yunea

Remind me again of the reasons behind "absolute right and wrong" questions

120 posts in this topic

I've pointed this out before, but before you even begin delving into absolutism as it applies to theology there is one very critical issue that MUST be understood before progressing further: Which is that belief in god doesn't actually provide you with any absolute sense of right or wrong that you didn't already have before.

 

As a human being, your comprehension of reality is subjective to your own understanding. Therefore any experience of a "God" is subjective to your own understanding. Therefore any sense of right or wrong gained from that "God" is STILL subjective to your own understanding. Similar to the reasons why you cannot disprove last Thursdayism, you also cannot prove that any experience of an "Objective source" is not also a part of last Thursdayism.

 

Whenever I see arguments like this, it becomes very clear very quickly that religious people seem to believe that believing in god somehow magically breaks them out of subjectivity prison. It does not. And understanding why it does not is mission critical to understanding any sort of objective/subjective argument from the perspective of theology and philosophy, otherwise you are arguing in circles from a faulty premise.

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A brilliant point Jedah - thanks.

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Is it reasonable to conclude that god is the creator?

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Not without sufficient evidence... not that that stops 2 billion people concluding in at least some sort of creator god.

 

And which god?

 

But that was all rhetorical right?... unless the question is to a christian... in which case the answer 99.985324% of the time is yes.

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3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Is it reasonable to conclude that god is the creator?

I didn't know we were popping in and out of the story...

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Obviously we are popping in and out of the story.  The only way to make any sense out of how the story relates to christianity is to guess at it, adding our own thoughts and interpretations.  Every conjecture is a departure from the story.

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37 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Obviously we are popping in and out of the story.  The only way to make any sense out of how the story relates to christianity is to guess at it, adding our own thoughts and interpretations.  Every conjecture is a departure from the story.

The story says God was the creator...you going to respond to post 97?

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Fair enough.  My response is "No."  I doesn't necessarily follow that just because god created us, we should follow his rules.  Especially given that he won't follow them himself.  I have the same issue with Redneck Jr.  That's what leadership through example is all about.

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16 hours ago, end3 said:

Why is it not reasonable to understand that If God is the creator of all  things, that it's his rules, not ours.  What really gives us any clout into his decisions.  If we are going down a new path of discussion, let's go here.  Do I have magical rights bc I was created?  That's different from born.

 

It would depend on what additional things you attribute to this God.  Assuming this God was the creator of all things, this doesn't automatically mean he would have created rules which could not be changed, replaced or improved by humans (or other sentient beings).  I can imagine a God who would encourage self-governance such as this.  So can you. 

 

You seem to want to add additional specific conditions beyond the creation events, and that's what imagination is for.

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8 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Fair enough.  My response is "No."  I doesn't necessarily follow that just because god created us, we should follow his rules.  Especially given that he won't follow them himself.  I have the same issue with Redneck Jr.  That's what leadership through example is all about.

No would be the correct answer imo.  I assume you guide RNJr and there are times when you don't explain things thoroughly because one, he won't comprehend, and two, he lacks wisdom, despite a relative morality...

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2 minutes ago, end3 said:

No would be the correct answer imo.  I assume you guide RNJr and there are times when you don't explain things thoroughly because one, he won't comprehend, and two, he lacks wisdom, despite a relative morality...

 

Which is surely why any responsible parent should lead by example.

When dealing with an inexperienced and naive innocent, surely you'd want them to learn from you by imitation, with understanding and wisdom coming later?

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

It would depend on what additional things you attribute to this God.  Assuming this God was the creator of all things, this doesn't automatically mean he would have created rules which could not be changed, replaced or improved by humans (or other sentient beings).  I can imagine a God who would encourage self-governance such as this.  So can you. 

 

You seem to want to add additional specific conditions beyond the creation events, and that's what imagination is for.

I would think that self governance with God would depend if one was governing with the same qualities and attempting to achieve the same goal God desires as an end goal for the experiment.  The question in my mind then would be, why would God put a sentient being in the mechanism.  Actually, this is a decent line of thought.  Why would I want a random generator in my process.....and one that constantly and progressively fucks itself as well.

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8 minutes ago, end3 said:

I would think that self governance with God would depend if one was governing with the same qualities and attempting to achieve the same goal God desires as an end goal for the experiment.  The question in my mind then would be, why would God put a sentient being in the mechanism.  Actually, this is a decent line of thought.  Why would I want a random generator in my process.....and one that constantly and progressively fucks itself as well.

 

If you desire to define your God with those character traits and purposes, have at it.

 

Isn't imagination great?

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3 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

If you desire to define your God with those character traits and purposes, have at it.

 

Isn't imagination great?

I was trying to put the pieces together.....the apparent times where God's mind was changed, yet changed by favored people if my memory is intact.....to achieve the same end goal.

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Just now, end3 said:

I was trying to put the pieces together.....the apparent times where God's mind was changed, yet changed by favored people if my memory is intact.....to achieve the same end goal.

Why would you want to do that?

 

I did that once with the Lord of the Rings story by asking the question, "Why didn't Frodo simply ride Gwaihir (the leader of the Great Eagles) from Hobbiton to Mount Doom in one non-stop flight"?

 

That took some of the fictional magic out of the story for me.

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3 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

Why would you want to do that?

 

I did that once with the Lord of the Rings story by asking the question, "Why didn't Frodo simply ride Gwaihir (the leader of the Great Eagles) from Hobbiton to Mount Doom in one non-stop flight"?

 

That took some of the fictional magic out of the story for me.

The story suggests an end goal of holy.  The creation ingredients would need to result in holy if this is in fact what God is aiming for.  In the mix he has humanity.  Ultimately, if the holy cake is not achieved with ALL the ingredients, the non-"body" ingredients will be thrown into the dump....  Sounds like a story I've heard.

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More than anything End3, Redneck Jr. needs to see me following my own rules; otherwise, there is no incentive for him to do so, and I simply become a hollow shell of hypocrisy.  I can threaten punishment all day for breaking them; but that would only lead Jr. to resentment of me.  That is always the end result of ruling through fear.  Do you still wonder why so many people hate god?  

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On 3/25/2017 at 0:42 AM, end3 said:

The good news is Prof, after awhile you get ok with your beliefs about all this.  You can see I joined here roughly nine years ago.  Glad I did.  Truly wishing everyone finds that for themselves.

 

 

Nine years, End?  

 

About eight for me.  

If memory serves, I recall that you were unsure and speculating a lot about God and the Bible when I showed up.  And looking at the speculating you've done recently, you still seem to be just as unsure about God and the Bible today as you were eight years ago.  Is that a fair summary?  

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28 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

Nine years, End?  

 

About eight for me.  

If memory serves, I recall that you were unsure and speculating a lot about God and the Bible when I showed up.  And looking at the speculating you've done recently, you still seem to be just as unsure about God and the Bible today as you were eight years ago.  Is that a fair summary?  

No, I think I was much more sure back then and then became increasingly less sure after coming here.  Now I'm back to comfortably sure.

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1 hour ago, end3 said:

No, I think I was much more sure back then and then became increasingly less sure after coming here.  Now I'm back to comfortably sure.

 

Comfortably sure about your faith in Christ, right?

 

But still speculating, guessing and surmising about how Christianity works?

 

Just as much now as nine years ago?

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