Funny, I've Always Believed Most Of What You Do...

[a skeptical believer]

This is an interesting case, since one can dislike Christianity and *not* be an implied racist. Same with Islam.

 

If one states a disdain for the faith in the God of Abraham, as the root of Christian and Islamic faiths, one is all but a brown shirted thug, or a sheet wearing loon monkey. One of the greatest PR tricks ever pulled was the blurring of racial and religious identity...

 

 

Allow me to think a little bit more on this and process my thoughts before I compose my response.

[Grandpa Harley]

As a addendum, I know Manchester Jews who's family go back to the events at Clifford's Tower in York (1190, for the colonials), thus they're more 'English' than I am, being second Gen (my Grandfather left Ireland in 1918). My Grandfather knew Irish Jews, and there are Jews of every racial variation one can easily think of... Thus, one can be dismissive of the cult, without being racist... at least in my view.

[woodsmoke]

I personally think devotion to monotheism in any form has the potential of breeding intolerance of opposing viewpoints within the mind of a "True Believer™."

 

Exactly.

 

Monotheism seems to me, if not inherently corrupt, at least inherently corruptible. The idea of a One True God is just too black and white, and will inevitably lead to intolerance and persecution, whether against or by its believers.

 

This is an interesting case, since one can dislike Christianity and *not* be an implied racist. Same with Islam.

 

If one states a disdain for the faith in the God of Abraham, as the root of Christian and Islamic faiths, one is all but a brown shirted thug, or a sheet wearing loon monkey. One of the greatest PR tricks ever pulled was the blurring of racial and religious identity...

 

This was exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned SpaceFalcon. He wanted to convince us there exists a genetically-identifiable Jewish ethnicity, and we weren't buying it. Say all you want about the hooked nose and curly dark hair, numerous scientific studies have been done on the subject and the evidence simply isn't there. Despite the fervent wishes and efforts of Jewish authorities and various people throughout history, genetically speaking there is no Jewish "race."

[Grandpa Harley]

Tell the Anti-Deformation League that!

 

They managed to get some reasonable research that showed there is no genetic marker to say that a Palestinian is Jewish or Islamic removed from the journals in the 90s There again, the Palestinian Jew all but a minority in their own country, the place being full of ethnic Russians, French, Germans, and other Caucasians...

[Grandpa Harley]

Are there many Australian Aboriginal Jews?

[a skeptical believer]

It took me a while but I think I get your point. What I think you are saying is why should dislike of Jews seem racist but not be the same for the dislike of Christians or Muslims? Can you think of any other religion where the religion defines the country? (My son came up with India & Hinduism or Pakistan and Muslim but I'm not sure that equates to Zionism. Your thoughts?) Or is there any other vocabulary word like anti-semitism that would mean the same for other religions? Very interesting points you both made.

[pitchu]

Imo, Jews have historically been, and still are, boxed in almost to the point of not being able to do anything right in the eyes of many gentiles. They are, to use Dorothy Parker's line, "Trapped like a trap in a trap."

 

Non-Jews who like and support being in the company of their own kind are considered to be "relating" or "cocooning" or practicing communal bonding. When Jews do it, they're being exclusive. (Never mind that they were forced into ghettos.)

 

When others make the most of living in lands and situations not of their own choosing, they're considered open, adaptive, creative. When Jews do it, it's seen as suspect, pushy, and probably another manipulative Jewish conspiracy.

 

Gentiles who garner wealth are enterprising. Jews' wealth is obtained through the greedy parasitic bleeding of others.

 

Finding the good in old texts, religious or otherwise, and not incorporating into one's life the bad or impossible is ordinarily seen as a sign that one is perspicacious, selective and erudite. When a Jew does this, it's "cherry-picking".

 

Education, for the rest of us, is much to be desired and appreciated for the good it brings into our lives. For Jews, it's a fanatical means of maintaining superiority and a smart gene pool.

 

When non-Jews act on a heightened alertness and wariness based on their experience with egregious past wrongs, they're considered to have learned from experience, and are practicing preparedness. Jews, though, just have this bizarre persecution complex.

 

And the list goes on and on.

 

So...

What should it matter to a Jew if he or she is judged in these ways because of culture... birth... or religion?

 

Oh, yeah, that was a really clever move on the part of Jews to make sure they had three targets painted on them.

[BlueGiant]

Oh, yeah, that was a really clever move on the part of Jews to make sure they had three targets painted on them.

 

Forgive my ignorance, but what three targets?

[a skeptical believer]

This was exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned SpaceFalcon. He wanted to convince us there exists a genetically-identifiable Jewish ethnicity, and we weren't buying it. Say all you want about the hooked nose and curly dark hair, numerous scientific studies have been done on the subject and the evidence simply isn't there. Despite the fervent wishes and efforts of Jewish authorities and various people throughout history, genetically speaking there is no Jewish "race."

 

And what would that prove? There are people who spend an exorbitant amount of time on their geneology. They can trace it back to "infinity & beyond". And I have asked some why they do this. And the reply I get is "It's just a hobby" or "It's nice to know where one's roots came from" My reply is usually: "That is $1.35 will buy you a subway (not sure the $ in NY anymore) or a metro (D.C.) ticket. Some of us don't care or don't actually want to know that our past relation might have been a serial killer or the King of England because it doesn't affect the Here & Now. I was asking a respected relative in the Pharmaco-Genetic field if he had ever heard of a Jewish gene in the Y chromosome and he said no. Good enough for me.

[Evolution_beyond]

I think that what some people might have been trying to say is that it should be possible to criticize someone for having Jewish faith (since this is no different from criticizing someone for being moslem or christian) without it somehow meaning that they are criticizing someone for being Jewish (in the racial sense).

 

Personally, I find the Jewish faith far more tolerable than either Islam or Christianity. But I still have major issues with some of the things that are in the Torah, I still see monotheism as ridiculous anthropomorphism and I would still criticize those Jewish beliefs I disagree with, in exactly the same way I would tear apart the lunacy of Islam and Christianity.

 

This should not in any way be seen as racism or anti-semitism. Those are religious points, not racial ones.

 

For what it's worth, I prefer Judaism to Christianity or Islam. But I think that Buddhism and Hinduism are better. And a non-religious perspective is best of all, I think.

[Grandpa Harley]

This was exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned SpaceFalcon. He wanted to convince us there exists a genetically-identifiable Jewish ethnicity, and we weren't buying it. Say all you want about the hooked nose and curly dark hair, numerous scientific studies have been done on the subject and the evidence simply isn't there. Despite the fervent wishes and efforts of Jewish authorities and various people throughout history, genetically speaking there is no Jewish "race."

 

And what would that prove? There are people who spend an exorbitant amount of time on their geneology. They can trace it back to "infinity & beyond". And I have asked some why they do this. And the reply I get is "It's just a hobby" or "It's nice to know where one's roots came from" My reply is usually: "That is $1.35 will buy you a subway (not sure the $ in NY anymore) or a metro (D.C.) ticket. Some of us don't care or don't actually want to know that our past relation might have been a serial killer or the King of England because it doesn't affect the Here & Now. I was asking a respected relative in the Pharmaco-Genetic field if he had ever heard of a Jewish gene in the Y chromosome and he said no. Good enough for me.

 

What about Mitochondrial markers? I thought Judaic 'descent' was via the matriarchal, not the patriarchal line... so maybe the wrong question. TBH I would have thought a Jew would know that better than some Godless Gentile like me...

[Grandpa Harley]

There is also the question that, if it doesn't matter, then why any objections to the Jewish faith, by anyone, is treated like they simply called the person in question 'kyke'?

[a skeptical believer]

What about Mitochondrial markers? I thought Judaic 'descent' was via the matriarchal, not the patriarchal line... so maybe the wrong question. TBH I would have thought a Jew would know that better than some Godless Gentile like me...

 

What about Mitochondrial markers? Please say this out loud and put the emphasis on the word "about"

 

There's very little evidence for genetically significant differences among the races.

From: From the November 2003 issue of Jewish Currents So, what's the purpose? So that people can scientifically prove that they are or actually not a racist based on the ignorant, insensitive things they say about others? C'mom....

[a skeptical believer]

then why any objections to the Jewish faith, by anyone, is treated like they simply called the person in question 'kyke'?

Because you would be using it in a derogatory sense. It's the negative connotation associated with the word just as there are other words that are inflammatory insults. (which I don't need to repeat). And would you be impressed by the people who have to resort to using these verbal insults? Of course not.

[Ouroboros]

I feel this topic is going the wrong way. Any name calling or even debating over name calling or not, is completely derailing the topic. Stop it immediately, or I will close this topic.

 

H

[Grandpa Harley]

I'm saying you asked the wrong question a Jew would ask... It doesn't matter what is on the Y chromasome since it's the mother who provides 'Jewishness' in terms of the genetic/race theory of Judaism espoused by everyone from the National Socialist Party through to the Zionists... which is a bothersome inconsitancy...

 

However, you take every comment on the inadequacy of just plain nastiness of the Hebrew religion as a racial slur... which it's not... although you seem to choose to take it that way... thus why are you here?

[Grandpa Harley]

I feel this topic is going the wrong way. Any name calling or even debating over name calling or not, is completely derailing the topic. Stop it immediately, or I will close this topic.

 

H

 

I feel it's being driven inthe wrong direction by someone who is making Jewish 101 mistakes... This feels wrong to me too, and not because of my Lenny Bruce moment...

[Grandpa Harley]

then why any objections to the Jewish faith, by anyone, is treated like they simply called the person in question 'kyke'?

Because you would be using it in a derogatory sense. It's the negative connotation associated with the word just as there are other words that are inflammatory insults. (which I don't need to repeat). And would you be impressed by the people who have to resort to using these verbal insults? Of course not.

 

So, my questions or observations on the short comings of the Jewish faith is the equivalent of my calling one a racial epithet, because I'm being derogatory? I'm an equal opportunity bigot when it comes to religions, in that case, since I'll tell any beleiver the bits fo their faith I think are gibberish... I specialise in Christian thought, but I can be scathing about Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Baha'i, Indigo Children and Crystal waving...

[pitchu]

Oh, yeah, that was a really clever move on the part of Jews to make sure they had three targets painted on them.

 

Forgive my ignorance, but what three targets?

 

Culture, birth and religion, BG.

 

Someone who's intent on blasting Jews for the sake of blasting Jews can aim at any one of these areas, claim the blast isn't anti-Semitic because it didn't involve the other two.

 

Additionally, they can blame Jews for being Three Mints in One.

*******************

 

Thank you, Hans.

[a skeptical believer]

I feel it's being driven inthe wrong direction by someone who is making Jewish 101 mistakes... This feels wrong to me too, and not because of my Lenny Bruce moment...

 

Sorry about the Jewish 101 faux pas....

 

"I sent the club a wire stating, Please accept my resignation. I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member. "

 

The Wit & Wisdom & Life of Grouch Marx.

[Grandpa Harley]

not a problem.

 

Why did you presume that it's a Y-chromosome marker?

[a skeptical believer]

So, my questions or observations on the short comings of the Jewish faith is the equivalent of my calling one a racial epithet, because I'm being derogatory?

I haven't seen any questions or observations about the short comings of the Jewish Faith & I never used the word racist....

 

I'm an equal opportunity bigot when it comes to religions, in that case, since I'll tell any beleiver the bits fo their faith I think are gibberish... I specialise in Christian thought, but I can be scathing about Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Baha'i, Indigo Children and Crystal waving...

Thanks for clarifying...

[a skeptical believer]

not a problem.

 

Why did you presume that it's a Y-chromosome marker?

 

Genetic Analysis of Jewish Origins

[Grandpa Harley]

Okay...

[woodsmoke]

It took me a while but I think I get your point. What I think you are saying is why should dislike of Jews seem racist but not be the same for the dislike of Christians or Muslims? Can you think of any other religion where the religion defines the country? (My son came up with India & Hinduism or Pakistan and Muslim but I'm not sure that equates to Zionism. Your thoughts?) Or is there any other vocabulary word like anti-semitism that would mean the same for other religions? Very interesting points you both made.

 

This is what we call a straw man. Zionist ideology is itself a product of the idea Jews are an ethnicity as well as a particular religious group. "(Anti-)Semite" is the same thing.

 

I think that what some people might have been trying to say is that it should be possible to criticize someone for having Jewish faith (since this is no different from criticizing someone for being moslem or christian) without it somehow meaning that they are criticizing someone for being Jewish (in the racial sense).

 

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. There's no more difference between "having Jewish faith" and "being Jewish" than there is between "having Christian faith" and "being Christian." The Jewish "race" quite simply doesn't exist, so to make some distinction between the two in deference to the myth of one is fallacious.

 

Which is not to say one should be allowed to speak hatefully of Jews as a collective or individual people under the guise of "criticizing the religion" anymore than they're allowed to do the same of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. Hateful discrimination can and should still be recognized as such, but this can be done without affording a false and unnecessary extra layer of victim to one particular group.