What will it take

[realityrunt]

Christians, what will it take to convince you that Christianity is not true. What will it take to convince you that Jesus is not really there.

 

There must be something that can convince you, so what would it be.

[LogicalFallacy]

I will quote Ken Ham on this one as it sums up the attitude of many Christians:

 

"“I’m a Christian. I can’t prove it to you, but God has shown me clearly through his word and through his son that it is true. No one will convince me that the word of God is not true. The models of what is written cannot change.”

 

This is what he said during a debate with Bill Nye on Evolution vs Creation. What he said in effect was his beliefs were not open to debate... which makes one wonder what he was doing in a debating hall.

 

I have spent countless hours conversing with Christians on various platforms, asking for evidence, showing why Christianity is false and they all just reject the evidence and walk away. Creationists are by far and large the worst, but many others also will not consider that they might be wrong.

 

We have an example here with a Christian who frequents Ex-C.

 

@ironhorse Can you please answer primayzero's question? 

[realityrunt]

2 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

I will quote Ken Ham on this one as it sums up the attitude of many Christians:

 

"“I’m a Christian. I can’t prove it to you, but God has shown me clearly through his word and through his son that it is true. No one will convince me that the word of God is not true. The models of what is written cannot change.”

 

This is what he said during a debate with Bill Nye on Evolution vs Creation. What he said in effect was his beliefs were not open to debate... which makes one wonder what he was doing in a debating hall.

 

I have spent countless hours conversing with Christians on various platforms, asking for evidence, showing why Christianity is false and they all just reject the evidence and walk away. Creationists are by far and large the worst, but many others also will not consider that they might be wrong.

 

We have an example here with a Christian who frequents Ex-C.

 

@ironhorse Can you please answer primayzero's question? 

I'm starting to wonder if there's some brain chemistry that is preventing the true believer changing their minds.

[Lyra]

Remember that many of them are also conditioned to believe that dying for faith, if necessary, is the right thing to do.

[bornagainathiest]

Hello, PrimaryZero. 

 

LogicalFallacy is exactly right about Ken Ham.  Nothing will ever change his mind or cause him to renounce his beliefs. 

 

This is also true of the Christian that he mentioned, one Ironhorse. 

 

In the middle of last year another member (the anticrash) started off this thread... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/72898-christians-what-would-make-you-leave-your-faith/ 

 

Ironhorse's one-word reply is right there, in b&w. 

 

"Nothing."

 

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, primaryzero said:

I'm starting to wonder if there's some brain chemistry that is preventing the true believer changing their minds.

My theory is that it's a combination of things. #1 being not having any desire to be convinced. This is driven by: Not being prone to rational thinking. Being satisfied with where you are in life. Not having enough difficulties or challenges to make you question your beliefs. The social status, acceptance and support that comes with being part of the Christian community, particularly if you are regarded as a model Christian there. The last one is a big one for many people.

[realityrunt]

4 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

Hello, PrimaryZero. 

 

LogicalFallacy is exactly right about Ken Ham.  Nothing will ever change his mind or cause him to renounce his beliefs. 

 

This is also true of the Christian that he mentioned, one Ironhorse. 

 

In the middle of last year another member (the anticrash) started off this thread... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/72898-christians-what-would-make-you-leave-your-faith/ 

 

Ironhorse's one-word reply is right there, in b&w. 

 

"Nothing."

 

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

I guess that's where the discussion ends, no use fighting against nothing.

[bornagainathiest]

Posted 2 minutes ago

  18 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

Hello, PrimaryZero.  

 

LogicalFallacy is exactly right about Ken Ham.  Nothing will ever change his mind or cause him to renounce his beliefs. 

 

This is also true of the Christian that he mentioned, one Ironhorse. 

 

In the middle of last year another member (the anticrash) started off this thread... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/72898-christians-what-would-make-you-leave-your-faith/ 

 

Ironhorse's one-word reply is right there, in b&w. 

 

"Nothing."

 

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

I guess that's where the discussion ends, no use fighting against nothing.

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Ordinarily I'd agree with you, PZ.

But maybe your question isn't dead in the water?  Especially if it's Ironhorse himself who sets down the terms by which he'd have to reject his Christian faith.  So, maybe your question is being played out right now, in another thread?  Here...

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/77377-the-gifts-of-the-spirit/?page=2

 

Posted Friday at 04:37 PM

If the scriptures taught that the Gift of Healing (as practiced by Jesus and the Apostles) were for all believers throughout history, I would have to reject the Christian faith.

Because I do not see it happening today.

I have family and friends who genuinely sought for and prayed for healing. They all died.

I would be bitter and angry at God, if I had placed all my faith and trust in Him for a miracles and the miracles never happened.

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

11 minutes ago, primaryzero said:

I guess that's where the discussion ends, no use fighting against nothing.

 

Caveat:

 

There are some who can break out of this brain block. How do I know? Ex-Christians exist as a reality.

 

I once said that if I was the last Christian on earth I would still believe God. I can tell you where I said it and approximately how long ago (10 or so years ago at the back of the church). And yet here I am. While some truly won't change, we debate because we may reach a few who with our help can come to question, and even possibly leave once firmly held beliefs.

[Geezer]

1 hour ago, primaryzero said:

Christians, what will it take to convince you that Christianity is not true. What will it take to convince you that Jesus is not really there.

 

There must be something that can convince you, so what would it be.

 

Believers have been deeply brainwashed, and that brainwashing is re-enforced virtually on a daily basis, so the chances of convincing them the Bible simply isn't literally true or historically accurate is virtually nil. An indoctrinated mind is a closed mind. They will not hear a word you're saying to them. 

 

Until a a believer figures out, on their own, that the Bible is filled with inconsistenties, contradictions, & stuff that could not possibly be true it is a waste of time trying to reason with them. A believers time is better spend educating themselves about the historical origins & evolution of both the Bible & the Christian Faith.

 

 

[realityrunt]

2 hours ago, Lyra said:

Remember that many of them are also conditioned to believe that dying for faith, if necessary, is the right thing to do.

Do you think it's moral for a spiritual leader to expect his followers to die for him?

[realityrunt]

1 hour ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

My theory is that it's a combination of things. #1 being not having any desire to be convinced. This is driven by: Not being prone to rational thinking. Being satisfied with where you are in life. Not having enough difficulties or challenges to make you question your beliefs. The social status, acceptance and support that comes with being part of the Christian community, particularly if you are regarded as a model Christian there. The last one is a big one for many people.

I always had niggling doubts, that's because the faith didn't give me enough evidence to put them to rest.

[realityrunt]

1 hour ago, bornagainathiest said:

Posted 2 minutes ago

  18 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

Hello, PrimaryZero.  

 

LogicalFallacy is exactly right about Ken Ham.  Nothing will ever change his mind or cause him to renounce his beliefs. 

 

This is also true of the Christian that he mentioned, one Ironhorse. 

 

In the middle of last year another member (the anticrash) started off this thread... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/72898-christians-what-would-make-you-leave-your-faith/ 

 

Ironhorse's one-word reply is right there, in b&w. 

 

"Nothing."

 

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

I guess that's where the discussion ends, no use fighting against nothing.

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Ordinarily I'd agree with you, PZ.

But maybe your question isn't dead in the water?  Especially if it's Ironhorse himself who sets down the terms by which he'd have to reject his Christian faith.  So, maybe your question is being played out right now, in another thread?  Here...

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/77377-the-gifts-of-the-spirit/?page=2

 

Posted Friday at 04:37 PM

If the scriptures taught that the Gift of Healing (as practiced by Jesus and the Apostles) were for all believers throughout history, I would have to reject the Christian faith.

Because I do not see it happening today.

I have family and friends who genuinely sought for and prayed for healing. They all died.

I would be bitter and angry at God, if I had placed all my faith and trust in Him for a miracles and the miracles never happened.

 

 

Yep they never happened, ever.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I think the plain truth of it is that no christian really knows what would make him or her stop believing.  I certainly didn't know when I was a christian.  I can tell you now what made me stop believing.  But I didn't know until after it happened.

[realityrunt]

1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Caveat:

 

There are some who can break out of this brain block. How do I know? Ex-Christians exist as a reality.

 

I once said that if I was the last Christian on earth I would still believe God. I can tell you where I said it and approximately how long ago (10 or so years ago at the back of the church). And yet here I am. While some truly won't change, we debate because we may reach a few who with our help can come to question, and even possibly leave once firmly held beliefs.

We're not fighting with unreasonable objections, we're not fighting with incomprehensible subjective experience alone.

[realityrunt]

8 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I think the plain truth of it is that no christian really knows what would make him or her stop believing.  I certainly didn't know when I was a christian.  I can tell you now what made me stop believing.  But I didn't know until after it happened.

So there's no magic bullet?

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 minutes ago, primaryzero said:

So there's no magic bullet?

 

 

Technically, a bullet would make a christian stop believing, if it were strategically placed at a high velocity.  But I wouldn't condone that.

[ironhorse]

18 hours ago, primaryzero said:

Christians, what will it take to convince you that Christianity is not true. What will it take to convince you that Jesus is not really there.

 

There must be something that can convince you, so what would it be.

 

No, there is not anything else. I have already been through thinking and reading everything I could to try to convince me.

 

I like Hamm’s answer. I would add that, that to me, the reality of the universe and life is evidence that there is a God. It is a subjective view, but for me it solidifies my belief in Christ. Nothing I have read, seen, or heard about any other explanation has convinced me otherwise.

 

Concerning debates: Engaging in a debate does not necessarily imply you are open to being persuaded to the opposing view; One can debate/discuss to hear and learn more of opposing views and to explain their point of view not only to the opposition, but to the audience.

[Geezer]

 You are assuming Christ & God are one & the same. Christianity has a number of bizarre beliefs & the concept of a Trinity is one of them. 

[bornagainathiest]

2 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

No, there is not anything else. I have already been through thinking and reading everything I could to try to convince me.

 

I like Hamm’s answer. I would add that, that to me, the reality of the universe and life is evidence that there is a God. It is a subjective view, but for me it solidifies my belief in Christ. Nothing I have read, seen, or heard about any other explanation has convinced me otherwise.

 

Concerning debates: Engaging in a debate does not necessarily imply you are open to being persuaded to the opposing view; One can debate/discuss to hear and learn more of opposing views and to explain their point of view not only to the opposition, but to the audience.

 

You've just contradicted yourself, Ironhorse.

.

.

.

In this thread you say that there's nothing that would convince you that Christianity isn't true.

You also said nothing last year.  http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/72898-christians-what-would-make-you-leave-your-faith/

.

.

.

But last Friday you clearly defined something that would convince you that Christianity isn't true.  

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/77377-the-gifts-of-the-spirit/?page=2  Here is that something.

 

Posted Friday at 04:37 PM

If the scriptures taught that the Gift of Healing (as practiced by Jesus and the Apostles) were for all believers throughout history, I would have to reject the Christian faith.

Because I do not see it happening today.

I have family and friends who genuinely sought for and prayed for healing. They all died.

I would be bitter and angry at God, if I had placed all my faith and trust in Him for a miracles and the miracles never happened.

.

.

.

You can't say that there's nothing and something that would convince you that Christianity isn't true.

That's impossible.  That's two mutually-exclusive conditions.  You can't hold to both of them at the same time.  It's one or the other.   So which is it?  Please resolve your contradiction by telling us which one of these two (something or nothing) you're going to go with and which one you're going to retract.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[realityrunt]

1 hour ago, ironhorse said:

 

No, there is not anything else. I have already been through thinking and reading everything I could to try to convince me.

 

I like Hamm’s answer. I would add that, that to me, the reality of the universe and life is evidence that there is a God. It is a subjective view, but for me it solidifies my belief in Christ. Nothing I have read, seen, or heard about any other explanation has convinced me otherwise.

 

Concerning debates: Engaging in a debate does not necessarily imply you are open to being persuaded to the opposing view; One can debate/discuss to hear and learn more of opposing views and to explain their point of view not only to the opposition, but to the audience.

How is Jesus the creator of the universe, what visible attributes is the cosmos showing us that Jesus is the actual creator of it.

[bornagainathiest]

Posted 3 minutes ago

  2 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

No, there is not anything else. I have already been through thinking and reading everything I could to try to convince me.

 

I like Hamm’s answer. I would add that, that to me, the reality of the universe and life is evidence that there is a God. It is a subjective view, but for me it solidifies my belief in Christ. Nothing I have read, seen, or heard about any other explanation has convinced me otherwise.

 

Concerning debates: Engaging in a debate does not necessarily imply you are open to being persuaded to the opposing view; One can debate/discuss to hear and learn more of opposing views and to explain their point of view not only to the opposition, but to the audience.

How is Jesus the creator of the universe, what visible attributes is the cosmos showing us that Jesus is the actual creator of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh wow!  This should be good. 

 

For  y - e - a - r - s  I've asked Ironhorse to cite specific examples of Jesus' visible attributes that he sees in the cosmos. 

 

So far, nothing specific.  Nothing.  Nada.  Zip.  More power to you PZ, if you can get him to get specific.  

 

I'll sit back and watch him get specific. (While waiting for him to reply to my other posts, of course.)

 

 

[realityrunt]

5 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

Posted 3 minutes ago

  2 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

No, there is not anything else. I have already been through thinking and reading everything I could to try to convince me.

 

I like Hamm’s answer. I would add that, that to me, the reality of the universe and life is evidence that there is a God. It is a subjective view, but for me it solidifies my belief in Christ. Nothing I have read, seen, or heard about any other explanation has convinced me otherwise.

 

Concerning debates: Engaging in a debate does not necessarily imply you are open to being persuaded to the opposing view; One can debate/discuss to hear and learn more of opposing views and to explain their point of view not only to the opposition, but to the audience.

How is Jesus the creator of the universe, what visible attributes is the cosmos showing us that Jesus is the actual creator of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh wow!  This should be good. 

 

For  y - e - a - r - s  I've asked Ironhorse to cite specific examples of Jesus' visible attributes that he sees in the cosmos. 

 

So far, nothing specific.  Nothing.  Nada.  Zip.  More power to you PZ, if you can get him to get specific.  

 

I'll sit back and watch him get specific. (While waiting for him to reply to my other posts, of course.)

 

 

Seems like the only question I could ask.

[Guest]

Dying and not being in Heaven would convince me Christianity was wrong. Nothing short of dying will convince me. 

[LogicalFallacy]

10 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

Dying and not being in Heaven would convince me Christianity was wrong. Nothing short of dying will convince me. 

 

Dying and not being in heaven won't convince you of anything. You'll be dead.

 

So do you claim to be a gnostic theist? I.e. you know that God exists?

 

Or do you just strong believe God exists and you are not going to be persuaded otherwise?

 

Essentially if some artefact or other was discovered that proved beyond reasonable doubt that Christianity was false you would still believe?

 

What happens if you die and you end up standing before Zeus, or Allah... or El?