Dave Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Okay, bear with me here. Dave VanAllen is the webmaster who is an ex-christian atheist and signs in as "webmaster". Memeber Dave is a non-ex-christian atheist with a whirly humanist emblem who is not at all related to the webmaster. Correct. Is that right? I'm confused. But then which Dave was Woodsmoke talking about? I assume the webmaster, since he mentioned "Dave's house". But I'm not sure. All this Daveness is confusing. "Dave's not here......" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I think there is three (3) positions of an Atheist:1) I don't know and I don't believe there is a god 2) I don't know but I believe there is no god 3) I know there is no god Your forgot the 4th one, which should actually be #1; Lack of belief in gods. After that there would be 3 sub groups that would be the personal opinion of the Atheist and not part of the definition of Atheism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 When in a war, words are important. Fuzzy words like 'belief' and 'faith' give succour to those looking for chinks in armour. I know how to use the words, and will use them in speech. However, when dealing with religion one has to be precise... Exactly. It is a very common argument used by christians that a belief in their god is the same as a belief in science. To them the word 'belief' has the exact same meaning as a religious style 'faith'. It is their attempt to bring science down to their level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I think there is three (3) positions of an Atheist:1) I don't know and I don't believe there is a god 2) I don't know but I believe there is no god 3) I know there is no god Your forgot the 4th one, which should actually be #1; Lack of belief in gods. After that there would be 3 sub groups that would be the personal opinion of the Atheist and not part of the definition of Atheism. Doesn't "I don't believe there is a god" the same as "I lack belief there is a god"? Or do you mean the #1 should be "I don't care if I know if there is a god, and I don't believe there is a god"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Is it belief... something you've invested yourself in, or just a firm opinion... THe usage means that some fundy can say 'You have faith in men...' and quote the babble at you... the word opinion leaves them nowhere to go on faith... However, you don't like the idea, fine... don't use it. I'm not sure what you mean. I didn't propose not to use the word, I'm the one proposing to use the word "belief", and understand the whole concept and definition of it. Here's an exceprt from Wikipedia about Knowledge: The definition of knowledge is a live debate for philosophers. The classical definition, found in (although not ultimately endorsed by) Plato[1], has it that in order for there to be knowledge at least three criteria must be fulfilled; that in order to count as knowledge, a statement must be justified, true, and believed. Some claim that these conditions are not sufficient, as Gettier case examples allegedly demonstrate. There are a number of alternatives proposed, including Robert Nozick's arguments for a requirement that knowledge 'tracks the truth' and Simon Blackburn's additional requirement that we do not want to say that those who meet any of these conditions 'through a defect, flaw, or failure' have knowledge. Richard Kirkham suggests that our definition of knowledge requires that the believer's evidence is such that it logically necessitates the truth of the belief. Notice how much "belief" is part of "knowledge"? It is one of the three (or more) basics for something to be "known". It has to be believed, and be justified as such. So when we say that "we don't believe anything what-so-ever", we are fooling ourselves, because we do believe in order to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 When in a war, words are important. Fuzzy words like 'belief' and 'faith' give succour to those looking for chinks in armour. I know how to use the words, and will use them in speech. However, when dealing with religion one has to be precise... Exactly. It is a very common argument used by christians that a belief in their god is the same as a belief in science. To them the word 'belief' has the exact same meaning as a religious style 'faith'. It is their attempt to bring science down to their level. And I don't have a problem with them doing that, because their belief is unjustified and can be argued as such, while science is a justified belief and strongly supported by evidence. I prefer to meet them on their level and take them on a journey of reason and logic. And again, I think you are the one mixing up the definition of belief with the definition of faith. Look up the words faith, trust, belief and opinion and you might get the hint on how they relate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Doesn't "I don't believe there is a god" the same as "I lack belief there is a god"? No. It's a subtle difference. One is a statement and the other is a lack of something. Or do you mean the #1 should be "I don't care if I know if there is a god, and I don't believe there is a god"? No, it should be just plain "lack of belief." No matter what personal opinion the person holds, no matter what they say, no matter how they arrived at the position, the one feature that ALL Atheists have in common is a lack of belief in gods. Why not unite all Atheists under that umbrella instead of splitting them up into warring little divisions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 And I don't have a problem with them doing that, because their belief is unjustified and can be argued as such, while science is a justified belief and strongly supported by evidence. I prefer to meet them on their level and take them on a journey of reason and logic. And again, I think you are the one mixing up the definition of belief with the definition of faith. Look up the words faith, trust, belief and opinion and you might get the hint on how they relate. The thing is that they cannot be taken on a journey of reason. They want belief, not reason. They take that form of belief and apply it to stuff like evolution and claim it is a belief, just like their god belief, and try to force their god belief into our schools on an equal footing with science. It's not one individual we're talking about here, it's hundreds of millions of them. You can take a few on the fringe on your journey, but the majority are protected by the herd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Oops, I see the belief problem has been taken care of. LOL, I want to throw a little wrench into this mix! Yes, I feel mean today. I think the root word for believe can go back to the German word galaubjan "to hold dear". Something that someone holds dear seems to be not so open to the truth. On the other hand, doesn't faith come from the Latin 'fides' which means trust, reliance and confidence. The Latin has a word for religious faith 'religio' meaning faith, relgious belief, reverence for the gods. This seems to say that faith is more open to the truth than belief is. Belief seems to imply that in one's fervent hope, the truth could pass them by. Is it any wonder this discussion of the two words could go on and on? The two words are almost interchangeable which causes a lot of problems to the one using the word. But, we have to use a word to somewhat describe what we mean. I usually use the word belief and believe myself like Hans does. It doesn't mean that I can't change my mind about something. I also have faith at certain times to. All it takes is to look at the person saying it and you know what they mean, IMO. (Jubilant...this wasn't really addressed to you, just in general to the conversation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Doesn't "I don't believe there is a god" the same as "I lack belief there is a god"? No. It's a subtle difference. One is a statement and the other is a lack of something. Or do you mean the #1 should be "I don't care if I know if there is a god, and I don't believe there is a god"? No, it should be just plain "lack of belief." No matter what personal opinion the person holds, no matter what they say, no matter how they arrived at the position, the one feature that ALL Atheists have in common is a lack of belief in gods. Why not unite all Atheists under that umbrella instead of splitting them up into warring little divisions? Well, there we have different opinions. I think they are the same. To "not believe" to me is the same as "lack of belief". I don't have an apple is the same as lacking an apple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 The thing is that they cannot be taken on a journey of reason. They want belief, not reason. They take that form of belief and apply it to stuff like evolution and claim it is a belief, just like their god belief, and try to force their god belief into our schools on an equal footing with science. It's not one individual we're talking about here, it's hundreds of millions of them. You can take a few on the fringe on your journey, but the majority are protected by the herd. Can't really agree there either. We have many ex-christians that have gone the journey from Christiant to Ex-Christians because of logic, reason, study and debate. So either we have to deny their testimonies or it is true that some Christians can be argued away from belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Don't confuse religious belief with colloqial or common belief. Religious belief is always based on the poor evidence and that you take things for granted without proof, while the common belief is usually based on some evidence. Yet, we do not have 100% support for everything we have opinions about. I have opinions about global warming, but honestly I do not have all evidence that's needed for me to know this or that about it. I see correlations but very little contingency, so I believe certain things, but I do not know for sure. Why are you so afraid of using the word "belief"? We shouldn't let religion steal our language and twist it and force us to abandond words that are useful and meaningful, as long as we know how to use them. Should we let religion win but taking over the use of language? Then in the end, we will lose the ability to communicate with them and each other. Use words, but understand how they can be used. Indeed. The person using the word should be proof enough by what is meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Fair enough. But some of us are less certain. No sane, adult human being honestly believes that Superman or the Easter Bunny exist, and no-one has ever made any serious intellectual argument that they have. That is definitely not similar to claims about the existence of God or gods. How is it different logically? It's only considered "different" because some people think of it as different, but logically, there is no difference. I think the only reason it's different is that it's still a carry-over from intergenerational brainwashing. When that finally stops, and mankind learns to solve its problems without quick fixes and crutches, the god myth will be thought of as similar to the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus myths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Can't really agree there either. We have many ex-christians that have gone the journey from Christiant to Ex-Christians because of logic, reason, study and debate. So either we have to deny their testimonies or it is true that some Christians can be argued away from belief. Those were part of the reasons why I eventually deconverted. A big part, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Can't really agree there either. We have many ex-christians that have gone the journey from Christiant to Ex-Christians because of logic, reason, study and debate. So either we have to deny their testimonies or it is true that some Christians can be argued away from belief. Yes, there are many here that have made the journey up from a deep religious belief. That makes a few hundred out of 250 million? They, I mean the majority, can't be reasoned out of their religion. It's going to take decades of education starting with early childhood education to loosen the grip religions has on our society.... and the christians aren't about to let that happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Yes, there are many here that have made the journey up from a deep religious belief. That makes a few hundred out of 250 million? They, I mean the majority, can't be reasoned out of their religion. It's going to take decades of education starting with early childhood education to loosen the grip religions has on our society.... and the christians aren't about to let that happen. I think they will once the fundies die from old age. The fundies tend to be baby boomer and older. I've met very few fundies in their 20's and 30's. Those who I did meet were either going to Christian colleges, got into campus crusade, or their parents were fundies, and they just never got the courage to start thinking differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 This is why Priests take epistemology... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Yes, there are many here that have made the journey up from a deep religious belief. That makes a few hundred out of 250 million? They, I mean the majority, can't be reasoned out of their religion. It's going to take decades of education starting with early childhood education to loosen the grip religions has on our society.... and the Christians aren't about to let that happen. When it comes to take 250 million people out of their delusional beliefs, I have very little hope. You won't find much faith or belief there in me. I pretty much think humanity is screwed and will never get out from the virus... call me a pessimist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Better to be cheerfully pessimistic than deluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Better to be cheerfully pessimistic than deluded. Almond to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I think they will once the fundies die from old age. The fundies tend to be baby boomer and older. I've met very few fundies in their 20's and 30's. It seems to me they just keep breeding..... but I hope you're right on this. I don't think our society can hold out much longer. Those who I did meet were either going to Christian colleges, got into campus crusade, or their parents were fundies, and they just never got the courage to start thinking differently. It's scary. They have their own little world and they're not allowed outside of it. They only way that can progress is along the lines of fundamental Islam. That's not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 When it comes to take 250 million people out of their delusional beliefs, I have very little hope. You won't find much faith or belief there in me. I pretty much think humanity is screwed and will never get out from the virus... call me a pessimist. Or realist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 I think they will once the fundies die from old age. The fundies tend to be baby boomer and older. I've met very few fundies in their 20's and 30's. It seems to me they just keep breeding..... but I hope you're right on this. I don't think our society can hold out much longer. Those who I did meet were either going to Christian colleges, got into campus crusade, or their parents were fundies, and they just never got the courage to start thinking differently. It's scary. They have their own little world and they're not allowed outside of it. They only way that can progress is along the lines of fundamental Islam. That's not good. I can't think of people I'd like to see blow themselves up better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 When it comes to take 250 million people out of their delusional beliefs, I have very little hope. You won't find much faith or belief there in me. I pretty much think humanity is screwed and will never get out from the virus... call me a pessimist. Or realist? Oops! Did we land in the "agreed upon 50% zone" by accident? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 Oops! Did we land in the "agreed upon 50% zone" by accident? It was a fluke..... Fluke? What the F does a part of an anchor, a whale's tail, or a type of worm, have to do with something being a stroke of luck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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