Faith - Why Is It Considered A "good" Thing To Have?

[SWIM]

Faith!

 

If you have just a tiny little bit, "mustard seed size" according to the buybull, you can move mountains... yeah? Anyone notice any mountains moving around bizzarely, as if someone magically moved it? nope, me either.

 

Some folks are proud they have faith. There is even a billboard near my house that says "Got Faith?" and shows water being poured into a wine glass. (turning to wine of course)...

 

Faith has actually discouraged and distressed lots of people. Those trying hard to have strong faith to save a loved one from cancer, or doing strange things to "strengthen" their faith, like dragging a giant cross down the road several miles... Or pounding nails in their hands...

 

But faith is really bullshit. And it's unhealthy. Faith is another way of saying "trust without reason to trust".

 

You can have all the faith in the world that you cannot be injured, but try walking in front of a speeding truck and see how well your faith protects you.

 

Let's put faith in it's proper perspective. It is NOT a good thing.

 

Thoughts?

[Deva]

We take a huge number of things "on faith" or with an implicit trust or we couldn't function. Relying on our past experience and the credibility of our sources, we believe the laws of physics aren't going to change overnight. It is really interesting to contemplate the number of things we believe without any personal experience or knowledge, but only because we deem the source to be credible.

 

Of course that isn't the type of faith the billboard was referring to. It is not referring to the faith we have that the city of London exists even though we haven't seen it. It is referring to religious faith. Faith and trust in a whole set of ideals and a person called Jesus based on questionable source material.

 

Three questions about any faith issue:

 

1. What is the object of your faith?

 

2. Is the source credible?

 

3. How does having faith impact your life in your relationship with yourself and with others?

 

To me, Christianity fails to answer these questions satisfactorily.

1. No one presently living actually knows who Jesus is.

2. The source is suspect and doesn't provide satisfactory information

3. The impact is negative as shown by my own experience.

 

That is how I see it.

[SWIM]

We take a huge number of things "on faith" or with an implicit trust or we couldn't function. Relying on our past experience and the credibility of our sources, we believe the laws of physics aren't going to change overnight.

 

 

Heyya Deva! Good morning! I was reffering to "blind faith" or "unfounded faith". I think what you are reffering to is more defined as "trust" or "trusted belief".

 

Blind faith is making a conscious EFFORT to strongly believe undeniably, something, anything, that is not founded in truth, logic or even common sense.

[Deva]

Heyya Deva! Good morning! I was reffering to "blind faith" or "unfounded faith". I think what you are reffering to is more defined as "trust" or "trusted belief".

 

Blind faith is making a conscious EFFORT to strongly believe undeniably, something, anything, that is not founded in truth, logic or even common sense.

 

OK SWIM. I knew that was what you were referring to - but just wanted to point out that there are different types of "faith". Yes, the xtian MUST make the world fit their view of the faith object. The trouble starts when they believe stuff in a 2,000 year old book with 2,000 year old science literally. That is blind, willful ignorance. A good example of this is the creationist museum.

[cm_christ]

please dont give them the honor of calling that building a museum. museaums teach facts and contain historically accurate exhbits.

[Vigile]

We take a huge number of things "on faith" or with an implicit trust or we couldn't function. Relying on our past experience and the credibility of our sources, we believe the laws of physics aren't going to change overnight.

 

This isn't faith, it's a reasoned observation of probabilities.

 

Faith, especially the way xians use the word, is total belief in something that there is no evidence for. This isn't anywhere in the same realm with my belief that the sun will rise tomorrow. I believe it will because I believe the probabilities that it will not are so ridiculously small that they need not even be considered on more than a philosophical basis.

 

It's important to make this distinction because xians build a strawman around it and try to claim they are on the same playing field with reality when in fact they are really out somewhere in La La land.

[florduh]

Sometimes I wish I had the ability to embrace blind faith, but I just don't. My mind requires at least some evidence for me to be able to believe something to be true.

 

I've seen the value of faith for people living and dying in wretched circumstances. No matter how much life beats them down, they see a greater purpose for everything, and it helps them to continue living, sometimes even with joy. It can ease the pain of the senseless loss of a child, or the suffering of a debilitating disease. It's self-delusion, but it works for them.

 

If a hurricane destroyed my house and all my belongings it would be nice if I could say that God has a plan and all things work for my betterment. It would be some comfort. As it is, I'd just be bitter and say, "well, I'm fucked again!"

 

- Chris

[DarthOkkata]

Well, we'll go to the nearest dictionary to figure out what faith is defined as, just to clear it up. From 'New college edition: The American heritage dictionary of the English language.'

 

1. A confident belief in the truth, value, or trusworthiness, of a person, idea, or thing.

 

2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

 

3. Loyalty to a person or thing: allegiance.

 

4. Belief or trust in god an in the doctrines expressed in the scriptures or other sacred works; religious conviction.

 

5. A system of religious beliefs.

 

6. Any set of principles or beliefs.

 

Hmm. It seems to me that definition # 2 seems to be the best overall. Some of the others sound nicer, but none make any mention of facts, evidence, or other concrete reasons for belief.

 

Seems definition #3 seems the most useful in the real world, and you're better off using other words.

 

Just from this perspective, it seems as if -any- faith is fairly useless. You're better off with facts, and probably even truth. Truth is not the same thing as fact. I've got no real use for truth myself, but it's still better than faith.

 

Faith is for morons, who don't like to think about things they view as unimportant very hard. Odd, considering they seem to think faith itself is so important. There's no redeeming value in it, other than it sounds nice. Even though it's the same thing as saying 'I don't know, but this is horrible baseless explination should be believed, just because I've not got a better one. Therefore it must be true. Even if you've got a better explanation, you should throw it away and believe mine. Sure, mine doesn't work, but you should believe me anyway, because somebody wrote my explanation down first.'

 

Faith has no value, christians like to confuse it with other terms. It's one of their favorite tools for mind control.

 

'Sure, faith and truth are the same thing. Don't worry. You need faith, can't do anything without it. It makes you powerful, not delusional. You'll be happy forever with it. Come on, just do a few more lines...you'll forget about it all and never worry about anything important again. We'll do all the thinking you need for you...'

 

Faith is just the leash the church uses to keep you on the porch. I've not seen another use for it anywhere. Christians try to tack on extra meanings to it and attach it to things it doesn't equate with like, observations, common sense, reasoning and deduction, pattern recognition, fact, and truth.

 

It's a word game to keep the ignorant masses confused and thinking they're more pleased and safer than they really are.

[chefranden]

Back last century when I was a teenager I always wanted to get into Faith. But I was shy and she was a cheerleader and the preachers daughter. Therefore there was no Faith for me.

[white_raven23]

People take pride in their faith the same way they take pride in never reading a book in their whole life (I've met more than one person like this).

 

If people can take pride in not learning anything new since high school, then how can it be any surprise that people put so much stock in faith?

 

It's a lot like being super proud that your oldest kid made bail, and being perplexed and unsure when your youngest kid passes his mid-term

[florduh]

Back last century when I was a teenager I always wanted to get into Faith. But I was shy and she was a cheerleader and the preachers daughter. Therefore there was no Faith for me.

Hah! I had a thing for Hope and Charity (sisters). But we digress.

 

"Faith is when you believe something nobody in his right mind would believe." (Possible paraphrase of Homer Simpson). By definition, faith (in the context of this discussion) is a deliberate decision to believe something that has no evidence for it. Many can maintain faith even in the face of contradicting evidence or.

 

I think blind faith is some sort of psychological mechanism or defense that can be used for coping with unpleasant reality. It obviously does have value as such to some people.

 

- Chris

[Skiergirl24]

My best friend sent me a book by a Christian Apologest right after my mother died. The title was "He Still Moves Mountains." I don't think I have ever wanted to physically harm anyone as much as I did when I opened her package. I threw the book across the room and later on I burned it.

[Eric_PK]

We take a huge number of things "on faith" or with an implicit trust or we couldn't function. Relying on our past experience and the credibility of our sources, we believe the laws of physics aren't going to change overnight.

 

This isn't faith, it's a reasoned observation of probabilities.

 

Faith, especially the way xians use the word, is total belief in something that there is no evidence for. This isn't anywhere in the same realm with my belief that the sun will rise tomorrow. I believe it will because I believe the probabilities that it will not are so ridiculously small that they need not even be considered on more than a philosophical basis.

 

It's important to make this distinction because xians build a strawman around it and try to claim they are on the same playing field with reality when in fact they are really out somewhere in La La land.

 

I'd go a bit farther.

 

I believe the sun will rise tommorrow because I simply have no reason to believe that it won't come up tommorrow, nor would the sun rising be an extraordinary event.

 

Not to mention the fact that it rising tommorrow is easily ascertained by the vast majority of people themselves.

[Abiyoyo]

Faith!

 

If you have just a tiny little bit, "mustard seed size" according to the buybull, you can move mountains... yeah? Anyone notice any mountains moving around bizzarely, as if someone magically moved it? nope, me either.

 

Yeah. Your right. God's just 'buybull' because we can't say to the mountains move here and there.

 

Some folks are proud they have faith. There is even a billboard near my house that says "Got Faith?" and shows water being poured into a wine glass. (turning to wine of course)...

 

I love that billboard

 

Faith has actually discouraged and distressed lots of people. Those trying hard to have strong faith to save a loved one from cancer, or doing strange things to "strengthen" their faith, like dragging a giant cross down the road several miles... Or pounding nails in their hands...

Sometimes I agree that what some people call faith is misconstrued, as I think everyone has been through at some point; but to say it has had more of a negative impact on this world than a positive I believe is a far fetched claim. Whether it is actually faith or not, if its claimed to be 'faith' directed than it accredits its conclusion accordingly.

 

But faith is really bullshit. And it's unhealthy. Faith is another way of saying "trust without reason to trust".

 

You can have all the faith in the world that you cannot be injured, but try walking in front of a speeding truck and see how well your faith protects you.

 

Let's put faith in it's proper perspective. It is NOT a good thing.

 

Wouldn't that pass 'faith'; and go into testing God.

 

Thoughts?

 

Keep the faith

[Neon Genesis]

Yeah. Your right. God's just 'buybull' because we can't say to the mountains move here and there.

Oh, I get it, all that stuff Jesus said about how if we had faith, we could move mountains was just "metaphorical", right? Isn't it funny how nearly every time a Christian says "that's not what the bible really means", it's almost always something that would be too inconvenient for them to accept?

 

 

Sometimes I agree that what some people call faith is misconstrued, as I think everyone has been through at some point; but to say it has had more of a negative impact on this world than a positive I believe is a far fetched claim.

"Those aren't real Christians!" *yawn* Can't you xtians ever come up with anything original?

 

Whether it is actually faith or not, if its claimed to be 'faith' directed than it accredits its conclusion accordingly.

I have no idea what this sentence means, but you really need to go read this thread, "What Does Christianity Offer Humanity In This Life That No, other religion or philosophy can?": http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=20121

 

 

Keep the faith

Keep on daydreaming.

[DarthOkkata]

Faith!

 

If you have just a tiny little bit, "mustard seed size" according to the buybull, you can move mountains... yeah? Anyone notice any mountains moving around bizzarely, as if someone magically moved it? nope, me either.

 

Yeah. Your right. God's just 'buybull' because we can't say to the mountains move here and there.

 

Some folks are proud they have faith. There is even a billboard near my house that says "Got Faith?" and shows water being poured into a wine glass. (turning to wine of course)...

 

I love that billboard

 

Faith has actually discouraged and distressed lots of people. Those trying hard to have strong faith to save a loved one from cancer, or doing strange things to "strengthen" their faith, like dragging a giant cross down the road several miles... Or pounding nails in their hands...

Sometimes I agree that what some people call faith is misconstrued, as I think everyone has been through at some point; but to say it has had more of a negative impact on this world than a positive I believe is a far fetched claim. Whether it is actually faith or not, if its claimed to be 'faith' directed than it accredits its conclusion accordingly.

 

But faith is really bullshit. And it's unhealthy. Faith is another way of saying "trust without reason to trust".

 

You can have all the faith in the world that you cannot be injured, but try walking in front of a speeding truck and see how well your faith protects you.

 

Let's put faith in it's proper perspective. It is NOT a good thing.

 

Wouldn't that pass 'faith'; and go into testing God.

 

Thoughts?

 

Keep the faith

 

We are testing god. That's kind of what the site is about on a lot of levels. He's failed all his test and is now enrolled in special classes with much smaller buses.

 

How about this one, I'll use a lighter, and you pray for fire. We'll see who can start burning stuff first.

 

Faith is a bad thing. It's another word for gullible. People who believe in things for no good reason are delusional. It a simple way to rationalize not thinking about things you don't understand.

 

I don't have faith the sun will rise tomorrow. I believe it will, because I have reason to believe it will. I can explain our path around it, and predict when it will rise based on experience.

 

Even a blind man can tell the sun is there. Seeing it isn't the only evidence it's there.

 

God does not fall into this category. There's no evidence what so ever that says any religion that believes in one is correct. They all believe for no good reason.

 

In fact, the actual evidence seems to contradict that he exists. I'd even go so far as to say faith is a dam built against knowledge. It prevents people from really learning things.

[Abiyoyo]

Yeah. Your right. God's just 'buybull' because we can't say to the mountains move here and there.

Oh, I get it, all that stuff Jesus said about how if we had faith, we could move mountains was just "metaphorical", right? Isn't it funny how nearly every time a Christian says "that's not what the bible really means", it's almost always something that would be too inconvenient for them to accept?

 

 

Sometimes I agree that what some people call faith is misconstrued, as I think everyone has been through at some point; but to say it has had more of a negative impact on this world than a positive I believe is a far fetched claim.

"Those aren't real Christians!" *yawn* Can't you xtians ever come up with anything original?

 

Whether it is actually faith or not, if its claimed to be 'faith' directed than it accredits its conclusion accordingly.

I have no idea what this sentence means, but you really need to go read this thread, "What Does Christianity Offer Humanity In This Life That No, other religion or philosophy can?": http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=20121

 

 

Keep the faith

Keep on daydreaming.

 

What should it have meant? Has anyone ever been claimed to move a mountain? If not, then should 'all' the teachings of Christianity be disregarded as rhetoric? If we could move mountains, wouldn't that be a little strange. Wouldn't 'we believers' have superman abilities? I don't think my statement is that out of line. I think it confuses you to why I would not believe 'faith' could move mountains, yet believe faith could be real for other things.

[florduh]

I think it confuses you to why I would not believe 'faith' could move mountains, yet believe faith could be real for other things.

 

Well, it confuses me. The Bible specifically says faith can move mountains. Why wouldn't you believe that? How do you decide which parts you will believe?

[Abiyoyo]

We are testing god. That's kind of what the site is about on a lot of levels. He's failed all his test and is now enrolled in special classes with much smaller buses.

How about this one, I'll use a lighter, and you pray for fire. We'll see who can start burning stuff first.

 

Why would I pray for faith for something to burn?

 

Faith is a bad thing. It's another word for gullible. People who believe in things for no good reason are delusional. It a simple way to rationalize not thinking about things you don't understand.

 

I do think and I do have faith. I have seen faith in my own ways be a catalyst for many things good. That would mean according to you , I am not delusional; as you said 'people who believe in things for no good reason are delusional'. Right? So what am I then? Remember, we already established that I'm not delusional.

 

I don't have faith the sun will rise tomorrow. I believe it will, because I have reason to believe it will. I can explain our path around it, and predict when it will rise based on experience.

Even a blind man can tell the sun is there. Seeing it isn't the only evidence it's there.

 

A blind man with no outside contact to the world, yet goes outside in his land wouldn't understand that its the sun warming him. So I would think since this man has no knowledge at all, no education, only 'senses', he could only hope that this warmth comes every day, and have faith it will. Good example of primitive faith at its finest; thats how it originated.

God does not fall into this category. There's no evidence what so ever that says any religion that believes in one is correct. They all believe for no good reason. In fact, the actual evidence seems to contradict that he exists. I'd even go so far as to say faith is a dam built against knowledge. It prevents people from really learning things.

 

Faith in something is not just limited to God. Its causes others to think they have a superior, more resourceful knowledge and keep defending their reasoning.

[Neon Genesis]

What should it have meant? Has anyone ever been claimed to move a mountain?

So, if that's not what Jesus really meant, then why didn't Jesus say what he really meant? Isn't God/Jesus supposed to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving? So, if God/Jesus didn't really mean that we could literally move mountains if we had faith, then why didn't he use his all-knowing magical powers to realize ahead of time that we wouldn't have been able to comprehend what the bible says and make his message clearer? Did God not realize ahead of time that we wouldn't be able to comprehend a word the bible said? If so, then God is not all-knowing because he didn't know that we couldn't understand what he meant in that verse. Did God not care that we comprehend what the bible says? If not, then God is not all-loving because God doesn't care that we can comprehend the bible. Or is it impossible for God to help us comprehend the bible? If so, then God is not all-powerful because he couldn't make the bible more comprehensible for us. Or maybe God just doesn't exist? Take your pick.

 

If not, then should 'all' the teachings of Christianity be disregarded as rhetoric?

Well, gee, why don't you think we're here instead of blindly following whatever everyone tells us about God, then?

 

If we could move mountains, wouldn't that be a little strange. Wouldn't 'we believers' have superman abilities? I don't think my statement is that out of line. I think it confuses you to why I would not believe 'faith' could move mountains, yet believe faith could be real for other things.

But I thought that according to the bible, God was not the author of confusion, so why is reading the bible confusing me?

[Abiyoyo]

I think it confuses you to why I would not believe 'faith' could move mountains, yet believe faith could be real for other things.

 

Well, it confuses me. The Bible specifically says faith can move mountains. Why wouldn't you believe that? How do you decide which parts you will believe?

 

I look at the context of the tale. 'As small as a mustard seed'. I assume that a tiny mustard seed has more faith than me. I can't move mountains last I checked. Silly, but thats how I think. Spiritually I perceive the tale as a comparison to 'the widespread lackluster of faith that Christ saw in people', and in context I say He was just trying to get them to understand the power of God in a way that is past our level of thought, or faith. I do not believe personally that Christ said that to say 'His people' could move some mountains around; I think he said was trying to put complexity into simplicity and it became upheld into demand and proof to God's existence in todays age.

 

But, thats just my opinion.

[Neon Genesis]

Why would I pray for faith for something to burn?

Why should you pray to God at all? Do you have some evidence that prayer works?

 

 

I do think and I do have faith. I have seen faith in my own ways be a catalyst for many things good.

What things can people with faith in God do that people without faith in God can't do just as easily?

 

That would mean according to you , I am not delusional; as you said 'people who believe in things for no good reason are delusional'. Right? So what am I then? Remember, we already established that I'm not delusional.

What good reason is there to believe in God? Is there something that humans can do with faith in God that they can't do without faith in God?

[Neon Genesis]

I look at the context of the tale. 'As small as a mustard seed'. I assume that a tiny mustard seed has more faith than me. I can't move mountains last I checked. Silly, but thats how I think. Spiritually I perceive the tale as a comparison to 'the widespread lackluster of faith that Christ saw in people', and in context I say He was just trying to get them to understand the power of God in a way that is past our level of thought, or faith. I do not believe personally that Christ said that to say 'His people' could move some mountains around; I think he said was trying to put complexity into simplicity and it became upheld into demand and proof to God's existence in todays age.

 

But, thats just my opinion.

How do you know that's what Jesus really meant? Were you there to know what he really meant when he said that verse? So, let me get this straight? You think it's impossible for God to use his miracles to magically give humans the power to move mountains, but you think it's possible for a mustard seed which is not sentient in anyway can have faith? Tell me, when was the last time you saw seeds have faith? Is there a seed heaven now or something? And I thought you said you couldn't know the will of God yet now you claim you do know? But even though you just bashed our opinion for being wrong, you then turn around and say this is just your opinion and not actual proof that's what Jesus really meant. If this is just your opinion, why can't we have an opinion that Jesus was delusional and thought humans could move mountains, if you admit this is just your opinion and you don't really know? And again, if God is all-knowing, why didn't he use his magical powers to make the verses clearer for us to understand what he said, so nobody would be confused? Doesn't the bible say that God is not the author of confusion?

[Abiyoyo]

What should it have meant? Has anyone ever been claimed to move a mountain?

So, if that's not what Jesus really meant, then why didn't Jesus say what he really meant? Isn't God/Jesus supposed to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving? So, if God/Jesus didn't really mean that we could literally move mountains if we had faith, then why didn't he use his all-knowing magical powers to realize ahead of time that we wouldn't have been able to comprehend what the bible says and make his message clearer? Did God not realize ahead of time that we wouldn't be able to comprehend a word the bible said? If so, then God is not all-knowing because he didn't know that we couldn't understand what he meant in that verse. Did God not care that we comprehend what the bible says? If not, then God is not all-loving because God doesn't care that we can comprehend the bible. Or is it impossible for God to help us comprehend the bible? If so, then God is not all-powerful because he couldn't make the bible more comprehensible for us. Or maybe God just doesn't exist? Take your pick.

 

None of the above. If He is what you claimed, and the character you present Him as should be, then there wouldn't have been Jesus at all, He would be walking around with people, talking, speaking, visible, good would rein, bad would not exist, fall of man wouldn't have ever been thought of, physical desires of any kind would be removed or never been created, why would we eat, digest, or discrete bodily fluids. We wouldn't be, because we are finite and fail. Why would this God create something to fail? Right? So that point is moot. I explained in another post what I thought of it. I sounds hard to digest, but God either has a character by the Bibles writings or the God of Israel is misrepresented by the authors; making the Bible a book of later hope of more than we see in Christ and a cultural story from the Hebrews.

 

Isaiah says, Who made you sacrifice these things? That in itself makes me wonder about the 'direction of God sayings in certain parts of the Ot. Also, dialog between certain sayings from God written in the book almost seem to be from a different person. The Levitical law. Why basically did Christ say, don't worry about what you eat, drink, when its very well covered in the Ot. Its almost like the OT was represented wrong somewhere; and Christ was suppose to fix it.

 

If we could move mountains, wouldn't that be a little strange. Wouldn't 'we believers' have superman abilities? I don't think my statement is that out of line. I think it confuses you to why I would not believe 'faith' could move mountains, yet believe faith could be real for other things.

But I thought that according to the bible, God was not the author of confusion, so why is reading the bible confusing me?

 

Thats Paul's opinion. Why would He be a stumbling block to many, a snare to those on earth? Personal opinion. I see Paul saying that to try to connect his own confusion in his drastic change in life, trying to make sense of it all and keep him moving for what he was being basically belittled for believing.

[Abiyoyo]

Why would I pray for faith for something to burn?

Why should you pray to God at all? Do you have some evidence that prayer works?

 

Neon genesis. Thats exactly my point from your other thread, that you debunked my statement and said didn't make sense. Religion and science do not connect, because that would be testing God. In science, evidence/ proof of something is determined by steps of a process that determines a constant result; and in agreement with other scientists becomes a scientific proof. God, an entity, would not qualify to be scientific just like ghosts wouldn't.

 

 

I do think and I do have faith. I have seen faith in my own ways be a catalyst for many things good.

What things can people with faith in God do that people without faith in God can't do just as easily?

 

Thats unknown. But, I will say that just because someone says they had faith in God, and another says they were hoping that someone got better; and that person got better. This doesn't mean the later wasn't from God, doesn't mean the first was from God. Just means someone got better and the one that gave God the glory, accredited His God to healing this person. Increasing His faith. Yet, the other person, didn't increase faith in God because they didn't accredit God. They just increased whatever motived them for that person to get better. Whether it was the closeness of that person, the love of physical life, the mind of that person, etc. Whatever it is, it all falls into some form of faith. Some just put all the eggs into a 'creator' that hears His people.

 

The 'why' to why God doesn't hear and act on all peoples, is unknown. But, it comes down to if every man/woman lived with prayer of faith to heal, etc; then we would not die. Right? Everyone would still be here on earth. That just wouldn't be possible. Also, I'm not implying God is trying to control population; as that would be cruel and injustice. But, He made us to die.

 

That would mean according to you , I am not delusional; as you said 'people who believe in things for no good reason are delusional'. Right? So what am I then? Remember, we already established that I'm not delusional.

What good reason is there to believe in God? Is there something that humans can do with faith in God that they can't do without faith in God?

 

I hope so