A Middle Path Between Religion And Atheism?

[Evolution_beyond]

I watched Seven Years in Tibet for the first time last night. And I experienced some of the same feelings I had when I watched Kundun a few years ago.

 

I felt overcome by the beauty of the Buddhist's respect for life and the wisdom they aspire to. And I felt grief when I saw how their world changed when the Communist Chinese invaded.

 

It made me wonder again whether religion is always a bad thing. Religion should not try to be science and tell us what is real or not. It's good to get rid of the bad metaphors of God and an afterlife.

 

But doesn't something of the religious approach to life have it's place? The attention to mystery and wonder in the world, the focus on ethical issues and respect for life and desire for wisdom. These things have their place - and some mystery, ritual and mystical approach can have real benefits for human beings.

 

Religion should not try and tell us what is real or not - but it can and should enrich our lives with a sense of wonder and reverance, something that science cannot really offer (it is outside of its scope). So Atheism shouldn't try and be politics either. There is a place for spiritual reverence, when it is an atheist form of 'spirituality'.

 

There are good metaphors and bad metaphors. It's good to get rid of bad metaphors - but if the metaphors are good ones, what then? All things are one - we are all made of atoms. It is good to reflect and meditate on the deeper mysteries of life. It is good to observe respect for all living creatures and concern with ethical improvement.

 

What I am suggesting I suppose is that the future for the human race might involve a kind of middle ground between the need for religious metaphors and feelings and the need for a rationalist approach to our understanding of things.

 

Buddhism can provide this middle ground (the Buddha called it the 'middle path' actually) but I'm sure that the human species can come up with another form of post-theistic religion in the future - and I think we probably will.

 

Of course, maybe we don't need religion at all - maybe art, film, music and literature can fill a lot of those gaps. Which just leaves ritual and ethics, and they can exist on their own. But perhaps there is value in unifying it into a single vision and way of life? Religion doesn't have to be theism after all.

 

Just some odd thoughts I had last night

 

PS. I'd become a Buddhist but I fear I'd have to give up eating meat, and I don't really want to do that.

[NearlyInsane]

I love Buddhism. But you have to keep in mind this religion has been changed hundreds of times over the years just like xianity. In its original form it's pretty simple, & the philosophy is basically outlined by the 4 Noble Truths & the Eightfold Path.

 

The 4 Noble Truths:

 

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

 

The Eightfold Path:

 

1. Right View Wisdom

2. Right Intention

3. Right Speech Ethical Conduct

4. Right Action

5. Right Livelihood

6. Right Effort Mental Development

7. Right Mindfulness

8. Right Concentration

 

To me, the basic principal is simply the realization that pretty much everything you do causes suffering. I don't get too deep into it, tho earlier in my life these concepts gave me LOTS to think about that you wouldn't normally do here in the west. But I've found that just keeping that thought in the back of my mind, & attempting wherever I can to do the least harm has made me a better person.

 

 

More modern forms of buddhism can get pretty bizarre, including one form which is very similar to xianity.

[Robbobrob]

For me, the stories, the myth and legends, are the keys to the usefulness of religion. If you keep it all in metaphor and don't confuse symbolism for reality, many of the religious tales and ancient myths are very educational. (Can you tell I just finished reading a Joseph Campbell book).

 

I do not label myself as a religionist, nor an atheist. I think there are flaws in thinking imaginary things are real, AND thinkign that imaginary things are not real. If it is thought, than it is real. And that makes Jesus real, and it makes FLying Speghetti Monster real. Because the stories are real. And they have a lot to teach us about how society has viewed itself and the world. Sometimes as an evil, sometimes as a good.

 

Buddhism, at its basic level, is a great philosophy. And there are others that, if you read what the founders of the religion said, have great messages....though many messages get trampled and lost by the misuse of their followers. I find comprehension of what a great thinker says is very diluted within a generation or two. In the case of Jesus, shoot, he had to tell his closest students what his stories meant, they were so thick headed at times. I seriously think Jesus went out of his way to pick the dumbest of the dumb to follow him....starting with the original 12.

 

Anyway, I got rambling there, I live between the two camps. There is enough science to tell me the how of the universe, there is still enough mystery to create fantastic stories, and there is enough thought on the why to keep us debating that questsion for years to come.

[Grandpa Harley]

Paging Jun!

[Grandpa Harley]

BTW my take on the 4 Noble Truths

 

1) There is suffering

2) The cause of this is holding on to things that won't last forever like they will.

3) Suffering isn't inevitable.

4) Getting the idea nothing lasts forever, knowing it will go, and enjoying it for what it is while you have means you don't suffer when it's gone.

 

 

From what I've been told it's not a bad transliteration...

[Legion]

BTW my take on the 4 Noble Truths

 

1) There is suffering

2) The cause of this is holding on to things that won't last forever like they will.

3) Suffering isn't inevitable.

4) Getting the idea nothing lasts forever, knowing it will go, and enjoying it for what it is while you have means you don't suffer when it's gone.

Not that I am wise, but this strikes me a being part with wisdom.

[NearlyInsane]

BTW my take on the 4 Noble Truths

 

1) There is suffering

2) The cause of this is holding on to things that won't last forever like they will.

3) Suffering isn't inevitable.

4) Getting the idea nothing lasts forever, knowing it will go, and enjoying it for what it is while you have means you don't suffer when it's gone.

 

 

From what I've been told it's not a bad transliteration...

I would agree w/ all but #4 - there's a lot more to cessation of suffering than being in tune w/ rules 1-3, but it's not a bad start.

[Grandpa Harley]

BTW my take on the 4 Noble Truths

 

1) There is suffering

2) The cause of this is holding on to things that won't last forever like they will.

3) Suffering isn't inevitable.

4) Getting the idea nothing lasts forever, knowing it will go, and enjoying it for what it is while you have means you don't suffer when it's gone.

 

 

From what I've been told it's not a bad transliteration...

I would agree w/ all but #4 - there's a lot more to cessation of suffering than being in tune w/ rules 1-3, but it's not a bad start.

 

The truths are sort of a sequence.

 

1 is the posit. Life can be shit, not all the time, but it can be... but why is it shit?

2 - lot of it is treating things like they'll last forever when people and animals die, cloth wears out, things break etc is why

3 - OK you can avoid this

4 - you'll feel a lot better most of the time if you get on with enjoying stuff for what it is and not harping on how crap it is now it's gone... to think it was forever was just being dumb.

[Grandpa Harley]

BTW my take on the 4 Noble Truths

 

1) There is suffering

2) The cause of this is holding on to things that won't last forever like they will.

3) Suffering isn't inevitable.

4) Getting the idea nothing lasts forever, knowing it will go, and enjoying it for what it is while you have means you don't suffer when it's gone.

Not that I am wise, but this strikes me a being part with wisdom.

 

Thanks...I think...

[Legion]

BTW my take on the 4 Noble Truths

 

1) There is suffering

2) The cause of this is holding on to things that won't last forever like they will.

3) Suffering isn't inevitable.

4) Getting the idea nothing lasts forever, knowing it will go, and enjoying it for what it is while you have means you don't suffer when it's gone.

Not that I am wise, but this strikes me a being part with wisdom.

 

Thanks...I think...

Steal from the best Gramps... Steal from the best.

[Yaoi Huntress Earth]

It reminds me of an interesting lesson the Ba'Hai mention that there must be a balance between logic and faith. Without logic we fall into superstitions and become the tools of charletians, but without faith we fall into materialism.

[Amethyst]

What exactly is wrong with not believing in superstition? One can live an ethical life without god belief. One can also have a sense of wonder without god belief. I feel that every time I look up at the stars, but now I don't imagine that an invisible man is looking down at the same time. I would say that if there is a middle ground, it is to find a philosophy that you can stick with, be it Buddhism, Humanism, or whatever.

[woodsmoke]

Religion should not try and tell us what is real or not - but it can and should enrich our lives with a sense of wonder and reverence, something that science cannot really offer (it is outside of its scope). So Atheism shouldn't try and be politics either. There is a place for spiritual reverence, when it is an atheist form of 'spirituality'.

 

This is what we call a fallacy.

 

To say science can't inspire a sense of awe and wonder is positively untrue. If you don't believe me, go read just about any book by Carl Sagan. Or, especially if you're more visually inclined, watch his Cosmos series. Or watch the Planet Earth documentary released earlier this year. Or just about any episode of National Geographic, Nova, Nature, or a similar program. Or, hell, go climb a mountain and just sit for a few hours as nature does its thing around you.

 

All of these can be truly awesome experiences without the slightest notion of anything "spiritual," and have been countless times for me.

 

You also seem to make the mistake of attributing more to Buddhism than is really there, but Jun is much better equipped to deal with that, so I'll second Gramps' paging and look forward to his input.

[Grandpa Harley]

As I've said before... I find the idea of a creator robs the universe of wonder. If it was all made, then fuck it, it's supposed to be impressive... but blind chance... now THAT is impressive...

[♦ nivek ♦]

First was the Case, the case was sized tight.

 

Then came the Primer, it was made to seat in its place of momentary firey glory

 

Dry chemicals, made to perpetuate the Primer's momentary glow, to make gasses in copious quantity

 

Base metals, blended into a form to function, accepting the gasses given from the Primer's momentary blaze

 

The projectile, given to find an accepting spot, to be launched with purpose by Intelligent Design....

 

Nahh, don'ta need no superstitions to understand most of chemistry, ballistics, logistics, human intervention, inventiveness, etc...

 

John Moses Browning is all I need....

 

 

kFL

[מה טבו]

I'll have to second the motion that spirituality is not required for wonder. I've been moved to tears and had my breath taken away by the study of Cosmology. Get a feel for physics and higher mathematics - you'll never see the universe in the same way again.

 

If you want wonder without theism, look at the world around you. Consider the magnitude of the universe - the beauty and power of mathematics - the awesome mechanics of the living body - the simultaneous smallness and infinity of the space between atoms in our universe. Consider all of the processes that are required for you to see the light from your screen, or to hear a voice - the waves and atoms involved. Contemplate what you perceive as beauty - and what makes that up. Contemplate the fantastic dichotomy of order and chaos inherent in our existence. None of this is religious, or even really "spiritual." It's just looking around and being amazed.

 

Spirituality and philosophy abide in similar realms. These two are in the realm of the abstract - the esoteric - the idea - the stuff beyond the physical matter around us. There is a place for the spiritual and the philosophical, but if what you're seeking is awe and mystery, a good book on the fabric of existence or theories of consciousness will blow your mind.

[Evolution_beyond]

Religion should not try and tell us what is real or not - but it can and should enrich our lives with a sense of wonder and reverence, something that science cannot really offer (it is outside of its scope). So Atheism shouldn't try and be politics either. There is a place for spiritual reverence, when it is an atheist form of 'spirituality'.

 

This is what we call a fallacy.

 

To say science can't inspire a sense of awe and wonder is positively untrue. If you don't believe me, go read just about any book by Carl Sagan. Or, especially if you're more visually inclined, watch his Cosmos series. Or watch the Planet Earth documentary released earlier this year. Or just about any episode of National Geographic, Nova, Nature, or a similar program. Or, hell, go climb a mountain and just sit for a few hours as nature does its thing around you.

 

All of these can be truly awesome experiences without the slightest notion of anything "spiritual," and have been countless times for me.

 

You also seem to make the mistake of attributing more to Buddhism than is really there, but Jun is much better equipped to deal with that, so I'll second Gramps' paging and look forward to his input.

 

 

Science simply hypothesises and tests what is real or what is not. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

It is human reflection upon the findings of science that brings the awe and the wonder. It is human experience of nature itself that brings the awe and the wonder.

 

It is outside the scope of science to provide us with a sense of wonder and reverance. It is not the job of science to do this. Science tries to examine reality, to give us a better idea of what is real. It does not set out to do anything else. If people happen to find a sense of wonder in what it reveals, then all well and good. But it is not science that caused us to reflect upon its findings in this way, neither does science attempt to do this.

 

Do not confuse the brilliant prose that is often written to communicate the findings of science to the layman with the scientific method itself. Any prose that outlines something, is a kind of writing and therefore a kind of art. It is the job of art to create the sense of wonder and awe. Also basic human experience and the spiritual yearning that humans have can also create this sense of wonder and awe.

 

Science can be the subject of the awe - but it is not the cause of it.

[Evolution_beyond]

As I've said before... I find the idea of a creator robs the universe of wonder. If it was all made, then fuck it, it's supposed to be impressive... but blind chance... now THAT is impressive...

 

Now when did I ever claim that there was a Creator?

 

I talked of a religious approach to life. I made it damn clear that this didn't necessarily involve any theism or belief in the supernatural.

[Grandpa Harley]

As I've said before... I find the idea of a creator robs the universe of wonder. If it was all made, then fuck it, it's supposed to be impressive... but blind chance... now THAT is impressive...

 

Now when did I ever claim that there was a Creator?

 

I talked of a religious approach to life. I made it damn clear that this didn't necessarily involve any theism or belief in the supernatural.

 

CAINT YEW SEE AHM TESTIFYIN' HEYAH?

 

 

Hells teeth, you can't AGREE with someone without getting a new asshole ripped in this place....

 

I still love you in sordid ways involving strange, unfeasibly large, spiked vibrating devices and nipple clamps....

[Jun]

Sorry to come into this late, I'm on the opposite side of the world and often have to play catch-up!

 

I watched Seven Years in Tibet for the first time last night. And I experienced some of the same feelings I had when I watched Kundun a few years ago.

 

I highly recommend you borrow, rent or buy "Tibet, Cry of The Snow Lion."

 

Religion should not try and tell us what is real or not - but it can and should enrich our lives with a sense of wonder and reverance, something that science cannot really offer (it is outside of its scope). So Atheism shouldn't try and be politics either. There is a place for spiritual reverence, when it is an atheist form of 'spirituality'.

 

Buddhism doesn't try to tell us anything. The Buddha said, "Here, look at this. This is what I've found, give it a try and see if it works." Everyone here is probably sick of my heretical ranting, but I'll say it again - If it has rituals and superstition, and looks like a religion; then it's NOT actually Buddhism. If you dig deep into what the Buddha taught - throwing away all the cultural and religious baggage that has been added over the last 2,550 odd years, you'll find that Buddhism isn't really all that "religious."

 

The religious "Buddhism" that is to be seen all over the place is what my teacher likes to call "short-cut Buddhism" or "dancing Buddhism."

 

You see Buddhist practice is actually pretty hard and it is really dull.

 

Who wants to go through life being aware of what is going on all around them? Who wants to make up their own mind and accept responsibility for their own actions when there are others to tell you what to do and believe? Who doesn't want to blame someone else when things go wrong? Who wants to live honestly and openly when you can just follow some scripture or perform some funky magical ritual?

 

Buddhism is an affirmation of the real world, the world as it is. Unlike religions, it doesn't try to paint over reality with fictions and stories of supernatural ideologies. Buddhism instructs us not to appeal to some "other world" that is somehow better or more "ideal."

 

Buddhism can provide this middle ground (the Buddha called it the 'middle path' actually) but I'm sure that the human species can come up with another form of post-theistic religion in the future - and I think we probably will.

 

Who knows? And then a few thousand years after that it will have adopted all sorts of religious, supernatural rituals and the originator will have been elevated to the status of deity. Humans have the uncanny need to add superficial superstitious stuff.

 

PS. I'd become a Buddhist but I fear I'd have to give up eating meat, and I don't really want to do that

 

I'm not a vegetarian, nor are any of the other few million or so Japanese that I practice with. See here - Common Misconceptions About Buddhism.

 

Gramps has a good take on the 4 noble truths. And it's HIS take on it, so no-one can say he's wrong. There is NO wrong - or right. Buddhism has no set doctrine. The teachings are flexible. It is open to interpretation. That's why there are so many sutras!

 

Gramps' take on the 4 Noble Truths:

 

1) There is suffering

2) The cause of this is holding on to things that won't last forever like they will.

3) Suffering isn't inevitable.

4) Getting the idea nothing lasts forever, knowing it will go, and enjoying it for what it is while you have means you don't suffer when it's gone.

 

The First Noble Truth is what usually gets people. "There is suffering." Quite often we find it translated into English as "All life is suffering" but that is incorrect. The Pali word used is Dukkha (Pali was the language used by the Buddha and the first language used to record the Buddha's teachings). The Sanskrit term is Duhkha.

 

Now Dukkha has several meanings, imperfection, impermanence, insubstantial. In common usage it also means pain, sorrow, suffering or misery. It is obvious that the First Noble Truth as descibed by the Buddha was referring to the common usage of suffering or misery, but he also alluded to the meanings of imperfection, pain, sorrow, and impermanence when talking about the Four Noble Truths.

 

The Buddha never denied happiness or enjoyment in life, in fact he taught that we should embrace it by doing away with suffering. The Buddha when asked to explain the First Noble Truth said, "Whatever is impermanent is dukkha." What he means is "Whatever cannot last brings us suffering."

 

We try so hard to forget that all that we love and cherish will one day end. We try so hard to believe that we have all our loved ones and belongings forever, and that as long as we have them we are happy. When we are deprived of having our possessions, our loved ones, we suffer. I might add here that dukkha is a mental condition. It is not used in reference to physical suffering or pain. Physical suffering is a part of life, it is reality.

 

The cause of this suffering as explained in the second Noble truth is greed, or craving.

 

What exactly is wrong with not believing in superstition?

 

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with having superstitions - if you don't kid yourself into believing in them!

 

All of these can be truly awesome experiences without the slightest notion of anything "spiritual," and have been countless times for me.

 

I tend to agree. It could also rely on your personal definition of "spiritual." There is no one orthodox definition.

[Grandpa Harley]

Superstitions - my irrational things

 

1) I don't point at rainbows

2) I touch wood if I see a new moon through a window...

[Sparrow]

Text ...

 

Wow. That was really good. You really are an astute person.

 

I suppose I could only say that if we as a species must have one of the beliefs that are already in existance then Buddhism would be the one I'd vote for.

 

However, if humans must have something to believe in. Something that defiens us, then shouldn't it be one that is supporting of what we witness i the universe? Something that inspires us as a species to greatness for ALL things?

 

Buddhism, whilst not bad, still is one of these "Kismet" beliefs that makes the believer accept it's fate. Wouldn't it be better if we had one that channeled all our "fighting and pioneering spirit" into something that made th life of all in some way better and more fullfilling?

 

Just a thought, but thanks for the really cool post. It was good.

 

Spatz

[R. S. Martin]

If atheism means lack of belief in God or deities, it has nothing to do with the psychological/neurological processes of the brain and body that allow us to experience the wonders or the so-called religious experience. We should not deny having been developed in a way that allows the pleasant stimulation of these processes. Ritual stimulates them. People did not know that it was merely processes within their own psyche so they thought it was God or some other invisible entities. Most people continue to think this way to the present day. Only very recent science has found the source of these natural processes. Some rituals are sermons, prayer, music or singing. These are part and parcel of the Christian religion and of many other religions. I think there is a reason for this--it stimulates the "religious experience" or these natural processes for a large percentage of humanity. Thus, if you so choose, you can be an atheist and enjoy the stimulation of these natural processes.

[Grandpa Harley]

Actually, India under the rule of King Akosha was something of a golden age after he embraced Buddhism. The caste system became an interesting diversion but not taken seriously, there was an increase in places of learning and hospitals, even programs to help the destitute. Basically it was better than Greece since there was no slave economy... So to declare Buddism as a 'kismet' belief is to ignore the history, and take what was largely a German protestant scholarly (Max Muller et al ) view of what was a pretty good time

[Skankboy]

Buddhism, whilst not bad, still is one of these "Kismet" beliefs that makes the believer accept it's fate.

 

I would contend the opposite is true. Buddhism allows you to take control of your fate, rather than just saying "god says so" and leaving it at that. The entire core of Buddhism is self-improvement and, by extension, the improvement of the human race as a whole. True, progress may suffer in some respects, but I think it would be for best reasons: we would be more aware of the world and the consequences of our actions and thus less likely to rush blindly into decisions.