief my entire life. I think more than anythign, the idea that I would not be able to see my loved ones again, ever, is what makes me hope there is one. Then again, if there isn't one, I just think that it will be just like before we were born. It's not like we'll KNOW, since we'll stop existing.

 

If that's what happens, I take comfort in the idea that everything comes from and returns to the earth. That when things die, their bodies eventually become nutrients for other life. Of course, if your stuck in a box, that doesn't really work. I also take comfort in the fact that we literally are star stuff, that our bodies are made up of elements that are made up of atoms that have existed for billions of years, created by stars, and that even when we die, we still will continue to exist in some manner.

 

Ah sorry, sorry. I totally hijacked this thread with my inane ramblings. *facepalm*

[Mitzer]

Hey, SoftIce, it's great to share! I enjoyed your "ramblings"!

Yep, what one experiences with no evidence is not proof. If people don't believe NDEs happen I understand and respect that. I haven't heard of the link you provided, but I did check it out but the page was under reconstruction. There is another good one called Near Death Experience Research Foundation (NDERF) that I visit that sounds very similar. MANY NDEs posted.

Before I had the NDE, I made myself comfortable with the idea that death was like sleep only permanent. After that idea the thought of no after life didn't bother me.

The idea we're star dust really is fact. Neil de Grasse Tyson talks about that. Speaking of physicists, there are some pretty bizzare ideas being bantered about concerning physics. James Gates has some shocking findings and the link in your initial thread you provided with Rupert Sheldrake and Bruce Lipton's work was FASCINATING...although I've only had the time to view the first vid. I plan to watch the rest this week end...so thanks much for turning me on to them...I'd not heard of them or their research before.