Theistic Evolution

[Skankboy]

Nothing existed, except God. God then creates the Universe, as it is right at this moment from our perspective. You and I think we have been in a conversation but everything was just created. All the evolution "signs" are there and from this moment on all the rules are obeyed. I.e. natural selection, mutation, etc.

 

Ah, the old "God's a lier, but it's ok because he's god" argument. Here's a question for you TCH, is your version of god "perfect"?

[Ouroboros]

The world was created last Tuesday.

 

I can accept that.

 

Out the window flies the credibility of common sense.

It's from some philosophy book I read once. And can anyone prove with common sense, facts or intelligence that it wasn't? (Personally I don't believe it did, but can I prove it didn't?)

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

The world was created last Tuesday.

 

I can accept that.

 

Out the window flies the credibility of common sense.

It's from some philosophy book I read once. And can anyone prove with common sense, facts or intelligence that it wasn't? (Personally I don't believe it did, but can I prove it didn't?)

 

Why? Philosophically it is unimportant, paradoxical nonsense. Can I prove I was here last Monday before creation? Why would I have to in order to consider it nonsense? People will believe what they want to believe regardless of evidence, proof, intellegence, facts or common sense. It's all relative philosophical belief which I support. That fact that this incredible belief violates my common sense doesn't make the statement that we were created last Tuesday any more or less credible to you or anyone else but me. Since the statement itself provides no proof, facts, or intelligence to its credibility and just makes a statement of philosophical belief. No proof, facts, or intelligence is required to confirm nor deny it. Thus, the philosophical belief that we were created last Tuesday only requires a philosophical belief that it violates my common sense.

[jbthree]

Back to the original topic...

 

1 - Are they not in harmony?

2 - Are they not consistent with each other?

3 - Does this apply?

4 - We'd need some kind of criteria/criterion to which to measure this one.

 

[JB] Let's not complicate this. Does scripture offer any support for the theory of evolution? Can the creation of all life forms created in Genesis be in harmony with the evolution of life forms? If evolution is true, why are most species the same as they were when created?

 

How do we reconcile human evolution with the creation of Adam and Eve?

 

Peace

[jbthree]

Good (to your last post). I have one word why I know God exists:

 

I lost my faith many years ago, and I couldn't get it back. Simple as that. And it wasn't really by logic that I lost it, but purely emotional. It was just gone. I still have a hard time explaining it. And my last prayer was to God (supposed being in the sky that can hear my prayers) to give me faith again. And I'm still waiting. So if God does exist, then it is his will for me to be an agnostic atheist.

 

[JB] I don't believe that's true. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:31). If you genuinely repented of your sins and trusted in Christ to be your Savior, then you are saved. Otherwise, it is likely that you have apostasized from a formerly held "profession" of faith. It is impossible to lose your salvation (Rom. 8:29-39). Please read these verses very carefully and let them speak to you.

 

Peace

[TCH]

[JB] Let's not complicate this. Does scripture offer any support for the theory of evolution? Can the creation of all life forms created in Genesis be in harmony with the evolution of life forms? If evolution is true, why are most species the same as they were when created?

 

How do we reconcile human evolution with the creation of Adam and Eve?

 

Peace

 

jbthree:

 

1 - Does scripture offer any support for the theory of evolution? No. But there is nothing in it that refutes it either.

2 - Can the creation of all life forms created in Genesis be in harmony with the evolution of life forms? Yes.

3 - If evolution is true, why are most species the same as they were when created? They're not.

4 - How do we reconcile human evolution with the creation of Adam and Eve? Can I assume that you are speaking of man's ultimate progenitor being from the primordial ooze? If so we were created from the dust with that as our biological origin.

[Ouroboros]

[JB] I don't believe that's true. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:31). If you genuinely repented of your sins and trusted in Christ to be your Savior, then you are saved. Otherwise, it is likely that you have apostasized from a formerly held "profession" of faith. It is impossible to lose your salvation (Rom. 8:29-39). Please read these verses very carefully and let them speak to you.

Very funny. I was Christian for 30 years. And you say that I don't know what I feel, shouldn't trust what I think or believe, but I should trust your opinion? For what it's worth, you could be a demon in disguise trying to lure me into another sect.

 

And look what you said: "I don't believe that's true." Meaning, what you believe should trump my experience and insight. Is that pride you're showing?

[white_raven23]

white_raven23:

Using foul language does nothing but show your lack of intelligence. Lumping all Christians in one category seems to be a stupid argument, as I cannot believe you have met all Christians or spoken to them on this subject. You remind me of people who state things as facts but when pressed cannot give you their source of information.

 

I have every right to speak any way I please. If I want to swear, I'm perfectly free to do so. Sorry I was so long getting back to this, but I've been laid low by a cold the last few days. Don't want you getting the impression that I'm going to sit back and let you say that. Obviously you want to be provocative.......

 

Well that's just adorable of you! You are just too cute! *pinches cheek*

 

You do realize your response to me was a result of a post where I express my opinion, don't you? I am not required to cite my sources for an OPINION, And if you are under the mistaken impression that I am, then you belong over at ChristianForums.

 

And I will even cite my source for that opinion....just for special little YOU.

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=8473

 

Just so you know, I didn't get my Batchelor's in Psychology without knowing very clearly how to cite a source you patronizing flake of simian scrotal fungus.

 

Enjoy that visual.

[TCH]

Site your sources for => "It doesn't matter how many times you try to explain the difference between 'evolving from' monkeys (the anti-evolution christian MYTH), and "sharing a common ancestor' with monkeys."

 

Is the myth that the proto-human was not a monkey? Something else?

 

"Just so you know, I didn't get my Batchelor's in Psychology without knowing very clearly how to cite a source you patronizing flake of simian scrotal fungus."

 

I have a Bachelor degree too, from an accredited University. Are you always this rude to people?

[white_raven23]

Site your sources for => "It doesn't matter how many times you try to explain the difference between 'evolving from' monkeys (the anti-evolution christian MYTH), and "sharing a common ancestor' with monkeys."

 

Is the myth that the proto-human was not a monkey? Something else?

 

"Just so you know, I didn't get my Batchelor's in Psychology without knowing very clearly how to cite a source you patronizing flake of simian scrotal fungus."

 

I have a Bachelor degree too, from an accredited University. Are you always this rude to people?

Do you really want to bandy about the spelling of Batchelor's? Okay. I put both your spelling and mine into my Word program just to check......and it didn't have a problem with either spelling. Which annoys the heck out of me, seeing as I write most of my posts in that program. And I did check that one. And I'm annoyed at the program now, because it makes me look like a twit. I checked around.....and it should have zinged me on that spelling. It didn't. But I did check it before posting. Grrr.

 

And now I see the problem, and what you thought required citation. My mistake, as I thought anyone who had researched even the basics of evolution would have come across this. I wrongly assumed it was fairly "common" knowledge. Sorry about that.

 

Here you go.... and I'll stick to web sites seeing as they are easier to check.

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat02.html

 

1. Did we evolve from monkeys?

 

Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn't evolve from apes, either. Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees. Scientists believe this common ancestor existed

5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human ancestors called hominids.

 

And another....

http://www.hhmi.org/askascientist/answers/...al/ans_007.html

 

Couldn't pull a quote from that one.....site wouldn't let me. But it's good. Have a look.

 

And a similar one...

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/dec96...55295.Ev.r.html

 

You question implies a common misconception about how the process of evolution works. It is not that humans descended from monkeys, but that humans share a common ancestor with monkeys. This is similar to saying that you and your brother or sister share a common ancestor (your parents)or that you and your first cousins share a common ancestor (your grandparents). In the same way, species such as human and monkeys share common ancestors, but we must look back further in time to find these individuals. The common ancestor of modern humans probably resembled a chimpanzee or gorilla rather than a modern human. New species tend to form when populations become isolated and accumulate genetic and physical differences. Humans developed a bipedal stance, a different brain size, and reduced hair relative to their primate common ancestor. Chimpanzees and gorillas may have changed their appearance from the common ancestor as well. When new species form they do not necessarily disappear or go extinct. This is the case with the humans and chimpanzees where we see both species in nature. Evolution is not a directed process, where one species strives to become another. Species evolve in response to changes in the environment. The probability that chimpanzees or other primates will evolve into a human is thus very small.

 

And now then.....as for my being "rude".......YOU tried to be language police. And while you are entitled to your opinion, I am not required in any way to comply with it.

 

I went to UAA, it is also an accredited university. Not that it really matters much seeing as I can't remember the correct spelling for my own damn degree. *kicks own shin* I'm having a great day.

[chefranden]

[JB] I don't believe that's true. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:31). If you genuinely repented of your sins and trusted in Christ to be your Savior, then you are saved. Otherwise, it is likely that you have apostasized from a formerly held "profession" of faith. It is impossible to lose your salvation (Rom. 8:29-39). Please read these verses very carefully and let them speak to you.

 

Peace

 

Then Ezekiel is a liar then?

 

18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

 

I'm sure that you have not noticed that this doctrine means that you cannot know you are saved. You cannot know until you die since up that point you may reject god showing that you were never saved. Since we do not know that you are saved, why should we listen to you rather than Zeke?

 

 

Just so you know, I didn't get my Batchelor's in Psychology without knowing very clearly how to cite a source you patronizing flake of simian scrotal fungus.

 

Enjoy that visual.

 

 

 

I have a Bachelor degree too, from an accredited University. Are you always this rude to people?

 

She's not rude to me.

[jbthree]

[JB] I don't believe that's true. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:31). If you genuinely repented of your sins and trusted in Christ to be your Savior, then you are saved. Otherwise, it is likely that you have apostasized from a formerly held "profession" of faith. It is impossible to lose your salvation (Rom. 8:29-39). Please read these verses very carefully and let them speak to you.

Very funny. I was Christian for 30 years. And you say that I don't know what I feel, shouldn't trust what I think or believe, but I should trust your opinion? For what it's worth, you could be a demon in disguise trying to lure me into another sect.

 

And look what you said: "I don't believe that's true." Meaning, what you believe should trump my experience and insight. Is that pride you're showing?

 

[JB] Please notice that I gave you scripture, not my opinion. Using Rom. 8:29-39, please share how a Christian can lose his or her Christianity.

 

Peace

[jbthree]

[JB] Let's not complicate this. Does scripture offer any support for the theory of evolution? Can the creation of all life forms created in Genesis be in harmony with the evolution of life forms? If evolution is true, why are most species the same as they were when created?

 

How do we reconcile human evolution with the creation of Adam and Eve?

 

Peace

 

jbthree:

 

1 - Does scripture offer any support for the theory of evolution? No. But there is nothing in it that refutes it either.

 

[JB] Sure there is. This is why I ask how evolution explains the origins of humanity. Adam and Eve obviously didn't evolve according to scritpure, yet science tells us that we evolved from some kind ape-like creature (still missing:-)

 

3 - If evolution is true, why are most species the same as they were when created? They're not.

 

[JB] Genesis records the creation of cattle, fish, fowl and vegetation. Today we have cattle, fish, fowl and vegetation. Where is the evolution?

 

4 - How do we reconcile human evolution with the creation of Adam and Eve? Can I assume that you are speaking of man's ultimate progenitor being from the primordial ooze? If so we were created from the dust with that as our biological origin.

 

[JB] No, I'm not talking about the "ooze." Scripture clearly says that God created man from the dust of the earth and the woman from his rib. How does evolution fit in?

 

Peace

[jbthree]

[JB] I don't believe that's true. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:31). If you genuinely repented of your sins and trusted in Christ to be your Savior, then you are saved. Otherwise, it is likely that you have apostasized from a formerly held "profession" of faith. It is impossible to lose your salvation (Rom. 8:29-39). Please read these verses very carefully and let them speak to you.

 

Peace

 

Then Ezekiel is a liar then?

 

18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

 

I'm sure that you have not noticed that this doctrine means that you cannot know you are saved. You cannot know until you die since up that point you may reject god showing that you were never saved. Since we do not know that you are saved, why should we listen to you rather than Zeke?

 

[JB] Ezek. 18:24 speaks of apostasy. Someone was never sincerely righteous, but passed for a righteous man. He had the denomination and all the EXTERNAL marks and trimmings of a righteous man; he thought himself one, and others thought him one. But he throws off his profession, leaves his first love, disowns and forsakes the truth and ways of God. The Apostle John spoke of such a person: "If they had been of us, they would, no doubt, have continued with us." (1 John 2:19). Ex-Christians are more likely apostates; once holding to a form of godliness, but denying its power (2 Tim. 3:5).

 

Peace

[TCH]

[JB] Sure there is. This is why I ask how evolution explains the origins of humanity. Adam and Eve obviously didn't evolve according to scritpure, yet science tells us that we evolved from some kind ape-like creature (still missing:-)

 

[JB] Genesis records the creation of cattle, fish, fowl and vegetation. Today we have cattle, fish, fowl and vegetation. Where is the evolution?

 

[JB] No, I'm not talking about the "ooze." Scripture clearly says that God created man from the dust of the earth and the woman from his rib. How does evolution fit in?

 

Your arguments don't hold water. My God can do anything. That means creating Adam and Eve, with their entire evolutionary background in an instant. This concept may be too difficult for you to comprehend.

 

So you’re implying (or I’m inferring from your statement) that the fossil records we are continuing to uncover are what, a government plot, Satan’s plan? Have you studied Evolution and Natural Selection? Have you read “The Origin of Species” by Charles Darwin? (that’s the short name it’s actually longer)

[Ouroboros]

[JB] I don't believe that's true. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:31). If you genuinely repented of your sins and trusted in Christ to be your Savior, then you are saved. Otherwise, it is likely that you have apostasized from a formerly held "profession" of faith. It is impossible to lose your salvation (Rom. 8:29-39). Please read these verses very carefully and let them speak to you.

Very funny. I was Christian for 30 years. And you say that I don't know what I feel, shouldn't trust what I think or believe, but I should trust your opinion? For what it's worth, you could be a demon in disguise trying to lure me into another sect.

 

And look what you said: "I don't believe that's true." Meaning, what you believe should trump my experience and insight. Is that pride you're showing?

 

[JB] Please notice that I gave you scripture, not my opinion. Using Rom. 8:29-39, please share how a Christian can lose his or her Christianity.

 

Peace

I think we have a new Daniel in our company. Or a OSAS theologian. Are you Southern Baptist?

 

To answer your question

1. You did say "[JB] I don't believe that's true." - which means that it is your opinion. But still you said now that you didn't. If you're going to discuss with me, you have to be honest. What you just did was extremely dishonest.

 

2. Regarding how I lost my faith, I'm still trying to explain it to myself, so I'm not sure I will do justice to the reasons. But here goes:

 

I went through hardship and difficulties starting from 1990. Financial or work. The problems and challenges culminated in 96, when all my kids were hurt in a car accident, after three holy ghost filled and fully believing christians stood on the verse that Jesus would be among them, but the accident happened anyway. The trouble continued and there were no solutions, but financially it got only harder and more difficult, but now we couldn't even go t church, because we had to take care of a handicapped son. We tried to stay on track, but my doubts increased when I saw that we would never have a normal life again. I prayed. I was in doubt. I prayed more. I was still in doubt. I asked God to at least give me more faith, that's all I wanted. I was still in doubt. I prayed more... how many times do you want me to write it? I did it for a very long time. Capice? One day I looked in the mirror and I realized that I didn't believe there was any God anymore. I didn't get a sign, or a word in my head, or a pastor that miraculously called after God told him so, no writing on the wall. And I'm not talking about a miracle of earthquake and healing etc, I only needed a little sign, like God speaking to me or just comforting me or just giving me a chill or giving me a feeling of support... something. I was standing there and realized I didn't believe, but I STILL DIDN'T GIVE UP! I wanted so badly to still believe, so I prayed my last honest prayer. "God if you do exist. Give me faith, show me a sign, tell me that you exist."

 

Now according to you, we can't ask God for anything. Not even faith, even though faith according to the Bible comes from God, not from us. So I can't, according to the Bible, believe wihtout God giving me faith. So why did God take my faith? According to Romans 9 God hardened Pharaoh's heart and God choses who he gives grace and who he doesn't. So my conclusion is as follows:

Option 1. God exists - but he doesn't want me to believe, for unknown reasons

Option 2. God does not exists - and I just got to the point where my mind realized it.

 

Either way, I have no faith, and if God exists, it is his will that I DON'T BELIEVE IN HIM!

 

Simple. But I know you won't understand, because you remind me way too much of a previous visitor that also couldn't grasp reality.

 

And I already know what your next step will be, you will claim that I was never a True Christian™. And maybe you're right. And the truth is that 30 years of wanting to believe was ignored by God. Praying for hours, fasting, mission work etc was only to show off. But I wanted to be Christian. And I wanted to believe. And I believed that I believed, but obviously the devil fooled me, and God ignored me.

 

Give me one word that can completely convince me that God exists. ... I'm waiting...

[jbthree]

 

I think we have a new Daniel in our company. Or a OSAS theologian. Are you Southern Baptist?

 

[JB] I'm Pauline. Again, please see Rom. 8:29-39 for OSAS. Also could mention Phil. 1:6. After reading these, please share with me why you think a Christian can lose his or her Christianity.

 

2. Regarding how I lost my faith, I'm still trying to explain it to myself, so I'm not sure I will do justice to the reasons. But here goes:

 

I went through hardship and difficulties starting from 1990. Financial or work. The problems and challenges culminated in 96, when all my kids were hurt in a car accident, after three holy ghost filled and fully believing christians stood on the verse that Jesus would be among them, but the accident happened anyway.

 

[JB] Where does scripture say that Christians are exempt from hardship, accident, disease, etc? Look at Job. He lost everthing including members of his family. Talk about hardship. But he was able to say, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him." Nothing shook him from his faith in God.

 

The trouble continued and there were no solutions, but financially it got only harder and more difficult, but now we couldn't even go t church, because we had to take care of a handicapped son. We tried to stay on track, but my doubts increased when I saw that we would never have a normal life again. I prayed. I was in doubt. I prayed more. I was still in doubt. I asked God to at least give me more faith, that's all I wanted.

 

[JB] I'm sorry that you experienced these hardships which other Christians experience. Sometimes it's hard to stand on the promises of God, but he allows us all to go through trials and tribulations. But know that you are not alone in these things. I have some Christian friends who have lost loved ones, while others have children born with disease.

 

I was still in doubt. I prayed more... how many times do you want me to write it? I did it for a very long time. Capice? One day I looked in the mirror and I realized that I didn't believe there was any God anymore. I didn't get a sign, or a word in my head, or a pastor that miraculously called after God told him so, no writing on the wall. And I'm not talking about a miracle of earthquake and healing etc, I only needed a little sign, like God speaking to me or just comforting me or just giving me a chill or giving me a feeling of support... something. I was standing there and realized I didn't believe, but I STILL DIDN'T GIVE UP! I wanted so badly to still believe, so I prayed my last honest prayer. "God if you do exist. Give me faith, show me a sign, tell me that you exist."

 

[JB] I don't think God is in the sign business. Recall that the Jews asked Jesus for signs and he didn't give them any. God wants us, like Job, to trust him inspite of our circumstances.

 

Now according to you, we can't ask God for anything.

 

[JB] I never said that. The Bible clearly says to ask God. But he has three responses: Yes, no, not yet. Sometimes the "not yets" don't happen for years. I know people who have prayed for lost loved ones for 20 years. They never gave up praying and their prayers were finally answered. Don't give up.

 

Not even faith, even though faith according to the Bible comes from God, not from us. So I can't, according to the Bible, believe wihtout God giving me faith. So why did God take my faith?

 

[JB] When you got saved and became a Christian, God gave you the faith. Why do you think God would take back what he freely gave? Don't give up. REad Heb. chapter 11, the "Hall of faith" chapter. Look what happened to many of those Christians. Imagine being "sawn in half."

 

According to Romans 9 God hardened Pharaoh's heart and God choses who he gives grace and who he doesn't. So my conclusion is as follows:

Option 1. God exists - but he doesn't want me to believe, for unknown reasons.

 

[JB] If God is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9), why wouldn't he want you to beleive?

 

Option 2. God does not exists - and I just got to the point where my mind realized it.

 

When you were a Christian, did you believe in evolution?

 

Either way, I have no faith, and if God exists, it is his will that I DON'T BELIEVE IN HIM!

 

[JB] God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:31). That includes you. If God doesn't want you to believe then why would he command you to repent? Repentance is basically a change in what you believe.

 

Simple. But I know you won't understand, because you remind me way too much of a previous visitor that also couldn't grasp reality.

 

[JB] Please don't judge me along with others.

 

And I already know what your next step will be, you will claim that I was never a True Christian. And maybe you're right. And the truth is that 30 years of wanting to believe was ignored by God.

 

[JB] I say don't give up. If you were truly saved, then according to Paul, there is nothing that can ever separate you from the love of God. Please read Rom. 8:29-39 and pray over them as you do.

 

Praying for hours, fasting, mission work etc was only to show off.

 

[JB] So why would you show off? Isn't this evidence that your motives were not pure? Do you suppose that God would honor them?

 

But I wanted to be Christian. And I wanted to believe. And I believed that I believed, but obviously the devil fooled me, and God ignored me.

 

[JB] It sounds to me that your motives were not pure. God will not hear such prayers.

 

Give me one word that can completely convince me that God exists. ... I'm waiting...

 

[JB] Faith:-) "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him." (Job 13:15)

 

Peace

[jbthree]

[JB] Sure there is. This is why I ask how evolution explains the origins of humanity. Adam and Eve obviously didn't evolve according to scritpure, yet science tells us that we evolved from some kind ape-like creature (still missing:-)

 

[JB] Genesis records the creation of cattle, fish, fowl and vegetation. Today we have cattle, fish, fowl and vegetation. Where is the evolution?

 

[JB] No, I'm not talking about the "ooze." Scripture clearly says that God created man from the dust of the earth and the woman from his rib. How does evolution fit in?

 

Your arguments don't hold water. My God can do anything. That means creating Adam and Eve, with their entire evolutionary background in an instant. This concept may be too difficult for you to comprehend.

 

[JB] It's not true that God can do anything (can't lie, steal, sin, etc.) But I know what you mean. But according to scripture, he chose to create Adam and Eve in the manner he did. The Concept you present is more than difficult. It sounds very imaginative. But I will listen if you want to share what you mean.

 

So you’re implying (or I’m inferring from your statement) that the fossil records we are continuing to uncover are what, a government plot, Satan’s plan? Have you studied Evolution and Natural Selection? Have you read “The Origin of Species” by Charles Darwin? (that’s the short name it’s actually longer)

 

[JB] As you know, the fossil record does not support gradual evolution. Many reputable evolutionists recognize this and are rethinking it with such things as punctuated equilibria, which is Gould and Eldredge's belief. Darwin even saw the lack of intermediates in the fossil record.

 

Peace

[chefranden]

[JB] Ezek. 18:24 speaks of apostasy. Someone was never sincerely righteous, but passed for a righteous man. He had the denomination and all the EXTERNAL marks and trimmings of a righteous man; he thought himself one, and others thought him one. But he throws off his profession, leaves his first love, disowns and forsakes the truth and ways of God. The Apostle John spoke of such a person: "If they had been of us, they would, no doubt, have continued with us." (1 John 2:19). Ex-Christians are more likely apostates; once holding to a form of godliness, but denying its power (2 Tim. 3:5).

Peace

 

It does not speak of apostasy except in your mind. According to Ezekiel a man is able save himself through righteousness or lose himself through unrighteousness. NO SAVIOR REQUIRED. The man who sins will die says YHWY not some other man. Matthew's Jesus agrees (Matt. 25:31-46) See this for a fuller commentary.

[white_raven23]

[JB] I don't think God is in the sign business. Recall that the Jews asked Jesus for signs and he didn't give them any. God wants us, like Job, to trust him inspite of our circumstances.

 

Okay....you just negated practically EVERYTHING in the Old Testament! God was givng out 'signs' and miracles like candy......WHERE in the Bible does it explain why Biblegod no longer needed to be in almost direct contact with folks? And don't EVEN mention Jesus! His bogus 'sacrifice' was for the sin......nowhere was it stated that the Father was done with the signs and direct conversations.

[JB] I never said that. The Bible clearly says to ask God. But he has three responses: Yes, no, not yet. Sometimes the "not yets" don't happen for years. I know people who have prayed for lost loved ones for 20 years. They never gave up praying and their prayers were finally answered. Don't give up.

 

Not according to the Bible. John 3:21-22

 

21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.

 

[JB] It sounds to me that your motives were not pure. God will not hear such prayers.

.

Excuse me? 'It sounds to you'? Where do you get off acting as biblegod's motive translator? Who are YOU to dictate what god will and will not hear? And considering most of us here are deeply familiar with Han's backstory......sorry TCH......but I'm going to be "rude" again

 

JB....as far as I'm concerned, may you live to truly know all the sufferings of Job.

[Ouroboros]

Sorry, but I'm done with you. I've talked already with several fundamentalists like you, and I haven't seen anyone of them get it. One day you might find yourself on this website, on our side of the table, and someone will argue with you the same way you're doing right now. Let me know then how you feel about things. Besides that, we're done.

 

-edit-

 

I will take that back, I'm going for one more round to see if you can understand.

 

Let's assume that you're right. Once Saved - Always Saved. That's our postulation.

 

Since I claim that I'm not a christian right now, it means one and only one out of these options:

 

1. I'm a Christian - I was a real christian, and still am a real christian, but I pretend to not to be - I'm basically lying about being ex-christian

- Christian before

- Christian now

- Lying about being apostate

 

2. I'm not a Christian - I am an apostate now, but I was never a true or real christian before either, and I'm lying about have been one, or I was pretending to be one, or I was delusional thinking that I was one but I really wasn't

- Apostate now

- Fake Christian before

either because

a. Lying about my history

b. Intentionally pretended to be Christian

c. Was delusional, thought I was a Christian but wasn't.

 

Okay, this plays out nicely. You either call me a liar or a liar.

 

Most likely, from what you can read, I'm not a very good candidate for being a Christian now, so I guess you would take option 2.

 

In option 2 you have three sub options, and I can't prove that I'm lying about my background or if I only pretended to be a Christian back then. All I can say is that I did belive I was a true Christian.

 

According to your little bible quote, if you ask God for faith, he will give you faith, in the sinners prayer. Right? Which I did at age of 7. At that point God gave me faith or he didn't. If he gave me faith, we see that it can't have been faith in the right Christiantiy, which makes him devious. The other option is that he didn't give me faith, but I thought I had faith. For both those options, I lived a lie without knowing it, that is called a delusion.

 

So all those years, 7 to 37 years of age, I was delusional. I thought I was Christian but I wasn't since I'm not a Christian now. So you're right. I was never a true Christian, that I can see now, I've seen the truth. But, what is scary is that I THOUGHT I WAS CHRISTIAN BACK THEN!!! And I have yet to meet a true Christian that doesn't feel the same thing. All, even you, believe that you are a True Christian. But you could, unfortunately, be living a lie, without knowing it.

 

So explain how God can give me faith to believe a lie? (Unless you stick to the "I'm a liar" explanation.)

 

You can use Bible verses until your face turn blue, but the issue here is that the Bible verses DO NOT MATCH REALITY! (I hope you understand what reality is.)

[jbthree]

 

Not according to the Bible. John 3:21-22

 

21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.

 

[JB] The key is asking according to the will of God. Learning how to pray in the will of God is an ongoing thing for the Christian. Many get discouraged when God doesn't give them what they ask for. Jesus always prayed not for his will to be done, but the Father's. God will give what is prayed for if it is according to his will.

 

Excuse me? 'It sounds to you'? Where do you get off acting as biblegod's motive translator?

 

[JB] Do you think God will answer the prayers of those who are "showing off?" That's what Hansolo said he was doing.

 

Who are YOU to dictate what god will and will not hear?

 

[JB] God does not hear the prayers of sinners (John 9:31). Showing off in prayer does not glorify God and is self-centered. Tell me why you think God should answer such prayers.

 

Peace

 

Peace

[white_raven23]

 

[JB] God does not hear the prayers of sinners (John 9:31). Showing off in prayer does not glorify God and is self-centered. Tell me why you think God should answer such prayers.

 

Peace

 

Peace

 

Well then you have a problem asshole. Because it also says in the bible than no one is free from sin....making EVERYONE a sinner. Romans 3:23

 

And if God doesn't hear sinners, then he cannot hear pleas for forgiveness for said sin because.....it's coming from a SINNER!

 

And there is an additional problem with John 9:31 you jerk. Why not list the verses that come after it?

 

31We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. 32Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."

 

This is Jesus talking specifically of holy prophets and miracle workers! He's using the healing of the blind as proof that such a man comes from god...and THAT guy god will listen to. The rest of us.....EVERYONE, you, me, the guy shingling the roof......God won't listen to a damn one of us "normal" folk according to this. Little surprise the next verse is pissed folks throwing Jesus out.

 

You single out solitary verses as if they are the beginning, middle, and end of what the reader or listener needs to know.....and you christians have the unmitigated gall to cry out "Context!" when anyone goes and reads the text for themselves and expects the words that are actually written to mean just what they say without one of you "adding" to the text and calling it "interpretation".

[Ouroboros]

[JB] The key is asking according to the will of God. Learning how to pray in the will of God is an ongoing thing for the Christian. Many get discouraged when God doesn't give them what they ask for. Jesus always prayed not for his will to be done, but the Father's. God will give what is prayed for if it is according to his will.

 

[JB] Do you think God will answer the prayers of those who are "showing off?" That's what Hansolo said he was doing.

 

[JB] God does not hear the prayers of sinners (John 9:31). Showing off in prayer does not glorify God and is self-centered. Tell me why you think God should answer such prayers.

 

Okay. Try this. We estimated that about 20,000 people prayed for us after the accident. They were churches in Sweden, Germany, Vietnamn, Africa and USA that we know prayed. The president himself sent us a personal letter where he said "we are in his thoughts." (Well, what do you expect from Bill Clinton.)

 

Some of these churches were Calvary Chapel, some World of Faith, some Pentecostal, and the rest I don't even know. We even got prayers from other forums, Christian as it happens.

 

So you're saying that the non-answer is because of they all are sinners? Do you want me to spread the word?

[jbthree]

 

Let's assume that you're right. Once Saved - Always Saved. That's our postulation.

 

[JB] No, it is the Bible's postulation. You won't respond to the verses I have sited (Rom. 8:29-39).

I read through all your options and agree that one of them applies to you. All I know, based on these verses in Romans, and others, is that someone who gets saved was foreknown by God to be conformed to the image of His Son. If you were a Christian, and then lost it, that would contradict these verses. Why would God foreknow you, than lose you?

 

According to your little bible quote, if you ask God for faith, he will give you faith, in the sinners prayer. Right?

 

[JB] I think Eph. 2:8,9 says it all: "For by grace are you saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works; less any man should boast."

 

Which I did at age of 7. At that point God gave me faith or he didn't. If he gave me faith, we see that it can't have been faith in the right Christiantiy,

 

[JB] I can't answer that. It is possible that you were genuinely saved through faith at 7. But somewhere along the line something happened and you no longer have faith. All I know is that we can't blame God for something going wrong. Perhaps at 7 you didn't have a full understanding of the gospel. I think it's unusual for children that young to grasp that they are sinners and are saved by faith. But I know some who were saved very young and are strong Christians today.

 

which makes him devious.

 

[JB] I think if you really believe that, then you don't understand the God of scripture. We are the sinners, not him. We are the ones who need his love and saving grace.

 

The other option is that he didn't give me faith, but I thought I had faith. For both those options, I lived a lie without knowing it, that is called a delusion.

 

[JB] Any delusion would come from ourselves, not God. It's not unusual for people to deceive themselves.

 

So all those years, 7 to 37 years of age, I was delusional. I thought I was Christian but I wasn't since I'm not a Christian now. So you're right. I was never a true Christian, that I can see now, I've seen the truth. But, what is scary is that I THOUGHT I WAS CHRISTIAN BACK THEN!!! And I have yet to meet a true Christian that doesn't feel the same thing. All, even you, believe that you are a True Christian. But you could, unfortunately, be living a lie, without knowing it.

 

[JB] I'm not looking to be argumentative, but be as helpful as I can. From my understanding of scripture, it is possible for someone to think they are saved, and not be (Matt. 13:1-23, and Matt. 7:21-23).

 

So explain how God can give me faith to believe a lie? (Unless you stick to the "I'm a liar" explanation.)

 

[JB] We only delude ourselves. I think you would agree that God does not sin. If he deludes us, then he is a sinner and hypocrit. I don't think you really believe that.

 

Peace