Challenge The Christian

[Kat22]

There are many reasons for Ex-Christians to abandon their faith. All seem legitimate in their eyes and I will not be so bold as to argue that which I did not experience myself. However, whether one leaves the faith first, and then builds a case for why it was a good idea; or builds the case and then leaves, there seems to be good arguments out there.

 

So I am looking for ONE person, who has studied and reflected, to open a conversation with me. So far, I have seen little more than convincing opinions as to why certain things cannot be trusted.

 

So, here are my rules (and whoever is chosen can add on if they feel the need):

 

1. Only one person will be chosen to respond. Otherwise I don't have enough time to complete my replies and I will end up closing the discussion.

 

2. Documentation and fact, not personal opinions (unless said opinion is mutually agreed upon as acceptable)

 

3. No personal attacks (though I doubt I will have to worry about this one if Mythra ends up being the Ex-Christian representative). All inappropriate comments will be ignored and, if neccessary, so will the poster.

 

4. You must at least believe that Jesus is a historical figure. Otherwise it a waste of time.

 

5. I need someone patient. With my schedule, sometimes I can't respond for quite a few days.

 

In order to decide what direction this discussion will take, I open with this question:

 

What biblical or extra-biblical documentation, supporting the Christian faith, do you draw into question?

 

Nominations are open.... NOW!

 

 

I nominate Mythra. Any other nominations?

[GraphicsGuy]

According to an old thread I just read, Mythra doesn't believe that Jesus was a historical figure...did he change his mind?

[Antlerman]

Ok Kat, if you plan to discuss as you stated above I may be willing to take up the challenge. I promise no sarcastic responses in discussion with you. I will be above board as I am in all my debates. Mythra is out because he doesn't believe Jesus was historical. I however don't have a problem working off that as an accepted premise.

 

If you're interested in the sort of challenge and insights that I can offer (read my discussion with Buddy Ferris in this forum for one example), then let me know and I'll consider the terms of this with you. I would be more than delighted to offer a frank and honest discussion with you why Christianity failed for me.

 

Respectfully,

 

AM

[Mythra]

I'm not interested in a one-on-one debate. Although I'm pretty well versed in the arguments and problems associated with the HJ position and the MJ position, I'm not debate material. If the thread wants to move to the colliseum, I'd participate and try to play nice.

 

But, for the record, I have budged slightly from my mythicist position. There are a couple of problematic issues there that don't square up.

[Kat22]

Ok Kat, if you plan to discuss as you stated above I may be willing to take up the challenge. I promise no sarcastic responses in discussion with you. I will be above board as I am in all my debates. Mythra is out because he doesn't believe Jesus was historical. I however don't have a problem working off that as an accepted premise.

 

If you're interested in the sort of challenge and insights that I can offer (read my discussion with Buddy Ferris in this forum for one example), then let me know and I'll consider the terms of this with you. I would be more than delighted to offer a frank and honest discussion with you why Christianity failed for me.

 

Respectfully,

 

AM

 

Fair enough. I accept.

 

So, what biblical or extra-biblical documentation, supporting the Christian faith, do you draw into question?

[Antlerman]

Ok Kat, if you plan to discuss as you stated above I may be willing to take up the challenge. I promise no sarcastic responses in discussion with you. I will be above board as I am in all my debates. Mythra is out because he doesn't believe Jesus was historical. I however don't have a problem working off that as an accepted premise.

 

If you're interested in the sort of challenge and insights that I can offer (read my discussion with Buddy Ferris in this forum for one example), then let me know and I'll consider the terms of this with you. I would be more than delighted to offer a frank and honest discussion with you why Christianity failed for me.

 

Respectfully,

 

AM

 

Fair enough. I accept.

 

So, what biblical or extra-biblical documentation, supporting the Christian faith, do you draw into question?

Ok, now that you accept me as a possible challenger, let's consider the terms of this before I actually agree to this.

 

Your topic is not well defined.

 

1. The subject title is "Challenge the Christian". Am I challenging you, or are you challenging me?

 

2. Your opening line asks what the reasons for why Ex-Christians leave the faith (should read instead as why Christians leave their faith and become Ex-Christians, since Ex-Christians don't leave the Christian faith, Christians do).

 

3. You then state in your condition #2 that this should not be about personal opinions, which to me is impossible for it not to be since the question seems to be asking us our personal reasons why we left the faith. All I can offer you is my thoughts about why it failed and continues to fail for me. Are you asking how I find support for my thoughts? If so, there are both intellectual and emotional reasons, so we'd better narrow the field down to one topic since that list is quite long, and quite involved. If so, it may be best for me to offer a topic out of that list that I'd be happy to discuss.

 

4. On your condition #4, you state that I have to believe that Jesus was a historical figure. I've already indicated I would not have a problem taking that position (even though I don't rule out the heavenly-only Jesus hypothesis). I just want to be fair to you by clarifying that assumed position of historicity should not construed by you to be an acceptance by me of the Biblical account of his life at face value as recorded on those pages. I do not accept that.

 

I see that the Gospel Jesus character may have had some historical person, or possibly persons that stories of miracles and magic were later additions by religious devotees. In other words, pointing to the Bible as historical evidence to be taken at face value is not something I'd be willing to do. You can however use the Bible as maybe pointing to something historical. The Bible cannot be used to argue for itself.

 

 

You ask "What biblical or extra-biblical documentation, supporting the Christian faith, do you draw into question?" Again we're going to narrow the field down quite a distance to make this a manageable and readable discussion. My first thought was to say, "Almost everything", so obviously we need to focus better.

 

Additionally, you need to narrow your definitions down in that question. Which Christian faith? If you were to argue that parts of the Bible talks to the hearts of men, and that it's pages are more words of inspiration to draw people to God, rather than to be taken as literal stories (as many, if not the majority of Christians argue), then I would have a vastly different response than I would to someone who argues the Bible is scientifically accurate and that mainstream science is wrong because the Bible says differently. You see, I don't take as much of an exception to liberal Christians as I do to literalists. I don't accept the default assumptions you do in defining what Christianity is.

 

I suppose I could say that the Theory of Evolution is one huge "extra-biblical" reason why I saw that Biblical literalism is a bad reason for faith. Another would be the commonality of faith and experiences in humans outside Christianity. Or perhaps we could discuss that question I believe I asked you one year ago before you left for one year, and then came back recently and I re-asked at that time, but was never discussed then either; the question I have yet to have any Christian offer a substantial response to:

"What does Christianity offer humanity in this life that no other religion or philosophy can?"

 

I'd really like to discuss that topic, since that seems more than a fair question to ask, and was in fact one very large reason why I found Christianity's boasts of superior faith created by God Himself to be vacuous.

[Jennywocky]

... "What does Christianity offer humanity in this life that no other religion or philosophy can?"...

 

Wow, you did a bang-up job on framing the discussion.

 

I, for one, would love to watch a discussion on your proposed topic unfold. That, perhaps, is one of the most prominent questions in my mind as I try to recover some sense of value and direction in my life now that I have moved away from my conservative Christian roots as a foundation.

[Guest end3]

With all due respect, how can you argue that question....

[Japedo]

With all due respect, how can you argue that question....

 

How can you not? If it's the one true ™ way, it should surly separate itself without question shouldn't it? I think it gets to the crux of all the issues at hand, I'm for AM topic, I look forward to it.

[quicksand]

4. You must at least believe that Jesus is a historical figure. Otherwise it a waste of time.

Really? I sense a fiat here... e.g. Jesus lived so walking on water is possible and big floating talking heads in the sky as well as not too mention walking around after being dead for three days therefore Christianity is true.

 

Yep. I see where this is going.

 

 

Oh yeah, excuse my cynicism.

[Grandpa Harley]

Is this the thread, or is it the peanut gallery?

[Ouroboros]

I moved this discussion to the Col. since it's more of an open discussion for what to debate in the Arena. This way it's like a pre-debate/pre-peanut thread.

[Grandpa Harley]

*puts on his beer hat and big foam hand*

 

Let the games commence...

[♦ nivek ♦]

Thanks Hans. Kat and Antlerman have yet to agree to foundational rules for discussion.

 

Arena sand reserved for participants. Peanut Gallery for beer pissing under grandstands and floor for shells.

 

kL

[Ouroboros]

Thanks Hans. Kat and Antlerman have yet to agree to foundational rules for discussion.

No prob. K.

 

I like Antlermans engagement in these debates. to you A-man.

[Kat22]

Before I answer Antlerman, I would like to respectfully point out that this is a One on One debate/discussion. As long as Antlerman has officially opted in, I would appreciate no outside comments. I know that might be hard but I am not looking for either one of us to be heckled or mocked (directly or indirectly); I am looking for a decent discussion void of outside opinions or comments. If anyone, from either the Christian side OR Ex-Christian side, has anything they feel should be added, please send a message to the one that supports your view (as long as that is OK with Antlerman) and make your information aware to us in that manner. Thank you for respecting this discussion.

 

1. The subject title is "Challenge the Christian". Am I challenging you, or are you challenging me?

 

Well, since I am the Christian, I would be the one challenged. But since it is meant to be a discussion/debate, I am hoping that I will at least be able to hold my ground and post interesting facts/information that might challenge you as well.

 

2. Your opening line asks what the reasons for why Ex-Christians leave the faith (should read instead as why Christians leave their faith and become Ex-Christians, since Ex-Christians don't leave the Christian faith, Christians do).

 

That wasn't actually my question. But, as far as Christians becoming Ex-Christians, since you understood what I meant, it might be best if we focused on the core issue (whatever that turns out to be). Otherwise both of us will be swamped trying to correct errors that, as long as they are understood, don't really effect the direction of the debate.

 

3. You then state in your condition #2 that this should not be about personal opinions, which to me is impossible for it not to be since the question seems to be asking us our personal reasons why we left the faith. All I can offer you is my thoughts about why it failed and continues to fail for me. Are you asking how I find support for my thoughts? If so, there are both intellectual and emotional reasons, so we'd better narrow the field down to one topic since that list is quite long, and quite involved. If so, it may be best for me to offer a topic out of that list that I'd be happy to discuss.

 

The question isn't what the personal reasons were for leaving the faith. It was "What biblical or extra-biblical documentation, supporting the Christian faith, do you draw into question?" I think I should add, to be more clear, "...and why?"

 

4. On your condition #4, you state that I have to believe that Jesus was a historical figure. I've already indicated I would not have a problem taking that position (even though I don't rule out the heavenly-only Jesus hypothesis). I just want to be fair to you by clarifying that assumed position of historicity should not construed by you to be an acceptance by me of the Biblical account of his life at face value as recorded on those pages. I do not accept that.

 

Understood.

 

I see that the Gospel Jesus character may have had some historical person, or possibly persons that stories of miracles and magic were later additions by religious devotees. In other words, pointing to the Bible as historical evidence to be taken at face value is not something I'd be willing to do. You can however use the Bible as maybe pointing to something historical. The Bible cannot be used to argue for itself.

 

I agree. If I use a quote, from the bible, I should be able to back it up by extra-biblical documentation and facts. However, I am thinking that our first focus will not be on the bible itself anyway... though I could be wrong.

 

 

You ask "What biblical or extra-biblical documentation, supporting the Christian faith, do you draw into question?" Again we're going to narrow the field down quite a distance to make this a manageable and readable discussion. My first thought was to say, "Almost everything", so obviously we need to focus better.

 

How about the council of Nicaea. A lot of Atheists, Ex-Christians, Mormons & JWs seem to think that the Trinitarian Christian faith was born there. So documents/teachings before that time period would narrow it down quite a bit.

 

Additionally, you need to narrow your definitions down in that question. Which Christian faith?

 

Sorry about that. I must have a more broad definition of what a "Christian" is than a lot of people. I don't care about denomination or interpretation of the bible when I think of someone as a Christian. For all I care, you don't even have to attend church. Catholics, methodists, Baptists etc. Doesn't matter. In my view, what makes someone a Christian is that the believe in the Triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and that Christ was God in the flesh, died for our sins, was raised on the third day and is the Savior of us all. So, when I am talking about Christians, that is what I mean.

 

I suppose I could say that the Theory of Evolution is one huge "extra-biblical" reason why I saw that Biblical literalism is a bad reason for faith. Another would be the commonality of faith and experiences in humans outside Christianity. Or perhaps we could discuss that question I believe I asked you one year ago before you left for one year, and then came back recently and I re-asked at that time, but was never discussed then either; the question I have yet to have any Christian offer a substantial response to:

"What does Christianity offer humanity in this life that no other religion or philosophy can?"

 

I'd really like to discuss that topic, since that seems more than a fair question to ask, and was in fact one very large reason why I found Christianity's boasts of superior faith created by God Himself to be vacuous.

 

Fair enough. Though this isn't really something that can be brought into documentation form, I will answer it.

 

It's not about what Christianity can offer.... for Christians still live in, and learn so much from, this world. We can fall, just like anyone else, when we do not keep our feet firmly planted on the Rock. No, Christianity is merely the body of the One who offers it all... Christ... It's all about what Christ can offer humanity, in this life, that no one else can offer.

 

Christ offers one thing that everyone needs and few truly find... hope.

 

Not only for eternal joy and life, but for this life's troubles as well. No one else has ever offered as much hope as Christ. To see your world come crashing down before you and still hold joy in your heart because your hope is not in the things you posses, or the people who are in your life... but in One that will never abandon you. He will stand beside you, walk with you and, sometimes, even carry you when everything else fades away. Christ is the Hope of the world.

[SWIM]

Before I answer Antlerman, I would like to respectfully point out that this is a One on One debate/discussion. As long as Antlerman has officially opted in, I would appreciate no outside comments.

 

Hey, duh, why not actually READ the rules of the Arena. We all *know* its one on one, outside posts get deleted. We discuss your butt stomping in the "peanut gallery".

 

Reading... It really is worth your time...

[Grandpa Harley]

" Before I answer Antlerman, I would like to respectfully point out that this is a One on One debate/discussion. As long as Antlerman has officially opted in, I would appreciate no outside comments. I know that might be hard but I am not looking for either one of us to be heckled or mocked (directly or indirectly); I am looking for a decent discussion void of outside opinions or comments. If anyone, from either the Christian side OR Ex-Christian side, has anything they feel should be added, please send a message to the one that supports your view (as long as that is OK with Antlerman) and make your information aware to us in that manner. Thank you for respecting this discussion."

 

Condescending nonce... this is the thread discussing the Rulez.... and usually Skip sets that up, and enforces the mano-a-mano rules with complete fairness... usually the people piling into the ring with the chair are other fundy ponces with an axe to grind... so, stop making an arse of yourself...

[Ouroboros]

Before I answer Antlerman, I would like to respectfully point out that this is a One on One debate/discussion. As long as Antlerman has officially opted in, I would appreciate no outside comments. I know that might be hard but I am not looking for either one of us to be heckled or mocked (directly or indirectly); I am looking for a decent discussion void of outside opinions or comments. If anyone, from either the Christian side OR Ex-Christian side, has anything they feel should be added, please send a message to the one that supports your view (as long as that is OK with Antlerman) and make your information aware to us in that manner. Thank you for respecting this discussion.

Actually, you stepped outside of the rules of the board a bit.

 

This thread was started by you in the Arena, while only a moderator is allowed to do that.

 

Therefore we moved this thread to the Colosseum until you and a person had accepted your challenge.

 

Now when it is settled, a moderator has to open the debate topic and the peanut topic in the Arena, with the rules of engagement for the debate. This has not been done yet. And usually it is Kevin who does this, and I think we should keep it that way.

 

So right now, the status of the situation is that you have to wait for Kevin (Skip) to create the appropriate topics where the game can begin.

 

Until then. This specific thread is still open for everyone to participate in.

 

--edit--

 

And to clarify a bit more. The rules doesn't explain this particular part, which it should, but it's kind of a de-facto standard we have silently agreed upon in this site.

 

Kevin/Dave, maybe we should add that to the rules of the Arena to make it more clear, that the firs step is for the debate proposal to be submitted to a moderator, and the debate will not engage until a moderator have created the related topics and both/all parties have agreed upon the rules of enagement? We maybe just need to make that a bit more clear in there. I don't like random (especially Christian) posters start threads for debates in there and there's no moderator yet to take on the task. It should be clear that it has to be approved and a moderator willing to take care of it.

[Deva]

Christ offers one thing that everyone needs and few truly find... hope.

 

Not only for eternal joy and life, but for this life's troubles as well. No one else has ever offered as much hope as Christ. To see your world come crashing down before you and still hold joy in your heart because your hope is not in the things you posses, or the people who are in your life... but in One that will never abandon you. He will stand beside you, walk with you and, sometimes, even carry you when everything else fades away. Christ is the Hope of the world.

 

Since Hans says we can comment---

 

I just HOPE there is a better argument in the offing that what we see here. AM is going to take you apart.

 

Hope- the human imagination projecting into the future a favorable outcome to a situation it doesn't want to deal with or face in the present.

 

Only someone with plenty of food to eat and a roof over their head would talk about "hope is not in the things you possess.." And see if you "hold joy in your heart" if your child gets murdered.

 

Get real. Christians are just as hopeless as the rest of humanity, given the appropriate circumstances. You even seem to acknowlege the fact by saying "few truly find...hope." That's OK, it is vastly overrated.

[Antlerman]

1. The subject title is "Challenge the Christian". Am I challenging you, or are you challenging me?

 

Well, since I am the Christian, I would be the one challenged. But since it is meant to be a discussion/debate, I am hoping that I will at least be able to hold my ground and post interesting facts/information that might challenge you as well.

I should clarify that this discussion at this point is a discussion of the terms and rules, so forgive other’s participation at this moment. The actually discussion will get started in the Arena with clean post. I’ll assume that I’ll start the topic fresh and clean without other member’s comments in it. Besides I’d like to better state my position in an opening post.

 

Of course you are allowed to hold your ground and offer challenges. This is my hope in any discussion, to be challenged in order to gain new insights. It’s what makes life an adventure. I hope you feel the same way. I always strive to keep an open mind. It’s the only way to grow.

 

I see that the Gospel Jesus character may have had some historical person, or possibly persons that stories of miracles and magic were later additions by religious devotees. In other words, pointing to the Bible as historical evidence to be taken at face value is not something I'd be willing to do. You can however use the Bible as maybe pointing to something historical. The Bible cannot be used to argue for itself.

 

I agree. If I use a quote, from the bible, I should be able to back it up by extra-biblical documentation and facts. However, I am thinking that our first focus will not be on the bible itself anyway... though I could be wrong.

Understood. You are free also to quote from the Bible as reflective of your beliefs, of course. But I agree that our first focus is far more from the human life side of things.

 

You ask "What biblical or extra-biblical documentation, supporting the Christian faith, do you draw into question?" Again we're going to narrow the field down quite a distance to make this a manageable and readable discussion. My first thought was to say, "Almost everything", so obviously we need to focus better.

 

How about the council of Nicaea. A lot of Atheists, Ex-Christians, Mormons & JWs seem to think that the Trinitarian Christian faith was born there. So documents/teachings before that time period would narrow it down quite a bit.

Well it is a mistake to believe the Council of Nicea is where the Trinitarian Doctrine was born. It was obviously in existence before this as the Council was to settle the dispute about it. But I think it’s fair if we’re going to look at Christian belief we look at everything from 1 Corinthians, all the way up to teachings today. All these things combined define Christianity in the world today.

.

Additionally, you need to narrow your definitions down in that question. Which Christian faith?

 

Sorry about that. I must have a more broad definition of what a "Christian" is than a lot of people. I don't care about denomination or interpretation of the bible when I think of someone as a Christian. For all I care, you don't even have to attend church. Catholics, methodists, Baptists etc. Doesn't matter. In my view, what makes someone a Christian is that the believe in the Triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and that Christ was God in the flesh, died for our sins, was raised on the third day and is the Savior of us all. So, when I am talking about Christians, that is what I mean.

Is it fair to define a Christian as someone who believes Jesus is the Son of God and that salvation to God comes through him? The Bible itself does not appear to define a Christian as someone who believes in the Trinity doctrine, simply what I stated in the previous sentence. The Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t accept the Trinity doctrine, but are considered Christian by virtue of believing Jesus saves and should be followed. The same thing is true with Modelistic Monarchianism which sees that Jesus is God the Father come in human flesh. They too believe Jesus saves and should be followed.

 

I’m just trying to be clear that when I speak of Christians, it isn’t only ones adhere to certain church doctrines, like the Trinity. That clearly is a matter of church doctrine decided on by church councils interpreting scripture, just as believing in predestination versus free election is a doctrine of church orthodoxy decided by councils. I would prefer to hold all believe in Jesus to the same light, rather than dividing out which Christian is a real one by virtue of Church Orthodoxy. If this is a stumbling block, I might be able to make some concessions for the sake of discussion.

 

"What does Christianity offer humanity in this life that no other religion or philosophy can?"

 

I'd really like to discuss that topic, since that seems more than a fair question to ask, and was in fact one very large reason why I found Christianity's boasts of superior faith created by God Himself to be vacuous.

 

Fair enough. Though this isn't really something that can be brought into documentation form, I will answer it.

 

It's not about what Christianity can offer.... for Christians still live in, and learn so much from, this world. We can fall, just like anyone else, when we do not keep our feet firmly planted on the Rock. No, Christianity is merely the body of the One who offers it all... Christ... It's all about what Christ can offer humanity, in this life, that no one else can offer.

 

Christ offers one thing that everyone needs and few truly find... hope.

 

Not only for eternal joy and life, but for this life's troubles as well. No one else has ever offered as much hope as Christ. To see your world come crashing down before you and still hold joy in your heart because your hope is not in the things you posses, or the people who are in your life... but in One that will never abandon you. He will stand beside you, walk with you and, sometimes, even carry you when everything else fades away. Christ is the Hope of the world.

I’ll not respond at this point, as I’ll plan to put together an opening post for the Arena. You can copy and paste this into a response to that, or reword or add to it more later.

 

Thanks,

 

AM

 

P.S. My schedule too can get busy lately, so I too may have a few day delay between some posts, but will try to keep things going as best I can.

[Kat22]

Well it is a mistake to believe the Council of Nicaea is where the Trinitarian Doctrine was born. It was obviously in existence before this as the Council was to settle the dispute about it. But I think it’s fair if we’re going to look at Christian belief we look at everything from 1 Corinthians, all the way up to teachings today. All these things combined define Christianity in the world today.

 

That is fair, but not narrowed down enough.... maybe this would be a good place to start...

 

I have been told that the Christian faith is not the same now as it was when it originally started. That the original doctrine did not include a teaching that Christ is the Son of God and God Himself. Do you conquer with this belief? If so, what documentation lead you to this belief?

 

Would this be a good debate starter question?

 

Is it fair to define a Christian as someone who believes Jesus is the Son of God and that salvation to God comes through him? The Bible itself does not appear to define a Christian as someone who believes in the Trinity doctrine, simply what I stated in the previous sentence. The Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t accept the Trinity doctrine, but are considered Christian by virtue of believing Jesus saves and should be followed. The same thing is true with Modelistic Monarchianism which sees that Jesus is God the Father come in human flesh. They too believe Jesus saves and should be followed.

 

I’m just trying to be clear that when I speak of Christians, it isn’t only ones adhere to certain church doctrines, like the Trinity. That clearly is a matter of church doctrine decided on by church councils interpreting scripture, just as believing in predestination versus free election is a doctrine of church orthodoxy decided by councils. I would prefer to hold all believe in Jesus to the same light, rather than dividing out which Christian is a real one by virtue of Church Orthodoxy. If this is a stumbling block, I might be able to make some concessions for the sake of discussion.

 

Fair enough. My position, on Christians, is different from your own and for now we should probably leave it at that. Maybe, down the road, that will open for another kind of debate/discussion.

 

I’ll not respond at this point, as I’ll plan to put together an opening post for the Arena. You can copy and paste this into a response to that, or reword or add to it more later.

 

P.S. My schedule too can get busy lately, so I too may have a few day delay between some posts, but will try to keep things going as best I can.

 

Feel free to take as much time as you need. One more request, though...

 

Every once and a while, I might post something that turns out to be not completely accurate (i.e. misquoted). I have been accused of being a liar, when this happens (even though I am sure everyone has quoted information and then later found out that there was something amiss with what they thought to be truth) and then it is used to close off any further comments, I may make, as "just another lie". I give you my word that I will not deliberately post any quotes/information with dishonest intent. Will you agree to give me the benefit of the doubt and just inform me if I have made an error, without accusing me of lying?

 

Other than that, I look forward to this debate

[Taphophilia]

Christ offers one thing that everyone needs and few truly find... hope.

 

Not only for eternal joy and life, but for this life's troubles as well. No one else has ever offered as much hope as Christ. To see your world come crashing down before you and still hold joy in your heart because your hope is not in the things you posses, or the people who are in your life... but in One that will never abandon you. He will stand beside you, walk with you and, sometimes, even carry you when everything else fades away. Christ is the Hope of the world.

 

Since Hans says we can comment---

 

I just HOPE there is a better argument in the offing that what we see here. AM is going to take you apart.

 

Hope- the human imagination projecting into the future a favorable outcome to a situation it doesn't want to deal with or face in the present.

 

Only someone with plenty of food to eat and a roof over their head would talk about "hope is not in the things you possess.." And see if you "hold joy in your heart" if your child gets murdered.

 

Get real. Christians are just as hopeless as the rest of humanity, given the appropriate circumstances. You even seem to acknowlege the fact by saying "few truly find...hope." That's OK, it is vastly overrated.

 

Deva,

 

I love your posts.

 

Hope = Delayed Disappointment

[Grandpa Harley]

Nowt wrong with hope... pinning it on some holy zombie on a gamble for eternity is pretty damned desperate though...

 

Must be hell to think you're so special that you *should* live for ever...

[Ouroboros]

Every once and a while, I might post something that turns out to be not completely accurate (i.e. misquoted). I have been accused of being a liar, when this happens (even though I am sure everyone has quoted information and then later found out that there was something amiss with what they thought to be truth) and then it is used to close off any further comments, I may make, as "just another lie". I give you my word that I will not deliberately post any quotes/information with dishonest intent. Will you agree to give me the benefit of the doubt and just inform me if I have made an error, without accusing me of lying?

It was me who accused you of being a liar.

 

And it's based on the ideas from the Christians that created the Way of the Master. They say, if you lie once, you are a liar. If you tell something that is not true, you are lying, so hence everyone is a liar. That makes you a liar too, especially since we caught you with telling something that wasn't true. So can we really trust you to tell us any truths? After all, I just expect of you what you're God expects from you, so it's not more than you already should be used to. It's just the same standards you live by.