Something I Can't Explain

[Antlerman]

 

 

Being slain in the spirit is a genuine experience. It's a common experience in religions the world over, long before modern Pentecostals incorporated it into their practices from African tribal religions.  These can in fact be induced and there are techniques one uses to produce them.  That doesn't make the insights or the experiences "not real".  

 

What exactly to you would make it "real"?  Do you understand how this is not a valid distinction?

I never said it wasn't real. Of course it was real. I'm simply wondering about the substance of it.

 

 

 

The substance of it depends upon the person and what meaning there is in it for them. One person could take such an experience and it open them up to some inner work, to growth and deeper spiritual growth. Another could take it as a form of entertainment and jump from experience to experience to fill some need to avoid growth. In which case the substance is pretty shallow. It's not a blanket formula. Look at it like someone who eats a complex meal of great taste and he cherishes every bite. Another clod would just wolf it down and see no difference between that an burger from White Castle. Same meal, entirely different experience of substance.

[Guest r3alchild]

 

 

Ill tell you why, once I figure out what the hell I even ment.

I think what you were saying is that if you don't have an explanation, then just tell yourself it wasn't anything extraordinary so then you don't have to think of it as anything special since it's just another "normal". That comes to what I said before about just compartmentalizing it away so you don't need to give it too much thought. Now that is an option, but I rather think that in your case it's just simply a matter of finding some way to talk about it that doesn't lead to some sort of fantastical, supernatural myth structure as you saw in Christianity. Sound about right?

Yes

[wonderer]

I think this story, and the discussion so far, illustrates just how difficult it is to share an extraordinary personal experience with others, especially when most of the experience is internal. It's actually a microcosmic look at how religions are formed, and then tend to split into doctrinal factions over conflicting interpretations of scripture.

 

There's the purely objective aspect, of course: Chris falling, people behind grabbing him and preventing him from tumbling head first down the stairs. Anyone there who witnessed this event can verify that he was touched by the feather, stood up, walked to the stairs, and seemed to faint and fall forward, but was prevented from falling all the way by people behind him. That's where objectivity in telling the story of the feather and its aftermath ends. But there's quite a bit more we can objectively state about the events leading up to this incident, prompting some logical inferences and some questions that suggest themselves as a result.

 

Because the most dramatic aspects of the experience were internal (a "snap," a feeling like an electric shock, a white room, feelings of love), Chris has to process the experience using his own filters and frame of reference, then rely on memory and his verbal skills to describe what happened in a way that his listeners can understand. Even if we think we agree on the meanings of the words he uses to explain what happened, if the experience was truly transcendent, by definition it was outside his comfort zone, and unfamiliar. In the mere relating of the event, the experience begins to undergo a transformation from the extraordinary to the ordinary, and the more intellectual effort that Chis and his listeners invest in interpreting the story, the farther removed it drifts from the actual event. At some point, the story completely replaces the experience, and you have the makings of an apocryphal tale. Religions have been founded on less dramatic stories.

 

But back to the objective story.

Let's eliminate, just for the sake of discussion, any medical emergency as the cause of the experience. Let's assume Chris had a thorough checkup after the incident, and the doctors ruled out medications, migraines, injury, or damage to his brain or heart. What else do we know for certain?

 

Well, we know that when Chris went to the hotel that day to see the guru, he was in a very receptive state for transcendent experience, and (I'm guessing here) a prime candidate for hypnosis. He had spent the 6 months prior to this incident visiting an ashram every week, where he "hung out with" the young people there. He began to learn chanting, and to open himself up to the gurus that taught there. Since he was only 17 at the time, peer pressure had a powerful influence over his emotional state and thought processes. He was, in effect, undergoing brainwashing.

 

But his state of receptivity didn't get its start at the ashram. We know this because he said that prior to the ashram, he had been "involved in many different spiritual beliefs and ideals." That means, presumably, that he had been trying out a number of religions and spiritual disciplines for years, which means (at least) his teenage years were spent this way, and to top it all off, his mother was supporting this search. The fact that she handed him crystals to give to the guru tells me reams of data about her.

 

So, we have a brainwashed young man, prepared for years prior to this by a susceptible and gullible mother, immersed in a basket of warm puppies in an ashram, bombarded by peer pressure, and taken by his mother to a talk given by a guru who has convinced her of her legitimacy. After this talk, people in the room were lining up, bowing to this woman, in effect, worshiping her, and hoping to be touched with a magic feather. He had to bow three times to her before she would "bless" him by touching his head with it. This, by the way, is a common mind control technique used by cult leaders: dangle blessings in front of followers, but withhold them at any hint of reluctance to give themselves fully. Once the magic feather touched Chris's head, he was "slain in the spirit." Anyone who has been to a revival service at a Pentecostal or Charismatic Christian church has seen this. When the level of excitement in the room reaches critical mass, the evangelist has merely to touch the forehead of the recipient of this "spiritual gift," and down he goes.

 

But back to the idea of the transcendent experience in the story - a moment in which there was a dramatic internal shifting of mental and emotional gears: was it real? The question - and the nature and substance of the answer - only has meaning to Chris. That's the trouble with such moments: they're intensely personal.

 

Rob

[Antlerman]

I think this story, and the discussion so far, illustrates just how difficult it is to share an extraordinary personal experience with others, especially when most of the experience is internal. It's actually a microcosmic look at how religions are formed, and then tend to split into doctrinal factions over conflicting interpretations of scripture.

 

There's the purely objective aspect, of course: Chris falling, people behind grabbing him and preventing him from tumbling head first down the stairs. Anyone there who witnessed this event can verify that he was touched by the feather, stood up, walked to the stairs, and seemed to faint and fall forward, but was prevented from falling all the way by people behind him. That's where objectivity in telling the story of the feather and its aftermath ends. But there's quite a bit more we can objectively state about the events leading up to this incident, prompting some logical inferences and some questions that suggest themselves as a result.

 

Because the most dramatic aspects of the experience were internal (a "snap," a feeling like an electric shock, a white room, feelings of love), Chris has to process the experience using his own filters and frame of reference, then rely on memory and his verbal skills to describe what happened in a way that his listeners can understand. Even if we think we agree on the meanings of the words he uses to explain what happened, if the experience was truly transcendent, by definition it was outside his comfort zone, and unfamiliar. In the mere relating of the event, the experience begins to undergo a transformation from the extraordinary to the ordinary, and the more intellectual effort that Chis and his listeners invest in interpreting the story, the farther removed it drifts from the actual event. At some point, the story completely replaces the experience, and you have the makings of an apocryphal tale. Religions have been founded on less dramatic stories.

I largely agree with most everything you say here.

But back to the objective story.

 

Let's eliminate, just for the sake of discussion, any medical emergency as the cause of the experience. Let's assume Chris had a thorough checkup after the incident, and the doctors ruled out medications, migraines, injury, or damage to his brain or heart. What else do we know for certain?

 

Well, we know that when Chris went to the hotel that day to see the guru, he was in a very receptive state for transcendent experience, and (I'm guessing here) a prime candidate for hypnosis.

Here's where I'll offer some caution about what you're saying. First the suggestion he is a prime candidate for hypnosis is supposition. But further than that it makes the error that altered states, or transcendent experience, included meditative states with this, are a form of hypnosis. That is an incorrect assumption as the experiences are markedly different.

He had spent the 6 months prior to this incident visiting an ashram every week, where he "hung out with" the young people there. He began to learn chanting, and to open himself up to the gurus that taught there. Since he was only 17 at the time, peer pressure had a powerful influence over his emotional state and thought processes. He was, in effect, undergoing brainwashing.

I have no idea what this ashram was or taught, and I assume neither do you. But to assume for the moment that this guru was not some cult leader, but actually teaching tried and true traditions of spiritual practice, to call this brainwashing would be like calling going to school to learn math is brainwashing, or perhaps a better analogy would be that of physical training, teaching the body how to perform certain feats. Mind training is a better description of what many of the legitimate traditions are about than some sort of brainwashing. That they make use of symbolism and rites and rituals as part of this does not at all mean the symbols are "lies", but rather "tools".

But his state of receptivity didn't get its start at the ashram. We know this because he said that prior to the ashram, he had been "involved in many different spiritual beliefs and ideals." That means, presumably, that he had been trying out a number of religions and spiritual disciplines for years, which means (at least) his teenage years were spent this way, and to top it all off, his mother was supporting this search. The fact that she handed him crystals to give to the guru tells me reams of data about her.

You have no idea where his mother was coming from. But let's suppose for a minute that she found that these practices were helping her legitimately in her spiritual life. She would be hoping to help teach and guide her son on a legitimate path for herself, hoping it would help him as well. Handing crystals to her guru to me sounds like part of a rich tradition laced with symbolism. To make an offering is common in religious practices as it has an effect on the mind to prostrate itself before a higher mind, a higher state, a higher truth, than what it holds itself to. In doing this, it releases ones own hold on their current knowledge and understanding, symbolically representing to themselves, their own desire to learn and become more.

 

The practice of guru worship is ancient, as the guru represents the divine to the practitioner. This is practiced in Tibetan Buddhism, and if you could call that a cult for that, well... what can I say. The problem with this tradition is that in the West, being largely Christian in mindsets, that can be misconstrued into something cultist. All I'm saying is don't assume this is the case here. That guru is only valid that way when they actually act that way.

 

So as far as being "receptive". Yes. Most definitely. With the right training, people are able to receive these higher insights, have these sorts of transcendent experiences. That means the training was effective. All I am suggesting is that there was likely a confluence of events, the time was ripe, to be opened for something like this to break through. In the simplest terms, what I hear based on his description, which parallels my description and others the world over, "hits like lightening, love everywhere, white light," etc (very common descriptions), I have come to know this is what the natural state of reality actually is. All that happens in these "peak experiences", which is exactly what these are, is to momentarily pull back that curtain and see what is always there already. With more 'unlearning', this becomes "normal". "Normal" right now, in such experiences, becomes exposed as the illusion. Again, ancient understandings and descriptions here, which I can easily use to describe it as well, plus my own language.

So, we have a brainwashed young man, prepared for years prior to this by a susceptible and gullible

Or open and receptive to moving beyond the illusion. Which way speaks of reality? From which point of view?

He had to bow three times to her before she would "bless" him by touching his head with it. This, by the way, is a common mind control technique used by cult leaders: dangle blessings in front of followers, but withhold them at any hint of reluctance to give themselves fully.

"Mind control"? Look, I understand these techniques can be abused by bad gurus to assume power over others, but these are acts that are about facilitating ones own receptivity to higher truth and understanding. I know this myself as I practice meditation, not part of any group or any religion or with anyone else, and I understanding quite intimately what happens within that space of withholding yourself. The only way to enter into the deeper spaces is to essentially strip yourself naked of all your assumption, exceptions, hopes and desires, needs, etc, and fall into it, where it then envelopes and embraces you. Now I could go into great length explaining the why of this, but we can save that.

 

So what I hear here as the guru seeing him withholding something, IF she were a legitimate teacher, she would understand that without his emptying of himself to this processes, he would not benefit. That would be absolutely true. So, to me, if he had opened himself, along with the confluence of other existential life events, it is no surprise at all to me he had an experience like this! That's why these practices exist. To help facilitate these awakenings of the conscious mind to what is, to real reality beyond the veil of illusion we live with inside our heads imaging what the world is.

Once the magic feather touched Chris's head, he was "slain in the spirit." Anyone who has been to a revival service at a Pentecostal or Charismatic Christian church has seen this. When the level of excitement in the room reaches critical mass, the evangelist has merely to touch the forehead of the recipient of this "spiritual gift," and down he goes.

In a sense perhaps. Raising energy in ritual is a way to help people to set aside their normal mental concerns and open themselves up. Think of it like going to a dance and letting go of your inhibitions a little. Not to get into the whole thing in the Pentecostal practice here, but only to say that don't assume that just because it happens in some badly unguided group of children who abuse the experience, making it the centerpiece of their religious experience in some sort of consumerist feeding frenzy, that the practice isn't legitimate in another context. They lifted from other traditions.

But back to the idea of the transcendent experience in the story - a moment in which there was a dramatic internal shifting of mental and emotional gears: was it real? The question - and the nature and substance of the answer - only has meaning to Chris. That's the trouble with such moments: they're intensely personal.

 

Rob

Again though, what on earth do people mean when they as "was it real"??? Did it happen? Yes. He said it happened. It was therefore a real experience. Can someone qualify what they mean in asking that question? What are they really asking?

[wonderer]

Antlerman,

 

I'd like to hear from Chris whether he feels that my analysis is valid. I respect that you have found a set of spiritual metaphors that you feel comfortable with, but in this case, Chris did not. He went from this group of "gurus" and followers to becoming "absorbed into Christianity," and is now suffering as a result.

 

Just so I am perfectly clear about where I stand on religion: Priests, preachers, "spiritual teachers," parsons, ministers, rabbis, gurus, holy men, witch doctors, sorcerers, warlocks, magicians and con artists are all cut from the same cloth. Some are well-meaning, perhaps, and some may be expert at convincing themselves and others that they are closer to some sort of cosmic truth than you are, but in the end, we all put on our tidy whities one leg at a time. None of us knows any more about "reality" or "supreme beings" or "cosmic consciousness" than anyone else. Ignorance about the meaning of life and god or gods is the great equalizer, the ultimate form of democracy.

 

My advice, for what it's worth (which admittedly might not be much)  to Chris and to everyone who has fallen into Christinity, or has jumped from one mind-numbing religious or "spiritual" con game to another, looking everywhere except in the mirror for salvation: Try nothing, at least for a while. Try simply living as a human being, and accept the fact that no one knows how the universe was formed, or why, or how and where life began in it, or why, and that there is no magical truth just waiting for you to look under the right feather to discover.

 

I'm suggesting that it's OK to not know anything about these things, and it's not necessary to believe in anything except yourself. Try it, if you haven't. It worked for me.

 

Respectfully,

 

 

Rob

[Kris]

Wonderer-- I liked how you laid everything out. I am a firm believer in the succeptablity of people in various situations and do believe that Chris could have been somewhat primed for the experience that he had. I wonder what he experience would have been had he been totally cynical and unreceptive. I appreciate a logical approach to circumstances.

[Antlerman]

Antlerman,

 

I'd like to hear from Chris whether he feels that my analysis is valid.

Well yes he certainly he needs to weigh the information for himself. I just feel its important to offer a perspective that doesn't just doesn't just take for granted that how you presented certain things as fact are the true picture. I found a lot of what you stated as part of your analysis to be factually incorrect.

Just so I am perfectly clear about where I stand on religion: Priests, preachers, "spiritual teachers," parsons, ministers, rabbis, gurus, holy men, witch doctors, sorcerers, warlocks, magicians and con artists are all cut from the same cloth. Some are well-meaning, perhaps, and some may be expert at convincing themselves and others that they are closer to some sort of cosmic truth than you are, but in the end, we all put on our tidy whities one leg at a time. None of us knows any more about "reality" or "supreme beings" or "cosmic consciousness" than anyone else. Ignorance about the meaning of life and god or gods is the great equalizer, the ultimate form of democracy.

Of course this is an interesting way to strip the value out of any spiritual path, reducing it to putting on underwear the same as the rest. Why then bother to go to school and get an education since everyone wears underwear? Might it not have to do with a quality of life issue?

 

But the real question then is that if you don't see the spiritual path of any value more than just, say, slogging back some beers and watching reality T.V. after a day of flipping burgers, then why are you interested in participating in a forum specifically dedicated to discussing matters of spirituality? This is not the correct forum to try to tell members you think it it should be avoided. This forum is dedicated to those with questions for themselves or other members about spirituality, or to discuss or explore their own interest in it. It's not the right forum to state ones lack of personal interest or disagreements with it.

My advice, for what it's worth (which admittedly might not be much)  to Chris and to everyone who has fallen into Christinity, or has jumped from one mind-numbing religious or "spiritual" con game to another, looking everywhere except in the mirror for salvation: Try nothing, at least for a while. Try simply living as a human being, and accept the fact that no one knows how the universe was formed, or why, or how and where life began in it, or why, and that there is no magical truth just waiting for you to look under the right feather to discover.

To distance oneself from something they are uncomfortable with is a good thing. I did the same myself. But don't assume that anyone who finds interest in the spiritual is falling back into the same issues as before. Only Chris can answer for himself where he is at. I tend to take the fact he started a topic here because there are legitimate concerns/interest for himself. I for one am happy to let him explore these questions here from the perspective of those who have gone through the deconversion process and how they have sorted out spiritual areas for themselves in their ExChristian spiritual paths. That's why this forum exists. That's its purpose.

I'm suggesting that it's OK to not know anything about these things, and it's not necessary to believe in anything except yourself. Try it, if you haven't. It worked for me.

 

Respectfully,

 

 

Rob

Well, thanks, but I've been on this path for quite a few years and these things are pretty basic, pretty fundamental to me at this point. Those are a simple given. For me, it's where do you go from there that's the real question. It's far from something you "believe in" in the sense you imagine from our past Christian world.

[Bhim]

Before I was absorbed into christianity I was involved in many diffrent spiritual beliefs and ideals. When I was 17 years old I was intruduced to the ashram in melbourne australia. I went there every week and hung out with all the young people. I didnt know much about what they taught I liked all the people I hung out with. However I picked up on some chanting and gurus that taught there.

 

About 6 months later my mother heard that guru maya was teaching at a hotel and asked if I wanted to go to listen to her. I said yes and went, when I got there I sat down and listened to her for about an hour or so. She was a thin littke black woman.

 

After she finished talking people went up to her and bowed to give respect, my mother came up to me and said before you go and give your respect give these crystals to her. I said no I just want leave.

 

So I walked up and bowed down, as I did that other people ahead of me did the same. As they did the guru would tap them on the head with a pecock feather. I waited for the feather to touch my head but it didnt. I had to bow three times then I looked at her and she gave me a strange smile and tapped me on the head with the feather.

 

After that I stood up and walked to the stairs going out. Then all of a sudden I felt like I was hit by a surge of electricity. It felt like a snap, then all I could see was a endless white room and I could fell everything was made of love. It was so strong I didnt care if I never left.

 

After all that happened in reality I was falling down the stairs then the people behind me caught me before I fell face first. But in this vision I felt as if many many hands caught me.

 

Interesting experience.  I'm not going to go so far as to say I believe in God (that's something I'm sort of working on these days after my parting from Christianity).  But I am favorably disposed to belief in the supernatural, and I don't entirely discount the possibility that what you experienced admits no natural explanation.

 

A couple thoughts.  First, I must say that the fact that you were falling down the stairs speaks against the profundity of this experience.  If there is a God who gave you this experience, I find it hard to believe that it would be accompanied by the possibility of physical danger.  I'd most likely just attribute this to a loss of blood pressure or some other effect that would explain your mind's nonstandard experience.  Having said that, I've never had a supernatural experience myself, so what do I know about this sort of thing?  And I guess that's the problem with supernatural experiences.  Though you may have them, you can't communicate them to anyone else, and thus can't validate your claim from anyone else's perspective.  But since none of us are Christians here, I doubt anyone's interested in evangelism.  What you experienced is relevant to you alone, and what the rest of us think doesn't really matter.  I suppose the relevant questions are: what did this mean to you, and how is it going to affect your life?

 

For what little it's worth, I call myself Hindu (you've mentioned some Hindu terms in this post), and I must say that I've never heard of anyone experience anything that effectively entailed fainting during a divine experience.  Not sure how much stock you put in any sort of organized religion, but if you have any then I would emphasize that God doesn't seem to be interested in inducing sycope.

[Guest r3alchild]

To answer everything and everyone. Its all a subjective experience I hold it as the same as eating a bad pizza and falling into a strange vision.

[VacuumFlux]

Spirituality is not the same thing as belief in the supernatural. I would quite comfortably call myself a spiritual materialst.

 

First of all, I find it strange that materialist beliefs are equated with the idea that any human being's experiences are anything less than real. I mean, as a materialist, I think that a rock is totally real and will hurt me if I stub my toe on it, even though I know that that rock is really a bunch of tiny atoms separates by vast quantities (well, vast compared to the size of an atom) of empty space. I know that a cow is "merely" an specific arangement of atoms into molecules into cells into tissues that is only held together by the constant burning of energy that the cow acquires by consuming food. There's plenty to be said about that arrangement of matter that makes a cow a cow, and plenty to be said about how that set of matter shuffles energy around that makes it a live cow instead of a dead cow. And just because my emotional experiences are created by a particular arangement of matter using energy in a particular way doesn't mean they're any less real. All my thoughts happen in the physical world, not in some alternate reality of a spirit realm. As such, I don't see why materialism is supposed to mean that some particular arrangements of matter and energy inside my head are more real than others. They may vary in their normalness and usefulness, but they're all real. And I find spiritual experiences to be incredibly useful, both in a personaly quality of life way and in mundane practical matters, without believing them to be supernatural.

 

I have found much of this comment thread confusing and frustrating, because it sounds like many people are arguing that if there's a materialistic explaination for why a brain ends up in a particularly unusual state that that state then cannot have any spiritual validity. To me, that sounds as silly as saying you're not really in a bad mood if it's hunger that's making you grumpy.

 

The human mind is capable of a wide range of states and experiences. We "switch gears" all the time in daily life when going from one task to another. Maybe the original poster accidentally went into a non-useful state and just needs to shake it off. Maybe he went into that state because he needed it for something and hasn't yet figured out what. My subconscious quite often informs me of things, like thoughts just fload to the surface with the feeling that I've known the information for quite a while but haven't been making use of it. Or like when you're stressed out, and if you don't find a way to deal with it it may build up to a panic attack. A panic attack isn't the most useful form of stress relief, but it is certainly a way for your brain to force you to deal with the fact that you have emotions that need attention.

 

I would agree with the earlier commenters who have said that the important question is what this experience does for you, not on the exact mechanisms that caused it. Now, figuring out those mechanisms can be a lot of fun sometimes, and may even be useful for figuring out what to do with it, and having a mechanism certainly contributions to the question of whether this was a supernatural event or not. But the question of mechanism is completely different from the question of meaning, or usefulness. I assume that most things posted in this forum are asking the second question.

 

Personally, I've experienced a lot of different states of consciousness, but not that particular one. It sounds like it would be a nice one to get to, if it happened in a controlled environment that didn't involving passing out on the stairs. I like feeling loved. I treat other people better when I don't feel desperate to force love (and/or affection, attention, approval, etc) from them, and get whiny and clinging (which is counter-productive) when I look for a sense of me-being-valuable from an outside source, instead of from inside of me.

[Antlerman]

To answer everything and everyone. Its all a subjective experience I hold it as the same as eating a bad pizza and falling into a strange vision.

Actually all experience is subjective.  It happens within you.  That's fine if you wish to view it as something to disregard.  Although I would say that experiencing infinite love like that is hardly what I'd consider insignificant.  Bad pizza?  Well, maybe pizza with psilocybin mushrooms and cheese!  Many would call that some really good pizza!  

 

Actually I thought of this that might help understand these sorts of, lets call them extraordinary experiences. I don't like the term supernatural very much myself as I really don't see them that way.  And I think this comes to why I am so puzzled by those who are asking is it a "real" experience or not.  Nobody has been able to answer me so far in the three times I've asked what exactly is meant by asking the question like that.  What do you mean is it a "real" experience?  If you had an actual expereince, its real.  

 

So here's what I think the stumbling block is for many in regard to experiences like these.  They were trained by their Christian experience to view these as sourced by something entirely outside themselves.  It is "God" doing a miracle.  So the question, was it real, is actually saying somehow "was it God or just me?  If it was my brain, than it's not God".  It is a radical dualistic mind that sees these as separate.  That is the mindset of Christian theology.  "It couldn't be from God because God wouldn't put you at risk of falling down the stairs".  Of course the experience happens in your brain, but it is a marvelous, stupendous, and phenomenal awakening experience for most people, regardless of what are where you attribute it to!  You can think of it like the psilocybin mushrooms I mentioned.  Oh course the experience began by ingesting those, but does someone then dismiss the experience as "just the mushrooms"?  The point of these in any sort of practice of a spiritual path is to open ones consciousness, to expand it, to move beyond the illusion of reality we embed ourselves within inside our skulls.  It expands the mind, and consequently the experience of life altogether.  That is not "just the mushrooms".

 

And so with these sort of spontaneous transcendent experiences that occur for whatever biological or chemical reason you care to attribute to them, they are to say the least a radical departure of perceptual awareness from the mundane.  These are real experiences, regardless of what source you attribute them to, natural or 'supernatural' (which to me are one and the same).  The end result of moving into such experiences, practicing putting yourself into the path of such experiences, is to lead to a perceptual understanding of the world that expands us far beyond just being stuck in our own little heads.  They are life-altering.  

 

But due to the rather arbitrary nature of these "peak experiences", a lot of people don't know how to integrate them into their lives, and I think that specifically is what I am hearing from you.  You don't know how to without attributing it to some sky-parent model of a supernatural deity, and such a deity is a negative to you because of all the Christian garbage that was hung on "God".  Does that sound about right?

 

I know this is long, but I think it is well worth the understanding for you.  It speaks of what goes on in the brain in these experiences  and compares them to these experiences the world over, which yours sounds like these, as well as my own.  Again, I suggest coming back to what I said about separating a mythological understanding of God from an extraordinary experience, without going the extreme opposite end of saying it was nothing, using that it was "just the brain" to dismiss it for yourself because it rattles the cage too much.  

 

[BlackCat]

Hi Chris, thanks for sharing your experience.  I have had a couple of similar experiences over the years, (whilst I was a Christian) and so I've given this topic a great deal of thought and study more so in the last three years.  Here is what I have concluded about this kind of thing:

 

All the main religions have the same kind of experiences or rather people physically react in similar ways due to an experience they have.   Here's a silly example: If we take sneezing as a physical action, regardless of race, gender or mental capacity, we all sneeze the same way, and the same things make us sneeze.   So I believe the same thing is causing people of different religious beliefs to: fall, go into trance-like states, feel emotionally different, shake, utter weird sounds, etc etc.   I believe all these 'manifestations' are known as 'kundalini arousal or awakening' in eastern religions.  There are now 'kundalini Christians' as these physical and mental phenomena  are now being recognised as the same experiences regardless of the religion you belong to or rather the religious beliefs you hold.  So what is kundalini (or known as the 'holy spirit' in Christian/judeo religions)?  I believe it is the physical and therefore mental reactions to beliefs and expectations about those beliefs.  The mind affects the body, and so it seems that the mental exercise of trying to connect with 'God'  produces the same results.  The activity in the brain seems to cause these various physical reactions.  The kundalini power is supposedly unleashed via the spine and through the various chakras.  I'm sure there's much truth to that: something physical that travels through your nervous system then affects your body.  One of my experiences involved shaking and feeling an energy bearing down on me.  My awareness was not affected and so I was 'amused' to feel this power and have this shaking that I couldn't control.  I just had to wait for it to stop.  As I have suffered panic attacks in the past, I know that you have to wait for the adrenalin and other chemicals and hormomes etc, to run their course through your system and put up with the unwanted physical and emotional 'attack' that you suffer while it's lasting.  Once the adrenalin is spent, you return to normal.  So too with my experience: once the 'shaktipat' ( being touched by the leader- in my case this was a few christians laying hands on me while they prayed) has ended, this experience runs it's course through your system.  The fact that only the people who attend these gatherings where this goes on, get affected by these experiences (the old lady walking her dog outside the church doesn't get slain in the spirit??) suggests to me or rather convinces me that we have subconsciously expected some kind of experience when attending these gatherings and certain 'state inducing' stimuli like chanting/praying, or minor chords on the key board, being touched by a person held as holy or in authority, all this convinces me it is not a supernatural force at play here, but a natural force that begins in the mind and works its way out through the body and hence all these similar experiences.   

[kolaida]

Spirituality is not the same thing as belief in the supernatural. I would quite comfortably call myself a spiritual materialst.

 

First of all, I find it strange that materialist beliefs are equated with the idea that any human being's experiences are anything less than real. I mean, as a materialist, I think that a rock is totally real and will hurt me if I stub my toe on it, even though I know that that rock is really a bunch of tiny atoms separates by vast quantities (well, vast compared to the size of an atom) of empty space. I know that a cow is "merely" an specific arangement of atoms into molecules into cells into tissues that is only held together by the constant burning of energy that the cow acquires by consuming food. There's plenty to be said about that arrangement of matter that makes a cow a cow, and plenty to be said about how that set of matter shuffles energy around that makes it a live cow instead of a dead cow. And just because my emotional experiences are created by a particular arangement of matter using energy in a particular way doesn't mean they're any less real. All my thoughts happen in the physical world, not in some alternate reality of a spirit realm. As such, I don't see why materialism is supposed to mean that some particular arrangements of matter and energy inside my head are more real than others. They may vary in their normalness and usefulness, but they're all real. And I find spiritual experiences to be incredibly useful, both in a personaly quality of life way and in mundane practical matters, without believing them to be supernatural.

 

I have found much of this comment thread confusing and frustrating, because it sounds like many people are arguing that if there's a materialistic explaination for why a brain ends up in a particularly unusual state that that state then cannot have any spiritual validity. To me, that sounds as silly as saying you're not really in a bad mood if it's hunger that's making you grumpy.

 

The human mind is capable of a wide range of states and experiences. We "switch gears" all the time in daily life when going from one task to another. Maybe the original poster accidentally went into a non-useful state and just needs to shake it off. Maybe he went into that state because he needed it for something and hasn't yet figured out what. My subconscious quite often informs me of things, like thoughts just fload to the surface with the feeling that I've known the information for quite a while but haven't been making use of it. Or like when you're stressed out, and if you don't find a way to deal with it it may build up to a panic attack. A panic attack isn't the most useful form of stress relief, but it is certainly a way for your brain to force you to deal with the fact that you have emotions that need attention.

 

I would agree with the earlier commenters who have said that the important question is what this experience does for you, not on the exact mechanisms that caused it. Now, figuring out those mechanisms can be a lot of fun sometimes, and may even be useful for figuring out what to do with it, and having a mechanism certainly contributions to the question of whether this was a supernatural event or not. But the question of mechanism is completely different from the question of meaning, or usefulness. I assume that most things posted in this forum are asking the second question.

 

Personally, I've experienced a lot of different states of consciousness, but not that particular one. It sounds like it would be a nice one to get to, if it happened in a controlled environment that didn't involving passing out on the stairs. I like feeling loved. I treat other people better when I don't feel desperate to force love (and/or affection, attention, approval, etc) from them, and get whiny and clinging (which is counter-productive) when I look for a sense of me-being-valuable from an outside source, instead of from inside of me.

 

Wow.  It's nice to see someone capable of so fluently explaining stuff like this. I've always had similar thoughts (rocks made up of atoms) but never really knew how to express them in any clear, concise way. However, I never did really did think of the brain and emotions and panic attacks.  I have them fairly often and never really knew WHY except for I need to figure out what's making me "moody." Do I need to eat, drink some water, etc?  Never really thought on it's because I have emotions that need to be dealt with. Thanks. 

 

As to the actual OP of the thread, I can't answer much.  Frankly, I feel like I'm just  gullible and trusting person and it takes a LOT of effort for me not to take people at their word.  I often thought I felt the "arms of god" comforting in my times of need. I'd see white light and feel very comforted.  But I think it's just because I believed it so much my brain activated the response I wanted?  I don't know, though. 

[Guest r3alchild]

Ok I was wrong about the pizza thing, I was ripping off a bit of jerry maguire. He he he, maybe my experience was more a bad super supreme than a bad veggi pizza. But it still tasted good goddamit!

[Antlerman]

Ok I was wrong about the pizza thing, I was ripping off a bit of jerry maguire. He he he, maybe my experience was more a bad super supreme than a bad veggi pizza. But it still tasted good goddamit!

Well that does get to my, as well as others, underlying point that the experience itself is what you look at. It's really secondary as to the cause, though an interesting discussion itself.

 

For myself when I was 18 and had my first experience like this, though very different circumstances, the struggle I had following it was how to find a way to understand it for myself. I actively sought that out talking to others, which eventually led me into some fundamentalist Christian church, only because I could see the zeal they had, whereas nobody else got it, understood or could relate to what I was saying, unlike those of us here who do. What I found in time is that my experience went beyond their religion, and on a deep internal level they didn't see what I had seen. It didn't mesh.

 

At this time in my life I wish I could have known what I know now, or speak to someone who actually did. I wonder how much of my life wouldn't have been so fraught with fits and starts trying to build upon those initial experiences. But I don't look on it with regret as we each have our path we have to go to learn for ourselves that way which works for us, where we are at, at each stage of our lives. Even though I started at the end, so to speak, the way to that for me took the path it needed to. You may at times be on a fast path, but there are no actual shortcuts. "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." That's pretty much my story in a nutshell.

[RankStranger]

Have you ever grabbed onto an electric fence to see how long you can hold on?  THAT is a powerful experience.

[Bhim]

I have found much of this comment thread confusing and frustrating, because it sounds like many people are arguing that if there's a materialistic explaination for why a brain ends up in a particularly unusual state that that state then cannot have any spiritual validity. To me, that sounds as silly as saying you're not really in a bad mood if it's hunger that's making you grumpy.

 

Fair point.  I'm so used to assuming the existence of the supernatural (this long predates my mistake of conversion to Christianity) that I often neglect the interpretation of these experiences in a purely natural world.

 

True, such experiences as these can have meaning in the absence of a supernatural cause, but I suppose that if we adopt a naturalist/materialist model then the spiritual benefit is best quantified by its effect on the person's life.  Maybe this is more productive.  It forces the person to ask, "OK, everything is made of love, so what am I going to actually do about it?"  It also avoids endless speculation about what the experience indicates regarding God's nature, attributes, etc.

 

Of course I'm no longer sure what the word "spiritual" means here, but oh well.

[VacuumFlux]

 

I have found much of this comment thread confusing and frustrating, because it sounds like many people are arguing that if there's a materialistic explaination for why a brain ends up in a particularly unusual state that that state then cannot have any spiritual validity. To me, that sounds as silly as saying you're not really in a bad mood if it's hunger that's making you grumpy.

 

Fair point.  I'm so used to assuming the existence of the supernatural (this long predates my mistake of conversion to Christianity) that I often neglect the interpretation of these experiences in a purely natural world.

 

True, such experiences as these can have meaning in the absence of a supernatural cause, but I suppose that if we adopt a naturalist/materialist model then the spiritual benefit is best quantified by its effect on the person's life.  Maybe this is more productive.  It forces the person to ask, "OK, everything is made of love, so what am I going to actually do about it?"  It also avoids endless speculation about what the experience indicates regarding God's nature, attributes, etc.

 

Of course I'm no longer sure what the word "spiritual" means here, but oh well.

 

I'm really not sure of what the word "spiritual" means either, but I know it's a word that's associated with things that are important to me, that I find valuable even from a materialistic point of view, but that often gets lumped in with supernatural things. It's about all the questions I have that fit in the Ex-Christian Spirituality forum better than in Ex-Christian Life (perhaps because some people are just personality-wise drawn to the spiritual, and I feel like people who hang out in the spirituality forum are more likely to "get it"). Some of it is personal development, but there's plenty of non-spiritual self-help stuff out there. The spiritual seems to be more about... experiencing altered states of consciousness, maybe? Not necessarily like drug type states, just... playing around with your internal world using symbols to try to understand yourself and gain self-control. There can also be a social apsect of it - what I miss most about identifying as a christian is group singing, that feeling of unity from that many people acting with "one mind". Logic is nice and all, but critical thinking is only a very small part of what it feels like to be human.

 

Sometimes spirituality is about seeking emotional highs (awe, feeling loved, feeling at one with everything, etc) in a safe, controlled manner, and making sure I get something useful out of it instead of just treating those feelings like a recreational drug, about know how to integrate those feelings into my life without becoming addicted and using them to run away from life. It's about using ritual to alter my mood. I really like rituals, they're powerful. Now, being a materialist I don't believe I'm tapping into power from some other plane of existence, but I do believe I'm tapping into the power of me, of my mind, in order to bring about real change in myself. Or just a mantra, like the kind in a language I don't speak where I have to pay close attention to get the sounds just right, and it takes an effort to remember exactly what they all stand for, and there's that mix of focusing on the sounds and meanings and getting lost in the repetition. It's about a feeling of something Big and Meaningful that I can hold on to when my emotions are a mess, a feeling that getting my life straightened out is Important. It's that really annoying experience at the end of existentialist novels that the main character gets to feel, that makes their life worth living, that is so personal that you the reader can't go through it vicariously (even though the main character dragged you through the whole miserable existential crisis with them).

 

I do agree that I approach spirituality much more pragmatically than some supernatural-believing people do. I quit asking myself what it all means and just ask myself what it can do for me. I learned that from some Buddhist writings that said that the test of good spiritual teaching is whether or not it's useful (and usefulness of a teaching can vary from person to person, and over a person's lifetime). After coming from a fundametalist background that valued everyone having the same right dogma over being a good person, it's quite a relief to me to feel ok just trying to be a better person. I no longer approach a spiritual practice wondering "is this The One Right Way?" but by asking "is this going to be good for me right now?" It also gives me the freedom to learn about other people's paths that wouldn't work for me and not get upset wondering which one of us is wrong.

[Bhim]

I'm really not sure of what the word "spiritual" means either, but I know it's a word that's associated with things that are important to me, that I find valuable even from a materialistic point of view, but that often gets lumped in with supernatural things. It's about all the questions I have that fit in the Ex-Christian Spirituality forum better than in Ex-Christian Life (perhaps because some people are just personality-wise drawn to the spiritual, and I feel like people who hang out in the spirituality forum are more likely to "get it"). Some of it is personal development, but there's plenty of non-spiritual self-help stuff out there. The spiritual seems to be more about... experiencing altered states of consciousness, maybe? Not necessarily like drug type states, just... playing around with your internal world using symbols to try to understand yourself and gain self-control. There can also be a social apsect of it - what I miss most about identifying as a christian is group singing, that feeling of unity from that many people acting with "one mind". Logic is nice and all, but critical thinking is only a very small part of what it feels like to be human.

 

The idea of the spiritual as an altered state of mind may be a better generalized definition to work with, here.  The spiritual by nature supercedes mere logical reasoning, since reason alone can't help a person to understand their place in the world or purpose in life.  I'm also definitely agreed on this not necessarily referring to drug-induced states.  Nothing against the pot-smokers here, but my interaction with stoners has not suggested to me that drugs expose a person's mind to anything of particular profundity.  But having had no direct experience with this, what do I know?

 

Interesting thing with the role of logic, though.  When I was a Christian I was of the Reformed/Calvinist bent.  Probably what kept me in the religion for so long was the emphasis on the use of logic and the value that was placed on the intellect.  I was so used to academic pursuit at work that it was rather convenient to continue to do so in my religious life.  Now as you may know I was raised Hindu and thus had a religious context for spirituality prior to Christianity.  These days I likewise find myself deeply interested in the academic study of Hinduism.  I even do the rituals for the sake of a greater intellectual awareness of the religion.  As for "spirituality" though, I don't really find much use for prayer or communication with God or other supernatural power.  It could be that there's a differentiation to be made between religion and spirituality.  Because at the moment I'm not too interested in these altered states of consciousness (which is not to say that such exploration isn't important).

 

Sometimes spirituality is about seeking emotional highs (awe, feeling loved, feeling at one with everything, etc) in a safe, controlled manner, and making sure I get something useful out of it instead of just treating those feelings like a recreational drug, about know how to integrate those feelings into my life without becoming addicted and using them to run away from life. It's about using ritual to alter my mood. I really like rituals, they're powerful. Now, being a materialist I don't believe I'm tapping into power from some other plane of existence, but I do believe I'm tapping into the power of me, of my mind, in order to bring about real change in myself. Or just a mantra, like the kind in a language I don't speak where I have to pay close attention to get the sounds just right, and it takes an effort to remember exactly what they all stand for, and there's that mix of focusing on the sounds and meanings and getting lost in the repetition. It's about a feeling of something Big and Meaningful that I can hold on to when my emotions are a mess, a feeling that getting my life straightened out is Important. It's that really annoying experience at the end of existentialist novels that the main character gets to feel, that makes their life worth living, that is so personal that you the reader can't go through it vicariously (even though the main character dragged you through the whole miserable existential crisis with them).

 

I do agree that I approach spirituality much more pragmatically than some supernatural-believing people do. I quit asking myself what it all means and just ask myself what it can do for me. I learned that from some Buddhist writings that said that the test of good spiritual teaching is whether or not it's useful (and usefulness of a teaching can vary from person to person, and over a person's lifetime). After coming from a fundametalist background that valued everyone having the same right dogma over being a good person, it's quite a relief to me to feel ok just trying to be a better person. I no longer approach a spiritual practice wondering "is this The One Right Way?" but by asking "is this going to be good for me right now?" It also gives me the freedom to learn about other people's paths that wouldn't work for me and not get upset wondering which one of us is wrong.

 

Well there's something to be said for this pragmatic approach.  With regards to religion, I've independently come to the conclusion that "is it true?" is less important than "does it work?"  It would be convenient if at least one religion in this world actually corresponded to reality and could be demonstrably proven true.  Pending such proof, atheism is likely the most logical option.  But even given that stipulation, I would defend the practice of religion (except Christianity) due to its power to bring about positive change.  Logical consistency is great, but if a religion based on false premises nonetheless has some net positive impact, I would say that it has value.  As you say, this approach has the advantage of not having to worry about whose beliefs are true and whose are false.

[Antlerman]

Some of it is personal development, but there's plenty of non-spiritual self-help stuff out there. The spiritual seems to be more about... experiencing altered states of consciousness, maybe? Not necessarily like drug type states, just... playing around with your internal world using symbols to try to understand yourself and gain self-control.

Yes to this. It is just this. It is about personal development that I would say deeply accelerates that process for just the reasons you state. I always recount how I said when I first started practicing meditation within a short period of time for me it felt like I just went through five years of deep psychotherapy. All that psychotherapy does is to try to get you do find those answers within yourself. In finding a voice to them, coming to know yourself and begin to deal with all that in there, both the negative and the positive, we become freer in our minds and emotions and the experience of our lives becomes more rooted and grounded, and more connected. And that describes the spiritual experience of life. It's not something based in a belief, nor an emotion, but rather a sense of being that touches every aspect of our lives.

There can also be a social apsect of it - what I miss most about identifying as a christian is group singing, that feeling of unity from that many people acting with "one mind".

The spiritual in a social context is important as well, but that "one mind" should be the common shared experience of connection to the fabric of existence, not some common belief. It is true there will be common, agreed upon practices as part of group cohesion, but when those become the defining characteristics that creates that sense of community they then become a substitute for actual unity.

Sometimes spirituality is about seeking emotional highs (awe, feeling loved, feeling at one with everything, etc) in a safe, controlled manner, and making sure I get something useful out of it instead of just treating those feelings like a recreational drug, about know how to integrate those feelings into my life without becoming addicted and using them to run away from life. It's about using ritual to alter my mood. I really like rituals, they're powerful.

This is good. I think the important thing to bear in mind is that it is not seeking an emotional high that you're after, but rather insight. The emotions may accompany that as when you uncover crap and release it there is naturally an emotional high that comes with that. You're moving into states of experiencing unconditional love, and that is quite powerful. But the key is not to seek the experience. If you seek the experience, than you are focusing on yourself, on 'getting high'. You are avoiding the inner work through experience seeking, in other words. But as you release yourself into it, empty yourself of expectations and wants, what is always there becomes exposed, and the work begins.

 

Believe me, the spiritual is not about getting high. It's hard, painful work. It's like training the body. The rewards are health and a more whole sense of being.

I do agree that I approach spirituality much more pragmatically than some supernatural-believing people do. I quit asking myself what it all means and just ask myself what it can do for me. I learned that from some Buddhist writings that said that the test of good spiritual teaching is whether or not it's useful (and usefulness of a teaching can vary from person to person, and over a person's lifetime). After coming from a fundametalist background that valued everyone having the same right dogma over being a good person, it's quite a relief to me to feel ok just trying to be a better person. I no longer approach a spiritual practice wondering "is this The One Right Way?" but by asking "is this going to be good for me right now?" It also gives me the freedom to learn about other people's paths that wouldn't work for me and not get upset wondering which one of us is wrong.

I think the important realization is that we have come to see that the symbols are not about being literal facts, as though somehow that's important to the practice. The use of deity symbols can have a genuine psychological benefit when approached as representing aspects of our higher self we aspire to know in us, or that acts of devotion and prostration to such higher forms serves as a symbolic action of the ego to lay itself down, to not take the center-stage of our lives and to allow what is beyond that to become realized in ourselves. We respond psychologically to symbolic action. We live in a world full of such symbols. These are simply a certain transcendent set of symbols toward a specific growth direction in ourselves.

 

Even in those that believe in them literally they are functioning to a degree this way. When they begin to see them as not just 'outside' ourselves, but within ourselves is when the real depths begin to open and the gods fade away, or rather into us as we become them.

[Roxie]

Antlerman,

 

I have just read your response and I also went back and read what you linked.  I must say, my jaw dropped.  This is the first time I have ever heard of someone having an experience like I had.

 

I will spare you most of  the boring details, but what you said really struck me.

 

I was in the midst of some pretty terrible life changing stuff, completely out of my control.  One day, as I was standing in in back yard, waiting for my dog to finish his business, I felt something like a mild shock, followed by a feeling of warmth around my whole body.  In that same instance I heard (not audibly, but in my own head) say, "You are not alone.  I am always with you."  Then the voice and the warm feeling around me, ended, but everything felt different.  Like you said, everything seemed so much more "there" so much more "alive".  And I felt the most amazing love I had ever felt that seemed to come from everything and everywhere.

 

I just stood there staring across the field.  Was is God, Jesus, a guardian angel?  All of which would have made no sense, as I left Christianity a long time ago and Christianity never felt like that, for me.  If it had, I probably would have never left it.  Who or what was that?  Was I losing my mind?

 

I don't have an answer and I've never spoken of it.  But after reading your posts and seeing that you described something so similar to what I experienced, I just wanted to tell you I've had this happen, too.

 

I'm sure to get some cutting remarks about this, but  I know something happened to me and I'm glad to know it has happened to someone else, too.  Makes me feel a little less crazy.

 

 

To the OP:  Maybe you did have some sort of spiritual experience. 

[Antlerman]

Antlerman,

 

I have just read your response and I also went back and read what you linked.  I must say, my jaw dropped.  This is the first time I have ever heard of someone having an experience like I had.

It may be the first time you've heard anyone talk about it. As a point I made earlier, these are fairly common experiences, but many people tuck it away somewhere because for whatever reason they aren't ready to open to it. It truly does rock ones sense of themselves and the world, and to go with it, to go off exploring into it, is truly to push off from the shore in a vessel away from friends and family - unless you're lucky and have those who can relate and support you in your journey. Or, you're just so compelled to know you must know, no matter what.

 

There is a saying that states you should seek enlightenment like those who seek a river whose hair is on fire. That describes me fairly well. After that Taste, there is no other that satisfies. It's hard for me to relate to those who tuck it away, but that is there path, not mine.

I will spare you most of  the boring details, but what you said really struck me.

 

I was in the midst of some pretty terrible life changing stuff, completely out of my control.  One day, as I was standing in in back yard, waiting for my dog to finish his business, I felt something like a mild shock, followed by a feeling of warmth around my whole body.  In that same instance I heard (not audibly, but in my own head) say, "You are not alone.  I am always with you."  Then the voice and the warm feeling around me, ended, but everything felt different.  Like you said, everything seemed so much more "there" so much more "alive".  And I felt the most amazing love I had ever felt that seemed to come from everything and everywhere.

Yep. As I said,these are common experiences. Compare what you said, with what I said, with what the OP said:

 

"Then all of a sudden I felt like I was hit by a surge of electricity. It felt like a snap, then all I could see was a endless white room and I could fell everything was made of love. It was so strong I didnt care if I never left."

 

These descriptions are common. I'll add too of course that these, what you may properly call Peak Experiences, often occur during some sort of existential crisis, even if it is not burning in the forefront of you minds thoughts, and rather simmering deep beneath the surface.

 

My analogy is to say imagine holding a slingshot in your hand with its two forks on a horizontal plane. Now you begin pulling down on the band towards the ground with greater and greater tension. Make this analogous to the inner stress of your psyche in existential crisis, deep sense of questions of who am I, what is my life about, why do I feel alienated from the world, others, and myself, etc. That is a great deal of pressure on the 'soul', so to speak. Then finally, arbitrarily, some little thing, even a gnat, something you can't even pinpoint, causes you to release that band you're pulling down to the point of snapping it in your hands, and BOOM! It explodes in a sudden upward thrust like a bolt of lightning, shooting way above where you are holding the slingshot in your hand and sails straight up into the sky, into the clouds, touching as it were the face of God! You released your mind momentarily beyond your tightly constricted world, beyond you normal understanding of the world, into an open and clear space freed of all obstructions. You saw above the clouds and looked directly at "What Is"!

 

Now of course the rubber band falls back down to earth, and eventually stabilizes at the level you are holding the slingshot in your hand. The tension has been released, but you're just back to "normal" know, and wonder to yourself how do I touch above the clouds again? That, is the path of spiritual growth that then follows, where through deep inner work and practice, the height at which you are holding that slingshot in your hand moves upward closer to the sky. The peak experiences are no longer peaks, but the world as it is. They become "normal" reality. You see that Love, unobstructed by the clouds. But all this is a process of when you are ready and able to take those steps away from the illusions of safety and security in the familiar we like call the "real world". Another common thing with those who experience what we've describe is that they see that as far more real than anything we call real in our 'normal' life. I'm sure you recognize that.

I just stood there staring across the field.  Was is God, Jesus, a guardian angel?  All of which would have made no sense, as I left Christianity a long time ago and Christianity never felt like that, for me.  If it had, I probably would have never left it.  Who or what was that?  Was I losing my mind?

 

I don't have an answer and I've never spoken of it.  But after reading your posts and seeing that you described something so similar to what I experienced, I just wanted to tell you I've had this happen, too.

That's wonderful. I'm so happy you feel safe enough to share this. I can go into great length here explaining my thoughts about the forms these things take, and that's a fascinating discussion to be sure. But no, you were not loosing your mind. The mind tries to supply a bridge to help translate the experience with your mind's means of trying to 'understand'. It takes high symbolic forms, archetypes to represent these things. Again, this is common and is not a dysfunction of the mind at all! This is part of that part of moving beyond our 'normal' reality into a higher awareness that we don't quite yet have a language to understand it. At best, understand it as an apprehension, like putting your hand into a fire. You gain direct knowledge of the reality of the flame, even though your mind can't fully comprehend the technical details of it. The experience opened you. Eventually these forms, these symbols themselves disappear, and all that is left is Truth. What you experienced was that Truth beyond forms. But that Truth takes many forms, none of which are that itself.

 

I know that's probably a strain to follow what that means, but trust me it becomes evident as to what that means in time.

I'm sure to get some cutting remarks about this, but  I know something happened to me and I'm glad to know it has happened to someone else, too.  Makes me feel a little less crazy.

Well, I'm very happy and pleased you can share like this. I'm one of the mods here and we're committed to making this forum a safe place for people to talk about these things. There is spirituality beyond our religious past, and its important for many people like yourself and me to be free to be true to that in ourselves.

[RankStranger]

Antlerman,

 

I have just read your response and I also went back and read what you linked.  I must say, my jaw dropped.  This is the first time I have ever heard of someone having an experience like I had.

 

I will spare you most of  the boring details, but what you said really struck me.

 

I was in the midst of some pretty terrible life changing stuff, completely out of my control.  One day, as I was standing in in back yard, waiting for my dog to finish his business, I felt something like a mild shock, followed by a feeling of warmth around my whole body.  In that same instance I heard (not audibly, but in my own head) say, "You are not alone.  I am always with you."  Then the voice and the warm feeling around me, ended, but everything felt different.  Like you said, everything seemed so much more "there" so much more "alive".  And I felt the most amazing love I had ever felt that seemed to come from everything and everywhere.

 

I just stood there staring across the field.  Was is God, Jesus, a guardian angel?  All of which would have made no sense, as I left Christianity a long time ago and Christianity never felt like that, for me.  If it had, I probably would have never left it.  Who or what was that?  Was I losing my mind?

 

I don't have an answer and I've never spoken of it.  But after reading your posts and seeing that you described something so similar to what I experienced, I just wanted to tell you I've had this happen, too.

 

I'm sure to get some cutting remarks about this, but  I know something happened to me and I'm glad to know it has happened to someone else, too.  Makes me feel a little less crazy.

 

 

To the OP:  Maybe you did have some sort of spiritual experience.

 

 

My mother in law has had similar experiences.  Her daughter died in a car accident years ago, and she has SEEN her daughter multiple times.  Matter of fact, everybody in the family has.  She's seen and experienced other things too since then.  She isn't making this up- she's a non-nonsense kind of person.  Something very real has happened here.

 

What is that something?  But you're definitely not alone in this kind of experience.

[Antlerman]

My mother in law has had similar experiences.  Her daughter died in a car accident years ago, and she has SEEN her daughter multiple times.  Matter of fact, everybody in the family has.  She's seen and experienced other things too since then.  She isn't making this up- she's a non-nonsense kind of person.  Something very real has happened here.

Those are actually a different type of experience that I would not classify as peak experiences. What was described by Roxie, the OP, and myself, does not directly relate to this sort of experience. I place these into a different sort of phenomena.

[Roxie]

Quote  Antlerman:   There is a saying that states you should seek enlightenment like those
who seek a river whose hair is on fire. That describes me fairly well.
After that Taste, there is no other that satisfies. It's hard for me to
relate to those who tuck it away, but that is there path, not mine.

 

 

 

YES!!!  Exactly!

 

 

 

 

Quote Anterlman:  Well, I'm very happy and pleased you can share like this. I'm one of the
mods here and we're committed to making this forum a safe place for
people to talk about these things. There is spirituality beyond our
religious past, and its important for many people like yourself and me
to be free to be true to that in ourselves.

 

 

Thank you for allowing me to express this without judgement and ridicule.