Science and religion both side of the same coin?

[willybilly30]

maybe the energy is the creator and everything is a part of it.

 

 

 

Who said it came from nothing?

 

We are all just energy, willy...since energy can neither be created nor destroyed as far as we know, nothing

began to exist.

 

 

i know that the body dies but what happens to you? i guess if its the brain it no longer exists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't believe it, it's a fact that we die, willy. Our brains are who we are. If that dies, then we aren't who we are. Maybe the collection of matter that makes up "us" is gone, but that matter is still there and will never go away.

 

i dont believe in the bible

i believe in evolution

i believe something started it.

 

Why?

 

 

cause look at the world your computer came from something, you came from your parents, it just seems like everything has a starting point and is born from something else. but i could be wrong maybe the universe was always here and nothing started it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

what is IIRC?

the idea of an afterlife and seeing family whose died and living forever is such a hard idea to give up.

having no proof of it is also scary if you die you wonder if your going to a after life or cease to exist.

i think death is my biggest fear i think i fear it more than anything on earth that could happen to me.

i dont know how to deal with it.

 

Wishful thinking, willy. Most people want to live forever so they make up an "afterlife".

 

very true i mean theirs nothing to prove it so its wishful thinking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i was wondering about life after physical death what do you think happens their?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

what would that mean? being reborn?

When you go to sleep at night, the life (spirit) in you "dies" temporarily. When you awake, that energy comes back to "life".

 

When they are speaking of spiritually dying, they are meaning that your efforts in life, your spirit, has dwindled and isn't likely to return. If you give up on trying to live, then you have "died" even though your body still functions, you have lost your spirit.

 

To be "reborn" means that you have given up on your prior spirit of life, the prior ways of behaving and prior priorities. Then you accept a new way to live with a new set of priorities. This tends to change your character. It also changes the way that you look at life and the way you handle problems.

 

To be reborn simply means that you start your life over, giving prior concerns no regard. To be reborn "in Christ" means to drop all prior worries and accept Jesus' way of handling life (not a fundy's).

 

A person could be reborn into Satanism or Nazism, or Socialism, or Mohammadism, or Buddhism,...

[Ssel]

i was wondering about life after physical death what do you think happens their?

For what its worth, your "soul" refers to your most fundamental efforts (spirit) of your life. To the Jew, this refers mostly to your children and family linage, this is why they end up being racist. To Jesus (not necessarily the Christian) this refers to what truly concerns you and all people the most whether your family linage is involved or not.

 

What concerns a person most is sometimes the future of world. When the efforts that you make help to lead humanity toward a better world, then that is where your soul "goes". When your efforts in life lead toward a more hellacious world, then that is where your soul "goes" (leads and lends toward).

 

If you were to record all history and then go back to see who was helping versus who was hindering, your fundamental efforts would be recorded as being a "part of the construct of heaven, or a part of the construct of hell"

 

Or you could think of it as a business that you started and truly wanted to keep going even after you die. Will the business help to create a world where it is constantly struggling to stay in business, or will the business help to create a world where staying in that business is easy. - Heaven or Hell

 

This your "after-life"

 

The methodology of Satan, after the war with Michael (michah-eel = voice of God) was determined to be something that creates a hell. Thus, "Satan reigns over Hell."

 

The stories about God are not about punishments for doing "bad", but about consequences for not being more careful of what you are causing.

"You" are more than just what is inside that body. "You" includes all that you have created and utilized as a part of your harmony. Your spirit extends outside of your body. It includes your children, any business efforts, any effects you began in the world, everything you had affect on, carries a bit of what they mean by "you or your soul". Your "soul" is refering to the foundation efforts that your spirit springs from. Your spirit rises and falls by the hour. You soul, like the sole of your shoe, is what all else is built upon.

 

So, your "after-life" is refering to what continuing efforts or legacy that you leave behind when your body dies. The spirit within your body does the same as a computer program, it simply dissapates. But the effects that you created while you lived continue to have affect long after your body has turned to dust.

 

Your energy can not be lost, it merely dissapates to a degree or it continues in the form of the things that you started or had affect on. Thus every living thing has a "soul" to a degree. The big question is, "What comes of it?" Is it merely lost to the chaos of the world (the abyss), or does it keep having effect for thousands of years, or forever?

[willybilly30]

unless your somebody really famous the stuff you have done in life will probally be forgotten years from now.

so after your family and freinds that you know now die that would mean your memory is gone.

whats the use in religion or believing in a god if they wont provide an afterlife?

[Ouroboros]

what is IIRC?

"If I Recall Correctly"

[Ssel]

whats the use in religion or believing in a god if they wont provide an afterlife?

Does science offer an afterlife? What is the point in believing in science if it doesn’t offer an afterlife?

 

A boy once gave a Christmas gift to a girl, but he slipped it into her purse such as to make it a surprise. Before the girl found the present, the card slipped off and she didn’t know it was from him. When he saw her again, she paid no special attention to him and he felt disappointed and a little hurt. He never mentioned the present and didn’t pursue her any more. He thought to himself, “what a waste.”

 

He threw some bird feed out in his yard one day and sat quietly to watch the birds come. When they came, they ate the seeds, but then they noticed him watching, they quickly flew away. “What a waste” he thought.

 

One day a starving, sickly dog wondered into his yard. He grabbed a piece of bread and went outside to feed the dog. The scared starving dog hesitantly came close and snatched the bread from his hand and ran away. “Well, thank you too!” he yelled at the dog. “What a waste.” he thought.

 

He got married and had 2 children. But soon his wife grew bitter and hateful. One day, she took the young children and from another state sued for custody and won. “My children will probably never know me. What a waste.” he thought.

 

A nearby church talked him into donating money for the orphaned children from the surrounding neighborhood. When he wrote out the check, he asked how the children know it was from him. He was told that the children never know who has donated nor how much. The next day when the man awoke, he thought to himself, “What a waste of my money. They don’t even know who to thank.”

 

At his job he saw a woman begin to fall from a swaying ladder and without thinking, he quickly steadied the ladder for her. She looked down and thanked him then went on about her business. He realized that he hardly ever sees that woman and that she doesn’t even know his name. “I could have been sued or something. What a waste.” he thought.

 

As he walked to his car he heard honking from the street. Looking over, he saw 2 girls sitting in a stalled car blocking traffic. He casually walked over to their drivers door. Without looking at them at all, he reached in and pulled the hood latch. Under the hood, he immediately saw the problem. A critical vacuum hose had come loose. He slipped it back into place and while watching the engine, motioned for them to start it. It started right up and he closed the hood. Not even giving them a glance, he turned and walk away. Just as he got to his car he glanced at them driving off. They were giggling as young girls often do. He shook his head and thought, “What a waste.”

 

One day he came home and noticed his neighbors on top of their roof in a heavy rain apparently trying to fix a hole. He gave them some spare materials he happen to have handy and helped them to make a hasty repair. The neighbors didn’t know him very well but thanked him. It wasn’t long before the neighbors moved away. He later thought to himself, “What a waste.”

 

When he was older, he heard a younger couple arguing angrily in a parking lot. She seemed so hateful, it reminded him of his once wife. He diplomatically interrupted them to ask them a few questions. He was surprised how he managed to skillfully remind them of why they ever got married. Before he was finished talking, he could see that they had calmed down and were realizing how silly their argument was becoming. When he got back into his car and watched them drive off, he realized they will never see him again. “What a waste of my time.” He thought.

 

One day he got ill and was too old to handle it well. He was certain that he was dying as he laid in the hospital bed. A nurse came in to give him some medicine. “Don’t waste that on me” he said. The nurse smiled and said, “Oh don’t you worry its being paid for by your insurance company.” He thought, “Well good, its about time I got something from those bastards.”

 

The next day, he felt for sure it was his last. He couldn’t help but think what a total waste his entire life has been “..and for what?” As he struggled with what little strength he had left to get comfortable, his pillow slipped onto the floor. There was a woman visiting the man in the bed next to him. She reached over, picked up his pillow and helped him to get comfortable.

 

She seemed to be smiling far too much as she helped him. He thought to ask, “Why are you doing this? Why are you bothering with an old dying man like me?” She smiled at him and said, “Oh, come on, you look smarter than that. I enjoy helping people with their time on earth and seeing life grow. I know I’m just going to die one day myself. I’m not stupid, I wasn’t born just to serve myself. If I’m just going to die anyway, what would be the point? And if I only lived for me, I would have to think what a waste my entire life had been.”

 

How often looks can be deceiving and how sad it is to help others and have no idea why your doing it.

[willybilly30]

why did he think it was a waste of time.

i get a feeling of joy knowing i have helped someone made someone happy.

i have noticed when you help someone you will be helped if you need it. now this dont always happen but sometimes. like at my job i have helped people and in return if they see im having trouble. this guy should think atleast he made someone happy and helped someone out. i have gave money to the men ringing bells for the homeless lots of times and the homeless will never know me. but when i think they may can buy them a blanket to keep warm or help them get food to eat i feel good inside.

i see your point i think. i mean i may not get a pie in the sky reward for doing good when i die. but here and now i can get the good feeling i have helped people and gave someone joy in their life winch brings me joy.

i need to focus on what i can do now in this life. when you give others joy you have joy i always notice you feel how the person next to you feels and sometimes you will get a freind that way. i think this life has its own rewards. i like the idea i have heard once that were all connected were all one big family so how you make everyone feel is how you will feel. and i like the idea if you do good you will get good in return. its like a boomerang what you do in this world is what you get back.

i dont really know what to think about god or the afterlife everything i know can be disproven i used to think i had all the answers but seen i couldnt prove any of them and now i see i have no answers ongly questions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

whats the use in religion or believing in a god if they wont provide an afterlife?

Does science offer an afterlife? What is the point in believing in science if it doesn’t offer an afterlife?

 

A boy once gave a Christmas gift to a girl, but he slipped it into her purse such as to make it a surprise. Before the girl found the present, the card slipped off and she didn’t know it was from him. When he saw her again, she paid no special attention to him and he felt disappointed and a little hurt. He never mentioned the present and didn’t pursue her any more. He thought to himself, “what a waste.”

 

He threw some bird feed out in his yard one day and sat quietly to watch the birds come. When they came, they ate the seeds, but then they noticed him watching, they quickly flew away. “What a waste” he thought.

 

One day a starving, sickly dog wondered into his yard. He grabbed a piece of bread and went outside to feed the dog. The scared starving dog hesitantly came close and snatched the bread from his hand and ran away. “Well, thank you too!” he yelled at the dog. “What a waste.” he thought.

 

He got married and had 2 children. But soon his wife grew bitter and hateful. One day, she took the young children and from another state sued for custody and won. “My children will probably never know me. What a waste.” he thought.

 

A nearby church talked him into donating money for the orphaned children from the surrounding neighborhood. When he wrote out the check, he asked how the children know it was from him. He was told that the children never know who has donated nor how much. The next day when the man awoke, he thought to himself, “What a waste of my money. They don’t even know who to thank.”

 

At his job he saw a woman begin to fall from a swaying ladder and without thinking, he quickly steadied the ladder for her. She looked down and thanked him then went on about her business. He realized that he hardly ever sees that woman and that she doesn’t even know his name. “I could have been sued or something. What a waste.” he thought.

 

As he walked to his car he heard honking from the street. Looking over, he saw 2 girls sitting in a stalled car blocking traffic. He casually walked over to their drivers door. Without looking at them at all, he reached in and pulled the hood latch. Under the hood, he immediately saw the problem. A critical vacuum hose had come loose. He slipped it back into place and while watching the engine, motioned for them to start it. It started right up and he closed the hood. Not even giving them a glance, he turned and walk away. Just as he got to his car he glanced at them driving off. They were giggling as young girls often do. He shook his head and thought, “What a waste.”

 

One day he came home and noticed his neighbors on top of their roof in a heavy rain apparently trying to fix a hole. He gave them some spare materials he happen to have handy and helped them to make a hasty repair. The neighbors didn’t know him very well but thanked him. It wasn’t long before the neighbors moved away. He later thought to himself, “What a waste.”

 

When he was older, he heard a younger couple arguing angrily in a parking lot. She seemed so hateful, it reminded him of his once wife. He diplomatically interrupted them to ask them a few questions. He was surprised how he managed to skillfully remind them of why they ever got married. Before he was finished talking, he could see that they had calmed down and were realizing how silly their argument was becoming. When he got back into his car and watched them drive off, he realized they will never see him again. “What a waste of my time.” He thought.

 

One day he got ill and was too old to handle it well. He was certain that he was dying as he laid in the hospital bed. A nurse came in to give him some medicine. “Don’t waste that on me” he said. The nurse smiled and said, “Oh don’t you worry its being paid for by your insurance company.” He thought, “Well good, its about time I got something from those bastards.”

 

The next day, he felt for sure it was his last. He couldn’t help but think what a total waste his entire life has been “..and for what?” As he struggled with what little strength he had left to get comfortable, his pillow slipped onto the floor. There was a woman visiting the man in the bed next to him. She reached over, picked up his pillow and helped him to get comfortable.

 

She seemed to be smiling far too much as she helped him. He thought to ask, “Why are you doing this? Why are you bothering with an old dying man like me?” She smiled at him and said, “Oh, come on, you looked smarter than that. I enjoy helping people with their time on earth and seeing life grow. I know I’m just going to die one day myself. I’m not stupid, I wasn’t born just to serve myself. If I’m just going to die anyway, what would be the point? And if I only lived for me, I would have to think what a waste my entire life had been.”

 

How sad it is to help others and have no idea why your doing it.

[Ssel]

why did he think it was a waste of time.

i get a feeling of joy knowing i have helped someone made someone happy.

So you helped other just you could receive help yourself or it made you feel good for some reason?

 

So you do it just to feel good or you do it just to get help yourself sometime.

 

Hmmm... What's missing here..

 

If your just going to die anyway, then why bother with getting any help? Ahhhh... n/m, it's to feel good, right?

 

So your really just living for the purpose of feeling good.

 

So why do you care what happens when you die?

 

And have you ever wondered exactly why it is that helping others causes that "feel good" thing? Why do you try to live? You know that your not going to anyway, so why try at all? Why do you feel the urge to do ANY thing? Just happens, right? No explanation except what science offers as chemical analysis.

 

The idea of evolution tells you why to all of those feelings you have. The idea of evoution tells you why you were born. And just to feel good, isn't on its list.

[willybilly30]

So you do it just to feel good or you do it just to get help yourself sometime.

 

no i do it because i care about people i want everyone to be happy and survive. i dont like seeing people suffer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If your just going to die anyway, then why bother with getting any help? Ahhhh... n/m, it's to feel good, right?

 

i dont know

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So your really just living for the purpose of feeling good.

no im living cause my body is working

 

 

 

So why do you care what happens when you die?

because i love my life and dont want to leave it

 

 

 

And have you ever wondered exactly why it is that helping others causes that "feel good" thing?

 

yes

 

 

Why do you try to live? You know that your not going to anyway, so why try at all? Why do you feel the urge to do ANY thing? Just happens, right? No explanation except what science offers as chemical analysis.

emotions i guess. im not sure

 

 

 

 

 

The idea of evolution tells you why to all of those feelings you have. The idea of evoution tells you why you were born. And just to feel good, isn't on its list.

 

tell me more i have alot to learn and this is really interesting.

[Asimov]

maybe the energy is the creator and everything is a part of it.

i know that the body dies but what happens to you? i guess if its the brain it no longer exists.

 

That's ad hoc, though, not to mention silly...you can't create yourself, willybilly.

 

You are your body.

 

cause look at the world your computer came from something, you came from your parents, it just seems like everything has a starting point and is born from something else. but i could be wrong maybe the universe was always here and nothing started it.

 

You're looking at it too specifically and then applying it in a generalized manner. There is no correlation between humans being born and the universe beginning.

 

i was wondering about life after physical death what do you think happens their?

 

Physical death as opposed to....?

[SkepticOfBible]

ALL gods are considered false by a new understanding of Reality. The interesting thing is, that you can have 2 exactly correct understandings of the same reality.

 

Well that is sort of the line that Hinduism dwells on.

 

These would create 2 forms of a "god". Followers of each might proclaim the other as false, even though they are really talking about merely 2 different ways of looking at the same Reality.

 

Not really. Each of the gods are in fact their own reality or live in their own theological system and they explcitly say that they are the reality and no other, kind of like Windows and OX(whatever the Apple uses).

[Ssel]

Not really. Each of the gods are in fact their own reality or live in their own theological system and they explcitly say that they are the reality and no other, kind of like Windows and OX(whatever the Apple uses).

In this, you have redefined, and misdefined, the word "reality"

 

WB, you keep mixing "why for what purpose" with "why by what cause"

 

Your body has a cause to function. But is also has a purpose in functioning. Evolution is not only a part of the cause which designed it. But evolution is also part of what defined its purpose.

 

But try to remember that the individual was not born to serve the species. The species was created to serve the individuals.

[NotBlinded]

what would that mean? being reborn?

 

 

what is IIRC?

the idea of an afterlife and seeing family whose died and living forever is such a hard idea to give up.

having no proof of it is also scary if you die you wonder if your going to a after life or cease to exist.

i think death is my biggest fear i think i fear it more than anything on earth that could happen to me.

i dont know how to deal with it.

Maybe if you looked at birth as the opposite of death and not life, then could you logically conclude that life has no opposite? Just a thought.

Having to think of what would happen after death would require speculation because we can't know for sure. But, it would seem that whatever energy we have would have to go somewhere or change into something else.

[willybilly30]

maybe i shouldnt think about it so much

the thought of dying and not existing just scares the crap out of me

everytime i get sick or something i think shit im going to die and not exist.

the fear of hell i had as a christian wouldnt be as big as this fear.

they say ignorance is bliss sometimes i wish i was still ignorant.

[NotBlinded]

maybe i shouldnt think about it so much

the thought of dying and not existing just scares the crap out of me

everytime i get sick or something i thing shit im going to die and not exist.

the fear of hell i has a christian would as big as this fear.

they say ignorance is bliss sometimes i wish i was still ignorant.

I understand willy. I wish there was something I could say that would help, but all I can say is to not create your own hell in your life by worring about something we can know nothing about. Just accept that it's okay not to know.

[Ssel]

the fear of hell i has a christian would as big as this fear.

they say ignorance is bliss sometimes i wish i was still ignorant.

If you live merely to feel good or you merely live for yourself. Then you have nothing what so ever to fear about death. Hell is non-existent for you.

 

Heaven and Hell are ONLY for people who care about what happens to THE REST OF THE WORLD after they die.

[willybilly30]

i need to try to quit worrying about it.

 

 

 

maybe i shouldnt think about it so much

the thought of dying and not existing just scares the crap out of me

everytime i get sick or something i thing shit im going to die and not exist.

the fear of hell i has a christian would as big as this fear.

they say ignorance is bliss sometimes i wish i was still ignorant.

I understand willy. I wish there was something I could say that would help, but all I can say is to not create your own hell in your life by worring about something we can know nothing about. Just accept that it's okay not to know.

 

 

 

 

i am not afraid of hell

i am afraid of not existing.

id rather burn in hell for all eternity than not exist.

hell seems like disney land compared to the thought of not existing.

give me hell any day just so i exist

 

 

 

 

 

the fear of hell i has a christian would as big as this fear.

they say ignorance is bliss sometimes i wish i was still ignorant.

If you live merely to feel good or you merely live for yourself. Then you have nothing what so ever to fear about death. Hell is non-existent for you.

 

Heaven and Hell are ONLY for people who care about what happens to THE REST OF THE WORLD after they die.

 

 

ssl i replied to the last post you made yesterday did you see that.

i care about the world and the people in it not just myself.

[Ssel]

i need to try to quit worrying about it.

i am not afraid of hell

i am afraid of not existing.

id rather burn in hell for all eternity than not exist.

hell seems like disney land compared to the thought of not existing.

give me hell any day just so i exist

Find something about life that you expect to continue forever, and become involved in its struggle to do so. By becoming involved, your heart will focus on what you are certain will never end. You become more than a human body, you become a part of all that you care about. Care about it enough to feel that it is more important than your body, and you live beyond your body as a part of that which you struggled with.

 

Example;

 

When George Washington died, did he think "what a waste my life has been. Here I lay dying and soon to be nothingness at all." Perhaps he did, but I seriously doubt it. Most like he thought more interms of what a great struggle to create such a new hope for people he had been a part of. I can easily imagine him smiling at the prospect of what he had helped spur into existence.

 

One need not create an entire nation to have an after life. A single child is more than sufficient. But anything and everything that you do with passion carries you with it from that point on.

 

To stop the worry, simply devote yourself to something you truly feel is a worthy and continuing existence and get involved. The worry will fade.

 

If what you have devoted yourself to is eternal, then so will you be and never be non-existent.

 

i care about the world and the people in it not just myself.

I knew that already. Now.. GET INVOLVED.

 

 

 

Also for what its worth, I have just described what true baptism is...

 

Immerse into the waters (the issues) of the Holy Spirit (The concern of ALL things)

 

John had only been baptizing in one specific river of concerns.

 

The ritual you see at churchs is only the symbolic representation of the understanding and has nothing to do with actual baptism. They equate becoming a member of the church with becoming involved. It all makes much more sense than you think.

[Ssel]

Something more appropriate for this thread...

 

 

 

But wasn't it true that at one point in history humans called the eruptions of volcanoes supernatural? Really though, what force could there possibly be that wouldn't be natural? Electricity was an unknown force until it was discovered. Couldn't one say that if we took a computer back to ancient Egypt that it would be seen as a supernatural force?

 

Okay, maybe it’s time to get down to the real nitty-gritty of what is happening…

 

There is a “spell” operating within everyone on this forum. But please understand that when I say “spell” I am not talking about a hocus pocus type of thing, but rather a logical mental thing which causes a certain type of behavior. This spell is one that creates and inspires disagreement and argument.

 

So I would like to do 2 things. One, is to explain exactly why science and religion argue about the supernatural. The other is to attempt to “dispel” the afore mentioned spell.

 

==========================================

Put aside your disbelief in either for a moment and your dislike for me. Please read this very carefully. It is not about believing in any spooky sky Daddy type of thing, but instead about understanding the technical reasons for what is happening with people.

==========================================

 

Why scientists and religions argue over the supernatural

 

 

First, one of the more important concerns is the difference between the fundy of an ideology and the originators, and sometimes, leaders.

 

The fundy of an ideology accepts the rationale of the ideology without a great deal of analysis. This invariably leads to an acceptance of a connotation that wasn’t really meant by the originators. For example;

 

Someone says that there are “unseen forces” controlling the volcano. In this, he is absolutely correct. But if speaking to a child or merely someone who doesn’t have time to get into technical understandings, a connotation is invariably added that was never said.

 

What the fundy begins to think is “There is an entity using unseen forces and controlling the volcano.” The additional “entity using” is the connotation that got added. Technically speaking it still isn’t exactly incorrect. An entity isn’t technically required to be a personage. But again, the connotation of an entity is that of a personage of some kind.

 

Thus the fundy ends up thinking in terms of “There is a personage using unseen forces and controlling the volcano.” This is clearly NOT what the originator said. But the originator was a thinker/analyzer type of person and comparatively uncommon. The larger percentage of people don’t study technical details and thus fall prey to their own slips of misunderstandings. Should everyone be required to be a technical genius?

 

It is the connotations that are causing the troubles. In ancient history people did not have huge dictionaries to prevent such things from occurring. They had to deal with simple written letters and symbols for basic concepts.

 

As Jesus put it, “Cast your bread (understanding) unto the sea (the crowds), and it will return swollen (inflated).” He was referring to the fact that you can’t hardly say anything without people adding connotations that glorify it into something that it wasn’t. This is where the “unleavened bread” in the Torah story comes from. This is also evidenced every day on this and every web journal. It is a problem of communication and presumptuous emotionalism.

 

-----------

 

Now… the word “supernatural” connotates a personage being involved. But it only truly means that mysterious forces are involved. Science was created specifically to remove mystery. Thus the scientist is quick to reveal any mystery and thus remove it from the “supernatural” class.

 

 

Science does NOT discover the lack of the supernatural. Science creates the lack of supernatural.

 

 

When the scientist discovers how something happens, he concludes “I see how this works, and I see no supernatural magic.” He will always be correct, because by revealing the unseen, it is no longer unseen. He can do this forever (perhaps) and will never, ever see the unseen forces that were being called magic because they are no longer magic to him.

 

I understand how the Red Sea was parted and the Staff of Moses was used, thus it is not supernatural to me. But to those who never analyzed it to the point of understanding, it is still an unseen mystical force or merely a fictional tale.

 

Religions are not merely trying to point out what they believe to be truths. They are also trying to maintain societies. These societies are filled with people who do not have the time or talent to study the technical details of things, thus they simply follow what they misunderstand as well as they care to. The religions then emphasis keeping faith so as to keep the effort going despite the confusion. In this, they are not wrong. Even science has a great many faithful followers rather than the few who truly understand the principles. Without faith in the leaders of an organization, the organization will fall. This is NOT a reflection on the truths, but of the wisdom of the leaders.

 

Religions accept the reality that people are most often driven by misunderstandings. The scientist refuses the misunderstandings and attempts to claim that the religion is merely power hungry. No doubt many have been at one point or another. But this is more a product of suspicion than of fact. Even science is power hungry for influence. Every organization must defend itself. Science social engineers use misunderstandings intentionally to create many things in society (we can discuss this on another thread).

 

The arguing is between the scientists and the priests, not really between the ideologies.

 

 

The “spell” –

 

When people use words which have connotations involved, they consciously think of word, but subconsciously have added a connotative understanding. The other person uses the same word but with a different connotation or they argue of the existence of the connotated thing rather than what the word actually means.

 

The connotation goes unseen (and thus is the “magic force”). They don’t realize that they are doing this, thus they don’t point it out. Thus the conflicts and arguing go on and on.

 

When people are arguing over things that they are passionate about, then the arguing becomes passionate, hateful, and at times violent. All merely from letting connotations govern their thinking.

 

To break the mental spell, simply refuse to argue when someone is using connotations and point it out.

 

STOP USING CONNOTATIVE meanings!! And the conflicts will cease.

 

Also realize that you need not study metaphorical understandings nor research artifacts to defeat every fundy that comes here. Simply disallow him to use connotations and his mind will go blank and he will be lost. (Kevin never presented even one opening statement once I politely asked for his logical construct and insisted on definitions)

 

Can someone define what a three-headed elephant is if one does exist?

 

The argument that something can not be defined if it doesn’t exist is childishly absurd. If someone is arguing that something doesn’t exist, then they, at very least, have a connotative definition. If they don’t admit it or voice it, then the argument will not be resolved.

 

Keep insisting on agreed upon definitions of all potentially ambiguous words and the energy spent on conflict and emotionalism will turn into the energy that builds actual learning and growth. It is virtually guaranteed that one of the 2 debaters will learn as long as connotations are removed.

[willybilly30]

i will just let this thread go back to its original topic

cya on some other topic

[Ssel]

Something more appropriate for this thread...

WB, When I said this, I was referring to the fact that I had posted this on a different thread. I wasn't meaning to bump what you were talking about.

[willybilly30]

colosseum rules say to stay on topic and not drift off of it.

its a wonder i havent been warned already

[Ssel]

colosseum rules say to stay on topic and not drift off of it.

its a wonder i havent been warned already

I doubt that anyone was offended by the short distraction.

[NotBlinded]

STOP USING CONNOTATIVE meanings!! And the conflicts will cease.

And what word conjures up more connotative meaning than the word "God".