What Does It Mean To Blaspheme The Holy Spirit?

[mwc]

Now on to actual business...

 

BLASPHEMY

 

The first biblical mention of blasphemy is in Lev. 24:10-16. where a man is stoned to death at God's command after the man "blasphemed the name of the Lord, and cursed." The LXX translation, "he named the Name and cursed," reflects the ancient Jewish view that unnecessary pronunciation of God's sacred name (Yahweh) was itself a great sacrilege. Indeed, the rabbinical view enshrined in the Mishnah (Sanh 7.5) is that a person is punishable for the crime of blasphemy (a capital offense under Mosaic law) only if he pronounced the sacred Name itself. The English terms blaspheme, blasphemy come from the Gk. blasphemein and blasphemia, and, like their Greek equivalents, they render several Hebrew terms in the OT (e.g., gadap, ne'asah), The OT passages where these terms appear describe a variety of cases where someone speaks against God, reviling him, making light of him. etc. (e.g.. 2 Sam. 12:14; Pss. 44:16; 74:10. I8:2 Kings 19:3, 6, 22; Ezek. 35:12-13), reflecting a wider conception of blasphemy than the tech¬nical definition of the crime in rabbinic tradition.

 

Blasphemy is referred to far more frequently in the NT than in the OT. and the Greek terms are often used in an extended and more general sense, following Greek usage, to convey abusive or slanderous talk about human beings or religious teaching (Titus 3:2 or 2 Pet. 2:12) — although ultimately such talk is always regarded as an offense against God. Still, in many significant instances the NT bears witness to a narrower concept of blasphemy. In the Gospels the Jews charge Jesus with blasphemy: "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy: and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:33). In Mark 2:7 blasphemy clearly involves laying claim to divine authority or prerogative (e.g.. to forgive sins), so violating God's unapproachable and infinite majesty (see Gerhard Kind, ed., TDNT [1964], s.v. blasphemia). This becomes the formal grounds on which the Sanhedrin condemns Jesus to death (Mark 14:64). The early Christian community quickly extended this sense of God's majesty to Jesus himself, considering any denial of his status as Messiah or any insult directed to him as blasphemy (1 Tim. 1:13 or Acts 13:45).

 

Patristic writers, who usually list blasphemy among the "sins unto death" (e.g., Tertullian, Adv. Marc. 4.9), define it generally as speaking anything false about God (St. Augustine, Contra mendaciam. 19.39: it is often cited in the Middle Ages, especially in biblical glosses). As a result, opposing theological positions were commonly stigmatized as blasphemy during the doctrinal controversies of the 4th cent., and the term was sometimes interchangeable with heresy (see Levy. Treason against God, 63-100). All blasphemous utterances were attributed to vices "of the heart"; pride (St. Isidore, Quaestiones in Vents Testamentum [PL 83.366-67]). and, more often, anger (St. Gregory the Great, Moralia, 36.45), especially when misfortune prompts people to question God's justice (St. Jerome, Comm. in Epistolam ad Ephesianos, 3:14).

 

...

 

Under the influence of this “Byronic" notion of blasphemy post-Romantic writers tended to stress the spirit in which blasphemy is uttered more than its object as it is misrepresented by words (see Foster, "Blasphemous Poets," 394-96). Thus Ruskin writes that "The real sin of blasphemy is not in the saying, nor even in the thinking; but in the wishing which is father to thought and word: and the nature of it is simply in wishing evil to anything" ("Fiction Fair and Foul—IV,†par. 96). Here the concept of blasphemy is stretched to the utmost. Blasphemy may he directed against any morally innocent object; the malice which prompts it, not the words themselves, is what matters. Herman Melville's Starbuck thinks of blasphemy in just this elastic manner when he denounces as blasphemous Captain Ahab's vengeful fury at Moby Dick, a "dumb brute" (Moby-Dick, chap. 36). Except in historical plays (W. B. Yeats's Resurrection. 120-22: G. B. Shaw's Saint Joan, 6) and in works with an anticlerical bent (James Joyce's Ulysses, episode 1), modern writers generally conceive of blasphemy in these subjective terms, often 'wondering if such defiance of God (when God is its object) is itself a sign of belief. So, Eugene O'Neill's architect Dion Anthony boasts that his newly drawn cathedral will be "one vivid blasphemy from sidewalk to the tips of its spires." adding "Well, blasphemy is faith, isn't it?" (The Great God Brown, 2.3).

---

A Dictionary of biblical tradition in English literature

By David L. Jeffrey (pp. 92-93)

 

The article is quite a bit longer but this covers the stuff that is relevant here. The Jews had a fairly narrow definition of blasphemy and it got wider when the xians came along. It got wider yet when the church fathers did their bit.

 

It's tough to really know what what meant what "blaspheming the HS" truly means because if it's the Jewish standard then what's the name of the HS? That would make it impossible to ever blaspheme it since we don't know its name. According to the article then it would have to take on the second paragraph in which you follow the Greek where it says "to convey abusive or slanderous talk about human beings or religious teaching" or perhaps "violating God's unapproachable and infinite majesty." I guess you'd have to talk a little trash about the HS and/or say its not really so great (or that you/anyone else are just as good as the HS diminishing its stature).

 

Anything else comes from the church fathers (or later) and is questionable as to whether it applies or not (which is why I quoted that last paragraph to show roughly where the concept is at today).

 

mwc

[been there done that]

In my previous posts, I realize I didn't completely address some topics (I was always well aware of that), but the first issue that had to be dealt with was all of the wreckless negativity.

 

If you're looking for bleeding heart gestures of martyrdom, I will be your greatest disappointment ever, I promise you that I am nobody's doormat and will treat no one as a primadonna.

Just in case you feel this is unbiblical...Brethen are KIN, but will receive no special treatment (there are no primadonnas)...

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/trans...;t=RSV&sf=5

 

I know what it's like to be a victim of betrayal (51 years of suicidal depression from a severely dysfunctional family that resented me, and then the mammon founded institutions of man's institutional Christianity did the same thing). For 3 years now, "I am who I am" has taught me to be strong in myself and overcome the 'identity crisis of christianity' known as "self abasement" (Colossians 2:18) which is the CORE crime against humanity ever taught/committed by the institutions of christianity (dehumanization).

 

Like I said before, there is no greater GodLOVER than an ex-christian (because they left "FAITH" in favor of LOVE...God is LOVE, the GREATEST of these). The mere act of LEAVING MAMMON christianity was the ultimate act of love for the creator (and you did it EVEN at the RISK/thought of forfeitting salvation and committing the "unpardonable" sin that MAN will not forgive, and being subject to man/s definitions of blasphemy). Your love is a monument to the creator because it is not based solely on the fact that God chose us, it is based on the fact that you chose Him (and rejected mammon).

 

I made the decision to leave the RC church when I was ten years old because of all the hypocritical teachings and behavior. I fully expected that I would be killed as a heretic and forever damned to hell by the end of the week (because that's what I was taught) and fully accepted that God should do this to me because, technically, I was a traitor to Him. Of course God already knew, but I still declared to Him that "I'm not leaving because I don't love Him, I'm leaving because I do".

 

God presented me with that opportunity to TEMPER my LOVE for Him (God is LOVE).

 

After another 20 years, I again became convinced that the bible contains the truth about God, it does, but man's "INTERPRETATIONS" pervert it's meaning so profusely.

 

...............................................You don't fool me!!!

[Guest Net Eng]

After another 20 years, I again became convinced that the bible contains the truth about God, it does, but man's "INTERPRETATIONS" pervert it's meaning so profusely.

 

...............................................You don't fool me!!!

 

Greetings and welcome to ExC.

 

Which version of the bible contain the "truth about god"?

 

The bible has undergone many revisions and changes over the years (like any document from ancient times. LINK. Perhaps the Gnostics versions?

 

How can anyone follow the teachings of the bible if no one can agree on what is the correct interpretation. This is one of the big reasons I call shenanigans on christianity... and other religions as well.

[mwc]

For 3 years now, "I am who I am" has taught me <snip>

 

... The mere act of LEAVING MAMMON ... it is based on the fact that you chose Him (and rejected mammon).

Oh Mammon how I love You. I love You with every fiber of my being. I love You more than anything in the Omniverse. You, Mammon are my sole reason for existing. I reject "I am who I am" and all his variants (including Popeye the Sailor) as evil deceivers. Only Mammon is Love and Truth. Only Mammon can Save. Only Mammon. I love you Mammon. Bless me with your presence.

 

Now Mr. been there done that, please, shut the fuck up. It's bad enough when you try speaking for yourself much less the rest of the class you ignorant jackass. Go bray elsewhere.

 

mwc

[Neon Genesis]

In my previous posts, I realize I didn't completely address some topics (I was always well aware of that), but the first issue that had to be dealt with was all of the wreckless negativity.

 

If you're looking for bleeding heart gestures of martyrdom, I will be your greatest disappointment ever, I promise you that I am nobody's doormat and will treat no one as a primadonna.

Just in case you feel this is unbiblical...Brethen are KIN, but will receive no special treatment (there are no primadonnas)...

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/trans...;t=RSV&sf=5

What the fuck is this supposed to mean? You make no sense.

 

 

Like I said before, there is no greater GodLOVER than an ex-christian (because they left "FAITH" in favor of LOVE...God is LOVE, the GREATEST of these).

Expect that it is logically impossible to love or hate things you don't believe in. Get it through your head. We left Christianity, therefore we don't have any feelings toward your God whatsoever BECAUSE WE DON'T BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD. Get it?

 

The mere act of LEAVING MAMMON christianity was the ultimate act of love for the creator (and you did it EVEN at the RISK/thought of forfeitting salvation and committing the "unpardonable" sin that MAN will not forgive, and being subject to man/s definitions of blasphemy). Your love is a monument to the creator because it is not based solely on the fact that God chose us, it is based on the fact that you chose Him (and rejected mammon).

Please kindly stop acting like an asshole and making assumptions about why we left Christianity. I can't speak for anyone else, but I sure as hell didn't do anything as an "act of love" for your God, so please fucking stop trying to push your agenda on us and claiming you know why we left. And the bible says JESUS WILL NOT FORGIVE US FOR THE UNPARDONABLE SIN, NOT MAN. Please read your own fucking book before you start acting like you understand even a fraction of it better than everyone else.

 

 

After another 20 years, I again became convinced that the bible contains the truth about God, it does, but man's "INTERPRETATIONS" pervert it's meaning so profusely.

 

...............................................You don't fool me!!!

So, now that you claim to be a "real" Christian but "man's interpretations are perverted, are you claiming that you're above humanity? Congratulations, you've just proven you're an asshole. And don't give me your fucking "I'm not a martyr but I'm going to whine about how "hostile" I was treated" hypocrisy crap. Stop fucking kidding yourself if you think you're not a Christian anymore just because you don't go to church three times a week. From where I stand, you're just the same as the rest of the "false" Christians you criticize. You're just another one of those "true" Christians who thinks you're better than everyone and then cries "persecution" whenever you can't stand it when your true colors are exposed.

[been there done that]

I came to this forum hoping to find some sort of philisophical discussion about human identity and humanity's imagined need to surrender their individuality in order to show respect to a 'beginning/origin'.

 

But when I came across this thread, I thought I could at least take a moment to introduce to all of you the law of COMMON SENSE.

 

You either left the whole christianity god thing and will no longer condemn yourselves, let alone use scripture and christian concepts/lingo like "unpardonable sin", "blasphemy, etc. to do it (what figment of your imagination motivates you to condemn yourself?), OR you didn't.

 

It just simply does not make sense. It's pure masochism.

 

Billions of people all throughout history have been betrayed by mammon christianity (myself included), what makes you so special that you shouldn't also suffer betrayal? Get off your high horse, suck it up, and get on with life.

 

It's that 'PRIDE' that you are special and shouldn't also suffer just like everybody else in the world that is the reason you persecute yourself.

 

Stop whining, the only one persecuting yourself is YOU.

 

Make up your mind, you either left all that behind or you're the worst hypocrites ever...EITHER/OR (either shit or get off the pot).

[MathGeek]

From here: Existentialism is a Humanism

 

This may enable us to understand what is meant by such terms – perhaps a little grandiloquent – as anguish, abandonment and despair. As you will soon see, it is very simple. First, what do we mean by anguish? – The existentialist frankly states that man is in anguish. His meaning is as follows: When a man commits himself to anything, fully realising that he is not only choosing what he will be, but is thereby at the same time a legislator deciding for the whole of mankind – in such a moment a man cannot escape from the sense of complete and profound responsibility. There are many, indeed, who show no such anxiety. But we affirm that they are merely disguising their anguish or are in flight from it. Certainly, many people think that in what they are doing they commit no one but themselves to anything: and if you ask them, “What would happen if everyone did so?†they shrug their shoulders and reply, “Everyone does not do so.†But in truth, one ought always to ask oneself what would happen if everyone did as one is doing; nor can one escape from that disturbing thought except by a kind of self-deception. The man who lies in self-excuse, by saying “Everyone will not do it†must be ill at ease in his conscience, for the act of lying implies the universal value which it denies. By its very disguise his anguish reveals itself. This is the anguish that Kierkegaard called “the anguish of Abraham.†You know the story: An angel commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son; and obedience was obligatory, if it really was an angel who had appeared and said, “Thou, Abraham, shalt sacrifice thy son.†But anyone in such a case would wonder, first, whether it was indeed an angel and secondly, whether I am really Abraham. Where are the proofs? A certain mad woman who suffered from hallucinations said that people were telephoning to her, and giving her orders. The doctor asked, “But who is it that speaks to you?†She replied: “He says it is God.†And what, indeed, could prove to her that it was God? If an angel appears to me, what is the proof that it is an angel; or, if I hear voices, who can prove that they proceed from heaven and not from hell, or from my own subconsciousness or some pathological condition? Who can prove that they are really addressed to me?

 

Who, then, can prove that I am the proper person to impose, by my own choice, my conception of man upon mankind? I shall never find any proof whatever; there will be no sign to convince me of it. If a voice speaks to me, it is still I myself who must decide whether the voice is or is not that of an angel. If I regard a certain course of action as good, it is only I who choose to say that it is good and not bad. There is nothing to show that I am Abraham: nevertheless I also am obliged at every instant to perform actions which are examples. Everything happens to every man as though the whole human race had its eyes fixed upon what he is doing and regulated its conduct accordingly. So every man ought to say, “Am I really a man who has the right to act in such a manner that humanity regulates itself by what I do.†If a man does not say that, he is dissembling his anguish. Clearly, the anguish with which we are concerned here is not one that could lead to quietism or inaction. It is anguish pure and simple, of the kind well known to all those who have borne responsibilities. When, for instance, a military leader takes upon himself the responsibility for an attack and sends a number of men to their death, he chooses to do it and at bottom he alone chooses. No doubt under a higher command, but its orders, which are more general, require interpretation by him and upon that interpretation depends the life of ten, fourteen or twenty men. In making the decision, he cannot but feel a certain anguish. All leaders know that anguish. It does not prevent their acting, on the contrary it is the very condition of their action, for the action presupposes that there is a plurality of possibilities, and in choosing one of these, they realize that it has value only because it is chosen. Now it is anguish of that kind which existentialism describes, and moreover, as we shall see, makes explicit through direct responsibility towards other men who are concerned. Far from being a screen which could separate us from action, it is a condition of action itself.

 

Maybe our new Christian friend would like a reason from secular philosophy why some of us, if not all of us, wound up here on ex-C.

 

From my own experience, I committed the unpardonable sin and a young lady told me that if I repented of my sin, I could be forgiven. I had a problem with that right at the outset. If the sin is unpardonable, how can I be forgiven for committing it?

 

And then I read some philosophy that wasn't so deep and it made all the sense in the world.

 

Committing the sin of blasphemy is a subjective choice and it only affects your life in this realm. If the supermaterial Christian God created the universe out of nothing as Guido Ubaldus had so 'conveniently' proven but he could be offended by a solitary shell of a human, then there is something seriously flawed with His constitution. This big, gigantic being that exists outside the spans of time and space can't handle a simple, angry phrase like "I deny the Holy Spirit" clearly has no true understanding of how fucking limited we are as material beings. What Sartre proved to me about Christianity is this: you make up your own meaning, you make up your own life and God's existence is really irrelevant in your life's scheme. You judge whether or not the voices or signs you see in your life come from God or not. It is your burden to bear and it is your choice to do so.

 

This is why I have no problem blaspheming the Holy Spirit anymore, and this is also why I am in favor of religious freedom.

[Snakefoot]

Holy crap.

 

A simple question with a simple answer incites a shit-throwing match suited for a zoo. And this despite the fact that an answer (and a rather definitive one at that) was supplied and blithely ignored. Ergo, let's try this one more time:

 

When I was a fundie zombie, I delved into this rather deeply--which was silly since context and verse 30 supply the answer (please forgive the scripture posting):

 

22. The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons."

.

.

28. "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;

29. but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--

30. because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

 

So, saying that a "miracle" performed by someone who "has the holy spirit" was actually a miracle performed by an "unclean spirit" (e.g. Beelzebul/bub, Satan, et al) blasphemes the holy spirit. Put another way, blasphemy of the holy spirit is attributing its performances to the Devil or other demons.

[dunany77]

You either left the whole christianity god thing and will no longer condemn yourselves, let alone use scripture and christian concepts/lingo like "unpardonable sin", "blasphemy, etc. to do it (what figment of your imagination motivates you to condemn yourself?), OR you didn't.

 

It just simply does not make sense. It's pure masochism.

I think you are a little confused Mr. Been. Anyone who has left religion or christianity is free from all the bullshit that those beliefs required of the follower. Being an ex-christian means having the unique ability to look back at a life that was lived for all intents and purposes, as a lie. A human being cannot experience years and years of indoctrination and simply just walk away. What I personally am doing is re-examining my old life and old beliefs to see where I went wrong and why. It's kind of like poking a stick at a dead fish on the beach. You wonder what disease caused it's death. Was it environmental? Did it get attacked by other fish?

 

Looking back and asking questions about things like unpardonable sins helps us to laugh at ourselves, find answers to questions that were not clear before and to simply get it out of our(my) systems.

 

Nobody here is condemning themselves! The fact that we enjoy blaspheming the great I AM THAT I AM'NT is because we know its a scam and a lie! It is meaningless to blaspheme something that doesn't exist! Get it? I've committed the unpardonable sin a million times since I woke up from the God-Lie because it once held such meaning to me and now it is meaningless!

 

It's that 'PRIDE' that you are special and shouldn't also suffer just like everybody else in the world that is the reason you persecute yourself.

I am PROUD that I am SPECIAL because I am the master of my own destiny. A sheep-boy who follows invisible ghosts has given up his life for a lie. You want to live in a fairy-tale book, be my guest. I am taking my life into my own hands, and you know what I want to do with it? I want a shitload of MAMMON! I used to give away 10 fucking percent of my MAMMON to the goddamed invisible ghost! What a scam!!!! I'm keeping all my MAMMON now and aim to get a lot more too! MAMMON is GOOD!

 

Make up your mind, you either left all that behind or you're the worst hypocrites ever...EITHER/OR (either shit or get off the pot).

You take yourself wherever you go. Nobody leaves anything behind, you ass. I've got ten years of indoctrination stored up in my noodle that needs undoing. It might take a year it might take a lifetime. The only hypocrite around here is the dumb-ass who says he's a real christian. Your a ball of confusion just like all the rest. You have no idea how deluded and deceived you are. There is no GOD. No YAHWEH. No JESUS. No HOLY SPIRIT. No TRUTH in the BIBLE. It's just you and your fucked up brain!

 

I look forward to the day when you finally realize all the lies you've swallowed and come to this forum looking for honest dialogue and some serious help. Until then, you are a blind man on a rocking chair in a room full of long tailed cats.

[chefranden]

Hello,

 

I am new here. First, let me make this statement...

 

An EX-christian is the greatest Godlover of all...

 

So when did homeless nut cases get access to the internet?

[insanezenmistress]

I came to this forum hoping to find some sort of philisophical discussion about human identity and humanity's imagined need to surrender their individuality in order to show respect to a 'beginning/origin'.

 

But when I came across this thread, I thought I could at least take a moment to introduce to all of you the law of COMMON SENSE.

 

You either left the whole christianity god thing and will no longer condemn yourselves, let alone use scripture and christian concepts/lingo like "unpardonable sin", "blasphemy, etc. to do it (what figment of your imagination motivates you to condemn yourself?), OR you didn't.

 

It just simply does not make sense. It's pure masochism.

 

Billions of people all throughout history have been betrayed by mammon christianity (myself included), what makes you so special that you shouldn't also suffer betrayal? Get off your high horse, suck it up, and get on with life.

 

It's that 'PRIDE' that you are special and shouldn't also suffer just like everybody else in the world that is the reason you persecute yourself.

 

Stop whining, the only one persecuting yourself is YOU.

 

Make up your mind, you either left all that behind or you're the worst hypocrites ever...EITHER/OR (either shit or get off the pot).

 

 

 

Now, i never took psych 101 but me thinks you are preaching to your own chior. Sounds like, you really need a philo/psychological conversaton. I smell alot of aungst.

 

This is normal i think. It was for me. I spent many years trying to correct chrisitanity, trying to refine my understanding of the thigns i saw in order to be true to myself and true to god. Eventauly in my searching i found that NO MAN whatsoever has the answer.

Just many many ideas. You are what i would call in a half deconverted state.

 

At this point you could become elated by any new biblical teaching. I was. During my time to refine and clairify what i thought christ really ment 2000 years ago, i leaped on to universalism and also the new Manifest sons of god kind of teahcing.

 

What i really discovered was that the more a human tried to refine chrisitanity the more personally defined and mystical their god becomes. And the longer that you play this game with yourself the more ostrasised from any like mind you become. Enevidably your philosophy is unintelligible to any spiritaul group.

 

Better, i think, to become versed in other ways to refine your hommage to god. Get out of the christian box of mangled interpretation and you may find better terms for defineing your spiritaul mentality.

 

I like your thought about atheists who leave are loving god more..........simply in the vein of becasue god's first comment ment is to have no image. An athesit is not blasphemeing for having no image of god. He is obedient to the first commandment.

 

But that is as far as i think i go. An Atheist, regardless of their past religion have come to let go of the imagination of god.

 

Therefore when you come in and insist that they are comming closer to god becasue they left the *mammon* you are mistaken.

 

They may come to better humanity, clearer mental health, or even more appreciation of human spiritaul poetry and self knowledge. But they are not trying to refine christianity. Now they may have, before comming to the place called atheism. Maybe that is the place you wanted to have this conversation about.

 

Discuss the in between of leaving church and leaving god. The question for you *been there* is where are you? What is going on in your spirit? What is it that you are yelling at yourself about?

 

(((dont try to say you arent, but it is the bad atheist insulters.........have you ever heard of the mirror? Those things that irritate us most are defects we see in yourselves. You are preaching something but who is the message for?))))

 

Jessy. ( sorry slightly off topic you can remove if it is too bad)

[chefranden]

...After another 20 years, I again became convinced that the bible contains the truth about God, it does, but man's "INTERPRETATIONS" pervert it's meaning so profusely.

 

...............................................You don't fool me!!!

 

So then, here you are a man, I presume, making yet another INTERPRETATION (interpretation 1bazillion and 1?) and we are supposed to take it as the "truth". So finally again just in the nick of time TheTruth™ has arrived at Ex-Christian.

 

Now please don't go on about how your 51 years of wisdom had qualified you to make TheTruth™ plain to us all. I'm 58. I have 7 more years of wisdom than you. That 7 years tells me that you are full of shit, though I'm sure that you actually believe that you are full of milk and honey. I've also suffered from clinical depression for years though for other reasons. I'm not sure if my depression is greater than yours so we'll just call it even.

 

Now that we have established our credentials I seek to tell you that your posts are quite arrogant and the reason you are suffering the slings and arrows of hostility.

 

If your version out of myriads of versions has cured your insanity more power to you. However, that doesn't make your version "TheTruth™".

 

Now I'm sure you sincerely think you are handing us the world on a golden platter, but just try for a moment to pull your head out of the shit opps milk and honey, and try to see your self from the perspective of the folks here. Then go away and pluck out the log of self righteousness that has lodged firmly in your eye before you start again.

[JernJane]

I'm sorry about not addressing your post before, but I was distracted by all the hostility of other posts.

 

You are like a circus director trying to convince escaped elephants to quietly go back into their cages and you expect anything else than hostility? Approach with humility and you might be spared the hostility.

 

I decided to know NOTHING but CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED. I don't know (or care) about...

 

Then your folly, dishonesty and cowardice is as great as your ignorance. There is nothing anyone here or elsewhere can do for you. You care nothing for truth, only for what a 2000 year old book which happens to be the holy book of the religion which happens to be the dominant one in the country you happen to have grown up in.

 

This means that I made the personal choice to know 'ONLY about Jesus and His being CRUCIFED (Paul did this also, it is allowed,...you can also make this decision if you'd like).

 

What of Paul's commendation of the Bereans, who (although they arrived at the wrong conclusion), honestly sought to see if what they were told was true?

 

 

After all, our wisdom is not to be found in parables...(but scholars like to PLAY wth them)...

 

You know nothing of wisdom. You have demonstrated your folly beyond what I ever thought I would see in any person - religious or not.

 

Everything BEFORE the spirit was given is not relevant to NEW Testament worship/devotion...(but scholars like to PLAY)...

 

Before the spirit? Is that the Holy Spirit you are talking about? Then I suppose you ignore all the places in the Bible which directly proclaim that the prophets were filled with said spirit? And not only that, but some 300+ claimed prophecies about Christ are then, by your own words, not only invalid, but irrelevant.

 

Mind our own affairs? Excuse me, whoever you are, but you are the one who has come into a forum for ex-Christians. What you doing here if you so soundly believe in minding your own business?

 

You have not brought one single remotely interesting point to this discussion and then you start posting in caps, shrieking because you know that you are on thin ice.

 

Fall through, feel the icey water, wake up and face yourself.

[chefranden]

Now, i never took psych 101 but me thinks you are preaching to your own chior. Sounds like, you really need a philo/psychological conversaton. I smell alot of aungst...

 

Amen! Ya hit the nail on the head.

[chefranden]

You either left the whole christianity god thing and will no longer condemn yourselves, let alone use scripture and christian concepts/lingo like "unpardonable sin", "blasphemy, etc. to do it (what figment of your imagination motivates you to condemn yourself?), OR you didn't.

 

It just simply does not make sense. It's pure masochism.

 

Ahh didn't you say you spent 51 or 20 years or something making up your pile of bullshit? But now you think that everyone here should just change in a second? Is that what makes your nose itch?

 

Perhaps you didn't read the purpose of this site?

 

...This forum exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind. It is not an open challenge to Christians to avenge what they perceive as an offense against their invisible friend...

 

Sorry if we don't come up to the particular philosophical expectations that you have pulled out of your ass, but life is full of these little disappointments.

 

Lots of folks here like philosophical argument, and will perhaps respond to one if you ever get around to making one instead of the holier than thou/smarter than you bullshit you have so far posted.

[HuaiDan]

In China the final day of the spring festival (the week following Chinese New Year) is in honor of Mammon. The second noisiest day of spring festival, the Chinese light copious amounts of fireworks to invite Mammon to their homes and bring wealth in the coming year.

[Neon Genesis]

I came to this forum hoping to find some sort of philisophical discussion about human identity and humanity's imagined need to surrender their individuality in order to show respect to a 'beginning/origin'.

 

But when I came across this thread, I thought I could at least take a moment to introduce to all of you the law of COMMON SENSE.

 

You either left the whole christianity god thing and will no longer condemn yourselves, let alone use scripture and christian concepts/lingo like "unpardonable sin", "blasphemy, etc. to do it (what figment of your imagination motivates you to condemn yourself?), OR you didn't.

This makes no logical sense whatsoever. You claim that you came here to discuss religion and philosophy to us yet you don't want us to discuss scripture if we left Christianity even though you want to discuss scripture? That's like saying you want to discuss politics with us to convert us to your brand of politics but you don't want us to talk about your brand of politics yet you want to discuss them with us. How the fuck can we debate something with you like you want to with us if you don't want us to debate something with you? I think you're the one who needs to stop being a hypocrite and make up your mind if you want to us debate religion with you or not. Fine, then. If that's the way you want to play, since you think Christianity is the one true way, then you don't have a right to discuss other religious beliefs or lack thereof with us unless you agree with those beliefs or lack of beliefs. See how illogical your "reasoning" is?

 

 

 

Billions of people all throughout history have been betrayed by mammon christianity (myself included), what makes you so special that you shouldn't also suffer betrayal? Get off your high horse, suck it up, and get on with life.

 

It's that 'PRIDE' that you are special and shouldn't also suffer just like everybody else in the world that is the reason you persecute yourself.

You makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Stop whining, the only one persecuting yourself is YOU.

Um, last I checked, you were the one who came here and tried to convert us to your beliefs and claim that we weren't "true" Christians. You yourself said that you were trying to give us "common sense" (isn't the bible and common sense an oxymoron?), so you sure as hell are the ones who came here to persecute us.

 

Make up your mind, you either left all that behind or you're the worst hypocrites ever...EITHER/OR (either shit or get off the pot).

Now, is that very Christ-like for you to say? Aren't Christians supposed to be slow to speak and tame their tongue or something like that? And here I thought you were supposed to be a "true" Christian. Thanks for showing us that you were lying about being a "true" Christian.

[Neon Genesis]

So, saying that a "miracle" performed by someone who "has the holy spirit" was actually a miracle performed by an "unclean spirit" (e.g. Beelzebul/bub, Satan, et al) blasphemes the holy spirit. Put another way, blasphemy of the holy spirit is attributing its performances to the Devil or other demons.

Thanks for the explanation but I'm confused if this includes atheists or not. Atheists don't believe in either miracles or Satan, so would we still be blaspheming the Holy Spirit if we disbelieve in miracles even though we don't believe in Satan either, and so we couldn't attribute something to someone we don't believe exists?

[Antlerman]

Billions of people all throughout history have been betrayed by mammon christianity (myself included), what makes you so special that you shouldn't also suffer betrayal? Get off your high horse, suck it up, and get on with life.

 

It's that 'PRIDE' that you are special and shouldn't also suffer just like everybody else in the world that is the reason you persecute yourself.

 

Stop whining, the only one persecuting yourself is YOU.

 

Make up your mind, you either left all that behind or you're the worst hypocrites ever...EITHER/OR (either shit or get off the pot).

I'm planning to engage in a reasoned response to your thoughts as promised, but I do feel compelled to say one thing that's not philosophical, but just human. I think perhaps you need to take a serious step back and try to humbly recognize that people 'get on with life' at different points in different ways. Not everyone equals you. What you did to 'get on with it', may not work identically the same for everyone else. Some people are raw, brand new in the discovery process. Other's just have to process things in ways that works for them.

 

To simply say to them "get over it!", lacks compassion and understanding on many, many levels. It also lacks wisdom. It's best to take a step back and try to see world through the eyes of others in their widely diverse personalities, histories, and experiences, as opposed to looking at everything only through your own experiences. My suggestion is you try to genuinely listen to what people are saying.

 

Compassion and Wisdom, are hallmarks of what the religious ideal should be. If they are not, then I nor anyone else would see any value whatsoever in engaging in a discussion to find the truth of a thing, if in the end it is merely just an argument and doesn't produce the 'fruits of the spirit'. I'm genuinely interested in and will respect any belief that at the end of the day makes us more compassionate and understanding humans. If it doesn't have that, than it's broken and not worth consideration.

 

Understand?

[Ouroboros]

I came to this forum hoping to find some sort of philisophical discussion about human identity and humanity's imagined need to surrender their individuality in order to show respect to a 'beginning/origin'.

 

But when I came across this thread, I thought I could at least take a moment to introduce to all of you the law of COMMON SENSE.

Unfortunately you decided to engage in the worst place possible. This section is called "The Lion's Den", and we have dedicated this part of the forum to be a less restricted and let people say what's on their mind about things. Kind of a rant section, but in a discussion format. Sorry that you had to get that as your first impression. If you had decided to read the rules for this section, you would have known this before you entered. So, in some sense, you have to blame yourself for going into the heat of the battle and expect everyone to put down their weapons because you're such a "nice guy." To bad it doesn't work here.

 

My suggestion to you is to remove yourself from this part of the forum, and engage in debates in one of the other sections instead.

 

...

Make up your mind, you either left all that behind or you're the worst hypocrites ever...EITHER/OR (either shit or get off the pot).

I see you're lacking a bit of understanding of the process people have to go through to free themselves from the bonds and shackles of religion. It's a process. It takes time. The first years, for many, are a time of questions and ranting about the concept of religion, but over time, like myself, you become less and less interested or bothered by it. Most of members that are active on this website are so, either because they are just in this part of the process - to cleanse themselves of the thoughts and wondering - and some are just participating for the joy of debating - like me.

 

See it this way. People were "hurt" in a sense by religion or by the religious people. After being hurt, if you compare it to physical hurt, you need a time of healing. If you go to a hospital and someone is healing up after a serious injury, do you, as the "good hearted person" you seem to be, tell them "Damn you, sick fuck, get up from the bed and show you're a man and can overcome that pretended illness!" Do you? I guess you would. Doesn't that show how little understanding and empathy you have?

 

So my second suggestion to you is to step back and think about what this website is about. This site is the oasis for the newly de-converted from Christianity. A person who has lost his faith in Christianity and now try to find his way to a new life. You come in here, and assume, that you know better than them, and that you know how they should behave. I say: shame on you! They need this website to vent their frustration, and who cares if you get hurt in the process, since the primary purpose is not to help you to understand Christianity, but for the newly Ex-Christians to understand themselves, life, the world and the stupidity of religion.

 

But you want to, you and I could go into a personal debate about what this website is about, and what the people here need and not need, and you can try to convince me that you know them better than they - themselves - do. Are you willing?

 

As moderator,

 

Hans

[been there done that]

I am going to reveal a truth that all of humanity (including christianity) has never realized...we are NOT supposed to live according to the bible.

 

Yes, that's right, I said it.

 

Traditional/institutional "christianity" has always been made up of people from all walks of life and included people like Hitler, child molesters, tax cheats, etc.,...and completetely decent/peaceful people have also found this "christian biblicalism soup" compatible/comfortable with their lifestyles/agenda.

 

Now, this may seem inconsistent to you (a sign of utter sanity), but to the modern day Pharisees ("Brood of Vipers") and moneychangers of the collection plate, it was always a perfect way to maintain membership so they could keep the money flowing.

 

The "Brood of Vipers" has always been aided by the god of confusion (and not completely involuntarily by all of humanity) to inflict the "STRONG delusion" that God promised would decieve even the elect if they refused to love the objective truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10) and so be saved (the strong delusion is not a FUTURE event, but christiany feels more comfortable egotistically believing that it is).

 

Scripture (the word "bible" is not of scripture) has always been treated as a 'roadmap to God", but it is not, it is a stepping stone, the introductory doctrine of Jesus (Hebrews 6:1), but the real word of God...

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/trans...;t=RSV&sf=5

 

...so that if we make a clear distinction between right and wrong (as with a sword), the result will be that we have a Godly character/spirit and can have our conscience purified also (Hebrews 9:14).

 

Hopefully now, you're less anxious to crucify me for my original statement that we should not live according to the "bible" and you'll be more willing to understand a more generic (non-partisan) understanding of God.

 

The bible contains words that God spoke up until 2000/1900 years ago, but we are to live by words that PRESENTLY proceed from the mouth of God.

 

This proof only comes from the 'law of common sense' (which christianity has traded for a book because this law is not in the bible).

 

We should know ourselves ("SELF"/indivciduality) in order to be able to know and identify with "I am who I am", but christianity has always encouraged "self abasement"...

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/trans...;t=RSV&sf=5

 

...and without retaining our own human identity, common sense is elusive.

 

 

 

 

In case you missed the proof I gave, read the WHOLE SENTENCE of the proof again (the great scholars would not enjoy only one sentence)...

 

..."The bible contains words that God spoke up until 2000/1900 years ago, but we are to live by words that PRESENTLY proceed from the mouth of God".

[Neon Genesis]

I'm sorry been there done that, but that entire post of yours makes no sense whatsoever and I fail to see what the fuck it has to do with the rest of this thread.

[Snakefoot]

So, saying that a "miracle" performed by someone who "has the holy spirit" was actually a miracle performed by an "unclean spirit" (e.g. Beelzebul/bub, Satan, et al) blasphemes the holy spirit. Put another way, blasphemy of the holy spirit is attributing its performances to the Devil or other demons.

Thanks for the explanation but I'm confused if this includes atheists or not. Atheists don't believe in either miracles or Satan, so would we still be blaspheming the Holy Spirit if we disbelieve in miracles even though we don't believe in Satan either, and so we couldn't attribute something to someone we don't believe exists?

 

Well, obvously no one can blaspheme what does not exist by any means. But for the sake of discussion, let's compare blasphemy to profanity.

 

What, exactly, is profanity? George Carlin's Seven Forbidden Words? Why is calling someone the illegitimate progeny of a female canine usually not considered profanity but calling them a bastard son-of-a-bitch is?

 

It seems that heresy, like profanity, is in the ear of the beholder.

[Antlerman]

This proof only comes from the 'law of common sense' (which christianity has traded for a book because this law is not in the bible).

I do understand what you're saying BT (abbreviating your user name). I have to share a thought that has occurred to me as I read your post. You actually are going through your own process the same as us, and in many regards are more like us than not. I understand that what you see as the important message, the message of "common sense" as you call it, the message of humanity, is what is important and not all the religious doctrines that people get hung on in their religious system. I believe that's why you relate to most of us in our breaking away from it to whatever path we've found that's giving us what that system could not.

 

Here's the point. You've sorted this out for yourself by trying to make sense of it in light of God from a different perspective, which you've been attempting to share with us. That's fine. We also have different perspectives as well, that we've found is helping us sort it all out. It's great to share and dialog our ideas with one another, but you need to be sensitive in presenting ones that are easily taken as preaching out of the Bible at us. That's a raw nerve here.

 

Not that you can't use the Bible if it's what makes sense to you in how you read it, but trust me... it's all in how you present your thoughts. Always be highly mindful to not tell people what the Bible says as it will surely be met with dispute, but if you present your thoughts more in the light of what you see or what it means to you it's hard to argue your feelings about something. They're your feelings and who can dispute them? It's the art of diplomacy; presenting your thoughts in ways that are mindful of others. "A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver."

 

Anyway, I hope this helps some. I would be interested in a discussion of your thoughts should you wish.

[chefranden]

In case you missed the proof I gave, read the WHOLE SENTENCE of the proof again (the great scholars would not enjoy only one sentence)...

 

..."The bible contains words that God spoke up until 2000/1900 years ago, but we are to live by words that PRESENTLY proceed from the mouth of God".

 

Galatians1:6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be

eternally condemned!

9As we have already said, so now I say again:

If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be

eternally condemned!

 

I'd say you are toast Been old boy. That is if God is real, which God isn't. Since Grandpa Harley isn't around I just say you've gotten into the bathtub gin once too often and hope Gramps would approve.

 

 

----------------------- This message has been approved by the mouth of God. ----------------------------------