The Pagan Gospel

[Mythra]

Christians: are you aware that literally everything in the gospel story is a replica of pagan myths and stories that were all in existence and widely known prior to the gospel? Just curious if you have ever dared to examine the evidence. Early Christian fathers justified this by saying that Satan knew ahead of time what God had planned, and plagiarized it in advance. Sound like a reasonable argument to you?

 

This is a continuation of the discussion we had going in the Romans 1 thread

 

An excerpt from "The Jesus Mysteries" by Freke and Gandy

 

"The gospels tell us that on one occasion Jesus exorcised a man of demons who called themselves Legion, because there were "about 2,000 of them." These demons are cast by Jesus into a large herd of pigs, which rush over the edge of a hillside and are drowned. Exactly the same motif is found in the rites of the Mysteries at Eleusis. As part of the purification ceremony before initiation, some 2,000 initiates all bathed in the sea with young pigs. This bathing ritual banished all evil into the pigs, which were then sacrificed, as a symbol of the initiates' own impurities, by being chased over a chasm.

 

Even the Pentecostal miracle of "speaking in tongues" is prefigured by Pagan myth. After Jesus' death the disciples found themselves miraculously speaking in strange tongues, which others heard as their own native langueage. The same phenomenon was reported centuries earlier at Trophonius and Delos, where the oracular priestesses seemed to some to speak unintelligibly, while other witnesses heard them speaking in their own differring mother tongues. Brukert, one of the foremost modern classical scholars, asserts that these Pagan and Christian miracles "have justly been compared."

 

Christians asserted that Jesus' claim to being the one and only Son of God was proven by his miracles. To Celsus this was plainly ridiculous. He tells us, "miracles and wonders have indeed occurred everywhere and in all times", and lists a number of Pagan sages and godmen renowned as wonder-workers. The standard Christian response to such Pagan critics was to cliam that while Jesus' miracles were a sign of his divinity, Pagan miracles were the works of the Devil. Celsus replies indignantly:

 

Good lord! is it not a silly sort of argument to reckon by the same works that one man is a god while his rivals are mere "sorcerers?"

[Mythra]

Another exerpt from "The Jesus Mysteries"

 

"Pagan practices that parallel the Christian communion appalled Justin Martyr, who complains that when Jesus told his disciples to drink of the cup, saying, "This is my blood", he gave this ritual to them alone, yet "the wicked demons in imitation, in the Mysteries of Mithras, also delivered the command to do so." He relates with horror that in these Mysteries, as in the Christian Eucharist, mystic formulas are prounounced over bread and a cup, which are then given to one about to be initiated. As in Christianity, participants in the Mysteries of Mithras had to undergo a long period of preparation before being allowed to partake in the "holy communion." When they did, they were offered a sacrament of water mixed with wine and bread or consecrated wafers bearing the sign of a cross! No wonder poor old Justin Martyr found this Pagan holy communion so disturbing.

 

An inscription reads:

 

He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation.

 

This may sound like a Biblical quotation from Jesus, but it is actually the Mystery godman Mithras speaking! It is, however, uncannily similar to a passage in the Gospel of John where Jesus likewise announces:

 

Unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have not life in yourselves. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood will live in me and I in him.

 

end quote

 

Disturbing stuff in you have your life invested in Jesus. Interesting stuff if you don't. m.

[Mythra]

And, to put this sort of in perspective:

 

From "The Jesus Mysteries"

 

The Jesus story does have all the hallmarks of a myth, so could it be that that is exactly what it is? After all, no one has read the newly discovered Gnostic gospels and taken their fantastic stories as literally true; they are readily seen as myths. It is only familiarity and cultural prejudice that prevent us from seeing the New Testament gospels in the same light. If those gospels had also been lost to us and only recently discovered, who would read these tales for the first time and believe they were historical accounts of a man born of a virgin, who had walked on water and returned from the dead? Why should we consider the stories of Osiris, Dionysus, Adonis, Attis, Mithras, and the other Pagan Mystery saviors as fables, yet come across essentially the same story told in a Jewish context and believe it to be the biography of a carpenter from Bethlehem?

[Lilith]

All excellent points. I would follow with the Krishna similarities, but I'm too lazy today.

[Guest Roamin' Lion]

I am glad that you posted this information. I have always wondered what Christians would do when they discovered this information. I was already on my way out when I did, and this pushed me right out the door.

 

It was liberating, and the nail in the coffin of the false master, Christianity, that I had served.

 

If there is a God, I do not feel estranged from that being, but if there is not, then I am fine with that too.

 

I am much more interested in bringing a world we wish to live in to pass than preparing for another one.

[Mythra]

People on this site talk a lot about hell, and why the concept of hell wasn't present in the Old Testament. Guess what? Pagan.

 

From the same book:

 

"No wonder, then, that when early Christians came across passages in Plato concerning the punishment of souls in Tartarus, the Greek hell, they found it difficult to explain how Pagans could have anticipated their own doctrine of hellfire. In Phaedo, for example, Plato describes a "huge lake blazing with much fire.... and boiling with water and mud." In the non-canonical Christian scripture The Apocalypse of Peter we find the same fate awaiting sinners in the Underworld, who will be trapped in "a huge lake filled with blazing mud."

 

and this

 

"The more enlightened sages of the Mysteries viewed such horrors as merely stories to encourage better moral behavior. Plutarch calls the terrors of the Underworld an "improving myth". The Christian philosopher Origen likewise argued that the literal terrors of hell were false, but they ought to be publicized in order to scare simpler believers."

[syndacit]

The Christian philosopher Origen likewise argued that the literal terrors of hell were false, but they ought to be publicized in order to scare simpler believers."

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lol, typical propaganda

[shy1680]

All excellent points.  I would follow with the Krishna similarities, but I'm too lazy today.

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The Krishna/Christ similarities are what got me first questioning Christianity.

 

Here is the page I first found that started my deconversion.

 

 

Author Kersey Graves (1813-1883), a Quaker from Indiana, compared Yeshua's and Krishna's life. He found what he believed were 346 elements in common within Christiana and Hindu writings. 1 That appears to be overwhelming evidence that incidents in Jesus' life were copied from Krishna's. However, many of Graves' points of similarity are a real stretch.

 

He did report some amazing coincidences:

 

#6 & 45: Yeshua and Krishna were called both a God and the Son of God.

7: Both was sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man.

8 & 46: Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity.

13, 15, 16 & 23: His adoptive human father was a carpenter.

18: A spirit or ghost was their actual father.

21: Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent.

27 & 28: Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star.

30 to 34: Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna's parents stayed in Mathura.

41 & 42: Both Yeshua and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted.

56: Both were identified as "the seed of the woman bruising the serpent's head."

58: Jesus was called "the lion of the tribe of Judah." Krishna was called "the lion of the tribe of Saki."

60: Both claimed: "I am the Resurrection."

64: Both referred to themselves having existed before their birth on earth.

66: Both were "without sin." 

72: Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine.

76, 77, & 78: They were both considered omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

83, 84, & 85: Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured "all manner of diseases." 

86 & 87: Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead.

101: Both selected disciples to spread his teachings.

109 to 112: Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners.

115: Both encountered a Gentile woman at a well.

121 to 127: Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies. 

128 to 131: Both descended into Hell, and were resurrected. Many people witnessed their ascensions into heaven.

 

 

Points of similarity found by other writers:

In addition, there are other points of similarity between Krishna and Yeshua:

 

"The object of Krishna's birth was to bring about a victory of good over evil." 2

  Krishna "came onto earth to cleanse the sins of the human beings." 2

"Krishna was born while his foster-father Nanda was in the city to pay his tax to the king." 3 Yeshua was born while his foster-father, Joseph, was in the city to be enumerated in a census so that "all the world could be taxed."

Jesus is recorded as saying: "if you had faith as a mustard seed you would say to the mountain uproot yourself and be cast into the ocean" Krishna is reported as having uprooted a small mountain. 4

Krishna's "...foster-father Nanda had to journey to Mathura to pay his taxes" just as Jesus foster-father Joseph is recorded in the Gospel of Luke as having to go to Bethlehem to pay taxes. 10

"The story about the birth of Elizabeth's son John (the Baptist), cousin of Jesus, corresponds with the story in the Krishna myth about the birth of the child of Nanda and his wife Yasoda." 10 Nanda was the foster-father of Krishna.

The Greek God Dionysos, Jesus and Krishna were all said to have been placed in a manger basket after birth. 10

 

Correspondences between Hinduism and some branches of Christianity:

At least some branches of Christianity share the following beliefs with Hinduism:

 

A future reward in heaven or punishment in Hell.

Hinduism and Catholicism share the concept of Purgatory.

A day of judgment.

A general resurrection.

The need for repentance for sin.

Salvation requires faith in the Savior.

A belief in angels and of evil spirits.

A belief that disease and sickness is caused by evil spirits.

A past war in heaven between good and bad angels.

Free will.

God is considered the "Word of Logos."

Their religious texts talk of "the blind leading the blind," "a new heaven and a new earth, "living water," "all scripture is given by inspiration of God," "all scripture is profitable for doctrine," "to die is great gain," etc.

Fasting.

Being born again.

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jckr1.htm

 

The typical Christian excuse for me was, "Hindu's stole their material from Christianity". Too bad the story of Krishna was around before the N.T. was written. I LOVE the excuse of the use of prophesies from the O.T. to create christ like figures in other religions, too bad the O.T. doesnt match any of those ideas either.

[syndacit]

thats craaazzzzy

 

but everything is copied from everyone else

*cough*star wars theme*cough* lol

[Lokmer]

To be fair, the Krishna similarities weren't written down until after the fifth or sixth centuries. Since there was active trade between the far east and the near east, and since there are (at the least) ledgends of unsuccessful missionarry attempts to India before that time, it really is impossible to know whether Christianity influenced Hinduism or vice versa - or a little of both.

 

But, removing Krishna from the field of contenders, there are still *dozens* of well-documented places that these legends come from. I just think it's important not to overplay one's hand.

 

Also, Kersey Graves is a man known for not being reliable in his research - he doesn't cite sources often enough to be trusted, and some of the sources he does cite have since been discredited (the authors were working on conjecture and misunderstanding).

 

-Lokmer

[Guest Roamin' Lion]

It is also to be noted that many of the myths of the NT had origins in the ancient goddess religions as well.

 

The whole subject fascinates me. I love cultural anthropology.

 

I should start a hobby of doing more reading in that vein.

[Mythra]

We will leave Krishna out of the discussion. This is about the pagan origins. We'll try to stick with Egyptian, Greek, and Persian theologies and philosophies. There can be no disputing that all of these preceded Christianity, and that the early church fathers were vehement in the defense of the "faith" against claims of it's pagan origins.

[Lokmer]

No dispute at all among anyone who actually studies the stuff. Even the early Christian apologists couldn't dispute it!

 

-Lokmer

[Mythra]

I am glad that you posted this information. I have always wondered what Christians would do when they discovered this information. I was already on my way out when I did, and this pushed me right out the door.

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Yeah, this kind of information was what freed me up too.

 

Hard to argue against, too, since it's not just someone's opinion.

 

Not too many people are gonna dispute that Socrates and Plato and Pythagoras were real people.

 

Unlike Jesus of Nazareth. Or was it Bethlehem. Or Alexandria. Or Rome.

Just where in the hell was Jesus born? That is the question.

 

P.S. I freakin love your handle. Roarin' Lion.. superb.

[Wade]

This is also one of the factors that helped "seal the deal" on my leaving "the cult".

 

 

 

What reliable books would anyone suggest on this subject?

[Guest Roamin' Lion]

Mythra, thanks, but my handle is Roamin' Lion which is a bit more sinister.

 

It was a play on words that occurred to me, that was too clever to pass up.

[Mythra]

my mistake lion.

 

I read it like roarin. Roamin, roarin, all the same.

 

took it to mean like in 1 Peter 5:8 - The devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

 

don't be surprised if the christians here avoid your ass.

[Mythra]

Wade: check out "General Theological Issues" "question for AUB". We discussed some different books there on this kinda stuff.

[Mythra]

Oh, I get it lion. duh

 

Roamin as in ROMAN. As in feed em to the lions.

 

Now I know the christians are gonna avoid your ass.

[Guest Roamin' Lion]

LOL Mythra. Yeah, well, it is to be expected.

 

I can see them, and I can see through them.

 

But, we are all entitled to believe what we want. Our behavior is that which leaks out onto everyone else.

 

I try to treat everyone with respect unless they are abusive to others.

[Mythra]

there's all kinds of people here.

 

I can't stand the hit and run christians who take at pot shot at ya with scripture and then run like a scared dog.

 

Speaking of dog, watch out for dogmatically challenged. He's a really juvenile. Hi doggie

[Japedo]

Hi Mythra....just an FYI for you, today I'm picking up "Jesus Mysteries" from B&N, heading over there in a little while.

 

 

I have the book, It's full of lots of Info

[Japedo]

For thoes interested:

 

 

 

EGYPTIAN RELIGION AND THE SUN/SAVIOR

At this point we come to Egypt. More than three thousand years before Christianity began, the early morning "Sun/Savior" was pictured in Egypt as the "New Born Babe." The infant savior's name was "Horus."

 

At daybreak each day, this wonderful, newborn child (represented by the Sun…the Sun/Savior) is of course "Born Again". Horus is risen on the Horizon as the sun rises in the East daily.

 

And of course "God's Sun" goes to His death at sundown wearing a "crown of thorns" or "corona" (the rays of the sun so clearly seen at sunset)/ Remember the Statue of Liberty? To this day, kings still wear a round crown of spikes, symbolizing the rays of the Sun!

 

The Egyptians knew that the Sun was at its highest point in the sky (or high noon) when no shadow was cast by the pyramid. At that point, all Egypt offered prayers to the "Most High" God! As stated before, to the ancients, the sky was the abode, or heavenly temple, of the "Most High." Therefore, "God's Sun" was doing His heavenly Father's work in the temple at 12 noon!

 

IMPORTANCE OF THE SUN DIAL & CROSS OF THE ZODIAC…RELIGION ADVANCES

The world of ancient man kept track of times and seasons by the movement of the Sun - daily, monthly, yearly. For this, the sundial was devised. Not only the daily movement of the Sun was tracked on the round dial, but the whole year was charted on a round calendar dial. Examples: Ancient Mexican, Mayan, Inca, Aztec, Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, Celtic, Aryan, etc. With this method, certain new concepts emerged in the mind of ancient man

 

Since the Earth experiences four different seasons, all the same and equal (in time) each year, the round calendar was divided into four equal parts. This represented the complete story of the life of "God's Sun." The famous painting of The Last Supper pictures the 12 followers of the Son in four groups (of 3) . . . the four seasons of the year! Think on this for a minute!

 

On the round surface of the yearly calendar, you draw a vertical line directly across the middle, cutting the circle in half - one end being the point of the winter solstice; the other end being the point of the summer solstice. Then draw another straight line (crossing the first one). One end of the new line is the spring equinox; the other end is the autumn equinox.

 

You now have the starting points for each of the four seasons. This is referred to by all major encyclopedias and reference works, both ancient and modern, as "The Cross of the Zodiac." Thus, the life of God's "Sun" is on "the Cross." This is why we see the round circle of the Sun on the crosses of Christian churches. The next time you pass a Christian church, look for the circle (Sun) on the cross.

 

On December 21 or 22, the Sun, going south, reaches its lowest point in the sky (our winter solstice). By December 25th, it is clear that the Sun its returning northward. Therefore on December 25th the sun is “Born Again.” Christians stole December 25th from the Roman celebration of Sol Invictus-the Sun Unconquered. And to this day, worshippers still celebrate the birthday of the Sun only under the disguise of the birthday of the Son…Jesus.

 

It was well understood by ancient man that our weather was caused and controlled by the Sun. It was a simple fact that God's Sun had the power to control storms at will. The ancient Egyptians taught that He did this as He rested in His heavenly boat while crossing the sky. The story of Jesus calming the storm (Matt. 8:23-27) echoes this.

 

The next point to be made requires first a little background. Christians have always referred to God as "The Father." But viewing God as a father didn't start here - it goes back far into the ancient world. The reason is: Our planet was always viewed as our "Mother Earth or Mother Nature." And since rain (the life-bringing fluid), falling from heaven, impregnated and brought life to Mother Earth, it was therefore believed that our Father was in Heaven.

 

THE IMPORTANCE OF THE INFLUENCE OF THE PHARAOHS

Though all of the essential pieces of the Christian story were long in existence before Egypt, it was with the coming of the Pharaohs that the story was finally codified and became religious dogma. Though the story varied in some details from place to place in Egypt, the essence was always the same: God’s Sun was the “Light of the World,” who gave His life for us.

 

In ancient Egypt it was said that if you wanted to follow the life of God’s Sun and thereby “live in the light of God’s Word,” one would have to leave his old ways of life to “Follow the Sun.” But before beginning this new life in “The Word,” one must die to the old way of life and be “Born Again.” Your first birth was “out of water” your mother formed you in. Because her water broke and your new life began, rebirth is symbolized by coming out of total immersion in water-baptism-or being born again.

 

In Mal 4:2, the God of Heaven is described as the "Sun of Righteousness with healing in His wings." The Sun with healing in His wings?? Then in the New Testament in Matt. 23:37 and Luke 13:34, we see God's Son wanting to gather all under "His wings." This is most appropriate for, in Egypt, the Sun was always pictured with His wings. I mention this only to show you that even the Old Testament is not immune from such symbolism within itself.

 

These points here mentioned are a few of hundreds, if not thousands of direct connections that can be made between the Christian Bible Story and the far more ancient, original story from the origin of religion among mankind. My purpose for drawing your attention to this literary plagiarism is best stated by Alfred North Whitehead who said, “ No lie can live forever,” and Egyptologist Gerald Massey, “They must find it difficult, those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority.”

 

I would like to leave you with a quote which I hope will serve as an impetus for your further study into these areas in order that you “cast out the leaven” of perverse lies taught as truth:

 

“All Indo-Germanic nations have worshipped crucified Saviors and overwhelming proof was obtained that the sun-myths of the ancient Aryans were the origin of the religion in all the countries which were peopled by the Aryans”…Charles Morris. Let us study to show ourselves approved by God. Anyone wanting to look into this subject more thoroughly might read Aryan Sun Myths …The Origin of Religion by Charles Morris…and Bible Myths by T. W. Doane. 

 

This website has a lot of good info on it, however I don't agree their religious theory, however It helps clarify the pagan in Christianity.

 

THE BIRTHDAY OF THE SON OF THE SUN GOD

[Amanda]

Christians:  are you aware that literally everything in the gospel story is a replica of pagan myths and stories that were all in existence and widely known prior to the gospel?  Just curious if you have ever dared to examine the evidence.  Early Christian fathers justified this by saying that Satan knew ahead of time what God had planned, and plagiarized it in advance.  Sound like a reasonable argument to you?

 

This is a continuation of the discussion we had going in the Romans 1 thread

 

An excerpt from "The Jesus Mysteries" by Freke and Gandy

 

"The gospels tell us that on one occasion Jesus exorcised a man of demons who called themselves Legion, because there were "about 2,000 of them."  These demons are cast by Jesus into a large herd of pigs, which rush over the edge of a hillside and are drowned.  Exactly the same motif is found in the rites of the Mysteries at Eleusis.  As part of the purification ceremony before initiation, some 2,000 initiates all bathed in the sea with young pigs.  This bathing ritual banished all evil into the pigs, which were then sacrificed, as a symbol of the initiates' own impurities, by being chased over a chasm.

 

Even the Pentecostal miracle of "speaking in tongues" is prefigured by Pagan myth.  After Jesus' death the disciples found themselves miraculously speaking in strange tongues, which others heard as their own native langueage.  The same phenomenon was reported centuries earlier at Trophonius and Delos, where the oracular priestesses seemed to some to speak unintelligibly, while other witnesses heard them speaking in their own differring mother tongues.  Brukert, one of the foremost modern classical scholars, asserts that these Pagan and Christian miracles "have justly been compared."

 

Christians asserted that Jesus' claim to being the one and only Son of God was proven by his miracles.  To Celsus this was plainly ridiculous.  He tells us,  "miracles and wonders have indeed occurred everywhere and in all times", and lists a number of Pagan sages and godmen renowned as wonder-workers.  The standard Christian response to such Pagan critics was to cliam that while Jesus' miracles were a sign of his divinity, Pagan miracles were the works of the Devil.  Celsus replies indignantly:

 

Good lord! is it not a silly sort of argument to reckon by the same works that one man is a god while his rivals are mere "sorcerers?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hello Mythra... Yes, it seems Jesus has an emphasis on connecting all underlying Truths.. hence, His ministry of reconciliation. Perhaps each component, even pagan, has a piece of the total puzzle? Forgive me as I'm not real familiar with Freke and Gandy, yet I think the story of the pigs is different in the Bible... yet similar.

 

Perhaps Jesus displayed the creation of the consciousness of 'God' because of what He did in all aspects, and how His teachings was a miracle of that time in and of itself! It seems it is the explosive principles that He taught that restored a new life to many down trodden, which He himself adhered to even till He died.

[Mythra]

Perhaps Jesus displayed the creation of the consciousness of 'God' because of what He did in all aspects, and how His teachings was a miracle of that time in and of itself! It seems it is the explosive principles that He taught that restored a new life to many down trodden, which He himself adhered to even till He died.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh yes. The alleged Jesus' teachings were quite explosive and revolutionary. For the Jews, that is. Day old stuff, simple plagiarism to the Greeks.

 

Love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you: Socrates 469-399 BCE

 

Do to others as you'd like done to you: Plato 427-347 BCE

 

Both just a little before the supposed lifetime of the supposed Christ.