I'm Confused

[Dra_Mucd_Uha]

I'm really, really confused... I'm honestly split between being Agnostic/Athiest and being Christian. I've seen the evidence for both sides (not all, of course, but quite a bit) and I'm split right down the middle. Part of me sees Christianity as possibly being truth, and part of me sees it as being false. The stress level in my searching for the truth is soaring. I fosomeone could direct me to one oway or the other with evidence of their beliefs... I would really appreciate it... or maybe just adivce on finding truth?

 

I'm really desperate for truth.

 

-Dra Mucd Uha

[scotter]

Tell us for the evidences you have seen for Christianity, perhaps you heard/saw, or even personally experienced supernatural events attributed to Christianity? Or do you mean NT is the historical evidence that proves Jesus is the Messiah?

 

In addition, I like to hear from you about "evidence" of atheism/agnosticism.

 

The rest of us then can give opinions in explaining those evidences from the different perspectives so you are better informed, the final decision is still yours.

[Asimov]

I'm really, really confused... I'm honestly split between being Agnostic/Athiest and being Christian. I've seen the evidence for both sides (not all, of course, but quite a bit) and I'm split right down the middle. Part of me sees Christianity as possibly being truth, and part of me sees it as being false. The stress level in my searching for the truth is soaring. I fosomeone could direct me to one oway or the other with evidence of their beliefs... I would really appreciate it... or maybe just adivce on finding truth?

 

I'm really desperate for truth.

 

-Dra Mucd Uha

 

What do you mean by truth and what do you mean about Christianity as a possibility for truth?

[Dra_Mucd_Uha]

Tell us for the evidences you have seen for Christianity, perhaps you heard/saw, or even personally experienced supernatural events attributed to Christianity? Or do you mean NT is the historical evidence that proves Jesus is the Messiah?

 

In addition, I like to hear from you about "evidence" of atheism/agnosticism.

 

The rest of us then can give opinions in explaining those evidences from the different perspectives so you are better informed, the final decision is still yours.

Thanks. Okay....

 

I'm convinced Christianity is truth because... well.... basically because I've been brought up with it. I look at the prophecies about Israel being a nation again, and the historical evidence of the Bible, and the archeology, and... it just seems to fit.

 

But then.. when I go deeper... I see errors. My main problem is the bible's validity. I have been shown Bibilical contradictions (Jesus geneologies, differing creation accounts, different amount of animals on the Ark, the death of Judas, etc...) and failed prophecies (Nile drying up - Isaiah 19:5-7; Egypt's destruction - Ezekial 29:8-12) and I have to wonder... maybe I've been wrong this whole time. Maybe Christianity is just like Mormonism: It appears true, but... it just isn't... it has errors.

 

I've grown up with Christianity. To leave it would be to leave my life. I've made my life Christianity. I've put every part of me into it. I can't just leave... can I?

 

This is crazy.

 

What do you mean by truth and what do you mean about Christianity as a possibility for truth?

Truth, as in, the facts. What's real. What really exists. The oppostie of being false.

 

Christianity could be true... it's possible. Isn't it? If not, please show me. Or direct me to a place, or a book, or something that could show me.

 

Thanks.

[Lycorth]

Christianity could be true... it's possible. Isn't it? If not, please show me. Or direct me to a place, or a book, or something that could show me.

 

Anything is possible, but not everything is probable. I'd say that Xianity is improbable to the point of being virtually impossible.

 

Would something that is true contradict itself? The Babble contradicts itself on just about everything, especially basic points of faith. Check out Skeptic's Annotated Babble for a good list of the Xian Babble being "a house divided against itself" - just like Jesus™ said.

 

For Xianity to be true, Jesus™ would've had to have existed, right? Well, there's far more proof for his non-existence than for his existence; check out Jesus™ Never Existed for a lot of well-researched and easy to digest reasons that Jesus of Nazareth™ was most likely a total fabrication.

 

If Xianity were the real deal, why the mountains of evidence against it? Another good site is Agnostic Review of Xianity - another well-researched website full of very pertinent information on the various fallacies and failings of Xianity.

 

To me, these three websites have been the biggest help in looking at Xianity from a better perspective. And all the flaws in the Babble can be easily checked up on by pulling out any Babble - or just pull up Babble Gateway if you don't have the hard copy on hand. It's truly a lot of food for thought, and anyone interested in the reasons why people are no longer Xian should really take a good look at them.

 

I hope this is helpful to you.

[scitsofreaky]

I suggest reading Heimdall's blog. I swear, every thread he starts should be pinned for reference.

[Godless Wonder]

I'd be interested in hearing about evidence for Christianity. I have never seen or heard of any at all, not a single atom of evidence. Every single such claim of evidence for Christianity I have ever seen, without a single exception, has turned out to be no such thing, but instead an outright, baldfaced, blatant, deliberate and intentional lie, or the blind acceptance of such a lie, or a total misunderstanding of what evidence is.

[Mike D]

Part of me sees Christianity as possibly being truth, and part of me sees it as being false.

If you see Christianity as possibly being truth, couldn't you also see Islam as possibly being truth? And Hinduism? And Judaism? Or any other religion out there?

 

IMO, they are all true to a certain extent, since all holy books that I am aware of contain some real historical places, people and events. But does that mean their supernatural elements are true? Or even possibly true? In my opinion.... no. I consider myself an atheist because i've never been presented with any convicing evidence that the Christian god or any other god(s) exist, or that any of their respective religions are true...... even when I was a Christian. Like you, I "believed" becuase I was told I better believe whether I felt it was true or not. That's basically the same way little kids "know" Santa Claus is real....

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

I'm really, really confused... I'm honestly split between being Agnostic/Athiest and being Christian. I've seen the evidence for both sides (not all, of course, but quite a bit) and I'm split right down the middle. Part of me sees Christianity as possibly being truth, and part of me sees it as being false. The stress level in my searching for the truth is soaring. I fosomeone could direct me to one oway or the other with evidence of their beliefs... I would really appreciate it... or maybe just adivce on finding truth?

 

I'm really desperate for truth.

 

-Dra Mucd Uha

 

Agnostics. Pah! In my book there are only two kinds of agnostics. Those who are too afraid to admit they are atheists "just in case" and those who are fed up with Christianity but are too afraid to abandon it completely "just in case." I don't believe in the "cannot know so I'll sit on the sideline" philosophy. As for the believers who can't believe but still don't disbelieve I say, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." And for the non-believers who can't admit they don't believe public ally I say, "grow some balls."

 

I respect atheists who admit they are atheists and Christians who admit they are Christians, I have little respect for those who claim they sit on the fence. Call it the soldier in me but I think you have to be in the fight to be allowed to fight.

 

You think that Christianity may possibly be true. Is that partially true or true altogether? Can there be such a thing as partial truth or do you have to throw it out all together and start anew? You were born an atheist and became a Christian and are now on the path to returning to how you began. It is my experience that those who are on this path fear what may be if they are wrong, they fear the possibility of an after-life. That is a fear you were not born with it is a fear that was put into you. Tell me this. Can you remember what it was like before you were born? Of course you cannot. Your brain did not exist. After you die, your brain will not exist. It will be the same as before you were born. There will be no regrets, no shame, no fear, and nothing that could even register that you were even alive. It is nearly impossible to imagine such a state of not being alive and aware because that is the only state you have known and it is a feeling that is hard to give up. It is that very feeling that religion preys upon.

 

Even if there was a heaven, what is your concept of heaven like? Your only source of information for heaven is the Bible and it is not very descriptive of it. Sure there are theories running around about what it is like. It is described as paradise, but paradise is different things to different people. Would you lounge around for all eternity doing absolutely nothing? Would you play golf? Swim on a beach perhaps? And when you have spent half of eternity doing everything you have ever wanted to do, seeing things you have always wanted to see, having sex with all the virgins you could ever possibly want, what then for the other half of eternity? Maybe we should look to the Revelations in the Bible to see what you are going to do for all eternity. What's this? All you get to do is kneel down before god and sing his praises for all eternity? And you only get to sing one song?

 

Hell is looked at by many and the Bible. itself, quite thoroughly, but heaven is quite neglected. The preacherman talks of hell and punishment much more frequently than heaven and paradise. Why do you suppose that is? Why does the punishment get more attention than the salvation? I think you are smart enough to figure out the truth of that on your own.

 

Sometimes, we can point people in the direction of our own truths but I'll be damned if I'm going to lead anyone to my own like some sheep to a watering hole. That is no better than evangelism. It's impossible to do! We can raise questions that cause reflection and introspection and inspection in someone searching for the truth but convincing someone of our own truths requires seeker to be open wider than they should be. You can only find your own truths. Don’t be a sheep.

[Rosa Mystica]

I'm really, really confused... I'm honestly split between being Agnostic/Athiest and being Christian. I've seen the evidence for both sides (not all, of course, but quite a bit) and I'm split right down the middle. Part of me sees Christianity as possibly being truth, and part of me sees it as being false. The stress level in my searching for the truth is soaring. I fosomeone could direct me to one oway or the other with evidence of their beliefs... I would really appreciate it... or maybe just adivce on finding truth?

 

I'm really desperate for truth.

 

-Dra Mucd Uha

 

Hi Dra,

 

I know what it's like to be "split down the middle". It bloody well hurts.

 

I don't know what to advise, other than this: don't feel that you have to rush the search. Answers tend to come when we least expect them.

 

As for how to find the truth, just continue being honest with yourself. I think that being honest with yourself is probably the best thing to do when faced with a search. You won't find the real truth if you lie to yourself.

 

Nice to see you around here. If you wanna talk about anything, my pm box is always open.

 

Peace,

Rosa

[pandora]

Drah___: I know how you feel. I don't have any facts to offer, but I will tell you one thing that helped me get past those feelings... I studied other religions... both academically and as if I were a believer. I read their apologetics. I read their scriptures (at least what I had to for class). I saw that Christianity is no different than any other religion and that nothing makes it special apart from the others. In the end, all religions are basically the same (when we are talking about ones with a God/gods/bodhisattvas (Pure Land) etc....

 

I really am having a hard time explaining how easily I shed the fear you are struggling with. Well, I mean easily as in once I took the time to do it. Reading a few essays online over the course of a week is not going to do it for you. If you are in college, I suggest taking a world religions course, and then a course on Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism... It's a lot of work, but I am so confident now that I made the decision I did because I am educated about other belief systems.

 

Best wishes to you... it takes time and a lot of processing and such, but eventually you won't feel that tug of war in your soul anymore.

 

 

 

Agnostics. Pah! In my book there are only two kinds of agnostics. Those who are too afraid to admit they are atheists "just in case" and those who are fed up with Christianity but are too afraid to abandon it completely "just in case." I don't believe in the "cannot know so I'll sit on the sideline" philosophy. As for the believers who can't believe but still don't disbelieve I say, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." And for the non-believers who can't admit they don't believe public ally I say, "grow some balls."

 

 

 

Hey Jeff... I saw this and I just have to comment. I am technically an agnostic, but practically an athiest. I am not one for reasons you listed, however... I honestly am convinced philosophically that no one knows with proof that there is or isn't a god, and as it looks now, I don't think there is a way to prove it either way. I am not secretly wishing for Christianity to be true or any belief system to be true. I am not afraid of coming out as an athiest. I always tell people I am athiest in the way I conduct my life. I do, however, keep the back of my mind open to the possibilty that *something* is out there that we do not understand yet. I truly feel that way. I do not cling to this because of fear of death or any such thing, either... And what is God anyway? Does God have to be supernatural? And so on... can you see my point? While the athiest stance isn't exactly one of "faith" as the Christians mean, it is one of faith according to a philosophical definition. At least in my book... I guess a prof of mine had a lot of influence on me on this matter.

[spamandham]

I'm really, really confused... I'm really desperate for truth.

 

-Dra Mucd Uha

 

(don't say I didn't warn you )

 

Take a deep breath and do the following. Go to your local library and check out a copy of Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World", and read it as fast as you can. Once you've done that, ask yourself why you belive Christianity might have truth to it and approach it from a scientific perspective - try to falsify your beliefs rather than looking to confirm them! When you arrive at a set you can not falsify, you are more likely to be on the right track, but attempts at falsification is a lifelong endeavor (unless you quit caring).

 

Life really is better without the brain fuck. It isn't perfect or without pain, but it is better. Faith is a placebo that fails you when you really need it.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

Pandora,

"possibilty that *something* is out there that we do not understand yet"

 

Personally, I wouldn't call you an agnostic, you sound more like a spiritualist. I don't think that spiritualism is a bad thing in any way, my own girlfriend is a spiritualist and believes and disbelieves the same way you do. The key is the 2 definitions of atheists. The ones who believe that no gods or spirits, whatever you want to call them, exist at all but are aware of the beliefs and those who have never had a concept of a diety-type at all. Agnostics who are going from concept to disbelief are those who choose to sit on the fence when it comes to religion, those who never had a concept of any gods, like a child before the introduction of religion, are wandering towards something new but can't quite accept it. When you said the above quote it tells me that you are open to the possibility and not discounting any possibility as impossible. Fence sitters, the ones with no balls, say it is impossible to know if there is a possibility and are not open to it at all.

 

Hope this clears up my position.

[Asimov]

I'm convinced Christianity is truth because... well.... basically because I've been brought up with it. I look at the prophecies about Israel being a nation again, and the historical evidence of the Bible, and the archeology, and... it just seems to fit.

 

What prophecy? What historical evidence? What archaeology (which I assume is historical evidence)?

 

Maybe Christianity is just like Mormonism: It appears true, but... it just isn't... it has errors.

 

Um...appears to be true?

 

I've grown up with Christianity. To leave it would be to leave my life. I've made my life Christianity. I've put every part of me into it. I can't just leave... can I?

 

Why not?

 

 

Truth, as in, the facts. What's real. What really exists. The oppostie of being false.

 

I know what truth means...but if you're asking for absolute truth then nobody can really help you. If you're asking for specific truths, then we can.

 

Christianity could be true... it's possible. Isn't it? If not, please show me. Or direct me to a place, or a book, or something that could show me.

 

Thanks.

 

No, it's not a possibility.

[BlueGiant]

Yeah, you can leave Christianity, if you want, even if you built your life on it. That's what I did, along with many others here. It isn't an easy thing necessarially, but I, for one found that leaving was less painful than knowingly living a lie.

 

Also, religion isn't a binary proposition, and there are more games in town that Christianity vs. Atheist. A lot of it is finding your own truth, most importantly, one that you can live with.

[white_raven23]

Truth? As in absolute Truth?

 

My dear there is simply no such thing.

 

No one really knows, or has the absolute answer. Religion "claims" to have answers the way the snake-oil salesman claims to have the cure for all your woes....for a price.

 

Only you can decide what you really want.

 

Do you want the comfortable, stable, and familiar even if you know it's a lie?

 

Or are you ready for the instable, but honest admission that no one really knows?

 

And you need to read up on how the nation of Israel came to be. And take a look at what has happened in that area of the world ever since the powers that be decided to make the literary into a reality.

[pandora]

Pandora,

"possibilty that *something* is out there that we do not understand yet"

 

Personally, I wouldn't call you an agnostic, you sound more like a spiritualist. I don't think that spiritualism is a bad thing in any way, my own girlfriend is a spiritualist and believes and disbelieves the same way you do. The key is the 2 definitions of atheists. The ones who believe that no gods or spirits, whatever you want to call them, exist at all but are aware of the beliefs and those who have never had a concept of a diety-type at all. Agnostics who are going from concept to disbelief are those who choose to sit on the fence when it comes to religion, those who never had a concept of any gods, like a child before the introduction of religion, are wandering towards something new but can't quite accept it. When you said the above quote it tells me that you are open to the possibility and not discounting any possibility as impossible. Fence sitters, the ones with no balls, say it is impossible to know if there is a possibility and are not open to it at all.

 

Hope this clears up my position.

 

 

No, I think the Christian God is an impossibility. Same for Buddhism, and any other namable religion I can think of.

 

I have no named God or defined Gods. I have no concept of a god, I think it is possible that something is complex enough that we don't understand it... but once we understand it, it becomes natural, and defined, and it is no longer a god. In other words, I am unsure if there is a maximum beyond what we can concieve; kinda like how some lower animals can't figure out complex problems or seem to learn beyond a certain point, and most animals aren't really complex, but they are just incapable of experiencing anything higher because of their level of evolution or biology. We don't know if our intelligence limit (when it comes to figuring out the world scientifically) is lower than or greater than ultimate reality. It's that simple. I guess the one thing that I have defined in my mind is that if we are smart enough to figure out all of what encompasses reality is really all that encompasses reality, we are literally becoming Gods... maybe not our person egos, but we are on that path of evolution... but only if our ability to comprehend and learn is good enough to accurately interpret all that exists exactly correctly.

[Kryten]

Check out Why Won't God Heal Amputees and then let us know where your head is. It is the most logical examination of God and Christianity I've seen. Not the most comprehensive or exhaustive study, but you can do research later. Read this site first.

[SkepticOfBible]

Check out the website in my signature. It illustrate the difference between the OT and NT, and how OT contradicts the NT.

 

Also check out the following counter missionary website

 

http://www.messiahtruth.com/

http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/

[MrSpooky]

I always maintained that a deeper philosophical approach is necessary. First get a good understanding of the Burden of Proof and work from there. Look up George H. Smith's "Atheism: The Case Against God."

 

If Christianity has no evidence backing it up, then I'd chuck it aside. I think consistency and inconsistency within the Bible is fine, but consistency alone doesn't make the Bible true (though inconsistency is a good sign that it's false). Just take the more direct route and study the philosophical underpinnings of religion.

[Dra_Mucd_Uha]

Anything is possible' date=' but not everything is probable. I'd say that Xianity is improbable to the point of being virtually impossible.

 

Would something that is true contradict itself? The Babble contradicts itself on just about everything, especially basic points of faith. Check out Skeptic's Annotated Babble for a good list of the Xian Babble being "a house divided against itself" - just like Jesus™ said.

 

For Xianity to be true, Jesus™ would've had to have existed, right? Well, there's far more proof for his non-existence than for his existence; check out Jesus™ Never Existed for a lot of well-researched and easy to digest reasons that Jesus of Nazareth™ was most likely a total fabrication.

 

If Xianity were the real deal, why the mountains of evidence against it? Another good site is Agnostic Review of Xianity - another well-researched website full of very pertinent information on the various fallacies and failings of Xianity.

 

To me, these three websites have been the biggest help in looking at Xianity from a better perspective. And all the flaws in the Babble can be easily checked up on by pulling out any Babble - or just pull up Babble Gateway if you don't have the hard copy on hand. It's truly a lot of food for thought, and anyone interested in the reasons why people are no longer Xian should really take a good look at them.

 

I hope this is helpful to you.[/quote']

Thanks, a lot... I need all the help I can get.

 

I'd be interested in hearing about evidence for Christianity. I have never seen or heard of any at all, not a single atom of evidence. Every single such claim of evidence for Christianity I have ever seen, without a single exception, has turned out to be no such thing, but instead an outright, baldfaced, blatant, deliberate and intentional lie, or the blind acceptance of such a lie, or a total misunderstanding of what evidence is.

Really? It looks like it can go both ways...

 

If you see Christianity as possibly being truth, couldn't you also see Islam as possibly being truth? And Hinduism? And Judaism? Or any other religion out there?

 

IMO, they are all true to a certain extent, since all holy books that I am aware of contain some real historical places, people and events. But does that mean their supernatural elements are true? Or even possibly true? In my opinion.... no. I consider myself an atheist because i've never been presented with any convicing evidence that the Christian god or any other god(s) exist, or that any of their respective religions are true...... even when I was a Christian. Like you, I "believed" becuase I was told I better believe whether I felt it was true or not. That's basically the same way little kids "know" Santa Claus is real....

Yeah, they are all true to a certain extent. I have been raised that all of Christianity is true. I have seen the Christians give evidence for it, now I'm looking for non-christians to give evidence against it.

 

Hi Dra,

 

I know what it's like to be "split down the middle". It bloody well hurts.

 

I don't know what to advise, other than this: don't feel that you have to rush the search. Answers tend to come when we least expect them.

 

As for how to find the truth, just continue being honest with yourself. I think that being honest with yourself is probably the best thing to do when faced with a search. You won't find the real truth if you lie to yourself.

 

Nice to see you around here. If you wanna talk about anything, my pm box is always open.

 

Peace,

Rosa

Thanks for the offer... look for a pm soon probably. And yes, it does hurt!

 

JGJ@ReligionisBullshit (post was long... don't want to take up too much space on my post lol) thanks for the post. Lots of things to think about... on top of everything else... there's a lot of confusion on this side of the internet.

 

Drah___: I know how you feel. I don't have any facts to offer, but I will tell you one thing that helped me get past those feelings... I studied other religions... both academically and as if I were a believer. I read their apologetics. I read their scriptures (at least what I had to for class). I saw that Christianity is no different than any other religion and that nothing makes it special apart from the others. In the end, all religions are basically the same (when we are talking about ones with a God/gods/bodhisattvas (Pure Land) etc....

 

I really am having a hard time explaining how easily I shed the fear you are struggling with. Well, I mean easily as in once I took the time to do it. Reading a few essays online over the course of a week is not going to do it for you. If you are in college, I suggest taking a world religions course, and then a course on Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism... It's a lot of work, but I am so confident now that I made the decision I did because I am educated about other belief systems.

 

Best wishes to you... it takes time and a lot of processing and such, but eventually you won't feel that tug of war in your soul anymore.

Yeah, I'm 16, not quite in college yet

 

(don't say I didn't warn you )

 

Take a deep breath and do the following. Go to your local library and check out a copy of Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World", and read it as fast as you can. Once you've done that, ask yourself why you belive Christianity might have truth to it and approach it from a scientific perspective - try to falsify your beliefs rather than looking to confirm them! When you arrive at a set you can not falsify, you are more likely to be on the right track, but attempts at falsification is a lifelong endeavor (unless you quit caring).

 

Life really is better without the brain fuck. It isn't perfect or without pain, but it is better. Faith is a placebo that fails you when you really need it.

lol... =P Yeah. I just don't want to make a mistake if CHristianity is true.

 

What prophecy? What historical evidence? What archaeology (which I assume is historical evidence)?

Israel becoming a country again. I dunno about archeology, I've only heard of it.

 

Um...appears to be true?

Due to lack of evidence against it...

 

Why not?

I could leave Christianity... but it'd be hard. I'm sure have had a harder time though...

 

I know what truth means...but if you're asking for absolute truth then nobody can really help you. If you're asking for specific truths, then we can.

good

 

I know what truth means...but if you're asking for absolute truth then nobody can really help you. If you're asking for specific truths, then we can.

Why not?

 

Yeah, you can leave Christianity, if you want, even if you built your life on it. That's what I did, along with many others here. It isn't an easy thing necessarially, but I, for one found that leaving was less painful than knowingly living a lie.

 

Also, religion isn't a binary proposition, and there are more games in town that Christianity vs. Atheist. A lot of it is finding your own truth, most importantly, one that you can live with.

For me it's not necessarily what I can live with that matters, but what's true.

 

time, sorry, I have to go.

 

-Dra Mucd Uha

[spamandham]

Israel becoming a country again. I dunno about archeology, I've only heard of it.

 

The prophecy was specific that the Messiah would be the one to resurrect Israel, and would be it's king. That isn't how it happened. To get around these inconvenient inconsistencies Christians use hand waving arguments about how Jesus was pulling the strings behind the scenes (even though the OT messiah was an actual person and not a spirit) and how he's going to become the king of Israel in the future.

 

Well, ok then, the best you can claim is that the prophecy is going to be fulfilled, not that it has been fulfilled. How is that any different than the situation before the formation of Israel in 1948? If this is a true prophecy, Israel could be snuffed out again before Jesus shows up to resurrect it again and the prophecy would be fulfilled. The existence of Israel today is not a "partial fulfillment", nor can it be claimed to be "setting the stage", until the messiah shows up. Until then, it's just what it is; the result of zionist effort.

 

Interestingly, if not for Christian persecution of Jews for the past 2000 years, Zionists would probably not even exist. If not for end-times hysteria which the Zionists helped to stir up in the late 1800s (which continues today), Christians would not have supported the formation of a Jewish state. So in this sense, I suppose there is a causal link between Jesus and the reformation of Israel, but he still doesn't sit on a throne there.

[Asimov]

Israel becoming a country again. I dunno about archeology, I've only heard of it.

 

Due to lack of evidence against it...

 

I could leave Christianity... but it'd be hard. I'm sure have had a harder time though...

 

good

Why not?

 

Just from reading your responses above, I can conclude these things:

 

1) You are ignorant of Christian argumentation.

2) Despite this, you maintain that there is no evidence against it....so you are either misguided or dishonest.

 

If you want us to give you the answer to life, the universe, and everything then you really are asking way too much for people who has just as much potential as you intellectually and rationally. We can't give you a reason to give up Christianity or any religion. YOU have to do the thinking. YOU have to do the research.

 

YOU can ask questions of us and bring up specific arguments that you might have heard or whatever, but I find it highly ironic that some 16 year old kid is telling me that there is no evidence against Christianity when he doesn't even know anything about it.

 

[Dra_Mucd_Uha]

The prophecy was specific that the Messiah would be the one to resurrect Israel, and would be it's king. That isn't how it happened. To get around these inconvenient inconsistencies Christians use hand waving arguments about how Jesus was pulling the strings behind the scenes (even though the OT messiah was an actual person and not a spirit) and how he's going to become the king of Israel in the future.

 

Well, ok then, the best you can claim is that the prophecy is going to be fulfilled, not that it has been fulfilled. How is that any different than the situation before the formation of Israel in 1948? If this is a true prophecy, Israel could be snuffed out again before Jesus shows up to resurrect it again and the prophecy would be fulfilled. The existence of Israel today is not a "partial fulfillment", nor can it be claimed to be "setting the stage", until the messiah shows up. Until then, it's just what it is; the result of zionist effort.

 

Interestingly, if not for Christian persecution of Jews for the past 2000 years, Zionists would probably not even exist. If not for end-times hysteria which the Zionists helped to stir up in the late 1800s (which continues today), Christians would not have supported the formation of a Jewish state. So in this sense, I suppose there is a causal link between Jesus and the reformation of Israel, but he still doesn't sit on a throne there.

Wow. Yeah I've noticed there are quite a few places where Christians try to cover up mistakes in a similiar way, using behind the scenes scenarios. They seem to make many unsupported assumptions. To me the prophecy of Israel becoming a nation again has always stood out. But, just like everything else in my life these days, I wasn't told much about it, just what the Christians want me to hear (Christian homes do that to you). I haven't heard the "other side" of Christianity.

 

Just from reading your responses above, I can conclude these things:

 

1) You are ignorant of Christian argumentation.

2) Despite this, you maintain that there is no evidence against it....so you are either misguided or dishonest.

 

If you want us to give you the answer to life, the universe, and everything then you really are asking way too much for people who has just as much potential as you intellectually and rationally. We can't give you a reason to give up Christianity or any religion. YOU have to do the thinking. YOU have to do the research.

 

YOU can ask questions of us and bring up specific arguments that you might have heard or whatever, but I find it highly ironic that some 16 year old kid is telling me that there is no evidence against Christianity when he doesn't even know anything about it.

Ouch

 

Allow me to correct myself.

 

I did not mean, contrary to my words, that there is no evidence against Christianity. I meant I do not see any evidence against Christianity. Thus my reasons for coming here. I'm looking for that evidence. You think I came here for... what? To get the answer to life, the universe, and everything? No, I came here to see if there is any evidence against Christianity, but if there is, I know of none. Or, as of now, only some.

 

btw, I AM doing the thinking, and I AM doing the research. Again, hence my reasons for being here. I also have quite a few recommended books on my list of books to read, which I plan on buying sometime in the near future.

 

I am aware of everyone's rational and intellectual potential. Everyone has it. Some people just choose not to use it.

 

Thanks for the post

 

-Dra Mucd Uha

[greasemonkey]

Hey Dra!

 

try checking out this link.

 

It will be a nice little mental exercise even if you don't agree with it. ...just enter and follow the link at the bottom to "12 easy peices."