Funny, I've Always Believed Most Of What You Do...

[pitchu]

See my post about religionists and their essential similarity to active junkies...

I did. I read it twice.

 

I see it as the analogy one might use who has formed a general opinion without specific experience.

 

Specifically, my husband, son, best friend, and collaborators in work are neither like tapeworms nor junkies, and would no sooner leave me in the street to die than they would... well... leave you in the street to die, Gramps -- even knowing you despise them.

 

But I wouldn't expect my experience with Jews to dislodge your opinion of them... nor, sadly, would they expect such a thing. Their experiences have taught them not to.

[Dhampir]

So long as you don't pull a SpaceFalcon on us, I can't see any good* reason to open the shed and dust off the torches and pitchforks.

I must not have been around at that particular moment in time, or perhaps I've just blanked it out. I knew that SF had withdrawn his membership some time ago, but what exactly did he do that would prompt that comment?

[a skeptical believer]

My father^* and I agreed on very little, so, I've pretty well formed my own opinions about the religious agenda... It's like knowing a junkie... there are good people and bad, but they still have a monkey on their back, such that, when the time is 'right' ('wrong'?) the addiction means they'll leave you in the street to die... or inthe case of religionists, quite happly participate in the lynch mob. Just because some one is hooked on Meth rather than Heroin doens't mean that one is not under the control of an addiction, and the word of the Pusher carries more weight than anything else. So, your addiction is Judaic. Cool. It's like Gang colours... There is an element of Power and Politics to the things taught (along with a good solid slab of racism in certain sects of Judaism)... So why should I cut slack? You're polite and you're not trying to convert any here. However, I still regard the religous impulse as memetic version of a tape worm... just with less pure motives than one can ascribe to that animal...

 

* - About the only thing we did fully see eye to eye on was the criteron for no longer living... It fell to me to sign the DNR papers and authorise withdrawal of feeding and life support... hard end for a hard man... I can only hope for as steady a hand on the knife when my time comes...

 

Then maybe we should be looking at our similarities rather than our differences. My father's second marriage was to this horrible woman (my step mother) who had 3 children of her own that could do no wrong. Because of the partner he chose, my siblings who were treated as second class citizens (not part of the "elite or LEE7") & watched her put him in an assisted living nursing home when she didn't want to take care of him anymore. And as sad as his death was to me (as to what could have been) it also represented a freedom. (of what no longer was). And as far as religion goes, bear with my quotation of "judge not lest ye be judged". As far as atheism goes, a lot of what you are experiencing from the "memetic impulse of the religionists” is something I have been through my whole life - It's new to you being the non-believer at Christmas & Easter. Not to me! Welcome to the minority!

[woodsmoke]

If you would kindly define "SpaceFalcon", I will reseed the the dead grass left by the burned cross so you will have a nice clean area to lay your torch and pitchfork (should you change your mind).

 

Aww, shucks. You'd do that for me?

 

And please feel free to ask any questions so that there may be a reduction in your vast ignorance concerning my egalitarian religion.

 

Meh.. I may at some future point, but GH has pretty well covered my line of thought already.

 

More accurately, for all I may sometimes say I have an issue with something, it's rare I'll actually pursue it without a fire burning under my ass. Chalk it up to apathy, and the belief I've far better things to do than spend my time debating a potentially ugly topic with someone I've really no inclination to dislike.

 

I must not have been around at that particular moment in time, or perhaps I've just blanked it out. I knew that SF had withdrawn his membership some time ago, but what exactly did he do that would prompt that comment?

 

I'm probably going to end up (yet again) speaking around my foot over this, as I doubt there's much of a consensus on the issue, but I got the feeling just before he left Caleb went on a Jewish Superiority kick, then when he couldn't convince us Jews are--figuratively speaking--god's gift to this Earth (among other things), he worked himself into a huff and decided to take his ball and go home.

[R. S. Martin]

Hmmm. Gramps has met people who will not be intimidated. Pitchu and Skeptic Believer have what it takes to get a real conversation from our boy. Sorry about your troubles with your father, Harley.

[pitchu]

My memory is that Space Falcon pushed too many buttons too often, and especially, finally, with WM.

 

My memory is, also, that he was seventeen when he registered here.

[a skeptical believer]

However, I still regard the religious impulse as memetic version of a tape worm... just with less pure motives than one can ascribe to that animal...

 

So how is your behavior any different towards me? A little self reflection may be necessary here.

 

And as far as lumping all people of Jewish faith into this vision of self-superiority, allow me to be an exception to your rule. Let me to share a website that hopefully you will get the point with out having a "memetic" attack to the fact that others may think differently than you do:

 

The Heretical Notion Of 'Jewish Superiority' "]The Heretical Notion Of 'Jewish Superiority'

 

Some of the ex-fundamentalists/evangelicals on this site seem to have done a 360 and refocused their narrow minded bigotry in a new direction. But bear in mind, they have come to a final conclusion of something we have believed all along. Instead of embracing the realizations of our common beliefs, they find new reasons to retain their bigotry. Some of you have my respect as peaceful accepting non-believers, but others have misplaced anger at those who still choose to believe and are thankful that you no longer do. (this would refer to your comment about the "lynch mob")

 

Out of curiosity - does anyone know of a site that lists all the denominations from which people have come to be atheists?

[woodsmoke]

My memory is that Space Falcon pushed too many buttons too often, and especially, finally, with WM.

 

My memory is, also, that he was seventeen when he registered here.

 

Good memory, Ma.

 

I'd forgotten SF was 17 at the time all that went down; though I knew it then, and I remember thinking that fact did a lot to explain his behavior.

 

I remember enough of what I was like at 17. All the money in the world and a gun to the head couldn't convince me to do that again.

[pitchu]

I remember enough of what I was like at 17. All the money in the world and a gun to the head couldn't convince me to do that again.

Very very few of us would return to age 17, under any circumstances, Sonny-wood.

[Grandpa Harley]

However, I still regard the religious impulse as memetic version of a tape worm... just with less pure motives than one can ascribe to that animal...

 

So how is your behavior any different towards me? A little self reflection may be necessary here.

 

And as far as lumping all people of Jewish faith into this vision of self-superiority, allow me to be an exception to your rule. Let me to share a website that hopefully you will get the point with out having a "memetic" attack to the fact that others may think differently than you do:

 

The Heretical Notion Of 'Jewish Superiority' "]The Heretical Notion Of 'Jewish Superiority'

 

Some of the ex-fundamentalists/evangelicals on this site seem to have done a 360 and refocused their narrow minded bigotry in a new direction. But bear in mind, they have come to a final conclusion of something we have believed all along. Instead of embracing the realizations of our common beliefs, they find new reasons to retain their bigotry. Some of you have my respect as peaceful accepting non-believers, but others have misplaced anger at those who still choose to believe and are thankful that you no longer do. (this would refer to your comment about the "lynch mob")

 

Out of curiosity - does anyone know of a site that lists all the denominations from which people have come to be atheists?

I'd say the title of 'God's Chosesen People' implies a level of self-supposed superiority.

 

And I stand by my comment. To say Judaism is 'better' or 'worse' than Christianity is like saying Meth is better or worse than Crack... It's a parasitic world view... each religion has its own main function of crowd control, I don't care whether you're Jewish, Christian, Sihk, Hindu, Islamic, 7th Day Aventist or Mormon. The primary funtion is tribal identity. It makes sorting out who to kill easier for the powers that be. Thus, it's a parasite, dedicated to its own survival by any means necessary. Now if that means your belief stops you shooting up school yards, then that's good, more power, but I fail to see that prosletyzing your wworld view to those who the Ersatz version didn't work for is either helpful or productive.

 

As to self reflection, physician heal thyself. You, sir, were never a christian and seem to be implying that Judaism has some form of higher ground. Well, the Torah doesn't bear that out.... and the behaviour of modern Israel seems to support my view further, even to the traatment of their own who lived there before the place filled up with Germans, Russians, French, British and Americans all pulling the kind of mawkish shit that Alex Hailey pulled in Africa.

 

If one wishes to trade 'bigotry' slanders then I'm game... You stick with the title you choose, and take the baggage that comes with it. Just don't expect a lubricated ride from all here...

[08 hawk]

I have been told by three different Christians this past Christmas that I was going to hell because I don't accept Jesus as my savior - so not only am I not invited, I am going to hell too.

 

How loving.

[Ouroboros]

But he did say, just in case there is a G-d.

 

Welcome Skeptic! Just a question...since God is a plural noun taking the place of a proper noun... why do Jews leave the "o" out? Don't you think that Y-hweh/Y-WH knows what the - represents?

Maybe it's time to start writing: C-t B-nny, or Nv-s-bl P-nk Un-c-rn too?

 

Good question btw. If G*d (I intentionally used the "*", just like when used for f**k, h*ll and assh*t) gets upset if someone writes "God", or even speak the name Gaawd, or YHWH, Yahweh, Yehovah, Yahoowaah, or whatever, wouldn't G.d know that "-", "." etc represents the missing character in the text and he/she/it/ftm/mtf still get upset? Maybe one has to eliminate the "G" and the "d" also, and maybe the space where the name was supposed to be? Or even the hint of that the name eventually maybe could be inferred to in the text: "In the name of God" would be "In the", or maybe just "In", "God Bless" would be "Bless", "And God spoke to Moses" would become "And Moses", and "In the beginning God created the world" would be "In the beginning the world". It would pretty much remove God from the text just as much it has been removed from my life.

 

-edit-

 

I forgot this one: Fl-ng Sp-gh-tt M-nstr (And remember to put the hyphens in the right spots or mr Spaghetti himself will strange you with his appendages)

[a skeptical believer]

Please enlighten me. Where was I :

 

prosletyzing your (my) wworld view

 

implying that Judaism has some form of higher ground

 

And where did I say:

say Judaism is 'better' or 'worse' than Christianity

 

I can remember asking a family member who has since passed away about why are we called "The Chosen People" and her reply was - "Hmmm... the Chosen People. Chosen for what? Genocide, pogroms or anti-semitism?"

 

As far as any form of proselytism that you may think I have committed, why would I try and convert you to a religion that I'm trying to make peace with myself. then you would be just as confused as I am.

 

Sir, your memetic insecurities may be getting the better of you.

[Grandpa Harley]

PSYCHE! but you did play the holocaust card....

[a skeptical believer]

but you did play the holocaust card....

 

Way out on the periphery - so I'm not sure if it counts.

 

Don't be such a "Meme" spirited person and I may learn to appreciate your sense of humor. Next thing you know you'll be picking on the way I spell G-d.

 

Would anyone like to know where the concept of "The Chosen People" actually came from? (and I ask this purely educational manner so as not provoke)

[Grandpa Harley]

I'd guess the Pentateuch, but I'd be interested to get the horses mouth view.

[a skeptical believer]

Close but no cigar. Pentateuch is the Greek name for the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible. The Talmud is a record of rabbinic discussions pertaining to Jewish law, ethics, customs and history.

 

Contrary to popular belief, Judaism does not maintain that Jews are better than other people. Although we refer to ourselves as G-d's chosen people, we do not believe that G-d chose the Jews because of any inherent superiority. According to the Talmud , G-d offered the Torah to all the nations of the earth, and the Jews were the only ones who accepted it. The story goes on to say that the Jews were offered the Torah last, and accepted it only because G-d held a mountain over their heads! (In Ex. 19:17, the words generally translated as "at the foot of the mountain" literally mean "underneath the mountain"!) Another traditional story suggests that G-d chose the Jewish nation because they were the lowliest of nations, and their success would be attributed to G-d's might rather than their own ability. Clearly, these are not the ideas of a people who think they are better than other nations.

 

Quoted from From Judaism 101

[Grandpa Harley]

Close but no cigar. Pentateuch is the Greek name for the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible. The Talmud is a record of rabbinic discussions pertaining to Jewish law, ethics, customs and history.

 

SNIP

 

Quoted from From Judaism 101

 

Yes, but 'Pentateuch' is easier to type than 'first five books of the Hebrew 'bible''...

 

and the rest is the type of late exegesis style apologetics that I grew tired of a long time ago with Christian sites.

 

Tell me, is there a Jewish version of C.S. 'I was at the Last Supper, I was' Bloody Lewis?

 

Something that would be useful to know, have you got an early Hebraic exegesis on the use of plural in the book Chrsitians call 'Genesis'?

 

Also, what is the supposed authorship of the FFBHB? (that was easier to type than Pentateuch )

[a skeptical believer]

Also, what is the supposed authorship of the FFBHB? (that was easier to type than Pentateuch )

 

I can only guess you are testing me again. Because this would take more time than I have right now, for this and the answers to your other questions you will have to be patient, Grasshopper, and wait untill I return from work this evening.

[a skeptical believer]

Tell me, is there a Jewish version of C.S. 'I was at the Last Supper, I was' Bloody Lewis?

I haven't actually read The Chronicles of Narnia and once I heard it was laced with Christian undertones, I've had no desire to do so. What exactly are you looking for in a Jewish Version?

 

 

Something that would be useful to know, have you got an early Hebraic exegesis on the use of plural in the book Chrsitians call 'Genesis'?

???

Also, what is the supposed authorship of the FFBHB? (that was easier to type than Pentateuch

 

Now this one I tend to refer to the writings of Richard E. Friedman: Who wrote the Bible? & Isaac Asimov's Guide to the Bible or as answered in the following websites:

 

The Bible: Is it a True and Accurate Account of Creation?

 

Who wrote the Bible? (Part 1)

[dr_funkenstein]

It seems to me the whole mythology about the Hebrews being the lowliest of nations chosen by god so that their success would be attributed to him smacks of the whole notion of "the underdog".

 

I mean, you said yourself about the Jewish Messiah:

 

The whole world will believe in the Jewish god

Leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance

Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance

etc.

 

Even the entire story of the Hebrew enslavement, desert wandering and subsequent conquest of Canaan is a microcosm of the underdog who eventually wins the day.

 

In order to achieve a really, properly inflated view of oneself, it's not enough to simply tout your own virtues. No - you need a good backstory! You need to show how downtrodden you were, how lowly, how much wrong was done to you. For from these lows, when the heights are achieved, they are so much more giddy - are they not?

 

This then is my problem with Judaism specifically, and more broadly with Abrahamic religions in general. The idea that what the group I identify myself with has something special to offer the world. It's true that Judaism is much more exclusive than Christianity and actively discourages conversions - however I believe this is ultimately because of the fact that what Jews like about their religion and cultural identity is precisely that - it's exclusivity.

[Grandpa Harley]

Tell me, is there a Jewish version of C.S. 'I was at the Last Supper, I was' Bloody Lewis?

I haven't actually read The Chronicles of Narnia and once I heard it was laced with Christian undertones, I've had no desire to do so. What exactly are you looking for in a Jewish Version?

 

 

Something that would be useful to know, have you got an early Hebraic exegesis on the use of plural in the book Chrsitians call 'Genesis'?

???

Also, what is the supposed authorship of the FFBHB? (that was easier to type than Pentateuch

 

Now this one I tend to refer to the writings of Richard E. Friedman: Who wrote the Bible? & Isaac Asimov's Guide to the Bible or as answered in the following websites:

 

The Bible: Is it a True and Accurate Account of Creation?

 

Who wrote the Bible? (Part 1)

The God in Genesis is referred to as a plural - I'm currently arguing the toss elsewhere that this DOESN'T mean the Jews thought God was a Trinity, but that God was wither referring to himself as a 'Royal' we or he was speaking to the Angels that he'd already created with the 'heavens'... thus I need a solid bit of Judaic exegesis on the subject.

 

As to C.S. Lewis, he wrote MUCH more than the turgid Narnia chronicles. 'Mere Christianity' is wielded like a butterfly knife by the faithful of all stripes. I wondered if there was a JEwish one... having the weapons of the 'enemy' to hand is always handy when trying to take them apart, to paraphrase Sun Tzu on the subject of warfare 3000 years ago...

[a skeptical believer]

It seems to me the whole mythology about the Hebrews being the lowliest of nations chosen by god so that their success would be attributed to him smacks of the whole notion of "the underdog".

 

I mean, you said yourself about the Jewish Messiah:

 

The whole world will believe in the Jewish god

Leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance

Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance

etc.

 

Even the entire story of the Hebrew enslavement, desert wandering and subsequent conquest of Canaan is a microcosm of the underdog who eventually wins the day.

 

In order to achieve a really, properly inflated view of oneself, it's not enough to simply tout your own virtues. No - you need a good backstory! You need to show how downtrodden you were, how lowly, how much wrong was done to you. For from these lows, when the heights are achieved, they are so much more giddy - are they not?

 

This then is my problem with Judaism specifically, and more broadly with Abrahamic religions in general. The idea that what the group I identify myself with has something special to offer the world. It's true that Judaism is much more exclusive than Christianity and actively discourages conversions - however I believe this is ultimately because of the fact that what Jews like about their religion and cultural identity is precisely that - it's exclusivity.

 

This then is my problem with Judaism specifically, and more broadly with Abrahamic religions in general. The idea that what the group I identify myself with has something special to offer the world. It's true that Judaism is much more exclusive than Christianity and actively discourages conversions - however I believe this is ultimately because of the fact that what Jews like about their religion and cultural identity is precisely that - it's exclusivity.

 

Isn't that the premise of all religions? And couldn't you say the same of some atheists? To me, it only becomes a problem when you feel you have to convince others to believe as you do.

 

There are roughly 900 evangelical organizations that pour money into missionary work aimed at Jews.

And as far as exclusivity - I tend to agree. I beleive it is the basis for our longevity.

[a skeptical believer]

The God in Genesis is referred to as a plural - I'm currently arguing the toss elsewhere that this DOESN'T mean the Jews thought God was a Trinity, but that God was wither referring to himself as a 'Royal' we or he was speaking to the Angels that he'd already created with the 'heavens'... thus I need a solid bit of Judaic exegesis on the subject.

 

As to C.S. Lewis, he wrote MUCH more than the turgid Narnia chronicles. 'Mere Christianity' is wielded like a butterfly knife by the faithful of all stripes. I wondered if there was a JEwish one... having the weapons of the 'enemy' to hand is always handy when trying to take them apart, to paraphrase Sun Tzu on the subject of warfare 3000 years ago...

Give me specifics (biblical references) and I'll see what I can find.

 

Unfortunately I haven't read Mere Christianity so I can't give you a personal comparison. But I did find this on the web:

This is My God - The Jewish equivalent of C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity is Herman Wouk's This is My God (Back Bay Books, 1992, ISBN 0-31695-514-0). In it Wouk, like C.S. Lewis, uses a clear, conversational writing style, employing numerous analogies to make his points accessible. He offers a compelling apology for monotheism, which will be of interest to the Christian. The book is aimed at non-practicing Jews and gentiles who are "curious about the old Hebrew faith." The book is also very useful for the gentile who would like to know more about Judaism. It describes how and why the Jews celebrate the major holy days: Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, Purim, Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles, and Hanukkah. He talks about the diet of the Jews, their marriage customs, the rite of circumcision, and the bar mitzvah, among other things. He briefly discusses Judaism's perspective on the after-life and gives an overview of the major religious works: the Torah, Bible, Talmud, and Mishnah.

 

From: The Thinking Christian's Bookshelf

[dr_funkenstein]

Isn't that the premise of all religions? And couldn't you say the same of some atheists? To me, it only becomes a problem when you feel you have to convince others to believe as you do.

 

And as far as exclusivity - I tend to agree. I beleive it is the basis for our longevity.

 

Not all religions believe that their way is the only way. Many believe that their way is simply one way out of many.

 

And as far as applying that idea to atheists - I think you're grasping at straws there. For starters, atheists share no unifying factor other than the fact that we lack belief in deities. In all other respects we may differ. We certainly don't get together for meetings and we don't have cultural traditions that we pass on from generation to generation. We don't see ourselves as somehow special for lacking belief in gods in the same way that you probably don't see yourself as special for lacking belief in unicorns.

 

No doubt that exclusivity is the basis for the longevity of Judaism. Prominent features of a particular meme tend to be there precisely because they favour the continued existence of the meme.