Ladyfractal Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 And I try not to get sucked in by collectivist mentalities...one of the most common mentality is the "guilt trip" for social or moral responsibilty...whatever the fuck that is, because i'm not making a show about being up in arms about some social cause. So what's the difference between a guilt trip for social responsibility and a legitimate cause, Zoe? Do you have an operational definition for them? You are certainly free to not care but how far does that get you? And to me, injustice is injustice. If you are beaten or murdered, it is tragic no matter the cause. People hurt other people. People hurt other people for stupid reasons. But to me, organizing only gives a false veneer of safety and security to everyone. Take a social movement, let's say the civil rights movement *before* 1970. What would your prescription have been? Continue the status quo? It can be really compelling to hear these big issues that have to be addressed...but that's when you just look at that one issue. There are hundreds of similar type issues...for all kinds of special groups. If I'm protesting and marching for the gay people, what about the starving children in africa? If I'm feeding them, what about women's rights? If I'm working on women's rights, what about racial discrimination? The list of possible causes to get involved in goes on and on and on. So most people...who get involved in a cause, get involved in their own cause...something that will affect them. This is actually a bit of reductio ad absurdum argument. I study biology, well what about physics? Or history? Or geology? Or Economics? Do you see the problem with your argument? You are saying that if you care about *one* issue you should care about them all--but no one actually lives like that. I *care* about a number of issues, I *work* (volunteer) on two--digital divide and science literacy. Does that mean I don't care about gay rights? No, it doesn't--I did my time in the movement and now work on something else. Does that mean I don't care about feminism? No, but I can--in my estimation--do *more* mentoring young women interested in computers and science than I can doing some other form of feminist organizing. For me...something that might directly affect me might be the women's movement. But wouldn't it make more sense for me to take care of my own needs, rather than trying to join some big monolithic group to fight for changes for women? (not that I think women really have much left to gripe about as a group.) I would qualify that statement that middle-class (white) women don't have much left to gripe about as a group but that does not apply to working class women at all. I'm curious, is there any situation where you can imagine being motivated to work on the behalf of others that are not connected to you personally? Cheers lf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladyfractal Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I don't expect you to understand what motivates me or how I think. I don't expect you to become like me. I don't think you are "less" anything if you don't. But you seem to feel that i'm less "moral" than you simply because I do not trouble myself with the rest of the fucking universe's issues. Why exactly is that? (and if i'm misreading you...if you don't feel you are more "moral" than me...please let me know.) You are fighting a phantom here, Zoe. Whatever personal issues you have as far as this is concerned, they are yours and yours alone. I have not said nor have I implied that I am any more or less moral than you because your morality does not concern me over-much. What I am trying to do is understand the position you are coming from because it is a fundamentally different position than the one I come from. I think you mistake me for some other kind of poster, someone who engages in personal attacks of some sort, even if veiled. As a rule I eschew those kinds of tactics because they have no place in any kind of reasonable dialogue and I am only interested in reasonable dialogues. I don't 'feel' anything about you, Zoe. There is exactly one person on this board that I have any feelings for at all and barring some very strange occurances, that will continue to be the case--that is Greygirl and, quite honestly, there is a wall of separation I keep with her on this board. We are on two different message boards together--when there I am not her girlfriend, she is another poster and should she ever say something that I disagree with or find internally incoherent she will have the same kind of response I would give to *anyone*. That is what it means, to me, to be a fair-minded debater whatever personal feelings I may have toward anyone--good or ill--are put to the side. So your statement that I feel you are less moral than I is coming from within your *own* head. When I asked if there was any issue that would motivate you, I was asking a very honest question that has nothing to do with morality. When I have an opinion about *You* Zoe, that I feel is sufficiently justified to bring into a discussion you will not have to guess what it is, I will let you know it in no uncertain terms. Cheers lf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Lady Fractal, Lemmie step up here and offer you a big THANKS for your time mentoring and helping empower your "nerd replacements'. Nothing more important a thing we olders can do is pass along the bit of knowledge we've got to the up and coming kids who eventually should be trained well, be knowledgeable, ready to go, job wise. Time spent today with kids? Who knows how it will pay off in future? We are 100% certain of failure if we don't mentor. When we do in what we love, and there are willing minds to absorb it, we may never see *the end*.. It is a good thing you do. kFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladyfractal Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Lady Fractal, Lemmie step up here and offer you a big THANKS for your time mentoring and helping empower your "nerd replacements'. Nothing more important a thing we olders can do is pass along the bit of knowledge we've got to the up and coming kids who eventually should be trained well, be knowledgeable, ready to go, job wise. Time spent today with kids? Who knows how it will pay off in future? We are 100% certain of failure if we don't mentor. When we do in what we love, and there are willing minds to absorb it, we may never see *the end*.. It is a good thing you do. kFL Thanks kindly, nivek. I do appreciate it. I grew up with a couple of teachers and consider education the well-spring from which all the rest of our attempts at being civilized flow from. Cheers lf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladyfractal Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 A girl after my own heart...where you could have said: "nope, wasn't judging you" you wrote me a novel. I do try. Glad we're on the same page, Zoe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NobleSavage Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 What is additionally puzzling for me at this site, is the fact that everyone here claims to be Ex-Christian, but some of them retain certain Christian attitudes, especially concerning gay people. I think they just don't recognize all the baggage they're still carrying around. This is only true of a few people, but you can see it clearly if you have eyes to see. Although I believe that the Judeo-Christian-Islamic faiths are largely responsible for the anti-gay taboo (based on my observations that the pagans seems better adjusted), the influence of these religions is so pervasive in our society that even those who don't (or no longer) subscribe to these faiths will still be influenced by them. Most of my friends are what I would call "mildly homophobic" despite being atheists and agnostics. They're not exactly hateful but still clearly uncomfortable with the concept. They know I'm bisexual and the peace is largely maintained by keeping this a forbiddon topic of discussion. I hadn't exactly escaped the influence despite the fact that I've never been either religious or a conformist. It wasn't until recent years that I even discovered I was a repressed bisexual. I'll never forget the overwhelming feeling of shame I had at the time. It took several months to overcome it completely (and that was without any fear that God was going to punish me, send me to hell or any of that crap, this was purely societal pressure that I felt). From what I've gathered, my story isn't unusual among bisexuals. Since we're attracted to the opposite gender, blending into het society is a simple matter of keeping that other side bottled up. Had I married Heather at age 26, I'd have likely never discovered my true nature. It makes me wonder how many repressed bi's there are out there. My theory is that once the taboos against same-gender love come down, that we'll discover that what we call "bisexuality" is far more common than anyone currently suspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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