Are You An Atheist?

[mymistake]

 I think you are right though. The Bible God and Hell reeks of human character traits and methods.

 

 

 

There is no god.  The human brain is hard wired to negotiate.  We evolved to use bargaining as a survival tool.  It is even a stage in our grief process.  When somebody feels out of control they will want to bargain with some entity that is in control even if one does not exist.  We do not like to deny our instinct.  So when our loved ones die, when we get seriously ill, when our ship is caught in a storm, or when we lose our keys and will get fired if we are late we strike a bargain with powerful forces that have control over these things.  We create gods.

 

Nearly every culture for the last 50,000 years has created gods.  That is very strong evidence that creating gods is human nature.

[amateur]

I bounced around between being an agnostic and a xian for a long time, more time as an agnostic since that's what my parents seemed to be.

 

A few years ago I read Julian Jaynes's book "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" and that turned me totally atheist.  As an agnostic I had believed that "People created god to explain why we're here and to take away the fear of death" (which is what my dad had always told us as we grew up), but that never really satisfied me.  Jaynes's book explained (his theory) of how the human brain used to be separated into the two hemispheres with no connection between them.  The "voices" people heard from one hemisphere they thought of as their leader or a god.  Anyway, I'm not smart enough to explain the whole book in a few sentences, but with all his evidence through art, literature (including the bible), and and religions I was finally satisfied that there was a physical reason for gods, and a concrete start to their existence, and it is also why sane people do NOT hear "voices" or "gods" in their heads these days.  The author in no way was trying to promote atheism, and in fact, gives no clue as to his own opinion of religion.  In the "Julian Jaynes Society" website, some people were MORE convinced of a god after reading his book.  I don't get that.  But anyway, that book, which I read shortly before finding this site, had me completely atheist.  This site has given me lots more facts and information on how the bible was put together, how religion has been misused, and has allowed me to step back from any religion of my childhood and make me see it as absolute nonsense.

[Deidre]

I bounced around between being an agnostic and a xian for a long time, more time as an agnostic since that's what my parents seemed to be.

 

A few years ago I read Julian Jaynes's book "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" and that turned me totally atheist.  As an agnostic I had believed that "People created god to explain why we're here and to take away the fear of death" (which is what my dad had always told us as we grew up), but that never really satisfied me.  Jaynes's book explained (his theory) of how the human brain used to be separated into the two hemispheres with no connection between them.  The "voices" people heard from one hemisphere they thought of as their leader or a god.  Anyway, I'm not smart enough to explain the whole book in a few sentences, but with all his evidence through art, literature (including the bible), and and religions I was finally satisfied that there was a physical reason for gods, and a concrete start to their existence, and it is also why sane people do NOT hear "voices" or "gods" in their heads these days.  The author in no way was trying to promote atheism, and in fact, gives no clue as to his own opinion of religion.  In the "Julian Jaynes Society" website, some people were MORE convinced of a god after reading his book.  I don't get that.  But anyway, that book, which I read shortly before finding this site, had me completely atheist.  This site has given me lots more facts and information on how the bible was put together, how religion has been misused, and has allowed me to step back from any religion of my childhood and make me see it as absolute nonsense.

Since buying into religion is largely an emotional thing, that is why it might not make sense, when we see people turn to faith when all logic points against it. It took me a while to accept that I'm an atheist. The culture paints the word itself in a bad light, and it's no wonder we shy away from 'coming out' right away with it. The thing is, atheism is actually a beautiful and natural way to live one's life. It allows for growth, and an open mind to other people's views. In retrospect, I was pretty closed minded as a Christian. If the Bible or Christianity didn't ''approve'' of something, then I didn't. It's nice to be able to objectively look at people, and the world in a way that allows for a genuine opinion, and not one that I was brainwashed into believing.

 

I enjoyed reading your story, thanks amateur!

[Deidre]

I'm an atheist.  Technically an agnostic atheist because agnosticism is about what we (don't) know and atheism is about what we (don't) believe.  I don't know if there is a force that we're unaware of but I believe the probability is almost nil.  I have no hangups about the term atheist, it's the best descriptor for me.  

 

How did it happen?  I had started to read the bible more in an effort to understand it.  It wasn't working.  One Saturday morning sitting in my bedroom it occurred to me that biblegod wasn't real, and that it had all been a hoax.  My belief just fell away.  Instantly I thought about whether I could get it back, and I knew I couldn't.  (I think my belief had been slipping away piece by piece for a long time.)  At the same time I affirmed my skepticism of all unsupported claims about supernatural things and "spirituality".  Since then, I haven't looked back.  I'm very happy about it and proud to call myself an athiest.

Thanks for sharing this, Free...you seem to be a very peaceful person, of what I've come to learn of you if only through our e-exchanges. It's free-ing to live as we were meant to.

[Deidre]

Highly recommend viewing this, when you all get a chance. It's interesting. Lemme know what u think about it.

 

[Deidre]

Post Christianity, I studied as many avenues of theological thought as I could find. Tried Paganism and Eastern disciplines. Searched diligently for some sort of a god other than the Christian god, which I knew wasn't viable. Zip, nada, zilch. I will say that Paganism and its adherents were fun, and I may dabble again and no god belief needs to taint that experience. The same can be said of some Eastern philosophies. 

 

So the only conclusion is that I couldn't find reason to believe any gods exist, therefore I don't believe they do. Of course I leave open the possibility that gods, demons, angels, fairies, reptilian shape shifters and anything else you can imagine could exist, but the probability is virtually zero so I don't even entertain the notion.

 

Apply labels as deemed necessary.

lol ''reptilian shape shifters''

 

Nice explanation, and agree. I think that there is no ''current'' proof based on all the religions we've seen, and are ''available'' to wander through. It stands to reason that if everyone sees 'God' a bit differently, that his 'rule book' changes from religion to religion, that's it's merely an invention of man to have 'the best' religion, as mankind is rather competitive by nature.

 

Thx for sharing, florduh.

[Deidre]

I found myself out to be an atheist during my deconversion. Since deconverting, I have learned that I was increasingly atheistic in my thinking as a Christian during the past 15 years of my Christianity. What I mean by atheistic in that sense is, I knew more and more that supernatural interventions were nonexistent. I rationalized that Christians substitute God for unknown or perceived incredible odds to something. But it was more of a substitution than anything else. " We'll just say God," as an explanation.

I had shadows and images following me around as a little kid, strange things terrorizing me, some awful dreams that I revealed in another thread. I used to believe that was demons. But since they could not be made to go away by the Christian prescribed methods, either charismatic or old-world "never talk about it" responses, I realized there must be something else to all this.

Something else I'm surprised nobody has brought up: There is a tremendous amount of atheistic counterapologetics within Christiantiy, against all other religions. Even against the very deistic god other apologists use as a base to prove their own god. All over Christianity, there is debunking of every other religion on the planet. The well-formed debunking, the stuff I was attracted to, doesn't talk about these other religions being of the devil. It debunks them, citing insufficient archeological evidence for the Mormons' claims, the tax scam behind Christian Science, the myth surrounding Samuel Gardner's Wicca and the improbability of practices surviving the Church's genocidal acts, the paradoxes within Hinduism, and so forth. I simply turned on Christianity, unconsciously at first, and it wilted under the same rational deductive analysis. Many will admit that experience isn't enough, faith isn't enough. In fact I believe it's Karen Armstrong who complains that faith has been so reasoned that it loses what it once had. I'm not sure I see that as a complaint, personally. Not for me. But that about says it. I've illustrated other places how my deconversion went, but why atheism? This may explain it.

And, I also am an agnostic atheist as follows: Statistically improbable that there is a god, and if there is one, which one? What does it want, and how could we know among the thousands of available man-made images of it? Or is it something entirely different? And, it is impossible to know because it's impossible to test for a negative and a positive in this scenario.

I could never hold the hard atheist position, especially of the more so-called evangelical kind: I find that creates a one-dimensional perspective I never even held as a Christian, save for the couple of fiery years of my early 20s.

I'm more concerned with the moral philosophies of humanism, and how humanism has been so deliberately and deceptively maligned by Christian evangelicals to suit their end.

That's interesting! So, there are Christians who use the same analysis we (atheists) use to bebunk Christianty, so to speak? haha It's funny how people rationalize irrational beliefs, and if any OTHER irrational beliefs cross their paths, they are quick to jump all over them. Christianity being the quintessential example of irrational beliefs. Great point about humanism, and what it is you honestly feel connected with.

 

Glad you're in a good place Leo.

[themonkeyman]

I've not a clue,

 

Ive been listening to Christian Radio here in the UK when working out in my shed and I have to say I find the more I listen the less I believe in Any God.

 

The way they talk a bout 'Said' God and how grossly people make him up to say things that he didnt say or to do things he didnt do I start realsing that God may well be made up.

 

I would say I lean more to there being 'A' God weather that be a Creator or an Alien something created us from nothing as nothing of itself is the absence of something which therefore according to Einsetin Special Theory of Relativity I would say that for there to be nothing then something has to have been.  Very similar to cause and effect.

 

I like where I am with my view - That said the Christian god is definately made up.  There are aspects of Yahweh which I believe are made up but I think its just ignorant Jews trying to work things out in life.

[Ellinas]

No.

 

See the information on the left...

 

I am also of the view that (save in those cases where mental health issues are caused by one or the other outlook) it really doesn't matter.

[Deidre]

Human, thanks for your thoughts about that video! I came away thinking along the same lines in some respects haha How funny.

Yes, atheism just means you're not a theist, but that doesn't mean you're not spiritual. Or have an interest in spirituality. A person can have no interest in anything at all related to the possibility of a spirit world, but "atheism" wouldn't be the right term to define it.

 

Very good points!!

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

Thanks for sharing this, Free...you seem to be a very peaceful person, of what I've come to learn of you if only through our e-exchanges. It's free-ing to live as we were meant to.

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing this, Free...you seem to be a very peaceful person, of what I've come to learn of you if only through our e-exchanges. It's free-ing to live as we were meant to.

 

Thanks, Dee.  Moving from xian to atheist was very freeing and allowed me to approach life more peacefully.  I have no reason to believe there is any kind of life after this one, so all my energies now go into living it as best I can.  

[Neverlandrut]

Yes. I don't believe a god exists. Therefore, I am an atheist. I don't 100% exclude the logical possibility there may be or may have been an intelligent creator, but there is simply no evidence that it must be so. All evidence there is strongly indicates that all religions are man made systems designed to explain what we don't know and understand, and give comforting answers to troubling questions. Though many people find these systems attractive, there is zero evidence the claims they make are actually true.

[Neverlandrut]

Human, thanks for your thoughts about that video! I came away thinking along the same lines in some respects haha How funny.

Yes, atheism just means you're not a theist, but that doesn't mean you're not spiritual. Or have an interest in spirituality. A person can have no interest in anything at all related to the possibility of a spirit world, but "atheism" wouldn't be the right term to define it.

 

Very good points!!

Very true! "Atheist" does not imply "non-spiritual." My issue with "spiritual" is that it has such a wide range of meanings that are very subjective. That being the case, I don't believe in anything such thing as a literal spiritual relm. So, in that sense, I could be labeled "non-spiritual." I do, however, find myself in awe of nature, my life, my sense of meaning, and my connection to everyone and everything around me, even more than when I was a Christian. I am enamored with a sense of the numinous and transcendent, if you will. So, in that sense, I could be labeled as "spiritual." I don't believe there is anything literal/other worldly that gives rise to this. But it's no less meaningful and wonderful to experience.

[Deidre]

 

Human, thanks for your thoughts about that video! I came away thinking along the same lines in some respects haha How funny.Yes, atheism just means you're not a theist, but that doesn't mean you're not spiritual. Or have an interest in spirituality. A person can have no interest in anything at all related to the possibility of a spirit world, but "atheism" wouldn't be the right term to define it.Very good points!!

Hi Deidre,I'm not surprised that you and I had some similar impressions about the video. :)As far as a word to describe someone who has "no interest in anything at all related to the possibility of a spirit world," I thought about apneumatist (i.e., a- "not" + pneuma "spirit/wind/breath" + tist[i/] "one who (is)." But that would probably mean "one who does not believe in spirit or anything spiritual." (And that was just for fun, making up the word from Greek.) Someone who doesn't care one way or another would probably simply be an "indifferentist." hahaHuman

 

Haha! I laughed out loud for real. "indifferentist"

 

 

 

Human, thanks for your thoughts about that video! I came away thinking along the same lines in some respects haha How funny.Yes, atheism just means you're not a theist, but that doesn't mean you're not spiritual. Or have an interest in spirituality. A person can have no interest in anything at all related to the possibility of a spirit world, but "atheism" wouldn't be the right term to define it.Very good points!!

Very true! "Atheist" does not imply "non-spiritual." My issue with "spiritual" is that it has such a wide range of meanings that are very subjective. That being the case, I don't believe in anything such thing as a literal spiritual relm. So, in that sense, I could be labeled "non-spiritual." I do, however, find myself in awe of nature, my life, my sense of meaning, and my connection to everyone and everything around me, even more than when I was a Christian. I am enamored with a sense of the numinous and transcendent, if you will. So, in that sense, I could be labeled as "spiritual." I don't believe there is anything literal/other worldly that gives rise to this. But it's no less meaningful and wonderful to experience.

Hey, thanks for chiming in here. I agree. Sometimes I wonder ...is mankind hard wired to ponder the spiritual world or just hard wired to be curious? Curious about his surroundings, almost to a fault. Lol

[Neverlandrut]

 

 

Human, thanks for your thoughts about that video! I came away thinking along the same lines in some respects haha How funny.Yes, atheism just means you're not a theist, but that doesn't mean you're not spiritual. Or have an interest in spirituality. A person can have no interest in anything at all related to the possibility of a spirit world, but "atheism" wouldn't be the right term to define it.Very good points!!

Hi Deidre,I'm not surprised that you and I had some similar impressions about the video. :)As far as a word to describe someone who has "no interest in anything at all related to the possibility of a spirit world," I thought about apneumatist (i.e., a- "not" + pneuma "spirit/wind/breath" + tist[i/] "one who (is)." But that would probably mean "one who does not believe in spirit or anything spiritual." (And that was just for fun, making up the word from Greek.) Someone who doesn't care one way or another would probably simply be an "indifferentist." hahaHuman

 

Haha! I laughed out loud for real. "indifferentist"

 

 

 

Human, thanks for your thoughts about that video! I came away thinking along the same lines in some respects haha How funny.Yes, atheism just means you're not a theist, but that doesn't mean you're not spiritual. Or have an interest in spirituality. A person can have no interest in anything at all related to the possibility of a spirit world, but "atheism" wouldn't be the right term to define it.Very good points!!

Very true! "Atheist" does not imply "non-spiritual." My issue with "spiritual" is that it has such a wide range of meanings that are very subjective. That being the case, I don't believe in anything such thing as a literal spiritual relm. So, in that sense, I could be labeled "non-spiritual." I do, however, find myself in awe of nature, my life, my sense of meaning, and my connection to everyone and everything around me, even more than when I was a Christian. I am enamored with a sense of the numinous and transcendent, if you will. So, in that sense, I could be labeled as "spiritual." I don't believe there is anything literal/other worldly that gives rise to this. But it's no less meaningful and wonderful to experience.

Hey, thanks for chiming in here. I agree. Sometimes I wonder ...is mankind hard wired to ponder the spiritual world or just hard wired to be curious? Curious about his surroundings, almost to a fault. Lol

I think it's reasonable to say so, that we are curious to a fault. Maybe our curiousity and patern seeking cognitive processes helped us survive all this time, but now they've run away with us and found their limit. The irony is that, since we are on the inside of this situation looking out, it might be impossible to know if that is the case or if there perhaps is something substantial to it. Does our curiosity about deeper meaning point to a runaway trait of evolution, or does it point to something real, outside of ourselves? I don't know, and I'm not sure we can know.

[rerics]

I'm open to the possibility of the existence of a greater undefineable something, maybe a pantheistic or Paul Tillich-like "ground of all being" sort of way.  No chance the God of the bible exists in any meaningful or identifiable form.

[Deva]

For most of my life I had thought there must be something more beyond what we see and experience.  We don't know everything about this universe, but surely these ideas of God as expressed in Christianity are not true.  Actually, as far as the God of any organized religion I know of I am a total atheist.

 

If there is a God or Gods, they are likely beyond anything imaginable by us. 

[Deidre]

I'm open to the possibility of the existence of a greater undefineable something, maybe a pantheistic or Paul Tillich-like "ground of all being" sort of way.  No chance the God of the bible exists in any meaningful or identifiable form.

 

pantheism sounds interesting, in some ways.

 

For most of my life I had thought there must be something more beyond what we see and experience.  We don't know everything about this universe, but surely these ideas of God as expressed in Christianity are not true.  Actually, as far as the God of any organized religion I know of I am a total atheist.

 

If there is a God or Gods, they are likely beyond anything imaginable by us.

well said, Deva...

[Ravenstar]

Agnostic Atheist/Atheist Neo-pagan

 

Strong Atheist in regards to Yahweh/Allah… but because I know enough about them to be able to assert they do not exist.

 

of course it all depends on the definition of theos. It also depends on whether quantum reality is affected by thoughts/beliefs… that's a whole new ballgame.  

 

I do recognize that in the mental world many 'gods' exist… as psychological constructs.

[Brother Jeff]

I wrote this to my high school band director on Facebook a couple of years ago to explain my religious journey:

 

My journey from devout religious belief to atheism has been a long and interesting one. I spent 15 years as a very devout fundamentalist Christian. I was the type who annoyed everybody. I wrote evangelistic letters to my family. I tried to convert my friends and co-workers. I handed out those ridiculous Chick tracts to convenience store clerks and toll booth operators. I was at church every time the doors opened, including early morning prayer meetings. I forced my beliefs on everybody all the time and though I meant well, I made a huge nuisance of myself. Despite all of that religious activity and belief, I still had questions that that seemed to have no good answers from my pastors or from the Christian apologists I read. Those questions finally built up to the point where I could no longer ignore them or write them off as coming from the devil.

 

In early 2000, I got on the Net as it existed back then and started researching my faith on both sides of the fence. I was absolutely stunned to find that the religious skeptics had far better answers than I had encountered from Christian apologists and I was also very surprised to see how easily they ripped my once cherished beliefs to shreds, not through ridicule but with facts. I started reading the skeptical side at www.infidels.org and went from there.

 

After I got over the shock of having my Christian worldview ripped out from under me, I became very very ANGRY! The fact that I was also very mentally ill at the time with not well controlled bipolar disorder didn’t help matters any. I felt foolish, used, and betrayed when I realized I had been intentionally lied to for 15 years and I had bought into it hook, line, and sinker.

 

What followed next was a swing to the other side of the religious spectrum and several years of outspoken atheism. I maintained a strongly anti-Christian website that had a few different incarnations and I regularly ridiculed the beliefs that I had once held sacred. It was not a happy time in my life, but it was a necessary part for me of processing an excruciatingly painful experience.

 

I have experimented with several different belief systems over the years since I left the Christian faith. Atheism still makes the most rational sense to me, but right now I would say I am agnostic. I DON’T KNOW if a god of any kind exists, but I strongly doubt it. There’s just no good evidence that he/she/it does. And the fact that God never thinks, says, or does anything at all except in the minds of believers speaks volumes to me.

 

I have found spiritual beliefs that have some meaning to me. I happen to really appreciate the wisdom that comes out of Hinduism and Buddhism. I can find good in all religions, but I don’t for a moment believe that any of them have a divine origin.

 

I am not at a place right now where I feel comfortable embracing belief. I sacrificed my brain at the altar of religion once when I was young and got hurt badly, and I will not ever make that mistake again.

 

 

I consider myself an atheist and I haven't dabbled in Eastern religious belief now for a couple of years or so. Sure, there is a lot positive that is there, but my rational mind keeps getting in the way of really embracing spirituality again in any meaningful way. There is just no evidence to support the beliefs... I find the NDE phenomenon very interesting, and that is the only thing that gives me a shred of hope that there might be a god or some sort of pleasant afterlife. People who have NDEs often report experiencing a loving God and a very pleasant afterlife, and these experiences are often life-transforming. And so far skeptics have not come up with any naturalistic explanations that I find convincing at all. NDEs are certainly NOT hallucinations, though that theory is popular right now. Thanks to mental illness, I have experienced both visual and auditory hallucinations, and they were not life-transforming at all. They were simply an annoyance. And meticulously maintained and expensive medical equipment malfunctioning during surgery? Give me a fucking break... yet this explanation has actually been seriously offered! That's getting pretty desperate, in my opinion, to explain things away... I have no idea what NDEs are or if they offer a real glimpse of a real God or a real afterlife or not. But I find movies such as "Heaven is For Real" emotionally moving and somewhat convincing. Same can be said for the popular book "Proof of Heaven" by Dr. Eben Alexander. But I do still have to wonder, if this loving God who cares so much about humanity actually exists, then why does he/she/it never interact with our world in any discernible way at all? So I'm left with a lot of doubt despite some compelling and emotionally moving NDE accounts, and remain an atheist until real evidence for a real God becomes available...

[UnFundEd]

I wrote this to my high school band director on Facebook a couple of years ago to explain my religious journey:

 

 

 

My journey from devout religious belief to atheism has been a long and interesting one. I spent 15 years as a very devout fundamentalist Christian. I was the type who annoyed everybody. I wrote evangelistic letters to my family. I tried to convert my friends and co-workers. I handed out those ridiculous Chick tracts to convenience store clerks and toll booth operators. I was at church every time the doors opened, including early morning prayer meetings. I forced my beliefs on everybody all the time and though I meant well, I made a huge nuisance of myself. Despite all of that religious activity and belief, I still had questions that that seemed to have no good answers from my pastors or from the Christian apologists I read. Those questions finally built up to the point where I could no longer ignore them or write them off as coming from the devil.

 

In early 2000, I got on the Net as it existed back then and started researching my faith on both sides of the fence. I was absolutely stunned to find that the religious skeptics had far better answers than I had encountered from Christian apologists and I was also very surprised to see how easily they ripped my once cherished beliefs to shreds, not through ridicule but with facts. I started reading the skeptical side at www.infidels.org and went from there.

 

After I got over the shock of having my Christian worldview ripped out from under me, I became very very ANGRY! The fact that I was also very mentally ill at the time with not well controlled bipolar disorder didn’t help matters any. I felt foolish, used, and betrayed when I realized I had been intentionally lied to for 15 years and I had bought into it hook, line, and sinker.

 

What followed next was a swing to the other side of the religious spectrum and several years of outspoken atheism. I maintained a strongly anti-Christian website that had a few different incarnations and I regularly ridiculed the beliefs that I had once held sacred. It was not a happy time in my life, but it was a necessary part for me of processing an excruciatingly painful experience.

 

I have experimented with several different belief systems over the years since I left the Christian faith. Atheism still makes the most rational sense to me, but right now I would say I am agnostic. I DON’T KNOW if a god of any kind exists, but I strongly doubt it. There’s just no good evidence that he/she/it does. And the fact that God never thinks, says, or does anything at all except in the minds of believers speaks volumes to me.

 

I have found spiritual beliefs that have some meaning to me. I happen to really appreciate the wisdom that comes out of Hinduism and Buddhism. I can find good in all religions, but I don’t for a moment believe that any of them have a divine origin.

 

I am not at a place right now where I feel comfortable embracing belief. I sacrificed my brain at the altar of religion once when I was young and got hurt badly, and I will not ever make that mistake again.

 

 

 

I consider myself an atheist and I haven't dabbled in Eastern religious belief now for a couple of years or so. Sure, there is a lot positive that is there, but my rational mind keeps getting in the way of really embracing spirituality again in any meaningful way. There is just no evidence to support the beliefs... I find the NDE phenomenon very interesting, and that is the only thing that gives me a shred of hope that there might be a god or some sort of pleasant afterlife. People who have NDEs often report experiencing a loving God and a very pleasant afterlife, and these experiences are often life-transforming. And so far skeptics have not come up with any naturalistic explanations that I find convincing at all. NDEs are certainly NOT hallucinations, though that theory is popular right now. Thanks to mental illness, I have experienced both visual and auditory hallucinations, and they were not life-transforming at all. They were simply an annoyance. And meticulously maintained and expensive medical equipment malfunctioning during surgery? Give me a fucking break... yet this explanation has actually been seriously offered! That's getting pretty desperate, in my opinion, to explain things away... I have no idea what NDEs are or if they offer a real glimpse of a real God or a real afterlife or not. But I find movies such as "Heaven is For Real" emotionally moving and somewhat convincing. Same can be said for the popular book "Proof of Heaven" by Dr. Eben Alexander. But I do still have to wonder, if this loving God who cares so much about humanity actually exists, then why does he/she/it never interact with our world in any discernible way at all? So I'm left with a lot of doubt despite some compelling and emotionally moving NDE accounts, and remain an atheist until real evidence for a real God becomes available...

I tend to agree with your statements about NDEs.

[Deva]

...I equate spirituality with the essence of being Human. But I also think that many -- perhaps even most -- people do not recognize it, do not care about it, and therefore do not endeavor to understand it in a meaningful way -- not consciously anyway. (I think Buddhism is a way for me to stay reminded of and to focus on this essence of being human.)

 

I totally agree - and most people do not care to examine any of this in depth. It simply is not a deep concern of theirs or they have many compelling reasons for not looking at it. You will find many very intelligent people still within the Churches today who actually believe because that is how they were raised. They wouldn't know who Tillich was --

 

I personally found Buddhism to be a dead end but that was when I found out that essentially there wasn't any difference between Buddhism and Christianity in practice. That is a bold statement to be sure and I am only speaking of a part of Buddhism which I personally encountered.  I still think Buddha was on the right track with the four noble truths. At least he was tuned into reality when he could not reconcile suffering with his privileged life.

[Neverlandrut]

 

 

 

 

Human, thanks for your thoughts about that video! I came away thinking along the same lines in some respects haha How funny.Yes, atheism just means you're not a theist, but that doesn't mean you're not spiritual. Or have an interest in spirituality. A person can have no interest in anything at all related to the possibility of a spirit world, but "atheism" wouldn't be the right term to define it.Very good points!!

Hi Deidre,I'm not surprised that you and I had some similar impressions about the video. :)As far as a word to describe someone who has "no interest in anything at all related to the possibility of a spirit world," I thought about apneumatist (i.e., a- "not" + pneuma "spirit/wind/breath" + tist[i/] "one who (is)." But that would probably mean "one who does not believe in spirit or anything spiritual." (And that was just for fun, making up the word from Greek.) Someone who doesn't care one way or another would probably simply be an "indifferentist." hahaHuman

 

Haha! I laughed out loud for real. "indifferentist"

 

Human, thanks for your thoughts about that video! I came away thinking along the same lines in some respects haha How funny.Yes, atheism just means you're not a theist, but that doesn't mean you're not spiritual. Or have an interest in spirituality. A person can have no interest in anything at all related to the possibility of a spirit world, but "atheism" wouldn't be the right term to define it.Very good points!!

Very true! "Atheist" does not imply "non-spiritual." My issue with "spiritual" is that it has such a wide range of meanings that are very subjective. That being the case, I don't believe in anything such thing as a literal spiritual relm. So, in that sense, I could be labeled "non-spiritual." I do, however, find myself in awe of nature, my life, my sense of meaning, and my connection to everyone and everything around me, even more than when I was a Christian. I am enamored with a sense of the numinous and transcendent, if you will. So, in that sense, I could be labeled as "spiritual." I don't believe there is anything literal/other worldly that gives rise to this. But it's no less meaningful and wonderful to experience.

Hey, thanks for chiming in here. I agree. Sometimes I wonder ...is mankind hard wired to ponder the spiritual world or just hard wired to be curious? Curious about his surroundings, almost to a fault. Lol

I think it's reasonable to say so, that we are curious to a fault. Maybe our curiousity and patern seeking cognitive processes helped us survive all this time, but now they've run away with us and found their limit. The irony is that, since we are on the inside of this situation looking out, it might be impossible to know if that is the case or if there perhaps is something substantial to it. Does our curiosity about deeper meaning point to a runaway trait of evolution, or does it point to something real, outside of ourselves? I don't know, and I'm not sure we can know.

Even in the writing courses I've taken (fiction and screenwriting), the instructors emphasized this aspect of the human mind, to seek patterns and to create stories. Simply put, that's how mythology and religion arise. I believe this tendency is 'hard wired' in our brains, which are 'neural networks.' We naturally look for patterns, or make them up if we can't find a satisfactory one. We must build concepts to move from point A to point B, for both survival and progress. It seems to be an evolutionary aspect of our minds.

 

However with help from science, our stories can be reasonable and fact-based. Or, we can have fiction for entertainment, as long as we understand the difference between fictional and factual. The "something real, outside of ourselves" would simply be the universe, which we are a part of. The evolutionary tendencies themselves may not be accidental but an innate aspect of our existence, just as we apparently observe about the Cosmos itself. (I hear the Vangelis music playing in my mind and the words of Carl Sagan. Seriously, I am a Humanist, and I believe in the evolution of Humanity.)

I tend to agree Human. What is amazing to me is that all of this is more awe inspiring and wonderful to think about than Christian concepts ever were to me. I'm filled with wonder and curiosity about the universe in which we live. I have a deep feeling of connectedness and wonder that many Christians think one cannot have without a belief in God. I have no need to think there is anything supernatural about anything. Yet I am still moved with wonder and a sense of connection to everything.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 I think you are right though. The Bible God and Hell reeks of human character traits and methods.

 

 

 

There is no god.  The human brain is hard wired to negotiate.  We evolved to use bargaining as a survival tool.  It is even a stage in our grief process.  When somebody feels out of control they will want to bargain with some entity that is in control even if one does not exist.  We do not like to deny our instinct.  So when our loved ones die, when we get seriously ill, when our ship is caught in a storm, or when we lose our keys and will get fired if we are late we strike a bargain with powerful forces that have control over these things.  We create gods.

 

Nearly every culture for the last 50,000 years has created gods.  That is very strong evidence that creating gods is human nature.

 

 

This is a very useful explanation, or way of looking at it.  Is there a book or a thinker that you could refer me to for more information about this bargaining phenomenon?  I would like to learn more about it.  How does/did bargaining function as a survival tool? 

[Orbit]

 

 

 I think you are right though. The Bible God and Hell reeks of human character traits and methods.

 

 

 

There is no god.  The human brain is hard wired to negotiate.  We evolved to use bargaining as a survival tool.  It is even a stage in our grief process.  When somebody feels out of control they will want to bargain with some entity that is in control even if one does not exist.  We do not like to deny our instinct.  So when our loved ones die, when we get seriously ill, when our ship is caught in a storm, or when we lose our keys and will get fired if we are late we strike a bargain with powerful forces that have control over these things.  We create gods.

 

Nearly every culture for the last 50,000 years has created gods.  That is very strong evidence that creating gods is human nature.

 

 

This is a very useful explanation, or way of looking at it.  Is there a book or a thinker that you could refer me to for more information about this bargaining phenomenon?  I would like to learn more about it.  How does/did bargaining function as a survival tool? 

 

Dawkins talks about this in The God Delusion. If you Google "theory of mind" or search that on youtube, you'll find stuff. You might find this interesting: