Jesus is a Myth

[spamandham]

Oh, and about Nazareth. 

 

Again, we don't have to rely on archaeology.

 

Josephus lists 65 towns and hamlets that were located in Galilee in his day.  Nazareth is not among them.

 

A similar listing is given in the Talmud, and Nazareth is missing from that list too.

 

There are other factors that prohibit Nazareth from being a tiny hamlet if anyone wants to get into minutia.

[Mythra]

Wait there's more, yeah the disciples stole th ebody, that myth even gets mentioned in the Bible, yep the disciples fought off a load of Roman soldiers and then moved the stone and nicked th ebody. Then when they were getting killed for it, still didn't give the body up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Rufus: you are believing what the bible tells you the jews said. This isn't what the jews said about Jesus. What they really said was, "Jesus? No. We know nothing about this Jesus"..

 

There was no body to be found because there was no body to begin with.

[white_raven23]

Don't know how many of you are familiar with Dr. Jason Long.  He shows up in this forum once in awhile.  He has a book out called Biblical Nonsense.  Also a website called biblicalnonsense.com.  Here is chapter 16 from his book it really shines the light on "the good news" As soon as I read this chapter, I ordered the book.  It doesn't appear that he is a firm "mythicist", he takes a little more conservative approach - but this is really an enlightening read.An_Introduction_to_Biblical_Nonsense.htm

 

Ohhh!

 

Look what I found while poking around in that guy's website! If you go about halfway down the page, despite the author's consideration for withholding names, you all might find something annoyingly familiar.

 

It's Troy and his 4 point bullshit!!!!

 

Check it out! The rebuttals are satisfying!

 

http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/dis.html

[Mythra]

That is so funny. Our man Troy is a busy young man.

 

This part I like especially:

 

Troy: Hundreds of people have tried, but they have always failed in trying to bring down the perfect proof for God. In other words, whatever contention you will bring up I am infinitely ahead of you to eternal life as has been revealed in previous discussions.

 

Dr. Long: I see. I encourage readers to visit his page to view a nice example of empty, amateurish, pop-philoshophical rhetoric.

 

 

[- AUB -]

ficino

 

AUB can stand for "An Un-Believer" but it’s originally a shortening of A. Uiet Bhor (I still use this on other forums) an acronym of “An Unbeliever In Every Thing Beyond His Own Reason” which is an obscure quote by Darwin. It sums me up as well as him.

 

Mythra

 

Great work dealing with the theists, saved me the effort. I’d love to spend all my time on forums, but between my research and my business I can barely do 3 hours day.

 

 

What I found was kind of amazing. They poke fun at the mythicist premise, like it's some brand new idea that someone has come up with. They accuse people of believing Jesus is a myth only because of their "fallen nature" and sinful inclinations. They pick at little details in these books without addressing the big issue.

 

Doherty notices this on his site, despite being an “amateur” he’s dealt with all attacks on his work expertly, and so far has had very few xtians pay attention to him. It appears they wish to ignore this issue, so it gets less publicity, they really have nothing to counter it. For so long they’ve been able to build on the assumption of a historical Jesus with absolutely no evidence that it hasn’t sunk in that they're screwed on this. I might make it my speciality, as it’s so much fun watching them squirm, and its not difficult to learn all there is as the data is scarce.

 

 

 

Here is the big issue: GNOSTIC CHRISTIANS WERE THE FIRST CHRISTIANS.

 

 

Possibly, but I suspect they are a variation of Paulinism that is closer to his ideas than the other branch, literalism. The important thing is that there’s no evidence for a pre-Pauline literal sect, so all you have to do is show Paul was not talking about a historical character an you’ve done it.

 

As to the xtian posters here, they’ve done nothing but repeat YoYos nonsense, as dogma is all they have to cling to, that and dishonesty...

 

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html

 

Here apologists try to deal with Mythicism, notice what they do, second paragraph, they mention some leading Mythicists, then attack them for not having enough qualifications, (A.S. is an easy target). Apart from being an ad homonym of course they are careful not to mention someone that would destroy their entire argument, Robert M. Price!!!! He’s got 2 PhDs in NT studies, therefor they have to avoid mentioning him for their pathetic tactic to work, and this decree of calculated dishonesty shows how we may have already won. I’m thinking of dissecting the whole page, but would anyone here like to poke holes in it?

[chefranden]

Sorry, historical in that it is a document talking of past events, rather than a document relating science. Herodotus' Histories is an historical document though not alwasy factually correct (and there are less manuscripts for that than the Bible).

 

Just so you know, the number of manuscripts is meaningless. Lots of copies of fiction do not make the stories real. The only thing you can infer from this is that it was perhaps popular fiction. Of course you know that the churches worked to preserve texts it aproved of and worked hard to destroy the texts that it disapproved of.

[Ouroboros]

thankful, you dummy.  (no offense)

 

Jesus IS Dionysis.  (with a little jewish flavoring added in)

 

Dionysis is Jesus under Influence. Like I said, Bullshitting Under Influence: BUI.

(only funny in US)

[Ouroboros]

Most writers of fiction include some real people, places or events to some degree.  Shall we conclude that all such books are historical documents?  Have you ever seen Galaxy Quest? 

 

Then we only need the Omega 13 module, and go back in time.

[Cerise]

Dionysis is Jesus under Influence. Like I said, Bullshitting Under Influence: BUI.

(only funny in US)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You know that would make a great hit show on Fox. DUI: Deities Under Influence. Jesus and Dionysis could be ushered onto a desert island while people try to make them give up their wine drinking ways. And then Dio's bi friend Zeus could show up with his boy-toy Ganymede and ex-girlfriend Hera and set Jesus up on a blind date. Hilarity would ensue.

[Ouroboros]

Ohhh!

 

Look what I found while poking around in that guy's website! If you go about halfway down the page, despite the author's consideration for withholding names, you all might find something annoyingly familiar.

 

It's Troy and his 4 point bullshit!!!!

 

Check it out! The rebuttals are satisfying!

 

http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/dis.html

 

HAH! I can recognize Troyism too! I feel like one in the gang now!

 

I'm and educated man now, I feel the power, I could also see the horrible narrow minded bullshit that was expelled in every sentence, and I knew it was Troy.

 

Fabulous!

 

[Mythra]

AUB - thanks for keeping me honest. There is still a bunch of this that I am working out in my thinking.

 

Regarding the mythicist premise, I have a question for AUB or Lokmer or Bruce or Zoe: (or anyone else who is in the know)

 

If Paul is to be believed, he was persecuting christians when he was converted on the road to Damascus.

In my thinking, I took this to be Gnostics or some other group of early Proto-Christians. I believe that Paul dove in and took over an already established group. I haven't read a good explanation of this yet as it ties to the non-historical jesus camp.

 

Ach. S. believes Paul to be non-historical also. She's the only one that I've seen that opinion from.

 

Also, who were the Therapeutae? As I understand it, Philo of Alexandria wrote of them, and they were a sect of ascetic jews similar to the essenes.. They believed in dying to self in order to elevate oneself. They had to get rid of all of their belongings to join. What else did they believe? Any chance they are connected in some way?

[Mythra]

What I find myself doing is thinking in terms of artificially imposed dates in time. (Just like Hansolo did at the start of thread, in mentioning 1 CE)

 

I was thinking, well lets see. Paul's writings started around 50 CE.. so that's 17 years after..

 

Wait a minute! If Jesus is just a story, then 33 CE is meaningless..

 

Stories and parables could have been going around and gaining ground for 100 years before Paul entered the picture.

 

It's hard to think outside of established patterns of thought.

[- AUB -]

If Paul is to be believed, he was persecuting christians when he was converted on the road to Damascus.

 

This aspect of the story is just one of the later persecution myths developed my masochistic martyr obsessives, like the Nero legends. Study the martyr phenomena, its a significant part of xtian mythology, and was established very early on, and backdated to ridiculously early periods when nobody even knew xtians existed let alone persecuted them, the Pliny the Younger interpolation is the most absurd. It’s part of the whole exaggerated numbers thing I previously mentioned, re-inventing history by projecting second century practices, beliefs and fads onto the first. What Acts and the rest tells us is not what happened in 0-50 ce but what they believed and maybe what was even happening to them in 100-170 ce. (though even this period is too early for genuine persecutions)

 

It’s important to keep Mythicism alive, as the number 1 tactic xtians and scholars use to combat us is to simply ignore us, they have to choice, as there’s nothing else they can do.

 

We have so little data on the Therapeutae, it’s hard to say what connection they may have had to xtianity, though they show similer attitutes so did many other groups.

 

What I find myself doing is thinking in terms of artificially imposed dates in time. (Just like Hansolo did at the start of thread, in mentioning 1 CE)

 

You do have to un-learn a lot, presupposition is the main obstacle to Mythicism.

 

Paul may have been semi mythical, an interesting argument is that all his writing are Pseudopegraphical, not just the later ones, and that his was just a name. That changes a few things, the exact nature of the neo-platonic origins for a start. It’s argued that his work is earliest as he fails to mention the gospels, but as they fail to mention his work, it could be other way round.

 

I do hope we get a few more xtians to object on this, take away jesus and all other debates are worthless, also I'd like more materal for the Mythicist section of my site.

[Mythra]

Thanks so much for your help, AUB.

 

You have a site? Is it up?

 

I'm just fascinated by all of this.

 

Christians don't even know how to argue with you once you say that you disagree that Jesus even existed, and start offering evidence.

[Mythra]

I thousand pardons, I beg of thee,.

 

I shall do penitence against the wall for my transgression..

 

 

[- AUB -]

You have a site? Is it up?

 

You didn't know? That'll teach me to take my banner down! I'm currently re-editing a lot of my essays and I’d appreciate any criticisms, (from freethinkers, I have a no-theist policy).

[Mythra]

Thanks AUB. Got it now, locked in favorites. Looking forward to spending some time there. m.

[chefranden]

Jesus.

 

 

Does anybody know about these guys? I'm reading a history of the Freemasons that thinks these fellows may be what is left of the original Jerusalm Church. They have an interesting view of Jesus.

[Mythra]

Mandaen_Beliefs.htmI came across this. But, you have probably already seen it, if you have looked much already.

[Mythra]

On the Mandaean Book of John the Baptist tab, I found this note at the bottom..

Don't have a clue what it means, but it's kind of interesting.

 

"Like modern Mandaeans, Essene Nazoreans reject the false and unhistorical Christian "Christ figure" created by the Roman Church and propogated by modern Christianity. Unlike modern Manaeans, however, The Order of Nazoreans Essenes accept and worship the original Yeshua and Miryai (the Essenes Jesus & Mary Magdalene), as the true Nazorean Messiahs and incarnation of Hibil-Yawar-Ziwa (Manda dHiia) and Simat Hiia.

 

[Mythra]

Order_of_Nazorean_Essenes.htmThis was one of the tabs also. On the Nazorean Essenes. Looks like there is tons of info and other links here. Kind of interesting.

 

All I'm finding out so far, is how much I don't know about things. Wasted too much time with my nose in the bible.

[Ouroboros]

DAMN! I think the little congregation next to our office could be a Mandean Church!

 

They always wear white to their gatherings. The text on their door is arabic, so I thought it was muslim, but I just didn't get that feel, because women and men go to church together.

 

I think I should ask them...

 

Do Muslims dress in white for their gatherings?

[Mythra]

Anyone have any insights on that Nazorean Essenes link?

 

It has tons of links, including the gnostic codices that were found at Nag Hammadi

 

Is there any truth to that stuff, or is it the result of some really good 'shrooms?

 

 

 

 

I'm gettin a little discombobulated here.

[Mythra]

I mean, click on the "yeshu" tab and see what they have to say about Jesus. They say he was a real dude, but not a jew. He taught "a unique form of Nazirean Gnosis called Nazirutha".

 

Then, in the "nazorean" article it mentions that one of the names for the Nazorean Gnostics was N'Tzrim. Then, I reread the first link in this thread by the Jewish guy, Hayyim ben Yehoshua. He said that the jews called the first christians "Notzrim". weird.

 

This shit is freakin' me out, man.

[qadeshet]

Re: Nazorean Essenes-There is some Truth there but I wish you luck trying to dig it out.

 

Their entire system seems mainly to be built on the Tree of Life and Gnosticism with a little bit of everything thrown in. This is unnecessarily complex. I prefer the Western Mystery Tradition, the teachings of the Golden Dawn, and Crowley.