Punishment contradictions

[RankStranger]

Just now, TABA said:

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!

 

Because I've been looking for an opportunity to use this favorite for a while now...

 

 

I like this post.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

10 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Case 1:  I believe in God, and God isn't vengeful and legalistic because Jesus.

Result:  Heaven 

According to scripture, though, even jesus isn't a safe bet. 

 

 

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  Romans 10:13

 

But jesus himself said:

 

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven  Matthew 7:21

 

This seems to suggest that even if you "believe in God, and God isn't vengeful and legalistic because Jesus" that is still not a guarantee of salvation.  If you call on the name of the lord (jesus), you will be saved... unless you're one of the ones who calls jesus "lord" but doesn't get to be saved.  

 

This is why, if I were in your position, the details would matter.  The contradictions would matter.  The certainties and "shoulds" would matter.

 

Thankfully, I'm not in your position. 

[RankStranger]

X-Christians sure do have a lot of opinions on what Christians 'should' believe.

 

I think X-Christians should believe whatever they want.  These are strange days...

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

 

In reply to the bolded (not interested in the rest):

 

In a sense, yes.  I have no way of knowing that I'm 'saved' any more than any other Christian does.  But I'm not tying myself in knots over it, because I don't think it's as simple as believing or doing precisely the correct things (unlike my Holiness brethren).  And I don't go to a church where every sermon revolves around 'personal salvation'. 

 

Thank you for your candour here, Rank.

 

Many people are loathe to admit that they just don't certain things.

 

You seem to be comfortable with not knowing (or not being able to know?) and are therefore (I presume) living in hope and going by faith.

 

Forgive me if I've extrapolated incorrectly about your beliefs.

 

 

Walter.

 

[TABA]

24 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

X-Christians sure do have a lot of opinions on what Christians 'should' believe.

More accurately, ex-christians, having once been christians, know a lot about what both the Bible and other christians say that christians should believe, how they should live, how they should worship, etc.  We didn’t imagine it, you know.  
 

24 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

I think X-Christians should believe whatever they want

We believe only what we find to be true.  Letting go of all that dogma is great!  Why not join us!

[walterpthefirst]

16 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

X-Christians sure do have a lot of opinions on what Christians 'should' believe.

 

I think X-Christians should believe whatever they want.  These are strange days...

 

Perhaps that's because many of us came from churches and denominations where the bible was taken as THE source of what a Christian should be and should believe?

 

And its therefore difficult for us to step into the shoes of someone who calls themself a Christian, but doesn't seem to take the bible this way.

 

Hence our persistent questioning on the matter.

 

 

For example, I once worked with a lady who called herself a Christian, but who melded together bits and pieces from Buddhism, Hinduism, Spiritualism and New Age beliefs.

 

Was she a Christian?

 

By her own standards, feelings and beliefs, she was.

 

 

 

Walter.

[RankStranger]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Thank you for your candour here, Rank.

 

Many people are loathe to admit that they just don't certain things.

 

You seem to be comfortable with not knowing (or not being able to know?) and are therefore (I presume) living in hope and going by faith.

 

Forgive me if I've extrapolated incorrectly about your beliefs.

 

 

Walter.

 

 

Thanks Walter.  Yes, you understand me correctly.

 

There's a lot that I don't know.  It wouldn't be honest to claim otherwise.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

18 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

That's a lot of 'shoulds' for a guy who allegedly doesn't believe.

 

I prefer leaving 'shoulds' up to the individual.  We can all read.

thats funny. When I was a Christian I didn't want to lose my salvation. You can say, leave it up to the individual all you want. But according to the bible. If I was still a believer. You and Ed would be in the category or Luke Warm Christians destined to be spewed from Jesus's mouth at the end of time. 

 

So here's some If's to go along with my shoulds. 

 

If you believe the bible is divinely inspired.

If you believe there is a heaven to gain.

If you believe there is a hell to avoid.

 

You should find out what it is that you believe so you can obtain your reward. 

 

And If you don't believe in heaven or hell. Then whats the point? Just to praise gods violent and jealous ass in life just to have nothing for an afterlife? 

 

And If it is inspired, why would God let his people make it SSSOOOOO fucked up? Especially to the point that the basic directions for salvation can't be nailed down and defined between denominations? After all. He speaks to everyone through the Holy Ghost. He could set the record straight. If he is real. 

 

But if your goal is just to have a generalized belief in Christianity and leave out all of the doctrines and dogma........ well I've told you and Ed before that I'm glad yalls Christian belief allows you to have the freedom to live your life as you please. ......... but that isn't really Christianity is it? The whole point of the story is that we aren't good enough from front to back and sacrifices must be made or accepted so you can be acceptable to God. Allowing you to live with him in heaven for eternity. As the bible says. In:

 

James 2

 

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

Don't take this to terribly hard. Or get pissed off. I was a holiness preacher. So what constitutes a Christian from my former Christian point of view is very narrow. I was never part of a liberal Christian church. Not really. 

 

DB

[RankStranger]

11 minutes ago, TABA said:

More accurately, ex-christians, having once been christians, know a lot about what both the Bible and other christians say that christians should believe, how they should live, how they should worship, etc.  We didn’t imagine it, you know.  

 

Sure, I get that.  It's just strange that you seem to put more stock in their opinions than I do.  I'm a practicing Christian and I do care what others have to say about it.  But ultimately this is between me and God.

 

 

Quote

We believe only what we find to be true.  Letting go of all that dogma is great!  Why not join us!

 

Been there, done that 

[TABA]

5 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Been there, done that 

Ah yeah, I nearly forgot.  But it seems all those years as an atheist did an awesome job of decluttering your belief system.  

[RankStranger]

5 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

thats funny. When I was a Christian I didn't want to lose my salvation. You can say, leave it up to the individual all you want. But according to the bible. If I was still a believer. You and Ed would be in the category or Luke Warm Christians destined to be spewed from Jesus's mouth at the end of time. 

 

So here's some If's to go along with my shoulds. 

 

If you believe the bible is divinely inspired.

If you believe there is a heaven to gain.

If you believe there is a hell to avoid.

 

You should find out what it is that you believe so you can obtain your reward. 

 

And If you don't believe in heaven or hell. Then whats the point? Just to praise gods violent and jealous ass in life just to have nothing for an afterlife? 

 

And If it is inspired, why would God let his people make it SSSOOOOO fucked up? Especially to the point that the basic directions for salvation can't be nailed down and defined between denominations? After all. He speaks to everyone through the Holy Ghost. He could set the record straight. If he is real. 

 

But if your goal is just to have a generalized belief in Christianity and leave out all of the doctrines and dogma........ well I've told you and Ed before that I'm glad yalls Christian belief allows you to have the freedom to live your life as you please. ......... but that isn't really Christianity is it? The whole point of the story is that we aren't good enough from front to back and sacrifices must be made or accepted so you can be acceptable to God. Allowing you to live with him in heaven for eternity. As the bible says. In:

 

James 2

 

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

Don't take this to terribly hard. Or get pissed off. I was a holiness preacher. So what constitutes a Christian from my former Christian point of view is very narrow. I was never part of a liberal Christian church. Not really. 

 

DB

 

I'm not taking any of this hard DB.  And I'm not interested in defending some new dogma.  Or some old dogma.

 

Have you ever considered that Christianity might be worthwhile even if you aren't particularly worried about carrots and sticks?

 

Honestly, all this scriptural dogma that y'all seem to think I ought to believe... to me it kinda looks like people gaming the system.  I mean, if one is merely scared of hell, and merely wants to go to heaven... is that faith?

 

I don't know.  But it sure didn't work for me.

 

[RankStranger]

11 minutes ago, TABA said:

Ah yeah, I nearly forgot.  But it seems all those years as an atheist did an awesome job of decluttering your belief system.  

 

Absolutely.

[freshstart]

On 8/7/2023 at 11:17 AM, RankStranger said:

How much should contradictions matter to a Christian who isn't a fundamentalist?

Or to spin the question differently, how much should Christianity matter to a Christian who ignores (or is not bothered by) all the contradictions? Why not just subscribe to believing in a more generic god? Why does it have to be Christianity?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Have you ever considered that Christianity might be worthwhile even if you aren't particularly worried about carrots and sticks?

No, I'm not delusional. Christianity was crafted to control people and make them govern themselves through belief in sin, evil, and Good. 

 

Without all that, it is just a children's Sunday school type of belief. That wouldn't really make significant change in peoples lives like the biblical God supposedly wants. The very basics of Christianity are Repentence and salvation. Followed by water baptism. Which some denominations say isn't completely necessary. (For such instances such as the thief on the cross, he didn't have the chance to be baptized before death) 

 

And in my former belief. After that. Works. There is a Christlike life to be lived after salvation. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

13 minutes ago, freshstart said:

Why not just subscribe to believing in a more generic god? Why does it have to be Christianity?

Good point Fresh start. And this is where I am at Rank. I have somewhat of a belief in a creator God but do not define that God in any way as there is no way for me to know the personality of this God as I have never personally met it. 

 

All I can do is hope that my life pleases it to some degree. If it even pays attention to our lives. 

 

DB

[RankStranger]

6 minutes ago, freshstart said:

Or to spin the question differently, how much should Christianity matter to a Christian who ignores (or is not bothered by) all the contradictions? Why not just subscribe to believing in a more generic god? Why does it have to be Christianity?

 

Because I'm a Christian and I like being one.  When I envision the divine, it's the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.  Blame that on neurology if you like, but it's a fact.

 

I like praying.  I like singing hymns.  I like reading or listening to the bible and thinking/praying about it.  I loved going back to my old church, and I'm thankful that I can now do that any time I want.  Or not, if I want.  I look forward to going to Church Camp maybe next year if I have time for the trip.

 

I don't much like preachers on teevee or the radio.  I don't like nagging people about Jesus.  I don't like churches whose business it is to tell everybody why they're going to hell this Sunday.  And I don't like arrogant 'Christians' demanding special privileges.

 

I've always been interested in religion in general and Christianity in particular.  Now that I'm no longer an Atheist, I can let that interest run wild.  I don't care if other people think I'm doing it the wrong way.

 

 

 

 

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Perhaps that's because many of us came from churches and denominations where the bible was taken as THE source of what a Christian should be and should believe?

 

And its therefore difficult for us to step into the shoes of someone who calls themself a Christian, but doesn't seem to take the bible this way.

 

Hence our persistent questioning on the matter.

 

 

 

 

I came from exactly that sort of church, but I don't see things that way anymore.

 

There seems to be this idea in a lot of churches and among a lot of Christians that if a little bit of Bible is good, a metric fuck-ton of Bible is a metric fuck-ton better.

 

I don't think it works that way.

 

 

Quote

For example, I once worked with a lady who called herself a Christian, but who melded together bits and pieces from Buddhism, Hinduism, Spiritualism and New Age beliefs.

 

Was she a Christian?

 

By her own standards, feelings and beliefs, she was.

 

 

 

Walter.

 

I don't know if she's a Christian... I figure that's between her and God.  But it sounds like she knows how to party.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

8 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

There seems to be this idea in a lot of churches and among a lot of Christians that if a little bit of Bible is good, a metric fuck-ton of Bible is a metric fuck-ton better.

I was always taught that the Bible was inerrant. Probably a lot of the metric fuck ton believers are the same. As a result, for me, if it isn't inerrant. Well then its only use for me is to study it in an attempt to understand the ancient believers that wrote it. And that is where I find my peace in the bible now. In understanding it and finding out all its dirty little secrets

 

DB

[RankStranger]

Just now, DarkBishop said:

I was always taught that the Bible was inerrant. Probably a lot of the metric fuck ton believers are the same. As a result, for me, if it isn't inerrant. Well then its only use for me is to study it in an attempt to understand the ancient believers that wrote it. And that is where I find my peace in the bible now. In understanding it and finding out all its dirty little secrets

 

DB

 

Nothing wrong with that.  But why the Bible in particular, if you're not a believer?

 

I think Taba's comment about 30 years of atheism having de-cluttered my belief system is spot on.  You might do well to study other religions rather than just nitpicking one that you're sick of.

 

I'm not concerned with leading you away from Jesus.  First of all I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be capable of that.  Secondly, I don't know if ultimately that's even possible.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

 

Nothing wrong with that.  But why the Bible in particular, if you're not a believer?

 

Iaas think Taba's comment about 30 years of atheism having de-cluttered my belief system is spot on.  You might do well to study other religions rather than just nitpicking one that you're sick of.

 

I'm not concerned with leading you away from Jesus.  First of all I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be capable of that.  Secondly, I don't know if ultimately that's even possible.

Fair question 

 

Well when I was a believer I always wanted  God to show me wisdom and truth in his will, way, and word. To some extent that hasn't changed. It is just that, that truth has lead to my disbelief in the bible and its God. 

 

Also at the beginning of my deconversion I needed to focus on and study the various reasons why the Bible was a book of myth. so that when I would eventually get confronted with people from my past I could expound the reasons why I no longer believed. And it bolstered my own resolve to leave Christianity behind. To the point now that I don't believe I will ever be in danger of being trapped again by Christianity. 

 

As a former minister I knew I would eventually have to talk to some of my former pastors and colleagues. And it did happen and still does from time to time. 

 

Also, a lot of my desire to study the Bible now is to help those that come here. Who are deconverting from harmful religions. Understanding the reasons why these ancient people wrote scripture or changed ideologies helps. 

 

Because the problem is that each author wrote what they considered the truth. I don't think any of them were malicious in their writings. But this did result in contradictions. They all felt God was talking to them and they all felt compelled to write about it. 

 

Sometimes it kept the faith together. Like when they were enslaved by Babylon. The prophets told them it was because of the sin of isreal that God turned his back on them. And that if they turned to God he would bring them back. 

 

Or when the early church began to realize Jesus was not coming back in the lifetime of the apostles. 2nd Peter was born (a known forgery) and kicked the can down the road. A 1000 years is as a day and a day as a 1000 years with God. He will come when we least expect it. Like a thief in the night. Etc, etc. The author wrote his truth and kept the church together till now.

 

Now the church is dwindling and they will need to revamp something again. Maybe your new form of Christianity is the answer rank. Just believe in Jesus and fuck all the rest. 

 

So actually understanding the bible from a historical perspective is very profitable for this website. I'm not saying I'm a scholar by any means. But I keep learning. And every new thing I learn gives me those wonderful AH HAH moments where I get happy and say. "NOW THAT MAKES SENSE". 

 

Like I said. That is where I find my peace with the Bible now. I'm finally learning the truth and I love it. As far as studying other religions. I might. Maybe eventually a little Buddhism to learn meditation. I already practiced Wicca as a teen and early 20something. But I don't see a lot of benefit from learning other religions. They are all the same. The made up fables of man. I just like understanding the one religion that was a key part of my own past. 

 

DB

[Wertbag]

2 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

Thanks Walter.  Yes, you understand me correctly.

 

There's a lot that I don't know.  It wouldn't be honest to claim otherwise.

I would say you appear to be one of the Christians who I can really respect.  Saying "I don't know", for both sides of the argument, is often something people struggle to do.  It's silly when you think about it, as there are tons of things that all of us don't know, but we have this built in feeling that admitting ignorance is an automatic failure.  If we admit we don't know, then the other person is right by default.  It's a strangely human position that many of us fall into, so anyone who is smart enough to understand their own ignorance gets my respect.

I've heard people say they struggle with certain biblical verses, with divine hiddenness or the problem of evil, but I take such admissions as a point to respect.  They have thought and considered hard subjects and not just hand waved away such problems.  It shows deeper thinking and a willingness to face hard questions.  Someone who claims to know it all almost always gets there by having a superficial understanding of the subject.  Someone who doesn't know it all usually has seen just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

[RankStranger]

20 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Fair question 

 

Well when I was a believer I always wanted  God to show me wisdom and truth in his will, way, and word. To some extent that hasn't changed. It is just that, that truth has lead to my disbelief in the bible and its God. 

 

Also at the beginning of my deconversion I needed to focus on and study the various reasons why the Bible was a book of myth. so that when I would eventually get confronted with people from my past I could expound the reasons why I no longer believed. And it bolstered my own resolve to leave Christianity behind. To the point now that I don't believe I will ever be in danger of being trapped again by Christianity. 

 

As a former minister I knew I would eventually have to talk to some of my former pastors and colleagues. And it did happen and still does from time to time. 

 

Also, a lot of my desire to study the Bible now is to help those that come here. Who are deconverting from harmful religions. Understanding the reasons why these ancient people wrote scripture or changed ideologies helps. 

 

Because the problem is that each author wrote what they considered the truth. I don't think any of them were malicious in their writings. But this did result in contradictions. They all felt God was talking to them and they all felt compelled to write about it. 

 

Sometimes it kept the faith together. Like when they were enslaved by Babylon. The prophets told them it was because of the sin of isreal that God turned his back on them. And that if they turned to God he would bring them back. 

 

Or when the early church began to realize Jesus was not coming back in the lifetime of the apostles. 2nd Peter was born (a known forgery) and kicked the can down the road. A 1000 years is as a day and a day as a 1000 years with God. He will come when we least expect it. Like a thief in the night. Etc, etc. The author wrote his truth and kept the church together till now.

 

Now the church is dwindling and they will need to revamp something again. Maybe your new form of Christianity is the answer rank. Just believe in Jesus and fuck all the rest. 

 

So actually understanding the bible from a historical perspective is very profitable for this website. I'm not saying I'm a scholar by any means. But I keep learning. And every new thing I learn gives me those wonderful AH HAH moments where I get happy and say. "NOW THAT MAKES SENSE". 

 

Like I said. That is where I find my peace with the Bible now. I'm finally learning the truth and I love it. As far as studying other religions. I might. Maybe eventually a little Buddhism to learn meditation. I already practiced Wicca as a teen and early 20something. But I don't see a lot of benefit from learning other religions. They are all the same. The made up fables of man. I just like understanding the one religion that was a key part of my own past. 

 

DB

 

That makes sense.  I wish you luck on your journey.  And I still recommend listening to the Tao Te Ching.

[RankStranger]

13 minutes ago, Wertbag said:

I would say you appear to be one of the Christians who I can really respect.  Saying "I don't know", for both sides of the argument, is often something people struggle to do.  It's silly when you think about it, as there are tons of things that all of us don't know, but we have this built in feeling that admitting ignorance is an automatic failure.  If we admit we don't know, then the other person is right by default.  It's a strangely human position that many of us fall into, so anyone who is smart enough to understand their own ignorance gets my respect.

I've heard people say they struggle with certain biblical verses, with divine hiddenness or the problem of evil, but I take such admissions as a point to respect.  They have thought and considered hard subjects and not just hand waved away such problems.  It shows deeper thinking and a willingness to face hard questions.  Someone who claims to know it all almost always gets there by having a superficial understanding of the subject.  Someone who doesn't know it all usually has seen just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

 

Wow, thanks.  I agree that it's important for people to admit what they don't know.  IMO false certainty causes a lot of problems, not just in religion.

[walterpthefirst]

12 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

Wow, thanks.  I agree that it's important for people to admit what they don't know.  IMO false certainty causes a lot of problems, not just in religion.

 

Would you agree that it works the other way round, Rank?

 

What I would call the false certainty that there is always a gap into which god can be inserted.

 

The false certainty of using our ignorance to justify believing in things for which there is no evidence.

 

Isn't that an equally dangerous trap?

 

The sword of false certainty cutting both ways rather than just cutting one way?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RankStranger]

It's absolutely dangerous.  Problem is, so is everything else in God's creation.

 

Edit 1: Added Edit 2.

 

Edit2:  Well, 'absolutely' probably isn't the right word.  So let's call that one rhetorical. 

 

Edit 3:  Added Edit 1 for clarity.

 

Reason: Forgot to type "Edit:"