Who Are We? I've Had It To Here!

[Japedo]

I don't want to see the sojourners swept out with the Kratos's and 1Uniteds.

 

Me neither! I think it was pretty clear that my poll was prompted purely by the Kratos type and NOT by the Sojourner type.

 

Please note that my large FONT on a section of my comment is not for you Ruby, but for those who keep cherry picking what I say..

 

 

I'm sorry, I missed that on the poll?? Where did you make that clear? It wasn't on the poll you stated Christians, you didn't state zealots or fundys. You stated Christians which lumps in all Liberal and CINO types included, You also made the rule that only Non-Christians were allowed to participate. Again leaving out those who are NOT rabid fundys and those who have courage enough to be honest to say they are christian even if they don't comply or identify with any particular name brand.

 

 

These people have no *HOME* they identify with us on every level but for what ever reason are afraid to release the belief of JC. They believe in Jesus Christ and are honest and upfront about that but are trying to rationalize hell, death and a host of other scary things they have been programed with.

 

 

There is a very honest and candid thread posted to these people directly and is wonderfully done by Grinch (Checkmate). All of us become frustrated when people are teetering on the edge but still to afraid to look over. It is a different kind of frustration.

 

 

When one starts a new thread, it is a new topic, completely separate and in and of itself. Carrying one thread to the other to the other.. leaves a thousand posts to pour through to even know the original meaning of the one you want to reply to. It's craziness. Not everyone reads all topics and who wants to keep reading a thread where it divulges into a pissing contest of Taste great,, less filling.. Is not.. Is to... and , Vs. You stating whatever you stated about Krat is irrelevant to the New thread at hand with a new topic and should be inclusive to all of those who aren't following the novel of threads posted in order to be able to answer.

[R. S. Martin]

I also think that the Lion's Den is very therapeutic for some who cannot confront their friends and family members, for whatever reason. It is important for people to have someone they can confront, to psychologically work out their arguments until circumstances are such that they need to use those arguments in real life. I would definitely agree that the Lion's Den should be used for this purpose and that the rest of the board should not be. Christians are warned before they enter the Lion's Den. That is fair.

 

OTOH, I do not think that hating liberal Christians simply because they choose to carry the Christian label for whatever reasons, be it fear or ignorance or whatever, is productive. It does not help our cause any to be prejudiced against all Christians, whatever their stripes. However -- there are fundies that do definitely deserve our wrath. Of that, I have no doubt. But not all Christians are fundy. I would not want to see liberal Christians be kicked out. Diversity of opinion is a good thing.

 

Hating a person for the label...that's kinda weird. Labels don't make a person. Gotta look at how they behave. That is what we want others to do for us. Some of the most loving and kind and intelligent people I know are theologically fundamentalist Christians. I'm not going to hate them and be nasty to them because of what they do on a Sunday morning.

 

...parts removed for risk of libel... /Hans/

 

KRATOS IS NOT WELCOME AND BARELY TOLERATED.

[Telesmith]

If I can be allowed the indulgence of a brief digression:

 

I’m grateful for this thread in that, being still new here, it is helping me work out just how to deal with Christians, online and off. I guess there is a time to vent, reason, scold, empathize, flame and just ignore. How’s that for cherry-picking (and changing) the Babble.

 

Sorry, just felt the need to get that out there.

[Onyx]

I'm indifferent to Xtians that come and go on this site. Do I hate Christians? No. But I do like swearing and an opportunity for swearing should be never fucking wasted.

 

I try to be very civil and I try to argue my best. If a person is being uncivil, I will curse him out but that's rare.

So I say, be polite and humouring till if the Christian is rude to you of his own accord, then tell him to fuck off.

[white_raven23]

I would like to point out something that has been glossed over by most involved.

 

We have 2 open debate Forums. One is where we play nice. One is where we don't.

 

With me so far?

 

Hasn't anyone noticed the likes of Kratos, 1United, and Notscarevangelist do the majority of their posting, and start the majority of their threads...IN THE LION'S DEN.

 

They are not INTERESTED in civil debate! If that is what they really wanted, they'd be much more active in the Coliseum. They aren't. They want us to get riled and pissed JUST AS MUCH as we want to be able, every now and then, to just chew on some fundie christian ASS.

 

This all got started with Kratos whining like a bitch here. http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=20916

 

And as I pointed out in the thread...he's not the first evangelist to pull this about-face "oh-I-did't-know-what-the-Lion's-Den-was" innocent bullshit. This.Is.Nothing.New.

 

They want to rile us up, we want to vent at them. EVERYONE is happy! They get to feel sanctamoniously persecuted (which is what they want), we get to be open about how we feel in a way we really cannot in real life (so we are happy).

 

Soj, if I recall correctly, braved the gauntlet just fine. So did O_M. The only thing that's a little irritating in the Lion's Den right now is just too many threads all kinda on the same damn subject.

[Dhampir]

I think so many people here have gotten into a certain rhythm with christians that they keep engaging, and because so many are showing up at once these days, that we're skipping steps. We go straight from humoring them to cursing them out, without adequately informing them why we're about to do it, and giving them a chance to avoid it.

 

They honestly don't understand how what they're doing can be regarded as intrusive or disrespectful, and so, are blindsided by the sudden outrage they receive. Some people here just don't get that these christians aren't always deliberately trying to push people's buttons, whether they do so or not. Some evangelicals are very nice people, despite what they're doing.

 

That does not of course mean that being nice entitles you to not get cursed out. Sometimes that's the only way to get through to certain people.

[Ouroboros]

We have 2 open debate Forums. One is where we play nice. One is where we don't.

 

With me so far?

 

Hasn't anyone noticed the likes of Kratos, 1United, and Notscarevangelist do the majority of their posting, and start the majority of their threads...IN THE LION'S DEN.

Exactly. And it's up to everyone to follow the rules of Colosseum and remind each other that it's the place for serious discussion.

 

 

I think so many people here have gotten into a certain rhythm with christians that they keep engaging, and because so many are showing up at once these days, that we're skipping steps. We go straight from humoring them to cursing them out, without adequately informing them why we're about to do it, and giving them a chance to avoid it.

Very good point. We've heard so many of the arguments over and over again so we attack with the conclusion even before we have gone through the steps to get there and they get lost even before it starts.

[R. S. Martin]

I would like to point out something that has been glossed over by most involved.

 

We have 2 open debate Forums. One is where we play nice. One is where we don't.

 

With me so far?

 

Hasn't anyone noticed the likes of Kratos, 1United, and Notscarevangelist do the majority of their posting, and start the majority of their threads...IN THE LION'S DEN.

 

They are not INTERESTED in civil debate! If that is what they really wanted, they'd be much more active in the Coliseum. They aren't. They want us to get riled and pissed JUST AS MUCH as we want to be able, every now and then, to just chew on some fundie christian ASS.

 

This all got started with Kratos whining like a bitch here. http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=20916

 

And the whining came out of pm exchange. I took him under my wing to "show him the ropes," as it were. He seemed to think he was invited to speak on exC. To avoid him the embarrassment of public confusion and error I did what I could to clarify with pm. I suggested he read the rules and ask a mod if he needed further clarification. (I named Hans but removed that statement when I posted the pm; didn't want to play favourites at that point I guess). Instead of taking my suggestions he sent me a pm stating that he was posting to ask for clarification. By the time I got the pm he had already posted. Fine. His life. His choice. I'd done my best.

 

When he didn't believe the posts we did the polls (independently of each other). So someone's fed up? I know the feeling.

 

Japedo, your outburst in the OP here. I don't really understand it. Did you go off the deep end or something? I don't think you imagine some maniac blowing her top because the others worked might and mane all weekend to get rid of a cheat and liar while she herself was out having a good time with her hubby and kids makes all that great an image for exC.

 

I dunno...most of the time she makes sense. I guess she just went off the deep end there. We all get those days.

[Grandpa Harley]

Very good point. We've heard so many of the arguments over and over again so we attack with the conclusion even before we have gone through the steps to get there and they get lost even before it starts.

 

You have to admit, 95% of the time, that is the most efficient approach...

[Kelli]

Japedo, your outburst in the OP here. I don't really understand it. Did you go off the deep end or something? I don't think you imagine some maniac blowing her top because the others worked might and mane all weekend to get rid of a cheat and liar while she herself was out having a good time with her hubby and kids makes all that great an image for exC.

 

I dunno...most of the time she makes sense. I guess she just went off the deep end there. We all get those days.

 

Ruby... I just wanted to gently tell you that I think you are way out of line here. Quite frankly I consider that to be a personal attack on an XC member here and one who is in very good standing at that. Feel free to disagree with Japedo, you are more than free to do so, but do refrain from the attacks on her character. Posts like these will make things really ugly around here really quick.

 

Kelli

[Alice]

I would like to point out something that has been glossed over by most involved.

 

We have 2 open debate Forums. One is where we play nice. One is where we don't.

 

With me so far?

 

Hasn't anyone noticed the likes of Kratos, 1United, and Notscarevangelist do the majority of their posting, and start the majority of their threads...IN THE LION'S DEN.

 

They are not INTERESTED in civil debate! If that is what they really wanted, they'd be much more active in the Coliseum. They aren't. They want us to get riled and pissed JUST AS MUCH as we want to be able, every now and then, to just chew on some fundie christian ASS.

 

This all got started with Kratos whining like a bitch here. http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=20916

 

And the whining came out of pm exchange. I took him under my wing to "show him the ropes," as it were. He seemed to think he was invited to speak on exC. To avoid him the embarrassment of public confusion and error I did what I could to clarify with pm. I suggested he read the rules and ask a mod if he needed further clarification. (I named Hans but removed that statement when I posted the pm; didn't want to play favourites at that point I guess). Instead of taking my suggestions he sent me a pm stating that he was posting to ask for clarification. By the time I got the pm he had already posted. Fine. His life. His choice. I'd done my best.

 

When he didn't believe the posts we did the polls (independently of each other). So someone's fed up? I know the feeling.

 

Japedo, your outburst in the OP here. I don't really understand it. Did you go off the deep end or something? I don't think you imagine some maniac blowing her top because the others worked might and mane all weekend to get rid of a cheat and liar while she herself was out having a good time with her hubby and kids makes all that great an image for exC.

 

I dunno...most of the time she makes sense. I guess she just went off the deep end there. We all get those days.

 

The thread opened by Kratos doesn't read like whining to me. It reads like a request to members and moderators for some clarification about the Lion's Den. It does however read like someone who is experiencing the disappointment of mistaken expectations - maybe that could be percieved as 'whining'?

 

For myself - I think for an outsider coming in right now and trying to work out whether Christans are 'welcome' or not is about as clear as mud.

 

It still comes down what we mean by 'welcome' and why. The only thing that is clear is that there are maybe as many different responses to this enquiry as there are members of ex-c.

 

Some people it seems have been upset by the apparent arrogance of Kratos in seeing the Lions Den as a place set aside for Christians but is this not just another way of saying the Lions Den is the place where Christians can post what they want? My understanding is that the Lions'Den is the place set aside for Christians to post ... & where it is OK to post aggressive and impolite replies if you want to.

 

Some people want to - some people don't.

 

If Kratos is guilty of anything - it seems to me that he is guilty of making assumptions and feeling hurt when these were shattered - a very human failing and one of which I am often guilty and one I think some of us may have been guilty of in this and related exchanges. (I also understand that he has made negative comments about homosexuality and women and he obviously needs to be challenged on this thinking if this is the case, but I haven't seen the posts in question)

 

If we are guilty of anything ... then I think we have been a little prone of late to giving off a bit of a pack mentality appearance in the hounding of christians and whilst I am the epitome at times of english understatement Japedo shoots from the hip. I don't see the OP in the way you see it Ruby, and especially not as you seem to describe it above.

 

One of the biggest assumptions we can make is that our reading and interpretation of another's comments is correct - when we are all filtering every single bit of information we take in through our own subjective understanding ... and to accuse another of falsehood or suspect evil intent because we spot what to us looks like an 'inconsistency' but could very well be the result of us not having all the information we would need to paint the 'full' picture.

[Deva]

(I also understand that he has made negative comments about homosexuality and women and he obviously needs to be challenged on this thinking if this is the case, but I haven't seen the posts in question)

 

Alice:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...20623&st=20

 

Post #26

[Alice]

Thanks for the link Deva,

 

it's been hard to keep track with so many posts!

 

Post 26 - have to say that sounds like something I would have ascribed to in my fundy past - because that's what I had been taught to believe. Not that I was 'comfortable' with these beliefs and I struggled with them internally for a long time. Not that you would have known this if you'd challenged me on these topics whilst I was still part of a fundamentalist Church - I'd have spouted the 'party line' in a debate.

 

He gets some clear challenges both in that thread and in the separate thread that was set up to deal with his attitude towards to homosexuality.

 

I guess my hope would be that these challenges begin to sink in and help him to question his current stance. He shares elsewhere that he has been challenged to change his views on area's he once held as absolutely true.

 

I would expect someone who has already been through the significant changes he has (giving up a belief in a literal hell) to be full of internal inconsistencies.

[Vigile]

I think it is good we are looking for balance, but if I had to choose between the feelings of someone like Rhia and someone like Kratos; Kratos loses every time.

 

This is where I'm at on this issue as well. Flaming xians can be theraputic for some and isn't therapy the reason this site exists? If I had my druthers, I'd like to see some stop and think a bit before posting and respond to xian stupidity with rationality. I'd also like it if we could stop and think a bit and consider that xians are people and that they are not worthy of hate just because of their beliefs. Their beleifs are what are worthy of the hate. I cringe a bit at the idea of establishing some sort of board rule that seeks to somehow enforce these desires though. Everyone here is at different points in their deconversion process and everyone has their own needs.

 

In the end, I don't think xians that come here have a right to not be offended. They have plenty of places they can go to get their asses kissed. I still see plenty of reasonable people on this site. I'm not really sure there is mob mentality going on. There might be a clique of xian bashers, I'm not sure, but the site as a whole is stocked with rational people who don't hate xians as human beings. Perhaps my blinders are on and I'm a bit thick. Or perhaps I just haven't been interested enough to follow what's going on in the LD to see what the hubbub is all about.

[Alice]

I cringe a bit at the idea of establishing some sort of board rule that seeks to somehow enforce these desires though. Everyone here is at different points in their deconversion process and everyone has their own needs.

In the end, I don't think xians that come here have a right to not be offended. They have plenty of places they can go to get their asses kissed. I still see plenty of reasonable people on this site. I'm not really sure there is mob mentality going on. There might be a clique of xian bashers, I'm not sure, but the site as a whole is stocked with rational people who don't hate xians as human beings. Perhaps my blinders are on and I'm a bit thick. Or perhaps I just haven't been interested enough to follow what's going on in the LD to see what the hubbub is all about.

 

Vigile I think this is pretty key.

 

Not wanting to put words into Japedo's mouth - but my reading of her comments are that her's was a message of the moment ... I don't think she'd want to enforce any code of behaviour either and I took it as a call to look at our individual responses now.

 

How much we consider ourselves to be free thinkers - It is always useful to have any tendency to developing negative 'cultures' or unhelpful group 'attitudes' challenged. This does not mean that there is actually a mob mentality in force - but once we start to give off that 'appearance' the risk of one taking hold is heightened.

[sojourner]

I hope its ok for me to make a post here in this thread. I feel as if I want to say something very important to me and yet I also feel a little like Im walking into territory that its really none of my business if you will. If any mod finds this post out of line please remove it and forgive me.

 

I dont think you all really know how valuable what you all have here is to those of us that are questioning our beliefs and some of us dont really know we are actually questioning till we arrive here and go thru some communication.

 

Im speaking for that group ok, the group that have a moment of clarity and realize they are sincerely in a place of questioning what and why they believe what they do. Those of us have no place to wrestle these things out. The christian boards will annex you if you bring up certain things. Even the univeralsit boards cant handle what is freely discussed here on this site. You are very valuable in giving christians a place to wrestle with their beliefs. That may not matter to some of you but it has become very valuable to me and it has really helped me.

 

I hope you know that. I could go on and on about how much you all have added to my life.

 

If you give folks like Kratos and united1 some time its very possible they too will see they are here for a reason and begin to challange what is in them that seriously needs challanging. I know Kratos from another forum, I dont know his motives for being here for certain and Im not sure he does but I suspect he too will begin to question and challange the things he believes if he remains.

 

I know fundies are incredibly annoying, extremist and I can relate to your dislike for their presence. I have been thru the wringer with them as a universalist and I cant say Im nice to them all the time either. Actually they push my buttons so I stay off their sites. But not all of us are fundies. That I think is important to see cause some of us are truly seekers.

 

Again I apologize if my post is out of place.

 

sojourner

[Japedo]

.

 

Japedo, your outburst in the OP here. I don't really understand it. Did you go off the deep end or something? I don't think you imagine some maniac blowing her top because the others worked might and mane all weekend to get rid of a cheat and liar while she herself was out having a good time with her hubby and kids makes all that great an image for exC.

 

I dunno...most of the time she makes sense. I guess she just went off the deep end there. We all get those days.

 

 

WTF are you even saying in the bold part? That makes no sense to anything that I have talked about... Are you directing that at me and my family personally?

 

 

As far as the rest, You don't understand it because you KNOW full well YOU'RE the one I'm mainly talking to. Play coy and cute and innocent ruby, you're perfect at playing and creating drama then crying you're some innocent bystander games, I'm no longer playing. I said my peace, I'm done with it.

 

For all of those who want to make this into some fucking debate that I am taking the sides of zealot Christians, this is exactly my point, half of you don't fucking read what anyone say's. I'm off these boards and taking a break. I love you for the most part but I will not be painted as some Christian defender and will not be made to sound like I'm fucking defending zealots, and hindering the healing of any Ex-Cer, by the fucking FUNDY Ex-Cers here who can 't see anything past what they want me to say instead of seeing what I'm actually saying.

 

The conversation was making progress in the middle but has now divulged into jumping on to YET ANOTHER AGAIN NON-EXSISTANT bandwagon. Kevin, Hans who ever... lock the thread.. Please

 

Later!

 

 

YES.. In meltdown mode Ruby.. Pat yourself on the back for twisting words, and making yet another fucking argument into some Nonexistent conspericy.. You're the leader of the pitch fork crowd and everyone here knows it! ..

[Vigile]

Even the univeralsit boards cant handle what is freely discussed here on this site. You are very valuable in giving christians a place to wrestle with their beliefs. That may not matter to some of you but it has become very valuable to me and it has really helped me.

 

Just thought this was an interesting point worth highlighting.

[sojourner]

... removed by H... KRATOS IS NOT WELCOME AND BARELY TOLERATED.

 

Ruby,

 

I dont know Kratos real well, never met him but I have been on a forum with him for a while. I dont see him this way at all. Kratos is an ex preacher that is just coming into a universalist belief a few years ago. He is still pretty churchy if you will and what I would term a fundimentalist universalist. He is into authoritarian apostolic stuff that I have no taste for and we see a lot of stuff very differently. But I have never seen him be a sexually overt in any way. He has never come onto me at all in a sexual way. I dont know what you are sensing but I sincerely think Kratos is just a fairly normal human being struggling with his beliefs. I also dont think he lied, but rather the convo he was talking about with me somehow got misunderstood. I cant recall the details of that convo in question. I dont see myself as a martyr here.

 

I do think he has old fashioned beliefs about women and authority.

 

Just want you to know that

 

 

sojourner

[Ouroboros]

Very good point. We've heard so many of the arguments over and over again so we attack with the conclusion even before we have gone through the steps to get there and they get lost even before it starts.

 

You have to admit, 95% of the time, that is the most efficient approach...

 

 

It depends on wanted effect. It's very efficient to get rid of them, but the ones we have reached and have started to question their faith are the ones we stepped back and started to talk to and take through the steps. Granted that it doesn't work all the time either, but I think most of the people that actually de-converted after a debate here were not in any flame war topic but in some serious ones. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I have.

[sojourner]

Japedo

 

For what its worth I never saw you defending evangelizers but seekers to have more of a chance to seek and question.

 

I value your input here a whole lot not to mention the fact that Ive gotten to know you in chat and would miss you a whole lot.

 

I feel very torn , like my presence here has somehow caused this or elevated it or something

 

I am sorry to anyone that this has been the case

 

sojourner

[Ouroboros]

The conversation was making progress in the middle but has now divulged into jumping on to YET ANOTHER AGAIN NON-EXSISTANT bandwagon. Kevin, Hans who ever... lock the thread.. Please

 

Consider it done.