RHEMtron Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Simple question to Christians: Why are 97% of your quotes from Paul and not Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Simple question to Christians: Why are 97% of your quotes from Paul and not Jesus? Ahh - HA ... you took me up on it. Now, let's see if the literalists in our ranks bother to respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 where did 97% come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted July 18, 2006 Author Share Posted July 18, 2006 Open_Minded: hahaha yah damn skippy! This question needs to be answered!! Taylork45: Oh it was just an arbitrary number i came up with. In past discussions with "Christians", they generally defend themselves by quoting Paul, and not Jesus. In a more recent thread, freeday and K9 repeatedly quoted Paul, as oppose to our ex-c residents, who quoted Jesus. "Christians": Still waiting for the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Probably because the majority of the NT is written by Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 i think i qoute the gospels more often than not. where did this conclusion come from. and if so why would it matter, Paul was instramental in the devolopement of the early christian church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 i think i qoute the gospels more often than not. where did this conclusion come from. and if so why would it matter, Paul was instramental in the devolopement of the early christian church. In part its because Paul presented christianty in a different way than the gospels did. He institutionalized christianty. He also wasn't teribly honest. In several casses he misquotes the OT in order to make it look like the OT supported his ideas far more than it did. This was the central reason the jews rejected his message. His theology had a decidedly Greek feel too it instead of Jewish. And many of the letter atributed to him contradic themselves. 1st and 2nd Timothy for instance contradict many things the other letters say, which is why most scholars believe they were written by someone else. I think the whole point is that the christian tradition and church was created more by Paul than Jesus. After all, many of his letter Pre-date both the cannoical and non-cannoical gospels...with the posible excpetion of the gospel of Thomas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 i think i qoute the gospels more often than not. where did this conclusion come from. and if so why would it matter, Paul was instramental in the devolopement of the early christian church. i think you need to read your own thread that you started: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...c=10383&hl= Out of all your posts containing quotes from Paul and Jesus, here are the percentage results: Paul: ~84% Jesus: ~16% Now, tallying all your scriptural quotes, here are the results: Paul: ~45% Jesus: ~10% Other: ~45% Out of all your direct quotes, you quoted Jesus only once. To further my point, im going to attempt to read through all your posts and tally the results. <edit> So i guess i should rephrase the question for you.... Why do you quote everyone else except Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 Dont worry amy, i wasnt going there. Im addressing others who continually quote everyone else, especially Paul, and not Jesus. You dont defend Jesus and doctrines related to him by quoting Paul. All you would be doing is worshiping Paul and his words. IMO, a Christian should be following Jesus CHRIST, not Paul. Afterall, it's not Paulianity is it now? If youve been quoting Jesus, than i applaud you.... -Rhem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Dont worry amy, i wasnt going there. Im addressing others who continually quote everyone else, especially Paul, and not Jesus. You dont defend Jesus and doctrines related to him by quoting Paul. All you would be doing is worshiping Paul and his words. IMO, a Christian should be following Jesus CHRIST, not Paul. Afterall, it's not Paulianity is it now? If youve been quoting Jesus, than i applaud you.... -Rhem i don't always quote Jesus, but i thought i had paraphrased lots of his parables. regardless, when the cannon was composed, the people who did it, chose books that best reflected the values and teachings of christianity, thus i trust in his writings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 i don't always quote Jesus, but i thought i had paraphrased lots of his parables. Quoting his parables means youre quoting Jesus. He's the one narrarating the parables. Quoting the Gospels, usually means youre quoting Jesus. Now you say you dont always quote Jesus, but you also said: i think i qoute the gospels more often than not. Which is it? You always quote Jesus or not? regardless, when the cannon was composed, the people who did it, chose books that best reflected the values and teachings of christianity, thus i trust in his writings. So why do you need Paul, or other authors, to know Jesus and his teachings. Again, arent you supposed to be following Jesus and his teachings? Not what others say about him or say what your beliefs should be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 Welp. Amy marie, i actually went back quite a ways with your posts. I tallied based on all discussion references to Jesus. You actually did better than freeday. Here are the results so far: freeday: Jesus- ~10% Other- ~90% amy_maries: Jesus- ~22% Other- ~78% Either, you guys arent true followers of Jesus, or the life and teachings of Jesus arent as simple as you thought it was. You need someone else to tell you how to worship him and understand his teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I never counted up the verses, but when I was a Christian, a friend told me that Jesus talks about hell more than about heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 It will be interesting to see what the comfortable christians who come here consider to be the determining factors that define whether or not you are a real christian. Most of the faithful will simply give a definition of themselves. Whatever level of devotion that is. Whatever particular Baskin and Robbins flavor of the religion they happen to ascribe to. The words attributed to Jesus in Luke 14 cut the line pretty clearly: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. " "In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple". Of course, anytime we bring these passages up, we get the inevitable parade of apologetic justifications of why Jesus didn't really mean hate his own life. Jesus didn't really mean give up everything he has. Once again, you must properly interpret the passages that aren't there. If christians really want to be like Jesus, then let em sell everything they have, give it to the poor, sleep on the ground, and survive off of others' charity. No place to lay my head. That's what being a true christian is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 oh and amy marie... i just wanted to add that when i listed others, that included Paul, James, Peter, and YOU. You made references not to other authors, not even to the bible, but to your own creative works as a means to justify your beliefs. I thought that was pretty interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibby Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Hi guys. I have recently been reading the Gospel of John. Its been about twenty years since my deconversion. So reading it with fresh eyes has been quite revealing. To me reading this Gospel the whole essence of Jesus teachings seems to be to get people to not take things at surface value; to dig deeper and think about things. The jews who wrote this gospel I think were trying to get the jews to a deeper understanding of religion. Jesus heals on the Sabbath, breaking the literal law. Condemns the religious authorities of the day for their hypocrisy and, for obscuring deeper spiritual truths. Hangs out with all the wrong people, and women. The woman caught in adultery can't be judged by others because no one is perfect. Jesus talks about believing in him by obeying his teachings. WE DON,T have: The sinners prayer formula offered at the end of a church meeting/rally. (Does the gospel say that after his teaching sessions Jesus asked people to raise their hands and say a prayer to be saved?? How many would come forward if the preacher said, ,Sell what you own. Give to the poor. Then follow me.' ) God will make you rich if you tithe. Condemn gays; keep woman from being priests; start faith schools; teach creationism (and if you can,t do that then Intelligent Design will do); start wars in foreign countries; create a book called The Bible; shall I go on?? You get the picture. For followers of Jesus there is an awful lot of crap been brought in that Jesus NEVER said. Even justification by faith is on dodgy ground. "Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom. Only those who DO the will of the Father" "If you love me, you will keep my commands" As Jesus says , you know a tree by its fruit. And I think that some of the fruit of the christian church is a bit stinky and past its sell by date! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I'll quote other parts of the NT when they back up what Jesus said. But Jesus is the ONE that I prefer to talk about. I thought you knew that by now. Ugh. We know. We've seen the pictures you've made of your holy and passionate Loverjesus. PS: Can one of our talented artists come up with a beautiful and "romantic" depiction of a woman in the passionate embrace of the Flying Spaghetti Monster with his noodly appendages caressing her all over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibby Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I do believe He spoke other things through Paul. There are times when Paul says in his letters that he is speaking his own opinion but Christ does give some beautiful revelation through Paul. So Paul "channeled" Jesus? When does Jesus speak through Paul? And on what do you base this assumption? I'll quote other parts of the NT when they back up what Jesus said So there are other bits that don,t back up what Jesus said then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 freeday: Jesus- ~10% Other- ~90% amy_maries: Jesus- ~22% Other- ~78% Damn Rhem, You sure got my respect for being so persistent and actually go back and count each quote... Wow! Impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibby Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 . Do you agree with the verse that says. "All things that were created were created by Him (Christ) and there was not one thing made that was not made without Him." Iohn 1:2 No. I don,t agree, if you mean the person of Jesus. Yes, if you mean the Logos... which is a term from the ancient greek philosophers. I refer you again to John 15 "Apart from Me you can do nothing. We can't be more Christ like if we are not untited to the Vine, Christ Himself. This is clearly not the case if taken literally. Plenty of people have done loving, kind things for people without any reference to Jesus or Christianity. Bob Geldoff organised Live Aid to help the starving in Africa without being "helpless" without Jesus. I look forward to your reply about my previous comments concerning Jesus and Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 This is clearly not the case if taken literally. Plenty of people have done loving, kind things for people without any reference to Jesus or Christianity. Bob Geldoff organised Live Aid to help the starving in Africa without being "helpless" without Jesus. And Bill Gates: Bill Gates is an Agnostc (or maybe even Atheist) Bill Gates Microsoft Cofounder and CEO, was interviewed November 1995 on PBS by David Frost. Below is the transcript with minor edits. Frost: Do you believe in the Sermon on the Mount? Gates: I don't. I'm not somebody who goes to church on a regular basis. The specific elements of Christianity are not something I'm a huge believer in. There's a lot of merit in the moral aspects of religion. I think it can have a very, very positive impact. Frost: I sometimes say to people, do you believe there is a god, or do you know there is a god? And, you'd say you don't know? Gates: In terms of doing things I take a fairly scientific approach to why things happen and how they happen. I don't know if there's a god or not, but I think religious principles are quite valid. Gates was profiled by Walter Isaacson in a January 13, 1996 TIME MAGAZINE cover story. Here are some excerpts compiled by the Drudge Report: Isaacson: Isn't there something special, perhaps even divine, about the human soul? Gates: I don't have any evidence on that. “Gates face suddenly becomes expressionless,” writes Isaacson, "his squeaky voice turns toneless, and he folds his arms across his belly and vigorously rocks back and forth in a mannerism that has become so mimicked at MICROSOFT that a meeting there can resemble a round table of ecstatic rabbis." Gates: Just in terms of allocation of time resources, religion is not very efficient. There's a lot more I could be doing on a Sunday morning. And now he will quit Microsoft to work fulltime to help the world Another effect of Gates' wealth was a surprising realpolitik assessment. Through The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, the philanthropic organization he started with his wife, the billionaire has inarguably done enormous good throughout the world, supporting educational, medical and relief efforts in some of the world's poorest areas--and hasn't forgotten the needy back home in the U.S. Thus, the quasi-philosophical debate still rages: Who has done more good for the world, Gates--or Mother Teresa? (snip) As to why Gates is leaving: He said he's making the move in order to spend more time on his global health and education work at the foundation. Microsoft's loss just might be the world's gain. Beat that. --edit-- I didn't use to like Bill Gates so much, but now I consider him a hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubilant Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Jesus heals on the Sabbath, breaking the literal law. Condemns the religious authorities of the day for their hypocrisy and, for obscuring deeper spiritual truths. Hangs out with all the wrong people, and women. The woman caught in adultery can't be judged by others because no one is perfect.[/qoute] Yes!!!! You have to love a Guy like that! Well, well, here we have a Christian hootin' and hollerin' that Jesus broke the laws as set forth by the Old Testament... how pray tell is it then that Jesus is sinless? So much for the perfect, spotless, sacrificial lamb. Amy, you really need to read and understand the Old Testament because it is so apparent that you haven't got a freakin' clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 freeday: Jesus- ~10% Other- ~90% amy_maries: Jesus- ~22% Other- ~78% Damn Rhem, You sure got my respect for being so persistent and actually go back and count each quote... Wow! Impressive. haha... when i make a point, im dead serious about it. besides... in college i was a science major. im well trained at performing long, boring, monotonous, research work <edit> Here's a neutral question because i honestly dont know: Where in the bible does Jesus explicitly say he was a sinless individual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 It will be interesting to see what the comfortable christians who come here consider to be the determining factors that define whether or not you are a real christian. Most of the faithful will simply give a definition of themselves. Whatever level of devotion that is. Whatever particular Baskin and Robbins flavor of the religion they happen to ascribe to. The words attributed to Jesus in Luke 14 cut the line pretty clearly: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. " "In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple". Of course, anytime we bring these passages up, we get the inevitable parade of apologetic justifications of why Jesus didn't really mean hate his own life. Jesus didn't really mean give up everything he has. Once again, you must properly interpret the passages that aren't there. If christians really want to be like Jesus, then let em sell everything they have, give it to the poor, sleep on the ground, and survive off of others' charity. No place to lay my head. That's what being a true christian is about. i looked a wiki and it give a very good definition of what constitutes a christian. "A Christian is a follower of Jesus, whom they regard as the Christ. Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God, who lived a life befitting that of the creator of the universe, free of sin, and at the end of his earthly life was crucified, and then on the third day after death rose from the dead, to give the message to his followers." this is what being a christian is about. having faith. freeday: Jesus- ~10% Other- ~90% amy_maries: Jesus- ~22% Other- ~78% Damn Rhem, You sure got my respect for being so persistent and actually go back and count each quote... Wow! Impressive. i concurr, i will try to qoute the gospels more often now because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 i concurr, i will try to qoute the gospels more often now because of this. coooOOOOoool!! another reason why i brought up this point is because ive been in, and seen many discussions concerning Jesus' teachings. we're quoting Jesus, and the other person is quoting someone else. then the other person claims to be right on what Jesus' teachings are. this baffles me because we're the ones quoting Jesus directly. glad to hear youll be quoting Jesus more often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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