Serious Question To Christians

[DarthOkkata]

Why create such a flawed and unstable planet for us in the first place then?

 

Would it have been more difficult to create a world without a liquid melted core, or one with a more stable orbital path, or one with less severe wind and weather patterns?

 

It seems about the same as hanging an ant farm over the burner on a stove turned on high by two small strings, and pushing it into a swing, occasionally stopping to grab it and shake it as hard as he can, supplying only enough food for half the population of ants, occasionally locking the farm in the freezer for a week or so, and every once and a while running the tap into it, and just to mix it up a bit, depriving them of moisture for a month or so every year or two.

 

A god who is supposedly as concerned for our well being as the one Christians claim to have wouldn't do something so haphazard and cruel. That sounds more like a mean spirited ten year old to me.

 

If Revelations is to be believed, he plans to eventually toss most of the ants into the microwave, while taking a few lucky ones out and putting them into the sugar dish.

 

I'm not seeing a great plan here for the betterment of the ant population.

[Grandpa Harley]

Fallen. There's that word again. Fallen... fallen from what?

[Neon Genesis]

I do not believe that God micromanages every life or every situation directly.

This makes no sense. Are you saying that God is not omnipotent and either cannot or willfully chooses to not be in control of his own creation when he feels like it? Yet John 1:3 says

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

It doesn't say God only makes the good things in the universe and the bad things that happen are not from God. It says that ALL THINGS ARE MADE FROM GOD. Also, Isaiah 45:7 says

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Here the BIBLE ITSELF clearly says GOD CREATES EVIL. It doesn't say God creates only good things and just "lowers" us into bad things. It says he CREATES EVIL. Some English versions will translate the word evil as "calamity." The definition of the word calamity means, "a great misfortune or disaster." You're either kidding yourself or have never actually read the bible if you think God doesn't cause these things.

 

We live in a fallen world for a season so we can become overcomers in it. We are given promises in the Word by which we can escape the bad things that are in the world. God does not send disease to us. Disease is in this fallen world. Yet, He provides healing through faith. He does not send natural disasters, but natural disasters are in the world. Yet, He promises protection through them if we believe.

What about in the book of Exodus when God sent the seven plagues on the Egyptians? Aren't those natural disasters which God specifically caused? Didn't God specifically command Moses to cast those plagues onto the Egyptians? What about in Leviticus 26:14-41 where God says

‘But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments,

 

15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant,

 

16 I also will do this to you:

I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.

And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

 

17 I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies.

Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you.

 

18 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

 

19 I will break the pride of your power;

I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze.

 

20 And your strength shall be spent in vain;

for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit.

 

21 ‘Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins.

 

22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number;

and your highways shall be desolate.

 

23 ‘And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me,

 

24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins.

 

25 And I will bring a sword against you that will execute the vengeance of the covenant;

when you are gathered together within your cities I will send pestilence among you;

and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.

 

26 When I have cut off your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall bring back your bread by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied.

 

27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,

 

28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;

and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

 

29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.

 

30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;

and My soul shall abhor you.

 

31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.

 

32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.

 

33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;

your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

 

34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land;

then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.

 

35 As long as it lies desolate it shall rest—

for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.

 

36 ‘And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies;

the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee;

they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues.

 

37 They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues;

and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies.

 

38 You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.

 

39 And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands;

also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.

 

40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,

 

41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;

if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—

Tell me Kratos, have you ever actually read the OT before in your life?

 

The whole idea that God is sitting up in Heaven saying "I think I will give little Bobby cancer today or I think I will let little Suzie drown in a flood" is not God as I see Him. We have been lowered from the Heavenly life to this ugly world so we can bring Heaven down here through faith. I see mankind much more corporate and not so individual as some when it comes to God. It is an "us" thing and not a "me" thing as I see it.

 

John

This makes no sense. First, you say that God does not sit up in heaven and decide who he will allow to suffer yet he decides who will be saved through faith? Or are you implying that children who suffer from diseases are given diseases because they don't have enough faith and so it's the child's own fault if they suffer?

[Alice]

Fallen. There's that word again. Fallen... fallen from what?

 

don't ask questions like that in the coliseum - it's just tooo tempting

[Grandpa Harley]

Tempting for what?

[DarthOkkata]

Fallen. There's that word again. Fallen... fallen from what?

 

I'd assume gravity was involved somehow.

 

I suppose if even light can't escape it, what chance does a crazy spiritual idea have?

[R. S. Martin]

I hope this meets the needs of the moment. I set up a thread in the Theology section to discuss Biblical Views of Women and Gays. I copied a few quotes from this thread to carry the convo over there. Recently a Christian's thread (Mercury Symbol) was moved there. So I know Christians have posted there and I figured it should be fair to Kratos.

 

I'm also thinking putting it in the context of biblical view or theology, rather than fighting it out in person-to-person combat might help depersonalize it. Just my idea. Don't know if I'm right.

This is helpful information, but if we want to have it be a debate it should be here in the Coliseum, which I would be happy to move it here for you. Otherwise as a separate discussion amongst the ExChristians it's fine where it is.

 

All I wanted was to present the opportunity for discussion among Christians and exChristians. Since Mercury was allowed to discuss Paul in the Theology section I assumed Kratos is allowed to discuss this topic there.

 

Back on topic.

[Ouroboros]

So Kratos,

 

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but your opinion is that the pain and suffering and babies are born with genetic defects are the cause of the "fallen" world, and God basically just let it run its course without interfering? Even though he could, he doesn't do it, because he has decided not to? God is using his "free will" to not act even if humans are suffering, and have a very high potential to go to Hell for the majority. That means God consider suffering, pain and Hell as good consequences. And from other discussions, my understanding is that the higher good in all this is that humans are given a free will and are slaves under the powers of nature because of it. Correct?

 

Still, God could act on the worst cases still, and give the small babies that die within a few years from severe trauma and never gets a chance to live or even use their free will. Hence, God is not considering "free will" of such a high value that these babies could be beneficiaries of such "good". If "free will" is the higher good, then why does a number of humans never get a chance to experience it, but live in suffering? Do you follow my argument here? Let me rephrase it. If suffering and natural "evil" is to be accepted because the "free will" is the higher good, then shouldn't God make sure this "free will" is experienced by every member of humanity he brings to life?

Why would some suffer a short life, without ever having a life where they can use "free will"?

[Kratos]

Alice,

 

As I understand it, it is not as you describe that "those who have faith God heals". Remember that the premise as I understand it is that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of God. If you believed in God (and I do not know that you do not), would you suppose that His faith made someone else to do things for Him? My point is that faith gives us the ability to do the acts of God and not to move Him to do our bidding.

 

Jesus healed the sick, He did not ask His Father to heal them. When found in the midst of a wind storm, Jesus spoke to the storm and calmed it. This is overcoming and He said that we would overcome as He overcame. It was the power of God in Him that did the work, but His faith in that power in Him that made it possible.

 

If your perspective is the typical Christian one that faith is getting God to perform, I can see that God would appear partial if He answered some prayers and not others. But all who receive Jesus have the power to do the works of God as Jesus did. This is the point of being lowered into this vanity of a world. I mean what would we overcome if the world were the way that many of us wish that God had made the world? How would we learn to operate in His power if there was nothing to overcome with it?

 

John

[Kratos]

So Kratos,

 

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but your opinion is that the pain and suffering and babies are born with genetic defects are the cause of the "fallen" world, and God basically just let it run its course without interfering? Even though he could, he doesn't do it, because he has decided not to? God is using his "free will" to not act even if humans are suffering, and have a very high potential to go to Hell for the majority. That means God consider suffering, pain and Hell as good consequences. And from other discussions, my understanding is that the higher good in all this is that humans are given a free will and are slaves under the powers of nature because of it. Correct?

 

Still, God could act on the worst cases still, and give the small babies that die within a few years from severe trauma and never gets a chance to live or even use their free will. Hence, God is not considering "free will" of such a high value that these babies could be beneficiaries of such "good". If "free will" is the higher good, then why does a number of humans never get a chance to experience it, but live in suffering? Do you follow my argument here? Let me rephrase it. If suffering and natural "evil" is to be accepted because the "free will" is the higher good, then shouldn't God make sure this "free will" is experienced by every member of humanity he brings to life?

Why would some suffer a short life, without ever having a life where they can use "free will"?

 

Han,

 

If the traditional orthodox interpretation of the Bible were true that we have one shot at life and could go to Hell for eternity if we did not "pass the test", I would have the same problems that you do.

 

But, as you know, I do not believe that this is what the Bible teaches in the original languages and has been mistranslated into English. I, also, know that this frustrates you about me because you feel that I just make it up as I go along. I assure you that I do not.

 

Let me just say that this age and our one life in it is not all that there is. These little ones that you mention will live again and will have their chance to overcome as we do now. The Bible says that those who have lived before cannot be perfected without us. I do not know how it all will work out, but I know corporately we are moving toward being conformed to His image and we take these little ones with us as we move forward to perfection. There is no human garbage heap. I mean do the math. The Bible says that the Good Shepherd leaves the 99 to go after the 1 that is lost. This says to me that 99 + 1 = 100% of humanity will be saved and be conformed to His image. Not one child will be left behind.

 

John

 

John

[DarthOkkata]

The Bible says that the Good Shepherd leaves the 99 to go after the 1 that is lost. This says to me that 99 + 1 = 100% of humanity will be saved and be conformed to His image. Not one child will be left behind.

 

So, if we're all going to be saved eventually anyway, why bother talking about it at all? We'll get there eventually anyway under this logic. So what does it matter if I realize it, agree, disagree, or continue to view it as complete bullshit? Isn't discussion on an inevitability rather pointless? There's nothing to be done about it anyway. If the world ends when we become perfect, or transforms into heaven, or whatever, why hurry? What's the rush?

[Grandpa Harley]

But, as you know, I do not believe that this is what the Bible teaches in the original languages and has been mistranslated into English. I, also, know that this frustrates you about me because you feel that I just make it up as I go along. I assure you that I do not.

 

However, you did state that Aramaic wasn't the right language either... and that is the only tongue a Jewish first century carpenter would be comfortable in... This is an inconsistency, since much of what you're stating could only be stated in Romance languages (Greek, Latin, French Spanish, English, et seq) Not pre-Classical Hebrew nor Aramaic... Thus, we are heading back to making it up as you're going along...

[Alice]

Let me just say that this age and our one life in it is not all that there is. These little ones that you mention will live again and will have their chance to overcome as we do now. The Bible says that those who have lived before cannot be perfected without us. I do not know how it all will work out, but I know corporately we are moving toward being conformed to His image and we take these little ones with us as we move forward to perfection. There is no human garbage heap. I mean do the math. The Bible says that the Good Shepherd leaves the 99 to go after the 1 that is lost. This says to me that 99 + 1 = 100% of humanity will be saved and be conformed to His image. Not one child will be left behind.

 

John

 

This sounds a lot like John Hick. I went through a phase of this and I think I can understand the appeal.

 

A problem I would continue to have with this way of thinking is the idea that you seem to have that people somehow 'improve' or become 'conformed to God's image through suffering'. I simply do not see this in practice. Suffering more often begats suffering. People 'overcome' the slings and arrows of life because of resilence factors and goodness, the suffering contributes nothing except suffering - the amount of goodness in a person's life is the thing that enables them to 'overcome' the suffering. Your resistence training is so very very flawed.

 

People do not learn to love because they encounter hate - they learn love from love.

 

People do not learn to live peacefully from enocuntering war and persecutions, they learn from the experience of peace.

 

People do not learn to compromise because they have been oppressed. Compromise arises out of experience of being valued and considered.

 

If your god thinks that exposure to violence and evil and pain and suffering is a good method for moving mankind towards somekind of perfected ideal then he's never visited a residential children's home. Exposure to all that is bad in this 'vain world' does not produce good results - it tends to harm.

 

If your arguments were based in any kind of truth then children who have been abused the most would be the 'strongest' adults. Yes of course, some are able to overcome - they overcome 'despite' the suffering, they overcome because they encounter love and goodness somewhere and this lifts them.

[Grandpa Harley]

Alice,

 

A valid point. Case study - Great Grandpa Harley, my late father, had a poverty stricken and neglectful childhood, first in remote southern Ireland, then in one of the hell hole areas of the steel town where I was to be born... If he hadn't encountered my mother's family, who took him as one of their own at 14, he maintained until his lucidity gave way to howling madness that he'd never really have realised that his family was an aberration, and could only be viewed as a terrible warning of dysfunction.

[Neon Genesis]

Alice,

 

As I understand it, it is not as you describe that "those who have faith God heals".

Expect as I quoted in my previous post, God clearly states throughout the bible that he sends disasters to those who do not believe in him. Again, you are showing that you haven ever never read the bible and are cherry picking all the nice parts and ignoring anything in the bible that makes God look bad. Furthermore, Jesus said that if you ask, ye shall receive. Jesus didn't say you'll receive when he feels like letting you receive. He says ASK AND YE SHALL RECEIVE.

 

Remember that the premise as I understand it is that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of God. If you believed in God (and I do not know that you do not), would you suppose that His faith made someone else to do things for Him? My point is that faith gives us the ability to do the acts of God and not to move Him to do our bidding.

So, what exactly is the purpose of prayer, then? Or are you admitting that the bible lied and prayer is useless?

 

Jesus healed the sick, He did not ask His Father to heal them.

Well, obviously BECAUSE JESUS WAS GOD. Jesus can do whatever he wants without asking God for help because he is God in the flesh.

 

When found in the midst of a wind storm, Jesus spoke to the storm and calmed it. This is overcoming and He said that we would overcome as He overcame. It was the power of God in Him that did the work, but His faith in that power in Him that made it possible.

So, you're admitting Jesus/God cherry picks who he heals and who he doesn't heal, then? Kind of like how you cherry pick the bible when you feel like it?

 

If your perspective is the typical Christian one that faith is getting God to perform, I can see that God would appear partial if He answered some prayers and not others. But all who receive Jesus have the power to do the works of God as Jesus did.

Whether we ask God to perform for us, IF GOD HEALS SOME PEOPLE BUT NOT OTHERS, THAT IS STILL BEING PARTIAL. You clearly have never read the definition of partiality, either. And do not go off on some rambling about how God will appear before everyone in the future and that proves God is not partial because that would still be partiality whether it happens at a different time or not.

 

This is the point of being lowered into this vanity of a world.

What is the point of prayer?

 

I mean what would we overcome if the world were the way that many of us wish that God had made the world? How would we learn to operate in His power if there was nothing to overcome with it?

 

John

If God doesn't suffer because God is invincible, then how can God learn to operate in his power if he had nothing to overcome because he has omnipotent powers? Are you saying that because God has no suffering to overcome, that God is weak? And no, Jesus' suffering on the cross doesn't count as God suffering because it was all rigged for Jesus to win from the start, so that would hardly count as suffering. And if you counted Jesus' crucifixion as suffering, and humans become stronger through suffering, does that mean humans are stronger than Jesus and God because humans have gone through more suffering than God and Jesus?

 

But, as you know, I do not believe that this is what the Bible teaches in the original languages and has been mistranslated into English. I, also, know that this frustrates you about me because you feel that I just make it up as I go along. I assure you that I do not.

If you believe that the bible is mistranslated into English, then why do you continue to quote from English translations of the bible as your authority? Or is the English version of the bible only mistranslated when it's inconvenient for you and accurate when it is convenient?

[Antlerman]

Let me just say that this age and our one life in it is not all that there is. These little ones that you mention will live again and will have their chance to overcome as we do now. The Bible says that those who have lived before cannot be perfected without us. I do not know how it all will work out, but I know corporately we are moving toward being conformed to His image and we take these little ones with us as we move forward to perfection.

Just an observation I've picked up on that seems to run through your theology, it's the idea of reincarnation. Not that you say they are born back into this world here as some other person or animal or whatnot, but that of the ultimate pursuit of Nirvana, or in how you would put that term in Christian language, "Conformed to the image of God." Isn't the notion of overcoming in this life and future lives to achieve the divine state at the heart of their beliefs?

 

In which case if true, that this is what the Bible passages should be interpreted to teach, than doesn't this lend itself to the idea of it borrowing from the teachings of Eastern Religions?

 

 

Secondly, I asked Cambion this question who has not returned to answer but would like to ask you your thoughts since it ties into what you're saying:

 

Secondly, if God took care of everything for us, what reason would we have to exist? If we're supposed to leave all our problems up to God, and do nothing ourselves about them (which is why God put us in the position of creation that He did), then we have no purpose, or reason for existing; either as a species, or as individuals. That means we can just screw around and do whatever, since God's our personal diaper-changer.

Hence why if God is what you say he is, then no one will go to heaven because it's everything you said we shouldn't have.

 

What reason do we have to exist in heaven? To be worship drones?

 

I'm just curious if you thought about it, that maybe the 'journey' is the so called purpose, and that if we have attained this state of 'god-ness', becoming the Bride so to speak, then what? Is that life, or death? Or have we transformed into gods ourselves as the Mormons teach and start creating our own universes to preside over? I guess if I would say that if we achieve a state of oneness with the divine, then we have become divine ourselves, or have ceased to live and become Life itself.

 

I know that might become a bit of a different discussion topic in itself, but if we're talking the purpose of suffering, it might be nice to hear a brief overview of the completeness of thought that encompasses the grand picture and not some vague or loose-ended vision on which to try to build backwards from.

[Ouroboros]

If the traditional orthodox interpretation of the Bible were true that we have one shot at life and could go to Hell for eternity if we did not "pass the test", I would have the same problems that you do.

 

But, as you know, I do not believe that this is what the Bible teaches in the original languages and has been mistranslated into English. I, also, know that this frustrates you about me because you feel that I just make it up as I go along. I assure you that I do not.

Yeah. You are an odd Christian.

 

Who knows, maybe you're closer to the original Christians than the mainstream? But that's part of the problem though, since how can a person as an outsider know or distinguish between your personal theology and the mainstream, and how can he be able to decide which one would be more viable, when both of them are constructed with explanations that reminds of how sci-fi and fantasy novelists come up with magical or non-contemporary solutions to their problems? Like what has been brought up here before, it's no different than to listen to two Lord of the Rings fans dissecting the exact and intricate details of the elf-orc heritage.

 

Let me just say that this age and our one life in it is not all that there is. These little ones that you mention will live again and will have their chance to overcome as we do now. The Bible says that those who have lived before cannot be perfected without us. I do not know how it all will work out, but I know corporately we are moving toward being conformed to His image and we take these little ones with us as we move forward to perfection. There is no human garbage heap. I mean do the math. The Bible says that the Good Shepherd leaves the 99 to go after the 1 that is lost. This says to me that 99 + 1 = 100% of humanity will be saved and be conformed to His image. Not one child will be left behind.

Re-incarnation requires just as much of belief and a leap of faith as any of the majority Christian ideas. But at least you have thought about it and have a solution to the problem in your theology. I'll accept that.

 

Btw, I have at times (in the more religious moments) thought about the possibility that we all are spirits of gods. The gods, eternal and without form, needed to experience temporality and mortality, and decided to create the universe and possess the bodies of the creatures just for that purpose. And that's our consciousness and how we can feel an identity as being one-self. We are the embodiments of the spirits of the gods. We don't have to pray to or praise anyone, because we were ultimately the creators. Who can say that this isn't more or less true than any other religion?

[Kratos]

Let me just say that this age and our one life in it is not all that there is. These little ones that you mention will live again and will have their chance to overcome as we do now. The Bible says that those who have lived before cannot be perfected without us. I do not know how it all will work out, but I know corporately we are moving toward being conformed to His image and we take these little ones with us as we move forward to perfection. There is no human garbage heap. I mean do the math. The Bible says that the Good Shepherd leaves the 99 to go after the 1 that is lost. This says to me that 99 + 1 = 100% of humanity will be saved and be conformed to His image. Not one child will be left behind.

 

John

 

This sounds a lot like John Hick. I went through a phase of this and I think I can understand the appeal.

 

A problem I would continue to have with this way of thinking is the idea that you seem to have that people somehow 'improve' or become 'conformed to God's image through suffering'. I simply do not see this in practice. Suffering more often begats suffering. People 'overcome' the slings and arrows of life because of resilence factors and goodness, the suffering contributes nothing except suffering - the amount of goodness in a person's life is the thing that enables them to 'overcome' the suffering. Your resistence training is so very very flawed.

 

People do not learn to love because they encounter hate - they learn love from love.

 

People do not learn to live peacefully from enocuntering war and persecutions, they learn from the experience of peace.

 

People do not learn to compromise because they have been oppressed. Compromise arises out of experience of being valued and considered.

 

If your god thinks that exposure to violence and evil and pain and suffering is a good method for moving mankind towards somekind of perfected ideal then he's never visited a residential children's home. Exposure to all that is bad in this 'vain world' does not produce good results - it tends to harm.

 

If your arguments were based in any kind of truth then children who have been abused the most would be the 'strongest' adults. Yes of course, some are able to overcome - they overcome 'despite' the suffering, they overcome because they encounter love and goodness somewhere and this lifts them.

 

Alice,

 

I believe that if you think too individualistically instead of corporately you will miss how God's plan works. As I mentioned on another post, the Bible talks about those who have died without having received the promise not being able to be perfected without us. Each generation stands on the shoulders of those who have gone before and move a little closer to the mark for all of us. We take them with us on to perfection in the same way that all of the parts of one body share in all of the benefits that the rest of the body receives.

 

As far as what we learn through suffering, Jesus was our example and Hebrews 5 says that He learned obedience by the things that He suffered. The root of this understanding is to see what God is doing in terms of a Kingdom where all authority and power resides in the King and His Throne and we operate for Him with His power to the extent that we are submitted to Him. Adam came and lost his place with God by wanting to choose for himself what would be good or evil for him and took humanity with him. Jesus came showing that the way back to operating in the power of God is to do only what He shows us to do. The lesson of the OT is that death and disease and war are the result of man going his own way.

 

There was a Centurian who came to Jesus and asked that his servant be healed. When Jesus offered to come to heal him, this man said that it was not necessary since he could see that Jesus was under authority so he should have the authority to just speak to the sickness and it would leave. Jesus described this man's take as great faith. We learn through our own suffering and watching those around us and in the Bible that there is no good life when man goes his own way. On the other hand, we can have His Kingdom done as His will is done on earth as it is in Heaven.

 

I hope this helps. I sure do not have all of the answers, but this is where I am today.

 

John

[Antlerman]

I believe that if you think too individualistically instead of corporately you will miss how God's plan works.

This just reminded me of a quote from the film director Charlie Chaplin:

"

Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot.

"

 

Actually you just touched on something quite important. How people in the past didn't view themselves as individualistically as we do today. That's part of the problem with the "personal god" idea. It took you as part of the bigger plan, as one of the nation under that god's name, and made him "Father". In which case it became individualistic. He was now Daddy, and not just a corporate deity anymore.

[R. S. Martin]

Btw, I have at times (in the more religious moments) thought about the possibility that we all are spirits of gods. The gods, eternal and without form, needed to experience temporality and mortality, and decided to create the universe and possess the bodies of the creatures just for that purpose. And that's our consciousness and how we can feel an identity as being one-self. We are the embodiments of the spirits of the gods. We don't have to pray to or praise anyone, because we were ultimately the creators. How can say that this isn't more or less true than any other religion?

 

What a clever amalgamation of atheism with theism!

 

I wait with bated breath to see his answer to this one.

[The-Captain]

As far as what we learn through suffering, Jesus was our example and Hebrews 5 says that He learned obedience by the things that He suffered.

 

The root of this understanding is to see what God is doing in terms of a Kingdom where all authority and power resides in the King and His Throne and we operate for Him with His power to the extent that we are submitted to Him.

 

How exactly does complete obedience to God's will provide an end or deterrent to suffering? We've been over this a million times, as a blueprint for an ideal world the Bible's "morality" fails. Quite the opposite, it creates and prolongs suffering. Is that going to change in these coming "ages" you see coming, or are you saying its more about learning to say "good is bad", "submission is elevation" and other bits of doublespeak?

 

The lesson of the OT is that death and disease and war are the result of man going his own way.

 

Eisegesis.... ah hell its all eisgesis.

 

Aside from personal interpretation of the bible what basis do you have for holding this belief?

 

As in what in reality makes you think this. I'm not trying to derail or go of topic, I think it is relevant to the discussion. You use this belief (no hell etc.) to rationalize, maybe even idealize, human suffering. In my mind that sort of attitude and belief promote and draw out the negative things we've discussed.

[Kratos]

AM,

 

I certainly have not worked it all out, but have thought about it. As far as I see it now involves aome speculation of what the Bible means by "eternity". If someone is eternal, they are not subject to time. They have always existed and do not change. If God is Spirit and His Heavenly realm is in the Spirit and not in time or physical as we know it, it could be that God always being a Creator is always expanding His Kindom to different realms that He creates. So, suppose He created time and a physical universe and wanted to set man in this new universe so that we could rule it in His Name. The problem with time and a physical universe is it constantly changes and free will gets involved in this kind of universe. So perhaps, man has to be "grown up" character and constitution wise in order to faithfully represent His Kingdom in this realm without substituting with the way that we think things ought to be done instead.

 

So to sum up my speculation, we grow up to think and rule like He would do so we can be trusted to expand His universe and Kingdom in the ages to come. Earth is the training ground or nursery by which His Sons become trained and qualified to rule the rest of the Universe in His name.

 

I know that this is a ton of speculating and I am sure I am totally wrong about most of it. The Bible just does not go beyond our being conformed to His image in this age although it hints at ages to come when what has been done here will be brought into play.

 

So, yes, I have thought about the "end game", but really have no answers.

 

John

[Grandpa Harley]

It's taken me a while... I've placed the Theology

 

http://reluctant-messenger.com/

[R. S. Martin]

Alice,

 

I believe that if you think too individualistically instead of corporately you will miss how God's plan works.

 

Not Alice here but...

 

Whoa! Read the Sermon on the Mount, esp. the following passage:

 

Matt. 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 

³⁰

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

³¹

Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

A God who "sees the little sparrow fall and marks its tender view" and who knows how many hairs are on my head seems to think individualistically. A man who preaches otherwise must be seen as a false prophet preaching a new and strange doctrine. Perhaps, Kratos, you better check out the details of what is reserved for such deceivers and devourers of the innocent. Re devourers, the devil goes about in sheep's clothing as a lion or ravening wolves seeking whom he may devour (1 Pet. 5:8, Matt. 7:15).

[Antlerman]

It's taken me a while... I've placed the Theology

 

http://reluctant-messenger.com/

Really interesting.... From there:

 

The Master walked and collected his thoughts. "Lucifer finally perceived the full meaning of what a souls ultimate pontential to be. God's plan is to create millions and billions of God Beings through soul evolution!"

 

Chester shook his head as if confused. "Why did this upset Lucifer so much?"

 

The Master paused as if making sure he had Chester's attention, "Lucifer felt betrayed by God. Lucifer thought he would always be the Third Highest in the Infinite Realities. Instead he discovers God is creating God by the Billions and it was Lucifer's Pride to be of the Highest. Lucifer felt he had to maintain his most high status at all cost.

What's so interesting about this is how he takes the knowledge of what we know in science, and what we know of other religions today and tries to blend and weave the story together as some fabric to lay over all of it. It's the nature of myth to do this. Of course if anyone studies the origin of the stories historically, linguistically, etc it's obvious they weren't saying this later "theology", but that's why it's not to be taken so literally but as some sort of a interesting story arc to bridge traditions - and frankly try to create a sort of new religion.

 

I see Kratos and other's doing this same thing in their arc of theology. My biggest contention is when anything like that is taken as "Gospel Truth". At the best it's a human invention to try to make sense of life. But there's lots of those out there and why should anyone be so married to something like that as to see others as "wrong"?