Moral Dilemmas

May 13, 2022

Sorry for starting a new topic but I still have questions. after a break from Christian material, I started to become interested in psychology a bit, but Christianity is still stuck in my head and "dictates" my worldview.

Recently, I got a little bit interested in the subject of morality. As I happened to hear from a friend say, "You are toxic," I delved into this topic. I also found other things, I was looking for answers to common social problems, such as betrayal of a partner or friend. The people's responses shocked me: I was condemned rather than understood (where those presenting the problem clearly regretted what they had done, or had already become depressed as a result). I came to the conclusion that there is a visible pattern here: awareness of a wrong act - guilt and remorse - need for punishment / punishment or need to understand / forgive.
It only proves the biblical concept of sin and morality built in us by God ...

Here are some examples:

1. I confess to having committed and partially still committing an immoral act. I will not tell you in detail, because I know that this is not a place for the fact that there is a place for it in a psychological / psychiatric office. Guilt almost drove me to suicide. I feel guilty for my nature and personality, I can't handle my personal issues and throw my anger out at everyone in my house and friend (and regret it later), but there are also worse things. In addition, I don't want to change it anymore (tried), but I talked to someone and that person told me that it's best to accept your behavior and character and not force it, and the change will appear. I try to isolate myself from people so as not to hurt anyone with words (although I am nice and generous to friends and strangers, not to my family). What if I realized that I am a bad person and anti-social and deserve Hell? All that awaits me is a terrible expectation of judgment according to the Bible - how did you deal with the times in your life where you were morally guilty, consciously did something wrong? What if there is no one to forgive you, and you can't forgive yourself? These questions and disappointment with myself make me consider going back to Christianity, because I think only Jesus can change me, and at the same time I don't want to go back there because it's like going back to a mental prison.

2. I recently read the touching story of a girl who turned away from Christianity, led a sinful life, and she wants to return to her faith too. I also met with great support from Christians in comments for her, without judging or judging her. So how is it that some cannot and do not want to return to this religion, and some feel lost without it, they miss and come back? Does that say anything about the truth of Christianity?

3. What about the fact that psychology makes me feel guilty and it is not worth investing in me (victim mentality, toxicity, resignation, etc.), while Christianity invests in such people, and on the other hand, this religion also has its dark side (at least for me)? However, it sometimes seems to me that the Christian concept is more compassionate and ready to love everyone and to give a chance to everyone, even the worst criminal, while society isolates such people and refuses to help them when there are no changes or results of this help. Here is a comment from one believer:

" am uncomfortable with any philosophy that says, “These people will never change, so don’t invest in them.” I believe that I understand this opinion, as I have had and still know people who are just difficult to love or won’t change some behavior even after many people have tried to talk to them about it, and I do believe that for my own mental health, I have worked to ease some people out of my life, but. As long as God won’t give up on them, I don’t feel I have the right to either. For my own mental health, which is tenuous, I do try to stay away from people who I deem are bad for me, but I don’t stop praying for them. I don’t stop praying for my own heart and the selfishness in me that might be unfair to them. Many people have behaved towards me like I’m not worth investing in because of my chronic Depression, and it’s hurtful, and ultimately doesn’t help them (or me) get any better or more socially acceptable. If anything, I believe that that kind of neglect creates the people who end up becoming deadly to others via gun violence or any violence against others. Obviously there’s a risk in trying to connect with anti-social people, but whenever you deal with human beings, there’s going to be a risk of some kind. If you can’t be kind or connect to certain people, maybe because of water under the bridge, or divorce, or something they did that you can’t forgive (which, I think we all experience one way or another), you can still be compassionate. You can still pray for yourself - first for your own prejudices and hurts and then for that person. I personally cannot afford to turn my back on most people, because I know that there but the grace of God, go I. Every single one of us, if we are sentient and honest with ourselves, know that we can be unloveable, mean, unkind, unreasonable and intractable at times. We would hope that the people in our lives would be forgiving and generous with us, so we should be as well, with others. I’m not saying we should put ourselves in danger from someone violent or frighteningly off-balance. Forgiveness doesn’t always include restoration, because it may be counter-productive or toxic to ourselves, but we can still pray for difficult people. We can still be open to God giving us insights into another’s anti-social behavior, and we should still be obedient to His command to love one another, as unflinchingly as possible, without putting ourselves or loved ones in danger.
Example: my father was a terrible dad in many ways when he was alive. He was narcissistic, mean, violent at times to me and rude to others even though he claimed (like Trump) he was a Christian. He even started a Christian ministry he ran, up until his stroke. I was mistreated by him constantly while growing up, by his toxic words and behavior including physical abuse, towards me. He used to tell me regularly, that I was stupid, or a numskull, or a witch, which I came to believe was true. We were estranged for most of my life with him. I got to the point where I would do almost anything to avoid him like the plague (most of my therapy is still centered around the way he abused me growing up). But then one day, out of the blue, he made a first effort in meeting me halfway - in a rather unorthodox approach, and we mended a few large fences during that sadly short time. Six months later, he had a massive stroke that was devastating. He lived another eight years, but that stroke transformed him. Besides losing his ability to walk, to use 4-5 syllable words (which he used to empower himself and was so proud of) and to hear, he developed Dementia and became kind and loving and gentle - the exact opposite to how he behaved most of his pre-stroke life. I was so glad I had even a little time to heal some things before his stroke. I think I would’ve found taking care of him post-stroke impossible without that seven months beforehand. I’m just saying that I’m glad I got to experience him as a kind person before he passed. He did do the initial outreach towards me (or it never would’ve happened as I did give up on him for awhile), and it did take him over 40 years to work up to changing his behavior, but he did change, and I got to witness it, which was so important as I was the one he really pounded on regularly. I’m certainly sorry he took so long to change his more antisocial behaviors, because many people, not just me, were negatively affected by them, but I got to experience him making an effort to grow and change BEFORE the stroke did the rest. And because of this experience, I’m thankful for being there and not giving up on him. I certainly had to get strong enough to set some boundaries as an adult (who worked under him in the ministry he started), and most of those were life-altering as well as excruciating for me. When I was 17, he once grabbed me, saying he was going to “take me over his knee” (I.e. spank me) and something in me imploded and I whirled out of his grasp, grabbed a very heavy easy chair (good ole Adrenaline) holding it up above my head and screamed at him, “You take one more step towards me and I WILL throw this chair at you!”. The room became instantly silent as if people were holding their breaths, and to my utter astonishment, he backed-up, fish-mouthing at me (which I’d heard of but had never seen), and left the room. I had accomplished what I wanted to accomplish. And I sobbed for hours up in my bedroom, afterwards, because I thought I had destroyed something that would never be the same again, which was true. He never physically abused me again. Ever. But the fact that I had to challenge him and grab the power away from him was almost self-destroying in the process. I had to destroy what he’d built around me, over and over again, through some pretty harsh fights and words. Once, when I caught him screaming at my 3-yr old daughter (at the time) because she’d broken a piece off an old model ship he hadn’t looked at in forever, I calmly told her to run and play (which she did in relief), and then I quietly but intensely said, “You did this to me all the time when I was little and no one protected me from you, but you just screamed at MY daughter. How dare you! She’s not unprotected this time. I’m here to make sure you NEVER treat her the way you treated me. If you so much as raise your voice at her, I will take her far away from you and you won’t see either one of us ever again. Do you understand me?” He said nothing but he just nodded and that was that. He never raised his voice or his hand at her ever again, and I felt so empowered at that moment, and a little sad for the child I had been that no one protected. And now that I’ve dumped all this, I’m signing off because I talk too much and hop down bunny trails too often. Sorry about that. I could’ve said what I wanted to say and just be done, but it’s hard for me to ‘be done’ about my past issues. This is an area I need to work on and change. Sorry, and bye!"

The comment was on this:

The question immediately arose in my head: society says that you cannot help such people (unfortunately I belong to such people), but Jesus came to such people.

4. I read various stories of people who knowingly committed something immoral / wrong, eg boyfriend / husband / wife / girlfriend cheating, prostitution and other things. They were even depressed because of guilt or traumatized. They needed forgiveness from the victims and forgiveness for themselves as well. Others have condemned treason, prostitution, etc. (which seems to prove the concept of sin). The torturers wanted to change. It is very similar to sin and repentance, and such behavior in people seems to me to support only Christianity. Because guilt can prove that God built morality in us, or that he created us in his image and gave us free will. And this concept only appears in the Bible. The need for forgiveness can prove the existence of sin and the need for a Savior and great love. I cannot deal with this problem because the Christian concept fits here. The Hindu concept of karma (Hindu? Or Buddhist?) Also fits. However, Christianity puts this whole mental state together: guilt, remorse, the need for forgiveness and understanding, the need to punish oneself. I chose a fairly popular and probably the most talking about morality and immoral topic - betrayal (you can understand your partner / wife / husband, but also a friend). People confessing their faults, e.g. on Quora, often even received answers from non-Christians such as: you deserve hell for it, you betrayed your partner, in Bible times you would be stoned (about betrayal), etc., - I did not think that so many people ( rather unbelievers) will make a judgment, and this indicates the existence of hell and that everyone deserves hell (since for us a large immoral act means a sentence / punishment, for God our smallest immoral act can condemn us to hell). fear that morality / moral sense may support Christianity or another religion ...

5. If someone loved his wife, there would be no betrayal / second wife / mistress - it is the same in Christianity, if someone is a true Christian, he does not leave, but stays. If anyone left, he wasn't a real Christian. In life, this can be checked, for example, in friendships - so is it a proof of the truth of this religion, if its statement in life is correct? If people commit immoral acts, does this indicate that the Bible is telling the truth, and therefore that there is a God?

6. Does the fact that we are more moral just mean that we have made progress as humans and are spiritually and socially mature, which does not disprove biblical morality because it was adapted to the people of that time? It is like saying to a 3-year-old child: "remember that calling God in vain is a sin and you cannot commit adultery" (example), but such a child does not understand neither the word "challenge", nor the word "adultery", not a word " sin". Therefore, today the Bible seems primitive, but for those people it could be super psychological and scientific, and assuming the development of humanity and the progress of civilization, we should understand that God adapted moral principles to them different (because they are children compared to us, and we grew up on the so much for centuries (I mean all people, the development of humanity) that now God requires more morality from us and does not have to write about it, because it is obvious? It is confusing and sick, but I had such a thought in my head. I think I read apologetic materials, and although it used to be, I am going crazy now. Does my reasoning make sense? Please, someone point out nonsense, if it is nonsense because I am starting to lose my sanity ...

I have highlighted the threads to make it easier to read and as if someone wanted to answer only one of the points. In general, thank you for the fact that I can count on your answers. Sorry for writing so much - let me know if the topics are too long (I'll try to shorten them somehow).

May 14, 2022

It only proves the biblical concept of sin and morality built in us by God ...

No, Aibao.

Awareness of a wrongful act - guilt and remorse are indicators of human empathy.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/empathy

We feel guilt and remorse because we empathise with those we have wronged.

Walter.

May 14, 2022

5. If someone loved his wife, there would be no betrayal / second wife / mistress - it is the same in Christianity, if someone is a true Christian, he does not leave, but stays. If anyone left, he wasn't a real Christian. In life, this can be checked, for example, in friendships - so is it a proof of the truth of this religion, if its statement in life is correct? If people commit immoral acts, does this indicate that the Bible is telling the truth, and therefore that there is a God?

How do you propose to check this in real life, Aibao?

Which friendships are you going to use to see if a person is or isn't a real Christian?

And will you tell them before you do this, while you are doing it, afterwards or not at all?

Your test sounds fine in principle, but can you actually carry it out, using real people as your test subjects?

Do you even want to or does the idea of doing this feel immoral to you?

May 14, 2022

Do you see the contradiction between number 5 and numbers 2, 3 and 4, Aibao?

In 5 you want to check something because you don't know if it's true or not and you want to find evidence.

But you seem to have accepted 2, 3 and 4 as true, without checking them.

How do you know that the touching story of the girl (2) is true if you haven't checked it?

How do you know if the comments from a believer (3) are true if you haven't checked them?

How do you know if the various stories you've read (4) are true if you haven't checked them?

And, most importantly, do you have any way of checking them to see if they are true?

If not, why do you just blindly accept them as true?

Perhaps you can't see it, but I can see that your thinking is being shaped by the words of others that you just accept as true.

Why do you this?

May 14, 2022

On 5/13/2022 at 1:53 PM, Aibao said:

Sorry for starting a new topic but I still have questions. after a break from Christian material, I started to become interested in psychology a bit, but Christianity is still stuck in my head and "dictates" my worldview.

Recently, I got a little bit interested in the subject of morality. As I happened to hear from a friend say, "You are toxic," I delved into this topic. I also found other things, I was looking for answers to common social problems, such as betrayal of a partner or friend. The people's responses shocked me: I was condemned rather than understood (where those presenting the problem clearly regretted what they had done, or had already become depressed as a result). I came to the conclusion that there is a visible pattern here: awareness of a wrong act - guilt and remorse - need for punishment / punishment or need to understand / forgive.
It only proves the biblical concept of sin and morality built in us by God ...

Here are some examples:

1. I confess to having committed and partially still committing an immoral act. I will not tell you in detail, because I know that this is not a place for the fact that there is a place for it in a psychological / psychiatric office. Guilt almost drove me to suicide. I feel guilty for my nature and personality, I can't handle my personal issues and throw my anger out at everyone in my house and friend (and regret it later), but there are also worse things. In addition, I don't want to change it anymore (tried), but I talked to someone and that person told me that it's best to accept your behavior and character and not force it, and the change will appear. I try to isolate myself from people so as not to hurt anyone with words (although I am nice and generous to friends and strangers, not to my family). What if I realized that I am a bad person and anti-social and deserve Hell? All that awaits me is a terrible expectation of judgment according to the Bible - how did you deal with the times in your life where you were morally guilty, consciously did something wrong? What if there is no one to forgive you, and you can't forgive yourself? These questions and disappointment with myself make me consider going back to Christianity, because I think only Jesus can change me, and at the same time I don't want to go back there because it's like going back to a mental prison.

2. I recently read the touching story of a girl who turned away from Christianity, led a sinful life, and she wants to return to her faith too. I also met with great support from Christians in comments for her, without judging or judging her. So how is it that some cannot and do not want to return to this religion, and some feel lost without it, they miss and come back? Does that say anything about the truth of Christianity?

3. What about the fact that psychology makes me feel guilty and it is not worth investing in me (victim mentality, toxicity, resignation, etc.), while Christianity invests in such people, and on the other hand, this religion also has its dark side (at least for me)? However, it sometimes seems to me that the Christian concept is more compassionate and ready to love everyone and to give a chance to everyone, even the worst criminal, while society isolates such people and refuses to help them when there are no changes or results of this help. Here is a comment from one believer:

" am uncomfortable with any philosophy that says, “These people will never change, so don’t invest in them.” I believe that I understand this opinion, as I have had and still know people who are just difficult to love or won’t change some behavior even after many people have tried to talk to them about it, and I do believe that for my own mental health, I have worked to ease some people out of my life, but. As long as God won’t give up on them, I don’t feel I have the right to either. For my own mental health, which is tenuous, I do try to stay away from people who I deem are bad for me, but I don’t stop praying for them. I don’t stop praying for my own heart and the selfishness in me that might be unfair to them. Many people have behaved towards me like I’m not worth investing in because of my chronic Depression, and it’s hurtful, and ultimately doesn’t help them (or me) get any better or more socially acceptable. If anything, I believe that that kind of neglect creates the people who end up becoming deadly to others via gun violence or any violence against others. Obviously there’s a risk in trying to connect with anti-social people, but whenever you deal with human beings, there’s going to be a risk of some kind. If you can’t be kind or connect to certain people, maybe because of water under the bridge, or divorce, or something they did that you can’t forgive (which, I think we all experience one way or another), you can still be compassionate. You can still pray for yourself - first for your own prejudices and hurts and then for that person. I personally cannot afford to turn my back on most people, because I know that there but the grace of God, go I. Every single one of us, if we are sentient and honest with ourselves, know that we can be unloveable, mean, unkind, unreasonable and intractable at times. We would hope that the people in our lives would be forgiving and generous with us, so we should be as well, with others. I’m not saying we should put ourselves in danger from someone violent or frighteningly off-balance. Forgiveness doesn’t always include restoration, because it may be counter-productive or toxic to ourselves, but we can still pray for difficult people. We can still be open to God giving us insights into another’s anti-social behavior, and we should still be obedient to His command to love one another, as unflinchingly as possible, without putting ourselves or loved ones in danger.
Example: my father was a terrible dad in many ways when he was alive. He was narcissistic, mean, violent at times to me and rude to others even though he claimed (like Trump) he was a Christian. He even started a Christian ministry he ran, up until his stroke. I was mistreated by him constantly while growing up, by his toxic words and behavior including physical abuse, towards me. He used to tell me regularly, that I was stupid, or a numskull, or a witch, which I came to believe was true. We were estranged for most of my life with him. I got to the point where I would do almost anything to avoid him like the plague (most of my therapy is still centered around the way he abused me growing up). But then one day, out of the blue, he made a first effort in meeting me halfway - in a rather unorthodox approach, and we mended a few large fences during that sadly short time. Six months later, he had a massive stroke that was devastating. He lived another eight years, but that stroke transformed him. Besides losing his ability to walk, to use 4-5 syllable words (which he used to empower himself and was so proud of) and to hear, he developed Dementia and became kind and loving and gentle - the exact opposite to how he behaved most of his pre-stroke life. I was so glad I had even a little time to heal some things before his stroke. I think I would’ve found taking care of him post-stroke impossible without that seven months beforehand. I’m just saying that I’m glad I got to experience him as a kind person before he passed. He did do the initial outreach towards me (or it never would’ve happened as I did give up on him for awhile), and it did take him over 40 years to work up to changing his behavior, but he did change, and I got to witness it, which was so important as I was the one he really pounded on regularly. I’m certainly sorry he took so long to change his more antisocial behaviors, because many people, not just me, were negatively affected by them, but I got to experience him making an effort to grow and change BEFORE the stroke did the rest. And because of this experience, I’m thankful for being there and not giving up on him. I certainly had to get strong enough to set some boundaries as an adult (who worked under him in the ministry he started), and most of those were life-altering as well as excruciating for me. When I was 17, he once grabbed me, saying he was going to “take me over his knee” (I.e. spank me) and something in me imploded and I whirled out of his grasp, grabbed a very heavy easy chair (good ole Adrenaline) holding it up above my head and screamed at him, “You take one more step towards me and I WILL throw this chair at you!”. The room became instantly silent as if people were holding their breaths, and to my utter astonishment, he backed-up, fish-mouthing at me (which I’d heard of but had never seen), and left the room. I had accomplished what I wanted to accomplish. And I sobbed for hours up in my bedroom, afterwards, because I thought I had destroyed something that would never be the same again, which was true. He never physically abused me again. Ever. But the fact that I had to challenge him and grab the power away from him was almost self-destroying in the process. I had to destroy what he’d built around me, over and over again, through some pretty harsh fights and words. Once, when I caught him screaming at my 3-yr old daughter (at the time) because she’d broken a piece off an old model ship he hadn’t looked at in forever, I calmly told her to run and play (which she did in relief), and then I quietly but intensely said, “You did this to me all the time when I was little and no one protected me from you, but you just screamed at MY daughter. How dare you! She’s not unprotected this time. I’m here to make sure you NEVER treat her the way you treated me. If you so much as raise your voice at her, I will take her far away from you and you won’t see either one of us ever again. Do you understand me?” He said nothing but he just nodded and that was that. He never raised his voice or his hand at her ever again, and I felt so empowered at that moment, and a little sad for the child I had been that no one protected. And now that I’ve dumped all this, I’m signing off because I talk too much and hop down bunny trails too often. Sorry about that. I could’ve said what I wanted to say and just be done, but it’s hard for me to ‘be done’ about my past issues. This is an area I need to work on and change. Sorry, and bye!"

The comment was on this:

The question immediately arose in my head: society says that you cannot help such people (unfortunately I belong to such people), but Jesus came to such people.

4. I read various stories of people who knowingly committed something immoral / wrong, eg boyfriend / husband / wife / girlfriend cheating, prostitution and other things. They were even depressed because of guilt or traumatized. They needed forgiveness from the victims and forgiveness for themselves as well. Others have condemned treason, prostitution, etc. (which seems to prove the concept of sin). The torturers wanted to change. It is very similar to sin and repentance, and such behavior in people seems to me to support only Christianity. Because guilt can prove that God built morality in us, or that he created us in his image and gave us free will. And this concept only appears in the Bible. The need for forgiveness can prove the existence of sin and the need for a Savior and great love. I cannot deal with this problem because the Christian concept fits here. The Hindu concept of karma (Hindu? Or Buddhist?) Also fits. However, Christianity puts this whole mental state together: guilt, remorse, the need for forgiveness and understanding, the need to punish oneself. I chose a fairly popular and probably the most talking about morality and immoral topic - betrayal (you can understand your partner / wife / husband, but also a friend). People confessing their faults, e.g. on Quora, often even received answers from non-Christians such as: you deserve hell for it, you betrayed your partner, in Bible times you would be stoned (about betrayal), etc., - I did not think that so many people ( rather unbelievers) will make a judgment, and this indicates the existence of hell and that everyone deserves hell (since for us a large immoral act means a sentence / punishment, for God our smallest immoral act can condemn us to hell). fear that morality / moral sense may support Christianity or another religion ...

5. If someone loved his wife, there would be no betrayal / second wife / mistress - it is the same in Christianity, if someone is a true Christian, he does not leave, but stays. If anyone left, he wasn't a real Christian. In life, this can be checked, for example, in friendships - so is it a proof of the truth of this religion, if its statement in life is correct? If people commit immoral acts, does this indicate that the Bible is telling the truth, and therefore that there is a God?

6. Does the fact that we are more moral just mean that we have made progress as humans and are spiritually and socially mature, which does not disprove biblical morality because it was adapted to the people of that time? It is like saying to a 3-year-old child: "remember that calling God in vain is a sin and you cannot commit adultery" (example), but such a child does not understand neither the word "challenge", nor the word "adultery", not a word " sin". Therefore, today the Bible seems primitive, but for those people it could be super psychological and scientific, and assuming the development of humanity and the progress of civilization, we should understand that God adapted moral principles to them different (because they are children compared to us, and we grew up on the so much for centuries (I mean all people, the development of humanity) that now God requires more morality from us and does not have to write about it, because it is obvious? It is confusing and sick, but I had such a thought in my head. I think I read apologetic materials, and although it used to be, I am going crazy now. Does my reasoning make sense? Please, someone point out nonsense, if it is nonsense because I am starting to lose my sanity ...

I have highlighted the threads to make it easier to read and as if someone wanted to answer only one of the points. In general, thank you for the fact that I can count on your answers. Sorry for writing so much - let me know if the topics are too long (I'll try to shorten them somehow).

Wow, long posting.

Albao, I hope someday you will realize that the word "sin" and Christianity are simply a joke like Greek mythology. As a non-believer you can make up your own moral system, different from anyone else's. You'll never feel guilty if you follow your own rules. And believe me it's not that hard to follow your own moral system. And you'll realize you're a very good person, all the time, if you follow it. I'll repeat for you my own moral system which I explained to you before. My foundation moral is the negative golden rule 1) "don't do unto others as you would not want them to do unto you." 2) Follow the laws of the land. This is important so that you have a peaceful life without turmoil and can concentrate on your goals in life instead. If you don't like the laws of the land go somewhere else, if you can, where your beliefs are closer to the laws of the land there. 3) Have empathy for others, be considerate, and try to help other people when you can. Be reasonable and charitable. Choose your friends wisely and go out of your way for them if they go out of their way for you. Friendship should not be a oneway street.

4) Concerning sex, don't have sex with a minor or a married person who is still legally bound. All other legal sex one may want is OK as long as its not abusive in some way. 5) never cross the boundaries of your own morals. You would then be a self proclaimed hypocrite. If you cannot follow your own moral code then change the parts of it that you can't follow, But in any event, don't break the laws of the land because that would be stupid. Incarceration or paying big fines ain't no fun, take it from me

As an atheist I know that I am an animal like all other animals. So for my own moral system I am a vegetarian, not for health reasons, but because I do not like to take an animal's life to keep my own life. I don't eat any kind of meat including chicken, fish, shell fish etc. I also generally don't even eat vegetables. Why? because they too are alive and I do not have to take their lives to keep my own life. Then what do I eat? I eat the fruits of the reproductive systems of plants and animals. I eat eggs, because unfertilized eggs can never become a chicken; I dink milk, eat cheese, yogurt, Keefer, and other milk products. because milk was never alive, I can eat all fruits, nuts, and vegetables not related to taking the life of the plant. Fruit that are commonly called vegetables are tomatoes, beans, cucumbers, For other people another good and interesting moral food system, that I don't follow but respect, is that of a Vegan. You might realize that my own moral system is very important to me -- and I really follow it since for a very long time now, I never feel guilty. Of course one can make careless mistakes concerning the law or a moral system. Then just consider that you were less aware than you should have been; it was a simple mistake you could not avoid; you were absent minded, or maybe just a little bit careless or stupid in that regard, your choice.

If you would like to help someone in particular, don't accept beforehand that you cannot. First, try to help them -- but if in time you fail and must give up, you know you tried, This is moral. As you said above, psychology is a very interesting subject, concerning your own psychology mechanics as well as the psychology of others. Concerning your psychology: from your writings it appears to me that you should consider the welfare and well-being of others more than you presently do, and be less worried and self-absorbed IMO. In this way I expect you will become a much happier person with less intellectual conflict.

Bottom line is that everyone should have or create a delineated moral system of some kind that they can follow. I believe this is necessary to be really happy. Of course that moral system can change. If one cannot follow their own moral system then they should change it a bit, or find or create another one that they can follow. If you have doubts about something, follow your doubts to a conclusion, even if it is temporary. You can always change your mind or system. There is never a good reason for anyone to feel guilty IMO. It simply means, concerning their morals, that that person is a hypocrite. But of course this is only one atheist's opinion

May 14, 2022

22 minutes ago, pantheory said:

Wow, long posting.

Albao, I hope someday you will realize that the word "sin" and Christianity are simply a joke like Greek mythology. As a non-believer you can make up your own moral system, different from anyone else's. You'll never feel guilty if you follow your own rules. And believe me it's not that hard to follow your own moral system. And you'll realize you're a very good person, all the time, if you follow it. I'll repeat for you my own moral system which I explained to you before. My foundation moral is the negative golden rule 1) "don't do unto others as you would not want them to do unto you." 2) Follow the laws of the land. This is important so that you have a peaceful life without turmoil and can concentrate on your goals in life instead. If you don't like the laws of the land go somewhere else, if you can, where your beliefs are closer to the laws of the land there. 3) Have empathy for others, be considerate, and try to help other people when you can. Be reasonable and charitable. Choose your friends wisely and go out of your way for them if they go out of their way for you. Friendship should not be a oneway street.

4) Concerning sex, don't have sex with a minor or a married person who is still legally bound. All other legal sex is OK. 5) never cross the boundaries of your own morals. You would then be a self proclaimed hypocrite. If you cannot follow your own moral code then change the parts of it you can't follow, But in any even don't break the laws of the land because that would be stupid. Incarceration ain't no fun, take it from me

As an atheist I know that I am an animal like all other animals. So for my own moral system I am a vegetarian, not for health reasons, but because I do not like to take an animals life to keep my own life. I don't eat any kind of meat including chicken, fish, shell fish etc. I also generally don't even eat vegetables. Why? because they too are alive and I do not have to take their lives to keep my own life. Then what do I eat? I eat the fruits of the reproductive systems of plants and animals. I eat eggs, because unfertilized eggs can never become a chicken; I dink milk, eat cheese, yogurt, Keefer, and other milk products. because milk was never alive, I can eat all fruits, nuts, and vegetables not related to taking the life of the plant. Fruit that are commonly called vegetables are tomatoes, beans, cucumbers, For other people another good and interesting moral food system, that I don't follow but respect, is that of a Vegan. For me to do this as an atheist, you might realize that my own moral system is very important to me -- and I really follow it since for a very long time now, I never feel guilty. Of course one can make careless mistakes concerning the law or a moral system. Then just consider that you were less aware than you should have been; it was a simple mistake you could not avoid; you were absent minded, or maybe just a little bit careless or stupid in that regard, your choice.

If you would like to help someone in particular, don't accept beforehand that you cannot. First, try to help them -- but if in time you fail and must give up, you know you tried, This is moral. As you said above, psychology is a very interesting subject, concerning your own psychology mechanics as well as the psychology of others. Concerning your psychology: from your writings it appears to me that you should consider the welfare and well-being of others more than you presently do, and be less worried and self-absorbed IMO. In this way I expect you will become a much happier person with less intellectual conflict.

Bottom line is that everyone should have or create a delineated moral system of some kind that they can follow. I believe this is necessary to be really happy. Of course that moral system can change. If one cannot follow their own moral system then they need to find or create another one that they can follow. If you have doubts about something, follow your doubts to a conclusion, even if it is temporary. You can always change your mind or system. There is never a good reason for anyone to feel guilty IMO. It simply means, concerning their morals, that a person is a hypocrite. But of course this is only one atheist's opinion

Just wanted to say found this incredibly helpful.

May 14, 2022

5 hours ago, Crystalclear said:

Just wanted to say found this incredibly helpful.

Thanks Crytalclear, As you probably know, that's the goal of many or most who post here -- to be helpful to others

May 15, 2022

@Aibao, thanks for starting this discussion. Perhaps a way forward may be to look at Jesus more closely in the gospels. Because

studying him and his teachings and looking at the examples of morality in at least one of them in a step by step way could be an easier way forward to help your thoughts.

We all have our own individual responses, so maybe reflecting on his ethics and approach to others would help. @Pantheory 's explanation of how morals relate to their own life is helping me think about this too.

Also a book I've just been loaned is called Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes which is making me realise more that I made mistakes in my approach to reading the Bible and understanding what kind of literature it is. In it, the author mentions how parables were metaphorical teachings, stories that contained divine truths which were to be meditated on and how in Western culture we may miss things tending towards a more logical approach. There may be other books on this, I'm researching.

It does seem to sometimes make a difference which translation is read too as to how his teachings come across because some have an anti semitic perspective..

Ive also read I think that instead of trying to accumulate more and more understanding, without doing the things we know to be good, we can get in a muddle.

You may have done all this research already and what I've written may be stating things too obvious, so I apologise if you have.

Im visiting here also as someone wanting to find a way forward.

.

May 15, 2022

Im unable to edit my post, it could have been expressed differently.

May 15, 2022

1 hour ago, Crystalclear said:

Im unable to edit my post, it could have been expressed differently.

After a couple of dozen posts, ask a moderator at that time how to edit your postings. For Newbies, they must show some successful postings before they can edit them.

May 16, 2022

6 hours ago, pantheory said:

After a couple of dozen posts, ask a moderator at that time how to edit your postings. For Newbies, they must show some successful postings before they can edit them.

Thanks @pantheory.

May 18, 2022

On 5/14/2022 at 5:44 PM, walterpthefirst said:

5. If someone loved his wife, there would be no betrayal / second wife / mistress - it is the same in Christianity, if someone is a true Christian, he does not leave, but stays. If anyone left, he wasn't a real Christian. In life, this can be checked, for example, in friendships - so is it a proof of the truth of this religion, if its statement in life is correct? If people commit immoral acts, does this indicate that the Bible is telling the truth, and therefore that there is a God?

How do you propose to check this in real life, Aibao?

Which friendships are you going to use to see if a person is or isn't a real Christian?

And will you tell them before you do this, while you are doing it, afterwards or not at all?

Your test sounds fine in principle, but can you actually carry it out, using real people as your test subjects?

Do you even want to or does the idea of doing this feel immoral to you?

Actually, it is not difficult to check it: it is enough for a few people (even here, e.g. you, me, others) to think about whether we had trusted friends to whom we entrusted our secrets, we knew them, and they gave us names very well. great times and bad times, etc. And then suddenly or for all sorts of reasons, this friendship broke. These people are gone - so they may not be true friends. There is a saying in Poland (I think this saying is not Polish, but rather global): if he loves - he will come back or: the one who loves does not go away. Something like that - I hope I wrote it clearly, if not, let me know, because I don't know if I put it correctly in words.

May 18, 2022

On 5/14/2022 at 5:55 PM, walterpthefirst said:

Do you see the contradiction between number 5 and numbers 2, 3 and 4, Aibao?

In 5 you want to check something because you don't know if it's true or not and you want to find evidence.

But you seem to have accepted 2, 3 and 4 as true, without checking them.

How do you know that the touching story of the girl (2) is true if you haven't checked it?

How do you know if the comments from a believer (3) are true if you haven't checked them?

How do you know if the various stories you've read (4) are true if you haven't checked them?

And, most importantly, do you have any way of checking them to see if they are true?

If not, why do you just blindly accept them as true?

Perhaps you can't see it, but I can see that your thinking is being shaped by the words of others that you just accept as true.

Why do you this?

How do I know that e.g. a girl's story is true? Because it was a Christian forum (forum? Or discussion? I don't know what the name was, but it was on Reddit or Reedit, somehow), where questions from people interested only in Christianity were answered (this was not a place for atheists, and all comments came from Christians). Plus, I've heard similar stories in the church from people I knew before they became believers. My point is that (even if it is not true, although I do not think that someone wrote such things for a joke, it was clear from the text that the girl was desperate with her life and hoped for forgiveness - let's assume it was true - and here I mean what to do with such stories? Are people drawn to Christianity by the ease of forgiving mistakes in life <sins>, is it just emotions and a desire to be a better person and seek hope in religion or is there any real power hidden behind it? the main point is to find out. It's like asking someone who claims to have seen a UFO and their life has changed beyond recognition, but you know e.g. that there is no UFO, but that person also "knows", but this person "knows" that it is - why?).

May 18, 2022

On 5/14/2022 at 6:56 PM, pantheory said:

Wow, long posting.

Albao, I hope someday you will realize that the word "sin" and Christianity are simply a joke like Greek mythology. As a non-believer you can make up your own moral system, different from anyone else's. You'll never feel guilty if you follow your own rules. And believe me it's not that hard to follow your own moral system. And you'll realize you're a very good person, all the time, if you follow it. I'll repeat for you my own moral system which I explained to you before. My foundation moral is the negative golden rule 1) "don't do unto others as you would not want them to do unto you." 2) Follow the laws of the land. This is important so that you have a peaceful life without turmoil and can concentrate on your goals in life instead. If you don't like the laws of the land go somewhere else, if you can, where your beliefs are closer to the laws of the land there. 3) Have empathy for others, be considerate, and try to help other people when you can. Be reasonable and charitable. Choose your friends wisely and go out of your way for them if they go out of their way for you. Friendship should not be a oneway street.

4) Concerning sex, don't have sex with a minor or a married person who is still legally bound. All other legal sex one may want is OK as long as its not abusive in some way. 5) never cross the boundaries of your own morals. You would then be a self proclaimed hypocrite. If you cannot follow your own moral code then change the parts of it that you can't follow, But in any event, don't break the laws of the land because that would be stupid. Incarceration or paying big fines ain't no fun, take it from me

As an atheist I know that I am an animal like all other animals. So for my own moral system I am a vegetarian, not for health reasons, but because I do not like to take an animal's life to keep my own life. I don't eat any kind of meat including chicken, fish, shell fish etc. I also generally don't even eat vegetables. Why? because they too are alive and I do not have to take their lives to keep my own life. Then what do I eat? I eat the fruits of the reproductive systems of plants and animals. I eat eggs, because unfertilized eggs can never become a chicken; I dink milk, eat cheese, yogurt, Keefer, and other milk products. because milk was never alive, I can eat all fruits, nuts, and vegetables not related to taking the life of the plant. Fruit that are commonly called vegetables are tomatoes, beans, cucumbers, For other people another good and interesting moral food system, that I don't follow but respect, is that of a Vegan. You might realize that my own moral system is very important to me -- and I really follow it since for a very long time now, I never feel guilty. Of course one can make careless mistakes concerning the law or a moral system. Then just consider that you were less aware than you should have been; it was a simple mistake you could not avoid; you were absent minded, or maybe just a little bit careless or stupid in that regard, your choice.

If you would like to help someone in particular, don't accept beforehand that you cannot. First, try to help them -- but if in time you fail and must give up, you know you tried, This is moral. As you said above, psychology is a very interesting subject, concerning your own psychology mechanics as well as the psychology of others. Concerning your psychology: from your writings it appears to me that you should consider the welfare and well-being of others more than you presently do, and be less worried and self-absorbed IMO. In this way I expect you will become a much happier person with less intellectual conflict.

Bottom line is that everyone should have or create a delineated moral system of some kind that they can follow. I believe this is necessary to be really happy. Of course that moral system can change. If one cannot follow their own moral system then they should change it a bit, or find or create another one that they can follow. If you have doubts about something, follow your doubts to a conclusion, even if it is temporary. You can always change your mind or system. There is never a good reason for anyone to feel guilty IMO. It simply means, concerning their morals, that that person is a hypocrite. But of course this is only one atheist's opinion

Thank you for your comprehensive answer - I really appreciate it. Exactly, even if "sin" is made up, it still coincides with our understanding of guilt, and that's the problem, because it just makes Christianity make some sense.

The problem is that when I focus on others, I destroy myself. I sacrifice myself rarely and for selected people, for fear of being manipulated by others and abusing my kindness, which was the case when I was a believer. Or maybe I'm just oversensitive and I shouldn't feel like someone is taking advantage of me, because it was a service to God - but in the end this service exhausted me, for me it was too much and I sometimes see through the prism of service and this religion of people, sometimes I have the impression that yes, I should sacrifice myself for others - then I feel scared and want to run away or hide somewhere so that people cannot find me anywhere. Maybe it's my problem, not Christianity, I don't know, I'm so confused ....

May 19, 2022

4 hours ago, Aibao said:

Thank you for your comprehensive answer - I really appreciate it. Exactly, even if "sin" is made up, it still coincides with our understanding of guilt, and that's the problem, because it just makes Christianity make some sense.

The problem is that when I focus on others, I destroy myself. I sacrifice myself rarely and for selected people, for fear of being manipulated by others and abusing my kindness, which was the case when I was a believer. Or maybe I'm just oversensitive and I shouldn't feel like someone is taking advantage of me, because it was a service to God - but in the end this service exhausted me, for me it was too much and I sometimes see through the prism of service and this religion of people, sometimes I have the impression that yes, I should sacrifice myself for others - then I feel scared and want to run away or hide somewhere so that people cannot find me anywhere. Maybe it's my problem, not Christianity, I don't know, I'm so confused ....

Anyone might be confused if they haven't seriously studied biology, geology, historical geology, archeology, anthropology, astronomy etc. There is mountain of evidence the size of mount Everest explaining why the Bible and all religions are equal to Greek mythology.

Frankly I "know" the Bible is an extremely stupid book, and I'll give you the obvious examples of my use of the word stupid. Take the book of Genesis and the story of Noah's Ark for example from the old testament. If you have studied science at the Junior high school level anyone with wit can understand that there is a mountain of scientific evidence that can prove these stories as being fairy tales for young children. If you read the book of Revelation from the new testament It reads just like what it is, a ridiculous 2,000 year old story also written for the weak minded, for the people 2,000 years ago, before all the evidence of modern science. Not only are all of these stupid stories, they are crazy stories in the light of modern science.

Although the stupidity of the above books does not prove that a God of some kind does not exist, science can certainly prove that all religions that believe in any of these books leave no doubt as to their stupidity. Bottom line is that you would never be confused again about the stupidity of these Bible books if you knew the sciences above like I do.

I'm so certain that all religions are pure BS that I' bet my immortal soul against a six pack of beer decades ago. Neither devil nor angel have ever come to collect my soul, and I knew I'd never see my beer either.

May 19, 2022

8 hours ago, Aibao said:

How do I know that e.g. a girl's story is true? Because it was a Christian forum (forum? Or discussion? I don't know what the name was, but it was on Reddit or Reedit, somehow), where questions from people interested only in Christianity were answered (this was not a place for atheists, and all comments came from Christians). Plus, I've heard similar stories in the church from people I knew before they became believers. My point is that (even if it is not true, although I do not think that someone wrote such things for a joke, it was clear from the text that the girl was desperate with her life and hoped for forgiveness - let's assume it was true - and here I mean what to do with such stories? Are people drawn to Christianity by the ease of forgiving mistakes in life <sins>, is it just emotions and a desire to be a better person and seek hope in religion or is there any real power hidden behind it? the main point is to find out. It's like asking someone who claims to have seen a UFO and their life has changed beyond recognition, but you know e.g. that there is no UFO, but that person also "knows", but this person "knows" that it is - why?).

Aibao,

From the answers you've given to me over the weeks it is clear that deep down you want to find proof for god in everything you see and everywhere you look.

This need is preventing you from being properly sceptical about god.

You will always see him if you want to - not because he is actually there but because your need causes you to see him.

So, there's no point in me asking you further questions unless you can answer them without putting your need for god first.

If you can't separate your emotional need for god from every question you look at then you will always end up finding a way to see him.

Please go away and think very carefully about this.

If you can't stop wanting to see god everywhere and in everything then there's nothing more I can say to you.

But if you are really serious about finding out the facts and the evidence, then please reply to me.

Thank you.

Walter.

May 20, 2022

19.05.2022 o 05:56 panteoria powiedziała:

Każdy może być zdezorientowany, jeśli nie studiował poważnie biologii, geologii, geologii historycznej, archeologii, antropologii, astronomii itp. Stosują góra równy Mount Everestu, wyjaśniający, dlaczego Biblia i wszystkie religie są równe mitologii greckiej.

Szczerze mówiąc, „wiem”, że Biblia jest ścieszem głupią książką i pod numerami mówię o moim słowach głupia. Weźmy na przykład Księgę Rodzaju i umieść Arki Noego ze starego testu. Jeśli studiowałeś nauki ścisłe na poziomie gimnazjum, każdy z dowcipem może zrozumieć, że istnieją strony nauki, które mogą udowodnić, że te historie są bajkami dla małych dzieci. Jeśli czytasz Księgę Objawienia z nowego testamentu, czyta się nawierzchnię tak, jak jest, ma zabawną historię sprzed 2000 lat, naznaczony również dla słabych umysłów 2000 lat temu, dla ludzi, przed możliwymi sposobami współczesnego. Wszystkie te głupie historie, by nie tylko szalone historie w świetle współczesnej nauki.

Przyjmuj materiały, które uwidaczniają się na dowodzie, że istnieje użytkownik, że istnieje możliwość sprawdzenia, czy wszystkie religie, które wierzą w którekolwiek z tych książek, nie pozostawiają wątpliwości co do swojej głupoty. Konkluzja jest taka, że nigdy więcej nie zdezorientowane głupotą tych ksiąg biblijnych, ile masz znalizji nauki tak jak ja.

Jestem tak, że kilka że wszystkie religie czystym BS, czystym dziesiąt lat temu postawiłem swoją unieśmiertelną na sześciopak piwa. Ani diabeł, ani anioł nigdy nie przybyli, dzięki swojej piwie, duszę, i wiedzą, że nigdy nie zobaczę swojego.

Wow, Thank you for your answer - you just brought up a very interesting topic: evidence. Could you please provide any evidence you have examined that has been found to undermine Christianity? How did you lose your faith? And how about the fact that apologists have answered every Scriptural proof and contradiction? I'm just getting over it - the apologetics that keeps my fear and my "what if?"

May 20, 2022

On 19.05.2022 at 10:26, walterpthefirst said:

Aibao,

Z odpowiedzi, których mi udzielałeś przez tygodnie, jasno wynika, że w głębi duszy chcesz znaleźć dowód na istnienie boga we wszystkim, co widzisz i gdziekolwiek spojrzysz.

Ta potrzeba powstrzymuje cię przed odpowiednim sceptycyzmem wobec Boga.

Zawsze będziesz go widział, jeśli chcesz - nie dlatego, że faktycznie tam jest, ale dlatego, że twoja potrzeba powoduje, że go widzisz.

Więc nie ma sensu zadawać ci dalszych pytań, chyba że możesz na nie odpowiedzieć bez stawiania na pierwszym miejscu swojej potrzeby boga.

Jeśli nie możesz oddzielić swojej emocjonalnej potrzeby boga od każdego pytania, na które patrzysz, zawsze znajdziesz sposób, aby go zobaczyć.

Proszę odejdź i zastanów się nad tym bardzo dokładnie.

Jeśli nie możesz przestać chcieć widzieć boga wszędzie i we wszystkim, to nic więcej nie mogę ci powiedzieć.

Ale jeśli naprawdę poważnie myślisz o poznaniu faktów i dowodów, proszę o odpowiedź.

Dziękuję Ci.

Waltera.

Deep down in my soul, I don't want it, but I force myself to do it, because I'm afraid of alleged hell and condemnation. I am thinking of knowing facts and evidence, but when I come across evidence, such as a biblical contradiction, that points to the fallibility of the Bible, it turns out that it is explained by apologists, so the evidence becomes rejected and invalid. That is why I keep looking further and further, but I only get lost and I cannot get out either towards atheism or towards Christianity. I am at a crossroads where it says "I don't know"

May 20, 2022

How can I read arguments against Christianity, since I find blogs that accuse atheists, e.g. that they lie, did not leave the faith for rational and intellectual reasons, but for emotional reasons or because of sin ... is J. Loft's blog trustworthy or nonetheless are the critics right? Reading the comments, even a Christian critic finally apologized ...:

https://debunkingloftus.blogspot.com/2010/04/loftus-logic-part-1.html
https://debunkingloftus.blogspot.com/2010/04/loftus-logic-part-2.html

https://debunkingloftus.blogspot.com/2009/12/validity-of-personal-testimony.html
https://debunkingloftus.blogspot.com/2010/03/perpetual-delusion-why-loftus-fails.html

May 20, 2022

I read some of B. Ehrman's articles (and watched some of the videos) and then found Richard Carrier. These 2 educated people have completely different views. So even among atheists / agnostics there is division and no one knows what is true, as in a thousand Christian sects. This baffled me a lot, because I don't know if Jesus was a mythical or historical figure - which way to turn here? In addition, B.Ehrman on his blog (the blog is paid, but I saw the article, even though I'm not a member so I hope everyone can see this article) criticizes R. Carrier's view of Jesus. On the other hand, R. Carrier (someone else with a similar opinion reportedly published a book against the views of B. Ehrman, someone for the argument of the myth of Jesus) criticizes the views of B. Ehrman. How to check who is right and who is closer to the truth - B. Ehrman or R. Carrier?

link to R. Carrier's criticism on B. Ehrman's blog:

https://ehrmanblog.org/fuller-reply-to-richard-carrier/

May 20, 2022

Hello Aibao,

You are stuck in the devonversion process and I know this is not a fun place to be. I haven’t had much to say about your concerns but maybe I can help in some small way.

51 minutes ago, Aibao said:

So even among atheists / agnostics there is division and no one knows what is true, as in a thousand Christian sects. This baffled me a lot, because I don't know if Jesus was a mythical or historical figure - which way to turn here?

Guess what? I don’t know if Jesus was a mythical or historical figure either! But it doesn’t matter: I’m satisfied that the god of the Bible doesn’t exist and that Jesus didn’t rise from the dead. And on those points you will find Ehrman and Carrier in agreement. To what extent Jesus was a real figure is fascinating and will surely never be resolved, but it has nothing to do with whether Christianity is true.

As you have seen, Christianity is a complex belief system with lots of contradictions and disagreements among its followers. These differences, which include such basics as what it takes for a person to be “saved”, certainly point to Christianity as being a man-made belief system rather than a revelation from the creator of the universe. The differences undermine the whole claim.

For atheists however - including Ehrman, Carrier and myself - we don’t have a complex belief system that has to be consistent and without contradiction. Because atheism is nothing more than a belief that the god of the Bible - or any other god - does not exist. Beyond that, we can and do disagree about all kinds of things: Do we have free will? Is morality objective or subjective? Did the universe have a beginning? How did life on earth develop? There are different answers to these questions that do not conflict with disbelief in gods.

If you make it through the deconversion process you will find that your mind has become unburdened without the complex theology of Christianity and theism in general. Especially once you start questioning, believing in Christianity is like being a juggler who has to constantly work to keep all those balls in the air. At a certain point, deconversion means letting them all fall to the floor and walking away to find your own meaning in life. It feels good and I hope you can get there in time!

May 20, 2022

2 hours ago, Aibao said:

Deep down in my soul, I don't want it, but I force myself to do it, because I'm afraid of alleged hell and condemnation. I am thinking of knowing facts and evidence, but when I come across evidence, such as a biblical contradiction, that points to the fallibility of the Bible, it turns out that it is explained by apologists, so the evidence becomes rejected and invalid. That is why I keep looking further and further, but I only get lost and I cannot get out either towards atheism or towards Christianity. I am at a crossroads where it says "I don't know"

'I don't know' is an honest answer, Aibao. Thank you.

So, how about this?

I think I can present you with an argument that totally destroys Christianity.

If you accept the logic of the argument you should see that Christianity cannot be true.

Would you like me to present this argument to you?

Thank you.

Walter.

May 20, 2022

On 5/20/2022 at 12:36 PM, Aibao said:

Wow, Thank you for your answer - you just brought up a very interesting topic: evidence. Could you please provide any evidence you have examined that has been found to undermine Christianity? How did you lose your faith? And how about the fact that apologists have answered every Scriptural proof and contradiction? I'm just getting over it - the apologetics that keeps my fear and my "what if?"

Sorry Albao, I was a little harsh concerning my criticism of Christianity and other religions in my last posting.

Regarding evidence against the Christian Bible and other Abrahamic religions:

The evidence is clear and certain against at least some parts of the Bible. If some of the Bible is certainly false then how can we know if any of the Bible is true? Most of the Bible contains books where there is no supportable historical evidence to support it. But some of it can be totally contradicted by science, in these cases the Bible reads no better than Greek Mythology. The examples that I gave in my last posting started with the Book of Genesis. The statement that I made before was that there is more than a mountain of evidence against most of its content. I believe that anyone with a Junior high school education, the 8th grade, would know enough about science to laugh at the stupidity of the text of Genesis.

I will not bring up the entire stupidity and evidence against the different sections of Genesis since the book is no more than a joke, each section as ridiculous as all the other sections. I will just use Genesis 1 here as my example of stupidity, not that you asked for any more.

Gen.1

[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

This is saying that the Earth was the center of the universe then God created the Sun. Beginning astronomy students everywhere would laugh at these statements, as a story for little children only.

[6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Here the text is saying that God separated the form of the water on Earth from the sky and universe above it in one day. For the same reasons children studying astronomy would laugh at this as a story for little children that would never learn any truths. Even if the Bible said a billion years it would be a fairy tale.

[9] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

[10] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
[11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
[12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: God saw that it was good.
[13] And the evening and the morning were the third day.

And on the third day God created grass and seeded plants. In Botany and historical Geology it actually took more than 3 billion years for this plant biology to be observed in our biological history, preserved by fossils. Again, there is a mountain of evidence against the Bible concerning these passages.

[14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
[15] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
[17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
[18] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
[19] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

On the next day God created the sun, moon, stars, and the universe after he created the Earth, This is another story school kids today would laugh at if they knew anything about astronomy.

[20] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
[21] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[22] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
[23] And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

On the next day he created fish, animals, birds and bats, etc. All of the evidences of sciences such as biology, zoology, geology, historical geology have evidence that this life took billions of year to happen. The first life on Earth, according to evidence started 3.7 billion year ago.

[24] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
[25] And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

The first large land animals appeared on Earth only about 325 million years ago based upon our fossil records. Saying that all large animal life on Earth was created in just one day is not even a good joke that an educated child could believe.

[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
[29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
[30] And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God created man in one day, the plants and animals were his dominion. There is also a mountain of evidence against man being created in his present form, in all of the above mentioned sciences, Just these beginning passages are proof that this book of the Bible was a story for people thousands of years ago to believe since there was no evidence to the contrary. Although there have been many books written concerning how stupid many books of the Bible are, and can certainly be proven wrong, the best example of easily falsifiable stories and mountains of contrary evidence are the Book of Genesis and the Story of Noah's Ark in the old testament, and the book of Revelation in the new testament. These are all stories that have a mountain of evidence against them.

And on the seventh day God rested. If it were me, all that creation would be followed by the drinking of the bottles of vodka and tequila I created. amongst other things.

Of course this doesn't prove that none of the Bible is true, but it does prove that some of the Bible and religions that believe those parts, can be proven wrong. This doesn't prove that a God of some kind doesn't exist either, but one cannot prove the non-existence of invisible pink unicorns either.

Although a harsh criticism, in time, if you study science, I think you will also realize how ridiculous the Bible really is.

with best wishes, Pantheory

May 23, 2022

On 21.05.2022 at 00:42, pantheory said:

Przepraszam Albao, byłem trochę surowy w odniesieniu do mojej krytyki chrześcijaństwa i innych religii w moim ostatnim poście.

Odnośnie dowodów przeciwko Biblii Chrześcijańskiej i innym religiom Abrahamowym:

Dowody są jasne i pewne przeciwko przynajmniej niektórym częściom Biblii. Jeśli część Biblii jest z pewnością fałszywa, to skąd możemy wiedzieć, czy którakolwiek z Biblii jest prawdziwa? Większość Biblii zawiera księgi, w których nie ma na to żadnych dowodów historycznych. Ale niektóre z nich mogą być całkowicie zaprzeczone przez naukę, w tych przypadkach Biblia nie czyta się lepiej niż mitologia grecka. Przykłady, które podałem w moim ostatnim poście, zaczęły się od Księgi Rodzaju. Oświadczenie, które złożyłem wcześniej, było takie, że istnieje więcej niż góra dowodów przeciwko większości jego treści. Wierzę, że każdy, kto ma wykształcenie gimnazjalne, w ósmej klasie, wiedziałby wystarczająco dużo o nauce, by śmiać się z głupoty tekstu Księgi Rodzaju.

Nie będę przedstawiał całej głupoty i dowodów przeciwko różnym rozdziałom Księgi Rodzaju, ponieważ książka jest tylko żartem, a każdy rozdział jest tak samo niedorzeczny jak wszystkie inne. Po prostu użyję tutaj Genesis 1 jako przykładu głupoty, a nie tego, że prosiłeś o więcej.

Gen.1

[ 1 ] Na początku Bóg stworzył niebo i ziemię.
[ 2 ] A ziemia była bezkształtna i pusta; a ciemność była na obliczu głębi. A Duch Boży poruszał się po wodach.

[ 3 ] I rzekł Bóg: Niech stanie się światłość, i stało się światło.
[ 4 ] I widział Bóg światło, że było dobre, i Bóg oddzielił światłość od ciemności.
[ 5 ] I Bóg nazwał światłość dniem, a ciemność nazwał nocą. A wieczór i poranek były pierwszym dniem.

To znaczy, że Ziemia była centrum wszechświata wtedy Bóg stworzył Słońce. Początkujący studenci astronomii na całym świecie śmialiby się z tych stwierdzeń, jako opowieści tylko dla małych dzieci.

[ 6 ] I rzekł Bóg: Niech stanie się firmament pośród wód i niech oddzieli wody od wód.
[ 7 ] I uczynił Bóg firmament i oddzielił wody pod sklepieniem od wód nad sklepieniem. I tak się stało.
[ 8 ] I Bóg nazwał firmament Niebem. A wieczorem i rankiem był dzień drugi.

Tutaj tekst mówi, że Bóg w ciągu jednego dnia oddzielił formę wody na Ziemi od nieba i wszechświata nad nim. Z tych samych powodów dzieci studiujące astronomię śmiałyby się z tego jako z bajki dla małych dzieci, które nigdy nie nauczą się żadnej prawdy. Nawet jeśli Biblia mówi, że miliard lat to byłaby bajka.

[ 9 ] I rzekł Bóg: Niech wody pod niebem zbiorą się w jedno miejsce, a niech się ukaże suchy ląd, i tak się stało.

[ 10 ] I Bóg nazwał suchy ląd Ziemią; a zgromadzenie się wód nazwano morzami, a Bóg widział, że to było dobre.
[ 11 ] I rzekł Bóg: Niech ziemia wyda trawę, ziele wydające nasienie i drzewo owocowe wydające owoc według swego rodzaju, którego nasienie jest w sobie, na ziemi; i tak się stało.
[ 12 ] I ziemia wydała trawę i zioła wydające nasienie według jego rodzaju, i drzewo wydające owoc, którego nasienie było w sobie według jego rodzaju: Bóg widział, że to było dobre.
[ 13 ] A wieczorem i rankiem był dzień trzeci.

A trzeciego dnia Bóg stworzył trawę i nasiona roślin. W botanice i geologii historycznej minęło ponad 3 miliardy lat, zanim ta biologia roślin została zaobserwowana w naszej historii biologicznej, zachowana przez skamieniałości. Ponownie, istnieje góra dowodów przeciwko Biblii dotyczących tych fragmentów.

[ 14 ] I rzekł Bóg: Niech na sklepieniu nieba zaczną świecić światła oddzielające dzień od nocy; i niech służą jako znaki, pory roku, dni i lata;
[ 15 ] I niech będą światłami na firmamencie nieba, aby świeciły na ziemi. I tak się stało.
[ 16 ] I Bóg stworzył dwa wielkie światła; większe światło, aby rządziło dniem, a mniejsze światło, aby rządziło nocą: stworzył także gwiazdy.
[ 17 ] I umieścił je Bóg na firmamencie nieba, aby świeciły na ziemi,
[ 18 ] By rządzili dniem i nocą i oddzielali światłość od ciemności. I widział Bóg, że to było dobre .
[ 19] A wieczorem i rankiem był dzień czwarty.

Następnego dnia Bóg stworzył słońce, księżyc, gwiazdy i wszechświat po tym, jak stworzył Ziemię.

[ 20 ] I rzekł Bóg: Niech wody obfitują w żywe stworzenie i ptactwo, które może latać nad ziemią na otwartym firmamencie nieba.
[ 21 ] I stworzył Bóg wielkie wieloryby i wszelkie pływające istoty żywe, które obficie wydały wody, według ich rodzaju, i wszelkie ptactwo skrzydlate według jego rodzaju. I widział Bóg, że to było dobre.
[ 22 ] I błogosławił im Bóg, mówiąc: Rozradzajcie się i rozmnażajcie się i napełniajcie wody w morzach, a ptactwo niech się rozmnaża na ziemi.
[ 23 ] A wieczorem i rankiem był dzień piąty.

Następnego dnia stworzył ryby, zwierzęta, ptaki i nietoperze itd. Wszystkie dowody naukowe, takie jak biologia, zoologia, geologia, geologia historyczna, świadczą o tym, że to życie zajęło miliardy lat. Pierwsze życie na Ziemi, według dowodów, rozpoczęło się 3,7 miliarda lat temu.

[ 24 ] I rzekł Bóg: Niech ziemia wyda żywe stworzenie według jego rodzaju, bydło i płaz, i dzikie zwierzę według jego rodzaju. I tak się stało.
[ 25 ] I Bóg uczynił zwierzęta ziemi według swego rodzaju, bydło według swego rodzaju i wszystko, co pełza po ziemi według swego rodzaju, i widział Bóg, że to było dobre.

Pierwsze duże zwierzęta lądowe pojawiły się na Ziemi zaledwie około 325 milionów lat temu, co wynika z naszych zapisów kopalnych. Mówienie, że całe wielkie życie zwierzęce na Ziemi powstało w jeden dzień, nie jest nawet dobrym żartem, w który wykształcone dziecko mogłoby uwierzyć.

[ 26 ] I rzekł Bóg: Uczyńmy człowieka na nasz obraz, na nasze podobieństwo i niech panują nad rybami morskimi, nad ptactwem powietrznym, nad bydłem i nad całą ziemią, i nad każdą rzeczą pełzającą po ziemi.
[ 27 ] Stworzył więc Bóg człowieka na swój obraz, na obraz Boży go stworzył; stworzył mężczyznę i kobietę.
[ 28 ] I Bóg im błogosławił, a Bóg rzekł do nich: Rozradzajcie się i rozmnażajcie, i napełniajcie ziemię, i podporządkujcie ją, i panujcie nad rybami morskimi i nad ptactwem powietrznym, i nad wszelkim żywa istota, która porusza się po ziemi.
[ 29] I rzekł Bóg: Oto dałem wam wszelkie ziele rodzące nasienie, które jest na powierzchni całej ziemi, i każde drzewo, na którym jest owoc drzewa wydającego nasienie; wam to będzie na pożywienie.
[ 30 ] Każdemu zwierzęciu na ziemi i wszelkiemu ptastwu powietrznemu i wszelkiemu zwierzęciu pełzającemu po ziemi, w którym jest życie, dałem na pokarm wszelkie zielone ziele i tak się stało.
[ 31 ] A Bóg widział wszystko, co uczynił, a oto było bardzo dobre. A wieczorem i rankiem był dzień szósty.

Bóg stworzył człowieka w jeden dzień, jego panowaniem były rośliny i zwierzęta. We wszystkich wyżej wymienionych naukach istnieje również góra dowodów przeciwko stworzeniu człowieka w jego obecnej formie. Już te początkowe fragmenty są dowodem na to, że ta księga Biblii była historią, w którą ludzie wierzyli tysiące lat temu, ponieważ nie było brak dowodów przeciwnych. Chociaż napisano wiele książek na temat tego, jak głupich jest wiele ksiąg Biblii, i z pewnością można udowodnić, że są błędne, najlepszym przykładem łatwo sfalsyfikowanych opowieści i góry sprzecznych dowodów są Księga Rodzaju i Historia Arki Noego w starym testamentu i księgi Objawienia w nowym testamencie. To wszystko są historie, które mają przeciwko nim górę dowodów.

A siódmego dnia Bóg odpoczął. Gdybym to był ja, po całym tym stworzeniu nastąpiłoby wypicie butelek wódki i tequili, które stworzyłem. pośród innych rzeczy.

Oczywiście nie dowodzi to, że żadna Biblia nie jest prawdziwa, ale dowodzi, że niektóre z Biblii i religii, które wierzą w te części, mogą się mylić. Nie dowodzi to też, że jakiś Bóg nie istnieje, ale nie można też dowieść nieistnienia niewidzialnych różowych jednorożców.

Mimo ostrej krytyki, z czasem, jeśli zaczniesz studiować nauki ścisłe, myślę, że również zdasz sobie sprawę, jak śmieszna jest Biblia.

z najlepszymi życzeniami, Panteory

Thank you for your answer - I appreciate it.

I heard the argument that even if plants were created before the sun according to Genesis, they had a different kind of light, because God separated light from darkness, so not only the sun gives light - and that's the apologists explain everything. Maybe I should have thought about how to refute their apologetic explanations? Yes, it's junior high school level, and I still remain the idiot who gets nothing.

However, I appreciate you trying to explain this religion to me, and thank you for your efforts. I'm still wondering and finally started watching more evolution movies - so I hope I'm moving forward.

May 23, 2022

On 21.05.2022 at 00:33, walterpthefirst said:

„Nie wiem” to szczera odpowiedź, Aibao. Dziękuję Ci.

Więc co powiesz na to?

Myślę, że mogę przedstawić wam argument, który całkowicie niszczy chrześcijaństwo.

Jeśli przyjmiesz logikę argumentu, powinieneś zobaczyć, że chrześcijaństwo nie może być prawdziwe.

Czy chciałbyś, żebym ci przedstawił ten argument?

Dziękuję Ci.

Waltera.

Walter - if you can do something about my idiotic thinking then give me that argument. I am afraid that I have low skills in critical thinking (I was gullible since I was a child and although I understood the differences between a fiction / fairy tale and the real world, since I remember I was a believer: first a Catholic, then a Pentecostal). So I learned to explain various illogical things for unbelieving people. But I have become acquainted with real apologetics quite recently, searching the arguments of Christians and atheists for some conclusions. I'm stuck. I am watching and reading material about evolution right now. However, even there, I found a statement that evolution does not exclude faith in God and may be compatible with religion (it is from the Polish channel, but the person in charge seems to be a non-believer).

Later I came across the term "theistic evolution" - I am slowly becoming discouraged from reading about evolution as I encounter more and more problems until I end up again that evolution can prove God. Especially since creationists even "appropriate" the Big Bang theory to confirm that God started the Big Bang.

So if you want to give me an argument to refute Christianity and it's an evolution, I have a lot of problems and questions for that. If this is to be an argument from the second coming of Jesus, I also have an explanation.

But I am open to any arguments. I also need time to organize everything in my head (recently it's hard for me to even concentrate, because I have other problems besides religious ones), so if you have patience with me, give me this argument. I am very curious, and you may end my religious torments.

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