Massa Peccati -- Corpus Peccatti

[Ravenstar]

Wait a minute.. just because something feels good does not make it bad, or a 'sin'. We are programmed to move towards things that are good for us.. food, safety, warmth, sex (continuation of the species) altruism (good for survival of a social species).. it's when these things get twisted or exaggerated that they can be destructive, they are not BAD in and of themselves.

 

It FEELS good when I am kind to someone, or take joy in someone else's accomplishment.. is that a sin? no. It FEELS good when I succeed in teaching my child something valuable to their future, or when I do a good job at something. If I'm not using someone for sexual gratification at their expense.. and am sharing something wonderful with them… how is that a sin?

 

The entire concept of sin is ambiguous and undefined.. it is not a USEFUL word.

 

I stand by the pagan moral of  'harm none, but do what thou wilt.'  It covers all bases without making me neurotic… be careful of your actions and try not to harm others, but remember to take care of yourself too.  Keep it simple.

 

As to the OP… when I see that Christians are more moral than others - then I will give it some weight.. not seeing it. Their 'promises' of becoming a 'new creation' are hogwash, or having the power to stop 'sinning', baloney.. the proof is in the pudding. It's all empty words.

[bornagainathiest]

Sent 10 November 2014 - 03:00 AM

Please do the right, the honest, the loving and the Christian thing and confess to being a promise-breaking, untrustworthy troll BEFORE you post anything else at Ex-C, Ironhorse.

You owe the members and the lurkers that much.

.

If you won't do this, you can be sure that I will.

I respect them and deal with them honestly, even if you don't.

.

A copy of this PM will be posted in every thread you pop up in, the next time you do so - letting everyone know that you are treating them dishonestly and without respect.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ficino's point, that Ironhorse has given no reason why we should believe anything he writes should be compared with what I PMed him on the 10th.

 

There are six very good reasons why we shouldn't believe anything Ironhorse posts.

 

1.  Ironhorse breaks his promises.

2.  He's proven himself to be untrustworthy.

3.  He's had a thread closed down by the Mods for trolling.

4.  He refuses to let any newbies and lurkers know these things about him.

5.  Which shows that he has no respect for the truth.

6.  And that he has no respect for any of the members of this forum.

.

.

.

Which is why I'm posting this.

Please read, digest and ignore all future posts by Ironhorse.

 

Thank you.

 

BAA.

[Burny]

 

 

Your statement: "Christianity teaches that we non-believers are lumps of evil."

 

That is incorrect. The scriptures teach we are all evil. We are all sinners.

 

 

As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

 

~Romans 3:10

 

Does this mean that we are programmed to be sinners? If so, then do you believe that we have free will? If you believe both of those things to be true, then explain how two contradictory ideas can both be factual.

 

 

 

God created us in his image. We have free will. We are not programmed robots.

 

There is no contradiction.

 

 

So then what are you in Heaven? If there's a million Christians in Heaven are they going to have "free will" there? Heaven won't last very long, considering TWO humans sinned within 1 generation! Or are you all going to be robots with no free will so that sinning again isn't an option? :|

 

And what about Reformers who don't teach free will, but rather predestination? Are they going to your Heaven? Cause you ain't going to theirs!!

[Guest end3]

 

To play devil's advocate here, maybe sin feels good. (I was bored)

If you "knew" that what feels good is "sin," according to the Absolute, and what feels evil is "virtue," according to the Absolute -- can you have a reason to conform yourself to the Absolute?

 

Yes, but not to exclude that sometimes what feels good IS good and what feels bad IS bad....then this would be worth the sacrifice to conform to the Absolute.

[Guest end3]

I stand by the pagan moral of  'harm none, but do what thou wilt.'  It covers all bases without making me neurotic… be careful of your actions and try not to harm others, but remember to take care of yourself too.  Keep it simple.

How do you know that even in your attempts to not harm others you are not? Just by feeling good?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Ironhorse, please explain how god can know through his omniscience what choices I will make if I have the free will to make any choice I want to.

[Ravenstar]

I know by the consequences.. not that hard to figure out if one is moderately aware.

 

I also know that realistically it is not possible to live and interact with others without causing some reaction - negative or positive. Some people are going to be hurt, sometimes. But I am comfortable knowing that I have examined myself and my choices deeply enough to have caused the least possible damage and that I very rarely do anything which is intentionally harmful.(I may lose my temper once in a blue moon and say something I regret.. I always own up and make amends) I take full responsibility for my choices and actions.

 

I don't believe in perfection - perfection is a fantasy, just progress and doing my best. That's good enough. 

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Ironhorse, please explain how god can know through his omniscience what choices I will make if I have the free will to make any choice I want to.

 

Ah, maybe "God" went through this already, without knowing the future at all, and recorded it on Divine Video and decided to play the video from scratch, so that he would know everything that happened originally. Maybe we had free will the first time through, but now, we're just on repeat.

[Ravenstar]

 

I stand by the pagan moral of  'harm none, but do what thou wilt.'  It covers all bases without making me neurotic… be careful of your actions and try not to harm others, but remember to take care of yourself too.  Keep it simple.

How do you know that even in your attempts to not harm others you are not? Just by feeling good?

 

No… I know because sometimes the right choice is not always the easy one. I also know though that I am not responsible for everything another person feels.. they have choices too. Being kind, even when doing what's necessary really helps.

[Guest end3]

I know by the consequences.. not that hard to figure out if one is moderately aware.

 

I also know that realistically it is not possible to live and interact with others without causing some reaction - negative or positive. Some people are going to be hurt, sometimes. But I am comfortable knowing that I have examined myself and my choices deeply enough to have caused the least possible damage and that I very rarely do anything which is intentionally harmful.(I may lose my temper once in a blue moon and say something I regret.. I always own up and make amends) I take full responsibility for my choices and actions.

 

I don't believe in perfection - perfection is a fantasy, just progress and doing my best. That's good enough.

Sometimes the consequences don't show up until years later...

[Llwellyn]

If you judge certain things to be good, would anything be added to imagine an Absolute that also judges the same things in the same way? If you have love, would it be relevant that there is "LOVE"? Does something become more loathsome to you if you postulate that it is loathesome also in reference to an Absolute? Or, is everything else, apart from your judgment, a wash?

[Guest end3]

changed my mind...deleted post

[Ravenstar]

Like I said, perfection doesn't exist. We are going to make mistakes.. we are human. I don't see the point of living in fear.. do the best you can and realize that shit happens… learn from it, fix what you can and move on. Forgive yourself for being human.. if you can't then you have some work to do on yourself.

[Ravenstar]

 

 

 

I stand by the pagan moral of  'harm none, but do what thou wilt.'  It covers all bases without making me neurotic… be careful of your actions and try not to harm others, but remember to take care of yourself too.  Keep it simple.

How do you know that even in your attempts to not harm others you are not? Just by feeling good?

 

No… I know because sometimes the right choice is not always the easy one. I also know though that I am not responsible for everything another person feels.. they have choices too. Being kind, even when doing what's necessary really helps.

 

Here's a thought. If we could predict the best outcome for others while doing our daily routine, what would that look like. If Llwellyn would rather not discuss this, then push it back off the table.

 

Fair enough

[TheRedneckProfessor]

changed my mind...

There's a first.  

[gall]

The proposition of being saved is believing that Christ saves...hence the big arguments of faith vs. works. In other words, we all may live a righteous life and feel great, but the mechanism that gets us to Heaven is Jesus.

 

yeah why even bother living a decent life... you can get saved at the last minute if you time it right and fuck everyone around you waiting for that moment gamble you timed it right and get into heaven right along side a person who got "saved" then spent their entire life in duty to others giving and never taking back from the world.

 

Sounds like another lame excuse in the biggest excuse ever thought up in the world to date... christianity is nothing but crutch for the lazy and primative mind.

 

you know how ignorant a doctrine like this sounds to anyone with an education and a penchant for reality? From the first time I heard this load it was just one more brick in a wall of dishonesty that is religion.

 

the only place people argue over works versus faith is in religious circles. The rest of us don't give a shit.

[mikey101]

 

I stand by the pagan moral of  'harm none, but do what thou wilt.'  It covers all bases without making me neurotic… be careful of your actions and try not to harm others, but remember to take care of yourself too.  Keep it simple.

How do you know that even in your attempts to not harm others you are not? Just by feeling good?

 

Kind of like how Christians don't realize they are harming others by promoting exclusivity, elitism and religious intolerance by claiming to have the only Truth™ and those who don't believe the same are condemned?  

 

Or do you know you aren't harming others because you feel God's love?  

 

Ever heard the expression "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

[Guest end3]

 

 

I stand by the pagan moral of  'harm none, but do what thou wilt.'  It covers all bases without making me neurotic… be careful of your actions and try not to harm others, but remember to take care of yourself too.  Keep it simple.

How do you know that even in your attempts to not harm others you are not? Just by feeling good?

 

Kind of like how Christians don't realize they are harming others by promoting exclusivity, elitism and religious intolerance by claiming to have the only Truth and those who don't believe the same are condemned?  

 

Or do you know you aren't harming others because you feel God's love?  

 

Ever heard the expression "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

 

Pretty sure Christians know that Mike....maybe not so much new converts, but...

[mikey101]

 

 

 

I stand by the pagan moral of  'harm none, but do what thou wilt.'  It covers all bases without making me neurotic… be careful of your actions and try not to harm others, but remember to take care of yourself too.  Keep it simple.

How do you know that even in your attempts to not harm others you are not? Just by feeling good?

 

Kind of like how Christians don't realize they are harming others by promoting exclusivity, elitism and religious intolerance by claiming to have the only Truth™ and those who don't believe the same are condemned?  

 

Or do you know you aren't harming others because you feel God's love?  

 

Ever heard the expression "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

 

Pretty sure Christians know that Mike....maybe not so much new converts, but...

 

I'm pretty sure a large number of Christians, new or not, believe Jesus is the only way.

[mymistake]

 

 

 

I stand by the pagan moral of  'harm none, but do what thou wilt.'  It covers all bases without making me neurotic… be careful of your actions and try not to harm others, but remember to take care of yourself too.  Keep it simple.

How do you know that even in your attempts to not harm others you are not? Just by feeling good?

 

Kind of like how Christians don't realize they are harming others by promoting exclusivity, elitism and religious intolerance by claiming to have the only Truth and those who don't believe the same are condemned?  

 

Or do you know you aren't harming others because you feel God's love?  

 

Ever heard the expression "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

 

 

 

Pretty sure Christians know that Mike....maybe not so much new converts, but...

 

 

 

History demonstrates the vast majority of Christians do not realize that their religion or even when their own actions are harmful.

 

In my own extended family right now there is a feud brewing.  Christians are on both sides and each is convinced that the other side is being fooled by Satan.  This is the fruit of Christianity.  It divides and deludes.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

 

I stand by the pagan moral of  'harm none, but do what thou wilt.'  It covers all bases without making me neurotic… be careful of your actions and try not to harm others, but remember to take care of yourself too.  Keep it simple.

How do you know that even in your attempts to not harm others you are not? Just by feeling good?

 

Kind of like how Christians don't realize they are harming others by promoting exclusivity, elitism and religious intolerance by claiming to have the only Truth™ and those who don't believe the same are condemned?  

 

Or do you know you aren't harming others because you feel God's love?  

 

Ever heard the expression "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

 

Pretty sure Christians know that Mike....maybe not so much new converts, but...

 

End, if you didn't make assertions like this, that you can't support with evidence, and that are easy for us to disprove, you might have more credibility here.

 

As an aside, there aren't many "new converts" in places like the US; most xians were indoctrinated as children.  It is unusual for someone raised by nonbelievers to convert to xianity or to stay xian for very long.  Probably growing up in a xian-dominated culture affected them anyway.

[Strategos]

 

The proposition of being saved is believing that Christ saves...hence the big arguments of faith vs. works. In other words, we all may live a righteous life and feel great, but the mechanism that gets us to Heaven is Jesus.

 

There is no heaven.  There is no mechanism to get to a place that does not exist.

 

 

Prove this statement. We are asked to do this all the time, so why should you be excluded.

 

 

 

[Strategos]

 

Christianity teaches that we non-believers are lumps of evil.  Augustine's latin phrase is that humans were born “one lump of sin” (una massa peccati) without redeeming qualities.  The Christian says that "our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed."  Romans 6:6.

 

If Christianity says that I am a lump of sin, then why do I feel so good?  And if what I judge as "good" is what they judge as "evil," then what reason would I have to want to convert and destroy it?  What do I really know about the "lump of goodness" they would offer me as an alternative?  What would that look like?  Would it smell bad?  Would it be in pain?  The miracle of conversion, of glorification, would it be something that I could, from this side, admire?  Would I later, if regenerated, regret it?

 

Christians -- any answers?

 

 

 

"Christianity teaches that we non-believers are lumps of evil."

 

False statement.

 

The bible teaches that we are all a lump of evil, not just non- believers. In other words, we are all sinners.

 

But what is a sinner?

 

The answer is simple. A sinner is anyone who rebels against God.

 

How do we know we have rebeled?

 

God's word lays down that foundation so that we may know if we are.

 

 

"If Christianity says that I am a lump of sin, then why do I feel so good?"

 

Only you can answer that, but I have a question, which is: How should sin feel? I mean, before you can know you must have some sort of reference by which to make such a jugement.

 

"And if what I judge as "good" is what they judge as "evil," then what reason would I have to want to convert and destroy it?"

 

I guess none. Because if you are happy living in your sin, then why move away from it. This is a point I was making in another post. At the time, before I found God, I was perfectly happy living as I wanted. But once my eyes were open, I could understand his word, I was changed. Not because I all of sudden chose to change, but because it just happened. I can explain it now, but it still suprises me on how, just with words, then later followed up by God's actions, I was transformed.

 

"What do I really know about the "lump of goodness" they would offer me as an alternative?"

 

This sounds like "What do I get if I believe"

 

I myself never come to God looking for gifts. I came to him because first I discovered him, then I found that his heart matched mine, in other words, I believe in what he believes in, and so on and so forth. 

 

[mymistake]

 

 

The proposition of being saved is believing that Christ saves...hence the big arguments of faith vs. works. In other words, we all may live a righteous life and feel great, but the mechanism that gets us to Heaven is Jesus.

 

There is no heaven.  There is no mechanism to get to a place that does not exist.

 

 

Prove this statement. We are asked to do this all the time, so why should you be excluded.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Christian concept of heaven was a mish-mash of ideas stolen from Greek, Roman and Egyptian religions; religions that Christians declare to be false.

 

QED

 

You're welcome.

 

 

 

I think Sam Harris said it best.  To paraphrase, there is no soul.  Human activity has been mapped to specific areas of the brain.  When one of these areas is lost in an accident the person loses that part of their function that part of the brain gave.  You consciousness is simply a creation of your brain.  Those who have lost function from having lost part of their brain will not regain that function when their mythical soul lifts off of their body.  You are the activity of your brain and when that activity stops you no longer exist as an entity.

 

Here:

 

 

 

There is no Stovokor where you will join Kahless if the Valkyries thought you were brave in battle.

[Strategos]

 

Your statement: "Christianity teaches that we non-believers are lumps of evil."

 

That is incorrect. The scriptures teach we are all evil. We are all sinners.

 

 

As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

 

~Romans 3:10

 

Does this mean that we are programmed to be sinners? If so, then do you believe that we have free will? If you believe both of those things to be true, then explain how two contradictory ideas can both be factual.

 

 

To answer this question you first need to understand the diffrence between the two questions.

 

"Does this mean that we are programmed to be sinners"

 

Means we are born with the disire to rebel against God's morals.

 

 "If so, then do you believe that we have free will"

 

This means we can make a decision follow God or not to follow God.

 

As you can clearly see, these two ideas are not contradictory at all. One means one thing, the other means another.