Wow. Just.. Ugh.

[Ouroboros]

Oh, I remember back in Sweden, to go to MacDonalds with my kids was a big thing. I could afford it about once a month. We once or twice a year went to a restaurant.

 

The smalles mac meal costed 35 kronor, and I think the dollar was at 1:5, so it would make about $7, for the cheapest one, in 1995. Here it costs 2-3 dollars today.

 

Gas were 8 kronor liter, so that would make about $1/l, and there's about 4 liter/gallon, so it comes out to $4-5/gallon (still 1995).

 

I was paying 9-10% interest on the house and yet paid luxury tax for owning my own home.

 

My problem was that I managed to time most of the things completely wrong. I bought a house in 91, just before the bank/margin loans went up to 500% and I had to pay more in interest for my house than I was making. We moved at the time when house market crashed and we didn't get what we had loan for. I started my own company just before they announced a new company tax to make sure no one used companies to circumvent tax laws (which was one of the reasons I did it). It was all just really bad timing on my part, and I know friends that have done much better than I did, just by being lucky of starting company or bying a house at the right times.

[chefranden]

Photo Essay: Making room for a Mall

[woodsmoke]

Tax dollars at work:

 

http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-0203.html

 

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Budget/bg1763.cfm

 

Oops, guess this is getting a little off Woody's topic.

 

Not at all, I'm fascinated with the direction this thread is taking. Since Asimov took the errant wind out of my sails by making a distinction between free-market and anarcho-capitalism, and the subsequent realization that (for all I still may not agree with it entirely) I should have been aiming not necessarily at capitalism but Libertarians, I just haven't had much to say. I'm eagerly reading along with the thread, though.

 

New perspectives and information galore; it's beautiful!

[Vigile]

 

Hans, your comments about Sweden confuse me a bit. I haven't been there, but have been to Finland quite a number of times since they are my neighbors. Finland also has a socialist government, which is, I believe similar to Swedens, though not quite as comprehensive.

 

Finns don't appear to be any worse for the wear. In fact, Helsinki is as vibrant as any wealthy US city I've been to/lived in. The restaurants are full, the malls are burgeoning, the cars on the road are all new. Finns don't look at all like they can't even afford a hamburger at McD's.

[Valgeir]

Perhaps unionization could take care of monopolies and minimum wage, but what about issues like food or medicine quality, or the quality of education?

[Ouroboros]

Finland does not have the same heavy taxation. Sweden was the a big experiment for new taxes since the early 20th century. I even think Sweden was one of the first countries to have sales tax (MOMS).

 

None of my siblings or parents have new cars. They're at least 3-5 years old or older.

 

But I'm not kidding about the price of the burger or sales taxes, or the gas price. Those are the prices I did pay. It might be different now. I should contact my brother to check exactly the current numbers on income, tax, gas, sales tax etc.

 

I don't know why you don't believe me, really, I don't care if you do or not. Believe what you want.

 

--edit--

 

Since I base my numbers on 10+ years, I just sent an email to my brother to get updated numbers.

[Vigile]

Hans, it's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I'm trying to uncover whether your personal experiences are representative of the larger Swedish population or whether you may be an anomoly. I have no reason to doubt your word.

 

Your point about taxation brings to mind the country of Holand. I believe they have a similar tax structure. They have attempted to overtax the wealthy in order to even out society. Essentially, they are trying to establish a strong middle class and rid the wide gap between rich and poor.

 

It doesn't seem to have hurt their economy much. In fact the Dutch are one of the largest owers of multi nationals in the world. You can't turn a circle in the US without running into a Dutch owned and run company. I have a number of clients from Holand, so I know that at least some of them have enough disposable income to invest in the stock market.

 

Again, I'm not disputing your claims about Sweden, just trying to dig info from you. Perhaps Sweden's problems that you mention are more due to governmental mismanagment and not necessarily correlated to the socialst government they have established. The Dutch experience seems to me to raise a rather large question in this regard.

 

Sorry if I offended you. I should just use more smilies I guess to get my true intention across. A lot of times words alone don't betray true intentions.

 

Oh, speaking of gas tax, I just talked to my neighbor, who is from the UK. He said they are now paying $10/gallon. It costs $20 to get a permit to drive into London for the day and they are going to start to levy the same tax on other major cities this year. I guess I don't have a problem with this if they use the taxes to improve public transit. He said it goes into the general coffers though. Since gas is elastic, they can charge $20/gallon and driving wouldn't decrease all that much. People would just stop spending in other areas.

[Casey]

I was paying 9-10% interest on the house and yet paid luxury tax for owning my own home.

 

Now that's a bit greedy of the powers that be! If you have a mortgage, you don't own your house, the bank does. So if anyone ought to be paying luxury tax, it ought to be the bank.

Casey

[Ouroboros]

Hans, it's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I'm trying to uncover whether your personal experiences are representative of the larger Swedish population or whether you may be an anomoly. I have no reason to doubt your word.

No hard feelings. And I do think I was a bit of an anomaly, because I managed to do the wrong things at the wrong times (which would really come out as the right thing... ), I have friends that are doing pretty well over there, but I know they can because they know how to work the system. I was never good in finding the smart ways of avoiding tax. For instance, the reason I paid 67% in tax was that I had a company, but it was a private owned and not incorporated. So my tax included the company tax. Normally I would have paid only 50-55% on income tax, but then the company I would work for would still pay 20% in top of my salary. (Similar to FICA and other social fees)

 

Your point about taxation brings to mind the country of Holand. I believe they have a similar tax structure. They have attempted to overtax the wealthy in order to even out society. Essentially, they are trying to establish a strong middle class and rid the wide gap between rich and poor.

I don't doubt there are countries that have done better, and Sweden is not doing bad overall, just that it doesn't fit my style or how I want to live. For me it is important that I control as much of my money that I can, and not someone else.

[Asimov]

Perhaps unionization could take care of monopolies and minimum wage, but what about issues like food or medicine quality, or the quality of education?

 

 

Well, I would think that if you advertise certain foods and medicine to do certain things, yet they do something different than what you advertise, or if you don't put warning labels on things then you are being dishonest. Dishonesty can't be allowed in any business or emotional relationship, much like murder or theft.

 

As long as they are offering what they advertise, I don't see a problem.

[Valgeir]

You can't be certain they are. You can't be certain that your food is being handled properly, or you're getting quality medication. And, with patents, certain kinds of medication can only be manufactured by certain companies, so if they feel like hiking prices up and watering down the product, I guess we'd just have to live (or die) with it?

[Ouroboros]

Now that's a bit greedy of the powers that be! If you have a mortgage, you don't own your house, the bank does. So if anyone ought to be paying luxury tax, it ought to be the bank.

Casey

Haha... very good point. Unfortunately socialism doesn't see it that way.

 

I built a deck to my house and had to pay luxury tax for it.

[Asimov]

You can't be certain they are. You can't be certain that your food is being handled properly, or you're getting quality medication. And, with patents, certain kinds of medication can only be manufactured by certain companies, so if they feel like hiking prices up and watering down the product, I guess we'd just have to live (or die) with it?

 

Of course you can't be "certain". You can't be certain now, even with the FDA. We just had a case on Vancouver Island where a woman bought medication online and she died. There was also a big recall of dog food, where pets were dying.

 

Not to mention hormones in meat, abuse of animals in farms, dog food not being high quality, mcdonalds. If they hike prices up and people still pay for it, that's their problem. A company will keep going as long as it's making a profit.

 

There are a lot of things I can't afford and I live with it.

[Valgeir]

Yes, you can't be entirely certain, but there are a lot of regulations and laws in play on those things. I don't doubt for a tenth of a second that they make a big difference. Cf. food industry prior to Upton Sinclair in the U.S., food industry now.

[Asimov]

Yes, you can't be entirely certain, but there are a lot of regulations and laws in play on those things. I don't doubt for a tenth of a second that they make a big difference. Cf. food industry prior to Upton Sinclair in the U.S., food industry now.

 

 

If someone disputes the quality of food, then a private company that does health inspection can inspect food quality.

[Valgeir]

Private companies can be bought out far easier than even the government- they have no one to be accountable to other than the shareholders.

[Asimov]

Private companies can be bought out far easier than even the government- they have no one to be accountable to other than the shareholders.

 

Again an issue of honesty.

[Valgeir]

True, but it's still an issue that needs to be accounted for.

[woodsmoke]

I think that's the real issue here. Corporate integrity.

 

I trust most people to be honest and ethical and live my life on the (sometimes foolish) assumption they will be. Usually, it works out.

 

Big corporations, however, are not people. They're faceless entities which exist for the sole purpose of producing profit. They have no conscience, and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw their largest employee. Just like government (or any other large organization), with big business comes bureaucracy, and with bureaucracy comes corruption.

 

You know, scratch that first line. I think the real issue here (for me) is actually scale. I'm willing to trust the local business owner to be honest because (s)he lives in my community. Her/His customers know her/him personally, and if (s)he undercuts her/his customers in some way, it's going to come back to bite her/him in the ass real quick and in a very real way. To the CEO of a large corporation, however, I'm nothing more than a dollar sign; and it's an unfortunate reality of the psychology of all conscious living beings that we're far more likely (willing, even) to screw over someone we don't know if it will benefit us in some way.

 

It's along the same vein as my cynicism toward the modern nation state as a hopelessly inefficient social institution because it's just too fucking big.

[Amethyst]

I think that's the real issue here. Corporate integrity.

 

I trust most people to be honest and ethical and live my life on the (sometimes foolish) assumption they will be. Usually, it works out.

 

Big corporations, however, are not people. They're faceless entities which exist for the sole purpose of producing profit. They have no conscience, and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw their largest employee. Just like government (or any other large organization), with big business comes bureaucracy, and with bureaucracy comes corruption.

 

Gotta agree with you. I think most people are ethical, but corporations are not people. Not to mention, when one gets to the upper eschelons of power in a corporation, it's just too easy to abuse that power. Sure, they got the Enron people but who knows how many more are getting away with it? Even something like bullying employees becomes easier the higher up someone gets. The more power the big wigs have, the less chance there is that some courageous underling is willing to speak up against them.

[Asimov]

True, but it's still an issue that needs to be accounted for.

 

Of course it is, and with any issue of dishonesty as a company relates to the public we have the government to protect, police and mediate.

[Valgeir]

I can't really think of a way to ask this that doesn't sound sarcastic, so let me just preface it with the disclaimer that I'm not being facetious. You mean, then, that with regards to ensuring a company is delivering what it advertises, the government may be involved?

[Asimov]

I can't really think of a way to ask this that doesn't sound sarcastic, so let me just preface it with the disclaimer that I'm not being facetious. You mean, then, that with regards to ensuring a company is delivering what it advertises, the government may be involved?

 

Of course, any aspect of policing and protection. I just don't support the government itself owning businesses, or regulating the market itself.

 

That would include

 

1) Owning any services that are government owned.

2) Imposing taxation on the importation and exportation of goods.

3) Limiting the importation and exportation of goods.

4) Banning goods or prohibiting the sale of goods.

[Vigile]

Woody, do a Google video search for "the corporation." They outline how a corporation is not only amoral, but actually act like a sociopath. It's slightly over the top, but not so much so that you can't garner some valuable info from it.

[Valgeir]

Asimov, if that is the basis of your system then I think I can support it.