Guest eejay Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 And if we offend this so called perfect being, what would be his point to eternally torture us. Shit, we humans kill so many things that offend us, like flies, mosquitoes, ants and roaches to name a few. They offend us and we kill them. Not torture them. So if god just killed us, which would make a lt more sense, but to torture us, forever and ever and ever........ I also, will never accept xtianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 We are atheists in practicality, and maybe spiritual outside practicality. Your spiritual life is mutually exclusive of your daily life. Too bad most fundamentalists can't respond thoughtfully to those ideas. Thank you for getting down to the bottom line MathGeek. Christianity and most other religion as well, is so divorced from daily living. Christians do their daily activities just like everyone else and for the most part, if they didn't have a picture of a fish on their car you would never know they bought into the dogma. Anyway that last statement is challenging to anyone who holds any religious or theistic position. It is well worth thinking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 How exactly, is getting up in the morning... Most people masturbate. God hates that. I know because my mom told me. But I think it is his fault. If he had made our arms shorter we couldn't reach. All we need for salvation is shorter arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 News Flash : Bible Proves You Can Be Good Enough For God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 We could prattle on about this issue ad-nauseum, but how far do you think about this issue in your daily life? I think about it from time to time. It is the main reason why I will never go back to the Christian religion. I have only thought about it more often since I left Christianity as well. In fact, posting here obsessively is part of my life. But, does it really affect the status quo at large? Not likely since the memory of the status quo is short like a firecracker fuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 The matter of wickedness as far as the Christianity goes has to do with offending God. Let me explain. You can be a pretty moral person according to our american morals that base morality on the degree you offend someone else, and still live a life of wickedness to God. You see the reason that the sins we all agree are horrible such as murder and rape are horrible because of the fact that the person being raped or murdered has value placed on them by God. The offense to person is terrible. The offense to the One who created that person is worse. So it is with matters that do not directly hurt anyone else. The issue is how it affects God. Were you even paying attention to the original post? Amethyst is talking about living a normal average life. Just going about her regular day. Her regular day does NOT INCLUDE murder, rape, assault, or even so much as speeding through a school zone. Maybe you think the "normal life" of nonbelievers includes these activities on a daily basis, but that is a brainfuck on YOUR part, not ours. Now would you like to attempt to address this issue while actually STAYING within the CONTEXT Amethyst provided? It might actually require real thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Most people masturbate. God hates that. I know because my mom told me. But I think it is his fault. If he had made our arms shorter we couldn't reach. All we need for salvation is shorter arms. Doesn't the bible say we're supposed to cut off our hand if it causes us to sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 What the fundie should have mentioned while discussing his religious bullshit is the alleged holiness of god. You see, god is holy! We are not, and we offend god by doing unholy shit that pisses him off. God is a mass murderer many times worse than Hitler, but he is still holy! As he says in the bible, "Be holy for I am holy." I guess that means we should imitate his behavior and kill a bunch of folks when we get pissed off. Glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 18, 2008 Author Share Posted June 18, 2008 Were you even paying attention to the original post? Amethyst is talking about living a normal average life. Just going about her regular day. Her regular day does NOT INCLUDE murder, rape, assault, or even so much as speeding through a school zone. Maybe you think the "normal life" of nonbelievers includes these activities on a daily basis, but that is a brainfuck on YOUR part, not ours. Now would you like to attempt to address this issue while actually STAYING within the CONTEXT Amethyst provided? It might actually require real thought. That is what I cannot understand about Christians. Even as a Christian, I didn't think non-Christians lived such different lives from me (aside from, perhaps, going to the bar and getting drunk or going to wild parties or something). Which I don't do, because I am an introvert, and I also don't see the point in getting drunk for the sake of getting drunk just so you can have a hangover the next morning. I have said already -- my day consists of getting up, showering, sometimes eating breakfast, going to work and processing engineering documentation, and coming home. Yes, sadly, I have no life. I am basically a nerd. I play a lot of computer games, I read books sometimes, and go to the movies and library and coffee shop from time to time. But I don't do anything differently that I wouldn't have done as a Christian. My interests have not changed one bit, except that I no longer have a god belief. And yet it is that thought crime which supposedly warrants eternal torture (or murder if you're of the liberal "death/separation" viewpoint), because the Christian god is so horribly offended that I believe that eternal torture or murder for thought crimes is unethical, immoral, and evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 How exactly, is getting up in the morning, eating breakfast, going to work, and coming home from work, so horrible and terrible that we need to be saved? I harm no one by any of the activities I do on a day-to-day basis. I simply do not believe that living a normal life makes me so terribly evil and wicked that I deserve eternal torture. I know that I am a good person, despite what your religion says. I have, in short, self-esteem. And yet, that is exactly what the core tenet of Christianity is -- that by going through your day-to-day lives, you are horrible, awful, depraved, unclean, etc. and need saving from eternal torture. It promotes self hatred. I believe that the vast majority of people are actually good. Or at least, they are so neutral that they cannot really be considered evil. Not like Hitler. Not like Saddam Hussein. Let's face it, the vast majority of people only break traffic laws. It's not like the average person is a thief, or a rapist, or a killer. And eternal torment for going 5 miles an hour over the speed limit seems a bit ridiculous, doesn't it? And let's face it, eternal torment for a good person simply because they do not belong to the world's most popular religion seems just...well, a tad unfair. I mean, why should an average, ordinary person who grew up in say -- Asia -- be tortured forever simply because they were Buddhist because that is the belief system of their culture? So again -- I have yet to hear any Christian able to justify eternal torment for anyone who lives a normal life. I mean really. How cruel can you be, to justify torture, literally forever, to average people living average lives simply because they do not believe in *your* god? You have to be really, really cruel and depraved to do that. Or totally and completely brainwashed. So let's hear, from the Christians, exactly why they want to keep the Christian label. Why fear eternal hellfire and damnation for leading average lives? When it would be so unfair and cruel, and your god is supposed to be kind and loving? How can you people honestly keep believing in this nonsense? Or are you like me when I went to church even though I disagreed with hell, and later realized that I could not honestly call myself a Christian because I could no longer believe in the hell doctrine? And if so, why then do you still cling to the Christian label? If it is for social acceptance -- and in my case it was -- can you at least not be honest with yourself and admit to yourself that you are agnostic or deist or atheist or whatever, even if you can't be honest with the people around you? Haven't read anything but the OP, but am in a mood to spew a response..... I would think, Amethyst, that even though we participate at a level where we perceive perpitrating "little harm", that some of the "little harm" still doesn't achieve a standard to participate in God's kingdom, and with that, a need to be saved.....for example, when I commit adultry with my eyes, or when a thought goes through my head that I would have rather it had not.... I can say now honestly, that some of that does not have the draw to it that it once did, and I accredit that to Christ. With that, I still look, and think, and am understanding that this still won't pass in Heaven.....so again, the need for Christ, who has been there, done that, and can identify with these problems. (Please don't tell me how His identification with us is illogical, as I have been made aware.) On another front, I don't know why so many have taken "to truth" what some preacher has put forth...the hell thing specifically. I am myself, uncertain of many of these "understandings" people have put out there, and yes, possibly for manipulation, or whatever. I don't give hell the damning credit that some people give it, but understand an existance without Love would probably suck. So those are a couple of reasons I hang in there.... ....looking back a couple of posts, I think I am just rehashing Bro Jeff's interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Most people masturbate. God hates that. I know because my mom told me. But I think it is his fault. If he had made our arms shorter we couldn't reach. All we need for salvation is shorter arms. Doesn't the bible say we're supposed to cut off our hand if it causes us to sin? Why of course! Then your arm is shorter. Ah, the wisdom of the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outback Jack Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 I don't give hell the damning credit that some people give it, that some of the "little harm" still doesn't achieve a standard to participate in God's kingdom, and with that, a need to be saved.... Hmmmm. I think I detect a contradiction here. AFAIK the bible quite clearly lays out that any unbelievers will be sent to hell and clearly lays out how horrible it will be. I haven't read enough of your posts to know exactly what you're getting at, End, but your above quoted statements remind me of something my beloved fundy-uncle once tried to lay on me. He tells me that hell shouldn't be a reason to believe but he insists that he is "saved". You seem to be implying the same thing. When I asked him what he was being saved from, he refused to answer. Could you please tell me from what I need to be "saved"? (In other words, if I'm not going to "participate in god's kingdom" what will I get to participate in?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 I don't give hell the damning credit that some people give it, that some of the "little harm" still doesn't achieve a standard to participate in God's kingdom, and with that, a need to be saved.... Hmmmm. I think I detect a contradiction here. AFAIK the bible quite clearly lays out that any unbelievers will be sent to hell and clearly lays out how horrible it will be. I haven't read enough of your posts to know exactly what you're getting at, End, but your above quoted statements remind me of something my beloved fundy-uncle once tried to lay on me. He tells me that hell shouldn't be a reason to believe but he insists that he is "saved". You seem to be implying the same thing. When I asked him what he was being saved from, he refused to answer. Could you please tell me from what I need to be "saved"? (In other words, if I'm not going to "participate in god's kingdom" what will I get to participate in?) best guess OJ ....to be saved from a world like we live in now, without any redeeming qualities. Sometimes I look at Christ more like a "sign".....do this, go this way, come here....follow me.....have faith that I am telling you the right direction.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 I don't know, is it me, or are Christians just less fun then they used to be? Haven't read anything but the OP, but am in a mood to spew a response..... I would think, Amethyst, that even though we participate at a level where we perceive perpitrating "little harm", that some of the "little harm" still doesn't achieve a standard to participate in God's kingdom, and with that, a need to be saved.....for example, when I commit adultry with my eyes, or when a thought goes through my head that I would have rather it had not.... Why don't you poke your eyes out? You really want to commit adultery with your eyes don't you? Come on admit it, else you would have poked your eyes out like you were told to. [sigh] Christians these days just have no conviction. I can say now honestly, that some of that does not have the draw to it that it once did, and I accredit that to Christ. With that, I still look, and think, and am understanding that this still won't pass in Heaven.....so again, the need for Christ, who has been there, done that, and can identify with these problems. (Please don't tell me how His identification with us is illogical, as I have been made aware.) Why shouldn't we point out the illogic, especially if you are aware of it? What about the illogic of the sin mentioned above? Jesus was tempted in all things, yet was without sin right? Does that mean that he was tempted to look at a woman, or that he was tempted to look with lust? What does it mean to be tempted to look with lust? By the time you've noticed that that woman might be an object of lust it is a bit too late isn't it? Did Jesus have a couple of extra seconds to close his eyes before his dick jumped up? No that's a serious question. Back when my dick still worked it didn't bother to wait around for any lustful thinking. It simply pointed, "hey, looky there!" Was Jesus really a man or not? If he was, his dick pointed too. Oooh perish the thought, eh what? By the way if God didn't want your dick to point, why did he make women look like that? Here you are minding your own business greasing your wheel bearings on the old ford, and Suzie pops out of the house next door with that nice sun dress on. The sound of the screen door slamming makes you glance over... Oh Lord, you're fucking bound for hell again. On another front, I don't know why so many have taken "to truth" what some preacher has put forth...the hell thing specifically. I am myself, uncertain of many of these "understandings" people have put out there, and yes, possibly for manipulation, or whatever. I don't give hell the damning credit that some people give it, but understand an existance without Love would probably suck. If you find your self in hell, what's to stop you from loving? Are you going to forget how? Start a love rebellion ferchristsake. What can they do to you? Send you to hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outback Jack Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Whoops! I never considered the "OJ" possibility before . Now that's just bad karma! Please call me "OBJ"; or "Jack" will do. to be saved from a world like we live in now, without any redeaming qualities.(bolding original!) If that's how you consider this world and your current life, then I pity you. But I also thank you. You've just justified my opinion of most religious people. Pissing away the only world we KNOW exists in order to gain admittance to the Elvin Land of Org, "Where life is beautiful all the time And I'll be happy to see Those nice, young men In their clean, white coats And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!" (edited to add a little dig at your life) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outback Jack Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 By the way if God didn't want your dick to point, why did he make women look like that? Here you are minding your own business greasing your wheel bearings on the old ford, and Suzie pops out of the house next door with that nice sun dress on. The sound of the screen door slamming makes you glance over... Oh Lord, you're fucking bound for hell again. YES I AM!! Thanks for the imagery, Chef. That made me laugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Why don't you poke your eyes out? You really want to commit adultery with your eyes don't you? Come on admit it, else you would have poked your eyes out like you were told to. the key word here would be adultery.... Why shouldn't we point out the illogic, especially if you are aware of it? Why is it not possible for me to give faith to something I do not understand, that being how Jesus was god/man. (Oh, I forgot....I have to have complete understanding or I is a dope.... ) Was Jesus really a man or not? This is something I have pondered with respect to the resurrection. It would explain to me why his body was not left/discarded, as there was no need for a new one, if he did not sin. I am sure someone will call me a heretic....can't wait. So then if you find your self in hell, what's to stop you from loving? Are you going to forget how?Start a love rebellion ferchristsake. What can they do to you? Send you to hell? Duh, he's God....he can put you in a world without Love. And if you decide to disobey then, he could pluck your nose hairs out one by one, without giving you the ability to sneeze.....gheez, worse than hell for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Whoops! I never considered the "OJ" possibility before . Now that's just bad karma! Please call me "OBJ"; or "Jack" will do. to be saved from a world like we live in now, without any redeaming qualities. If that's how you consider this world, then I pity you. But I also thank you. You've just justified my opinion of most religious people. Pissing away the only world we KNOW exists in order to gain admittance to the Elvin Land of Org, "Where life is beautiful all the time And I'll be happy to see Those nice, young men In their clean, white coats And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!" Come on Jack, In the last two days I have heard of toddlers/infants beat to death...wtf? If that is your idea of a wonderful deal....Again, where did you hear me say I was against the redeeming qualities of this world? Where did I say I was sitting on my ass pissing off this existance? You've given justification to yourself.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 18, 2008 Author Share Posted June 18, 2008 Haven't read anything but the OP, but am in a mood to spew a response..... I would think, Amethyst, that even though we participate at a level where we perceive perpitrating "little harm", that some of the "little harm" still doesn't achieve a standard to participate in God's kingdom, and with that, a need to be saved.....for example, when I commit adultry with my eyes, or when a thought goes through my head that I would have rather it had not.... Wow. Just...wow. Remember the fundamentalist description of Biblical torture. And please, think about what you are actually supporting. And how you can support it, and possibly consider yourself a decent human being. Please look deep, within yourself. You are human. You must have a heart. This is what you, as a fundamentalist, support by believing literally in the hell doctrine. Other human beings burned, to a crisp, in an infinite loop, FOR ALL TIME. Not for 5 minutes. Not for a year. Not for a century, or a millennium, but for ALL OF TIME, for the crime of thinking the wrong thing. You honestly and truly support the torture of me, personally, and everyone on this site, forever and ever and ever for merely disagreeing with you? You honestly and truly support the torture of torture small children forever, for thoughts? You honestly and truly support the torture of torture, perhaps, someone in your own family, forever and ever, for thoughts. Perhaps your own mother. Or your children. How would you know? After all, they are *THOUGHTS.* You, and the other Christians here, have not given sufficient reason to support people being burned, to a crisp, forever and ever, and ever, ad infitum, for THOUGHTS. Your god is supposed to be kind and loving, but you have shown us NOTHING but how cruel and depraved a monster he is. What kind of a tyrant tortures people forever for *THINKING?* Surely even you have to admit, at least deep down inside, that such a punishment, is cruel and unfair and evil. And even if it actually exists, out of ethics, I could not worship your tyrannical god. I could not. I would rather die free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outback Jack Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Again, where did you hear me say I was against the redeeming qualities of this world? Uh, maybe here, 1 hour ago. Its where you say there aren't any redeeming qualities. ....to be saved from a world like we live in now, without any redeeming qualities.(bolding original!) Here's how I'm seeing you right now. I figure you're so wrapped up in your bible's never-ending belittlement of the average person, you make the really stupid statement that there our lives, this world, have no redeeming value. This philosophy is the foundation of the bible. So you tow the party line while completely ignoring the beauty, love, and wonders of the world. Now that I've called you on it, you point to an un-sourced, but not unbelievable, example of the depths of human tragedy. All the while still ignoring the beauty of our daily lives. But somehow implying that I said you were "against" the beauty of the world. So what are you going to do? Make backup-beeping noises about how you didn't really mean that this world isn't without beauty? Or make backup-beeping noises and claim that I said you are against them? Either way your world-view smells like shit to me. (But thanks for staying up late. I think we're the only ones here on this schedule, but I've gotta get some sleep now. Smell ya tomorrow!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 But I also thank you. You've just justified my opinion of most religious people. Pissing away the only world we KNOW exists in order to gain admittance to the Elvin Land of Org, "Where life is beautiful all the time And I'll be happy to see Those nice, young men In their clean, white coats And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!" (edited to add a little dig at your life) You know BJ, I would rather live for Heaven than "real" things like exclusionary sub-forums that people are not given access to.....you picked a great side BJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outback Jack Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 But I also thank you. You've just justified my opinion of most religious people. Pissing away the only world we KNOW exists in order to gain admittance to the Elvin Land of Org, "Where life is beautiful all the time And I'll be happy to see Those nice, young men In their clean, white coats And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!" (edited to add a little dig at your life) You know BJ, I would rather live for Heaven than "real" things like exclusionary sub-forums that people are not given access to.....you picked a great side BJ. What the FUCK are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Again, where did you hear me say I was against the redeeming qualities of this world? Uh, maybe here, 1 hour ago. Its where you say there aren't any redeeming qualities. ....to be saved from a world like we live in now, without any redeeming qualities.(bolding original!) Here's how I'm seeing you right now. I figure you're so wrapped up in your bible's never-ending belittlement of the average person, you make the really stupid statement that there our lives, this world, have no redeeming value. This philosophy is the foundation of the bible. So you tow the party line while completely ignoring the beauty, love, and wonders of the world. Now that I've called you on it, you point to an un-sourced, but not unbelievable, example of the depths of human tragedy. All the while still ignoring the beauty of our daily lives. But somehow implying that I said you were "against" the beauty of the world. So what are you going to do? Make backup-beeping noises about how you didn't really mean that this world isn't without beauty? Or make backup-beeping noises and claim that I said you are against them? Either way your world-view smells like shit to me. (But thanks for staying up late. I think we're the only ones here on this schedule, but I've gotta get some sleep now. Smell ya tomorrow!) I think we are misunderstanding each other.....I was understanding you to ask what was hell? What was hell like, that we needed to be saved from? to which I replied....it would be like this world, only no redeeming qualities.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outback Jack Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Okay. It's late, I'm tired, and we are obviously cross posting. I'll bow out for now and try again tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 But I also thank you. You've just justified my opinion of most religious people. Pissing away the only world we KNOW exists in order to gain admittance to the Elvin Land of Org, "Where life is beautiful all the time And I'll be happy to see Those nice, young men In their clean, white coats And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!" (edited to add a little dig at your life) You know BJ, I would rather live for Heaven than "real" things like exclusionary sub-forums that people are not given access to.....you picked a great side BJ. What the FUCK are you talking about? this web site, Ex_C....Christians are not given access to some sub-forums. Is this like Heaven only in reverse? If you are not one of us, you do not get in? Looks like hypocracy from my end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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