Punishment contradictions

[Wertbag]

The bible says that people will be punished for their own sins, and not the sins of their parents, which is what the majority of us would understand to be justice:

Deuteronomy 24:16 “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.”

and

Ezekiel 18:20 “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”
 

However, elsewhere it repeatedly talks about punishing children for the sins of their parents:

Deuteronomy 5:9 (repeated in Numbers and Exodus) “I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me”.

Jeremiah 32:18 “You show steadfast love to thousands, but you repay the guilt of fathers to their children after them”.

Isaiah 14:21 “Prepare slaughter for his sons because of the guilt of their fathers”.
 

Which is unjust, but also contradicts the first two verses.  If you compare Deut 24:16 to the killing of the Egyptian first born, then they killed thousands of children specifically for the sins of the parents.

 

You also have the famous verse “an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, life for life” which is found in multiple places (Matthew 5:38, Deut 19:21, Exodus 21:24), which again is what we would all consider justice, that punishment is proportionate to the crime committed.  Yet many times this law isn't followed, for example God speaking to Cain after finding he murdered his brother, doesn't kill him as the law says but instead exiles him to the land of Nod, or the children who insulted Elijah for being bald, weren't punished in a like for like fashion but were torn to pieces.  The famous example of the old man collecting sticks on the sabbath, a victimless crime that is judged by God to be worthy of the death penalty.  How is that proportional to the crime committed?

 

The laws lay out the death penalty for disobedient children, adulterers, incest, bestiality, marrying both a woman and her mother in Leviticus 20.  None of which matches the idea of like for like punishment as laid out in those verses.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

The good lord can be both completely fair and completely arbitrary at the same time because he is omnipotent.  Also because he's... you know... +.

[Casualfanboy16]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

+

I know this is not entirely relevant to the comment, but I have been contemplating what these emojis together are supposed to mean for far too long. I feel like I'm stuck on a rebus puzzle that's supposed to be easy. Thinking shit? Shit for brains?? Shit at thinking??? What does this mean? I don't know why this part specifically is getting to me so much lmfao.

 

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The good lord can be both completely fair and completely arbitrary at the same time because he is omnipotent

Oh come on, Prof. His ways aren't your ways lmao

[TABA]

I’ll put you out of your misery @Casualfanboy16: it’s “Mysterious and Shit”, one of the Prof’s favorite phrases to describe the nature of the Lord.   

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, TABA said:

I’ll put you out of your misery @Casualfanboy16: it’s “Mysterious and Shit”, one of the Prof’s favorite phrases to describe the nature of the Lord.   

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Inconsistancy??  In the bible??  Surely Not!!  

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, Wertbag said:

The bible says that people will be punished for their own sins, and not the sins of their parents, which is what the majority of us would understand to be justice:

Deuteronomy 24:16 “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.”

and

Ezekiel 18:20 “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”
 

However, elsewhere it repeatedly talks about punishing children for the sins of their parents:

Deuteronomy 5:9 (repeated in Numbers and Exodus) “I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me”.

Jeremiah 32:18 “You show steadfast love to thousands, but you repay the guilt of fathers to their children after them”.

Isaiah 14:21 “Prepare slaughter for his sons because of the guilt of their fathers”.
 

Which is unjust, but also contradicts the first two verses.  If you compare Deut 24:16 to the killing of the Egyptian first born, then they killed thousands of children specifically for the sins of the parents.

 

You also have the famous verse “an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, life for life” which is found in multiple places (Matthew 5:38, Deut 19:21, Exodus 21:24), which again is what we would all consider justice, that punishment is proportionate to the crime committed.  Yet many times this law isn't followed, for example God speaking to Cain after finding he murdered his brother, doesn't kill him as the law says but instead exiles him to the land of Nod, or the children who insulted Elijah for being bald, weren't punished in a like for like fashion but were torn to pieces.  The famous example of the old man collecting sticks on the sabbath, a victimless crime that is judged by God to be worthy of the death penalty.  How is that proportional to the crime committed?

 

The laws lay out the death penalty for disobedient children, adulterers, incest, bestiality, marrying both a woman and her mother in Leviticus 20.  None of which matches the idea of like for like punishment as laid out in those verses.

 

All good points Wertbag, working upon the assumption that the bible is a reliable and integrated source.

 

Using the same basis, when looking at Romans 11 :32...

 

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

...we can see that nobody should ever be punished for any act of disobedience against god.

 

Not Cain, not the children who insulted Elijah and not the old man collecting sticks.  Nobody.

 

God caused everyone to disobey him, so that he could find us all guilty of disobedience and then have mercy on all of us through the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

Therefore true cause of our disobedience isn't our free will - god overrode that.

 

The true cause is god himself.

 

 

So, if anyone deserves punishing by god's inflexible standard it should be god himself!

[Casualfanboy16]

10 hours ago, TABA said:

I’ll put you out of your misery @Casualfanboy16: it’s “Mysterious and Shit”, one of the Prof’s favorite phrases to describe the nature of the Lord.   

Ah, okay. I can finally stop going crazy. Truly, the Lord works in mysterious ways

[TABA]

37 minutes ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

Ah, okay. I can finally stop going crazy. Truly, the Lord works in mysterious ways

Yep, but in this case it was the Prof, who I am convinced actually exists.

[RankStranger]

How much should contradictions matter to a Christian who isn't a fundamentalist?

 

Are there other/better ancient sacred texts of similar size and scope to the Bible, that aren't riddled with contradictions if read in a literal manner?  Just curious 

[TABA]

26 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

How much should contradictions matter to a Christian who isn't a fundamentalist?

 

Are there other/better ancient sacred texts of similar size and scope to the Bible, that aren't riddled with contradictions if read in a literal manner?  Just curious 

It depends on whether that Christian believes the Bible is inspired by God.  If it is, its content would be important, surely.  It would matter what God is saying: does salvation require baptism?  Is sprinkling good or is immersion required?  Is infant baptism valid?  Any contradictions or lack of clarity would seem to sow confusion among believers, at the least, and lead them to Hell, at worst.  Or is it just annihilation?  
 

If the Christian believes, as I do, that the Bible is entirely the work of fallible men, then it doesn’t matter. He can decide which parts he likes and which he doesn’t.  

[RankStranger]

Surely?  I'm not so sure 

 

Yes, I believe that the Bible is divinely inspired.  So what?  It was written by humans.  Transcribed by humans.  Edited by humans.  Mistranslated by humans.  Compiled and selected by human votes.  We all know this.

 

So I don't have specific answers to your theological questions, though we could discuss what others have had to say about it.  I hope that doesn't violate any formal debate rules... some folks can't handle that 

[RankStranger]

Also, how do other ancient sacred texts of similar scope and size to the Bible compare?  Do they lack contradictions, cruelty, mistranslations, etc?

 

Should we just throw them all out and live in a non-religious manner, unlike the vast VAST majority of human apes prior to us?

[TABA]

2 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Also, how do other ancient sacred texts of similar scope and size to the Bible compare?  Do they lack contradictions, cruelty, mistranslations, etc?

I haven’t done much comparing of ancient “sacred” texts.  I’m satisfied none of them were written, dictated or inspired by deities.  Like the Bible, some material is praiseworthy and wise.  Some is barbaric.

 

5 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Should we just throw them all out and live in a non-religious manner, unlike the vast VAST majority of human apes prior to us?

I’m not saying what you should do.  Personally, I seek wisdom from various quarters and try to apply it in my life.  I could do a lot worse than ask “What would Marcus Aurelius do?”  
 

And I do live in what I consider a non-religious manner.  But that’s just me.  You do you.  

[RankStranger]

9 minutes ago, TABA said:

I haven’t done much comparing of ancient “sacred” texts.  I’m satisfied none of them were written, dictated or inspired by deities.  Like the Bible, some material is praiseworthy and wise.  Some is barbaric.

 

I’m not saying what you should do.  Personally, I seek wisdom from various quarters and try to apply it in my life.  I could do a lot worse than ask “What would Marcus Aurelius do?”  
 

And I do live in what I consider a non-religious manner.  But that’s just me.  You do you.  

 

I like this post

[RankStranger]

21 minutes ago, TABA said:

I haven’t done much comparing of ancient “sacred” texts.  I’m satisfied none of them were written, dictated or inspired by deities.  Like the Bible, some material is praiseworthy and wise.  Some is barbaric.

 

I’m not saying what you should do.  Personally, I seek wisdom from various quarters and try to apply it in my life.  I could do a lot worse than ask “What would Marcus Aurelius do?”  
 

And I do live in what I consider a non-religious manner.  But that’s just me.  You do you.  

 

We agree on everything that's bolded.  I've been a big fan of the Stoics the past few years.  They were a wise bunch.  I was just listening to a podcast on it this morning while pulling weeds outta the yard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RankStranger]

23 minutes ago, TABA said:

I’m satisfied none of them were written, dictated or inspired by deities.
 

And I do live in what I consider a non-religious manner.  

 

On the small points where we disagree:

 

I'm not satisfied of anything like that.  But to convince you of anything I'd first have to have a solid grasp of who/what God is, and what the term means.  I have neither.

 

Also I don't think any human lives in a non-religious manner, though many think they do.

[Casualfanboy16]

20 minutes ago, TABA said:

I haven’t done much comparing of ancient “sacred” texts.  I’m satisfied none of them were written, dictated or inspired by deities.  Like the Bible, some material is praiseworthy and wise.  Some is barbaric.

This is exactly how I feel. I am also of the belief that no religious texts are divinely inspired or whatever no matter how much they say they are. I myself haven't done any comparisons either between other religious texts, although eventually I will check some out to find similarities and differences and point them like some kind of fun little game. The Bible does have its nuggets of wisdom here and there, but I personally am not going to follow it because a lot of it is outlandish, doesn't make sense or is extremely fucked up. You do you. I'm not gonna follow it. People can tell me I'm a sinner and I'm going to hell, but I just can't believe in something like this anymore. Already tried forcing myself back into the fold when my faith began crumbling and the questions and doubts piled up and, personally, I see no reason to go back now.

[TABA]

2 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

We agree on everything that's bolded.  I've been a big fan of the Stoics the past few years. 

We agree on a fair bit then.  As a Christian, you may be less keen on the Epicureans, but I value their perspective too.  I’ve been reading “Death is Nothing to Fear” by Haris Dimitriadis.  I think it’s especially useful to those of us who expect no afterlife, but even a believer might find it profitable.  
 

3 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Also I don't think any human lives in a non-religious manner, though many think they do.

I do my best.  I’m satisfied to be non-theistic.  
 

 

[RankStranger]

8 minutes ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

This is exactly how I feel. I am also of the belief that no religious texts are divinely inspired or whatever no matter how much they say they are. I myself haven't done any comparisons either between other religious texts, although eventually I will check some out to find similarities and differences and point them like some kind of fun little game. The Bible does have its nuggets of wisdom here and there, but I personally am not going to follow it because a lot of it is outlandish, doesn't make sense or is extremely fucked up. You do you. I'm not gonna follow it. People can tell me I'm a sinner and I'm going to hell, but I just can't believe in something like this anymore. Already tried forcing myself back into the fold when my faith began crumbling and the questions and doubts piled up and, personally, I see no reason to go back now.

 

I'm no scholar myself.  I'm just a simple hillbilly who's interested in discussions like these.

 

 

 

 

 

Even if you're not interested in the Bible, I agree with Taba's recommendation on the Stoics.  They make a lot of sense in today's world.  I'd also recommend Tao Te Ching.  Several audio versions are free on Youtube for hacks like myself who can't be bothered with respectable study.

[RankStranger]

11 minutes ago, TABA said:

We agree on a fair bit then.  As a Christian, you may be less keen on the Epicureans, but I value their perspective too.  I’ve been reading “Death is Nothing to Fear” by Haris Dimitriadis.  I think it’s especially useful to those of us who expect no afterlife, but even a believer might find it profitable.  
 

I do my best.  I’m satisfied to be non-theistic.  
 

 

 

I don't know enough about Epicureans to have any opinion.  I may have an opinion later today:

 

 

 

But based on the intro, I'm not sure sure I have a problem with Epicureanism.  Nothing wrong with some unconventional philosophical framing.

[RankStranger]

"We are like a little appendage of Zeus.  And who is an appendage to question the plans of the whole body?

 

It's a good question 

[Casualfanboy16]

5 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

We are like a little appendage of Zeus.

Which appendage though?

[RankStranger]

That's not up to us 

[Casualfanboy16]

18 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Even if you're not interested in the Bible,

As of right now, the Bible is something I do plan on reading some time later to go back through and kind of dissect and compare/contrast between other religions. I find it interesting from a historical perspective and find it like a look into the world back then. Again, I don't believe it's divinely inspired and rather man-made; but it's something I do plan on revisiting when I feel comfortable enough to even pick one up again. Religious trauma doesn't really help. Neither does my past experiences and my current ones either. I'm trying to dive into other perspectives and philosophies and all that jazz before I return to reading that thing. It's done too much damage for me to want to even lay eyes on it right now.