Guest Zenobia Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 That experiment sounds kewl... but I'm not sure i want to get swallowed up in any black holes. Sounds a little too much like my job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xequar Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I'm cool with this idea. I don't feel like going back into my notes to explain in detail how I came to my conclusions, but I consider the Universe "the base" of everything. It contains all reality. I don't consider it a god, but I do consider it the foundation on which my existence makes sense. Wow, someone else that capitalizes "Universe." I normally pass over this section of the forum, but I'm glad I stopped by. I never realized how many people believe like I do. I wonder if the term "Spiritual Atheist" is an appropriate fit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PocketAces Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 This is my first time posting a thread in this forum, so I hope this is the right place for it. When you stop and think about it, the universe itself sort of fits the traditional view of an all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful god. The Universe encompasses everything that exists in it and in that sense, you could think of the Universe as being "all-knowing." The things within the Universe may be harmed, but if matter, which makes up the Universe, cannot be created nor destroyed, then in a way the Universe is all-powerful. The Universe allows everyone to exist within it regardless of their beliefs or how they live their life, so in an allegorical sense, it is "all-loving." The way that humans try to protect nature from harm is sort of similar to worshiping god in a way. Like, the way we revere the beauty of Nature is similar to praising a god, but at the same time, we fear Her might and if we disrespect Nature by harming the environment, then we suffer the consequences of our own "divine" punishment that we cause by our actions of harming Nature. At the same time though, the Universe makes no demands of anyone and is unconcerned with how we live our lives and gives us the true freewill to live as we please. The only thing it "asks" of us if you could call it "asking" is for us not to blow ourselves up. It's ironic to me that in my opinion, the only way that an all-loving/knowing/powerful "god" could exist without contradicting itself is if it isn't a sentient supernatural Creator, but rather the natural "spark" that caused the birth of everything, whatever that "spark" may be. And to me, the Universe is the only goddess that is worth "worshiping" and revering, if it can be called that. I just feel like that pantheists are right in a way that the Universe is much like a god in itself (though I prefer to refer to it as a goddess just because). Does anyone else feel the same or am I just not making sense at this point? i see what your saying, and i think what you said in of itself is really good. so i have nothing to really debate against it. even tho i find myself loving nature, the universe more and more as i get a little older, and i'll sit and stare and marvel at the changing of the seasons because i love seeing how nature dies, and then reborns, i love seeing how the universe is self-sufficient, and keeps itself alive even when we overpopulate it and pollute it. but to me its just metaphors, and i'm sure i could use the metaphors in a similiar kind of manner. i "worshipped" the other night at 4am when i saw snow flurries starting to come. but its just metaphors that i don't let into my belief structure because i don't want my belief structures based on metaphors, mythological expressions but i want it based from what i perceive is real, beyond the myth, beyond the metaphor, and hence, i'm atheist. i would consider my relation with the universe to be that of a love affair that i love. i've watched my lover destroyed cities on the tv, almost destroy the city i live in that i witnessed in real life. i have watched her formed amazing sites with twisters, change a beautiful day on the golf course, to a beautiful storm that was both surreal and scary. she's independant, and bound and bent to always survive which makes her that more appealing. she's tempormental at times, but she gives more days to where it shows me why i'm so glad to be having this affair and also shows that her tempormental times are not bad, but beautiful in their own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbleloulicious Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 At the same time though, the Universe makes no demands of anyone and is unconcerned with how we live our lives and gives us the true freewill to live as we please. The only thing it "asks" of us if you could call it "asking" is for us not to blow ourselves up. The universe, as "god", asks nothing. It just exists until it no longer exists, I would imagine. It is we who ask that other we's do not blow up our world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted November 1, 2008 Author Share Posted November 1, 2008 I recently found this video by Bishop Spong where he explains his beliefs about god and I think he better explains what I tried to explain in my original post in this thread of the way I see god: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 I have to agree with your post, Neon. I have thought to some degree that the universe is a functioning organism and it was responsible for creating us. Seems more plausible than the narrow creationist view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodhi Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 "But pantheism in general doesn't and can't logically declare the "god who is everything" to be above that which is everything, so pantheism in general is a definition of a god which is not supernatural. And doesn't some religions believe humans are gods? Does it require that humans also are supernatural? I suspect "supernatural" might not be a definitive requirement for the definition of a "god". I easily get lost in discussions like this, so please bear with me. Is "pantheism" in this context a way to still be "spiritual" and recognize a "god" even when you realize that there is nothing beyond the natural world/universe? Is some people's desire to have a god so strong that they will call everyday reality "god?" Reading your post cracked me up! I literally chuckled to myself. Funny! I chuckled because I left the church when I was 14 and I'm now 31, but I've alway been a deeply spiritual person. I've never been atheist. It's hard to explain what I believe in, but I believe in stuff! And I thought the original post was brilliant because for thousands of years mystics basically have been saying that the Universe is God. Even the earliest religions/belief systems revolved around worshiping Mother Earth and nature, the sun the moon, which is to say worshiping the everyday world around you. All of the ancient Gods and Goddesses are based on the planets in our solar system, which are also just part of the everyday world around us. So you make a brilliant observation, but perhaps from a more atheistic point of view. For a while I even considered myself an atheist because I didn't believe in a big daddy in the sky but rather the energy of the world around me. I believed in what most people would call spiritual energy or chi or vibes or whatever, that web that interconnects all life and functions in different ways that can observed and used, but most atheists have little use for that kind of talk. My argument was that energy is part of the natural world, but they weren't buying it. So I stopped calling myself an atheist. Then spirit guides started talking to me and I definitely knew I wasn't an atheist, although I could argue that my spirit guides are part of the natural world. Look, they're right here. Anyway, you made me laugh and I appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodhi Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 I'm cool with this idea. I don't feel like going back into my notes to explain in detail how I came to my conclusions, but I consider the Universe "the base" of everything. It contains all reality. I don't consider it a god, but I do consider it the foundation on which my existence makes sense. Wow, someone else that capitalizes "Universe." I normally pass over this section of the forum, but I'm glad I stopped by. I never realized how many people believe like I do. I wonder if the term "Spiritual Atheist" is an appropriate fit? I've always capitalized the word "Universe." I've seen it written that way many times. I would never want to inadvertently offend atheists by saying this, but I've come to see atheism as a certain kind of spiritual path in and of itself. (Well, I guess if you're spiritual you would have to say we're all on a spiritual path by virtue of our existence.) I've always admired people who are good people just because they want to be good people, not because they want to be rewarded in Heaven or are afraid of Hell. Maybe some people are meant to be atheists in this life time. It's a certain stage in the process of learning, just like being spiritual. I believe that someday none of us will be atheist or spiritual. We will all just be. It's said that in the transformation related to the year 2012, the physical and spiritual worlds will join and become one, and so will all other polarities such as light and dark, male and female. There will no longer be any separation between the natural and metaphysical worlds. But there I go talking spiritual talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodhi Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Although I can say that I agree with you on one level, my preference for words with which to describe the Universe differs from yours, especially since what we normally refer to as our Universe is everything that came from the big bang that led to our existence here on Earth - in the outskirts of this great All. Scientists now often speak of a "Multiverse", that is - many big bangs that are somehow mutually independent, but one may of course also use the term "Universe" for everything that exists, in which case it would include the other masses of big bangs. Anyway, enough speculation about Uni- and Multiverses. What I really wanted to say is that as an ex-Christian, I find that the word "god" - even with a capital G - doesn't do the great All justice, mostly because the word "god" implies that there is some personal power behind it all and which would make me a deist or a theist. Instead, I see the great All as everything that is, and - at least on Earth - often the same as Nature. Nature is everything and nothing at the same time. That is to say that everything plays a part in Nature - everything on Earth has its place in the great circle of life, in its ecosystem, on this wondrous planet. And yet, Nature isn't a "thing". One can't point at something and say "look there's Nature", but we are part of Nature. If I were a naturalist, I would believe that Nature had some sort of special life force, and perhaps it does, but I don't want to use those terms because they can so easily imply that Nature is an entity with a personality, a will, consciousness and power to work towards some goal and thus easily resembles a god. If one limits, in one's own head, Nature to animate things, then we know of no Nature outside of Earth, and Nature itself would exclude weather - both meteorology and oceanography - yet we most commonly attribute events like storms and hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes and tidal waves to Nature as well - inanimate yet natural things. So perhaps it serves a purpose to limit Nature to what happens on this planet, but then again - why? The storms on Earth aren't much different from storms on Jupiter (except such variables as scale and strength). The laws of physics apply everywhere in our Universe (though its variables differ) and is how we are capable of researching things that we still aren't capable of producing the technology to actually look at. In the end, I came to the conclusion that the Great All is an ok term for everything that exists and Nature, though applicable in some senses to places without life due to physics, in my head's definition of the term needs some life form in order to truly be Nature. After I shed the worn and itchy skin of Christianity and faith, I find it so much more exciting to ponder existence, to stand in awe of Nature and the Universe that we live in, to be so grateful to be "given" this chance by evolution and Nature to exist, be conscious enough of my existence to appreciate it and that of other people. I don't think Nature deserves (in the negative term) to be compared to a god, because gods - being manmade - are always limited to the imagination of human beings, while reality is so much greater and more fantastic than anything any person could ever imagine. Frank Lloyd Wright once said: "I believe in god, only I spell it Nature". I would use Ockham's razor on that quote and say "I believe in Nature". I don't pray to Nature because I don't believe Nature has a personality or a consciousness, I don't believe that it is a god or goddess of any sort, I simply accept it for what I can see that it is: The collection amazing events that occurred and still occur on this planet, and which I hope will continue to happen until our sun explodes. So I'm not an atheist but I'm not a theist! Got it! The more I know, the more I know I don't know. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodhi Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 The problem we have in todays world is a literalist mindset, likely due to our approach to knowledge and understanding using the tools of science and empirical research. It manifests itself in a religious literalism, as well as a philosophical materialistic literalism. Arguments that mythological systems are 'false' is an improper argument. What is false is taking them literally. The same goes for purely rationalistic approach to life. That everything should be approached rationally, is itself true irrationality. There are components to life that reason can not take you to, as you well stated above. Amen, brother! I have noticed that some people go from being fundamentalists to being hardcore literalist atheists who still must live in a world of certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 NEON GENESIS: Your OP is great! On an emotional level, I am a pantheist of sorts. I am just now looking into pantheism websites. This thread is a gem. I am in awe of the universe moreso than before, probably because religion got in the way. Since I shed christianity, I've felt more of a connection to the universe and its inhabitants. I accept it's wonders and terrors, without the mind numbing feelings I used to have due to the heaven/hell, good/evil, us/them, B.S. of the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 I like the original post. I just don't want to be forced to worship the Universe. One can admire nature in all its splendor without prostrating before it, the same way one can look up at the stars in awe without being afraid of eternal torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted November 29, 2008 Author Share Posted November 29, 2008 NEON GENESIS: Your OP is great! On an emotional level, I am a pantheist of sorts. I am just now looking into pantheism websites. This thread is a gem. I am in awe of the universe moreso than before, probably because religion got in the way. Since I shed christianity, I've felt more of a connection to the universe and its inhabitants. I accept it's wonders and terrors, without the mind numbing feelings I used to have due to the heaven/hell, good/evil, us/them, B.S. of the bible. Do you mind if I ask for any links to good pantheists sites? I keep meaning to learn more about pantheism, but all I've read about it so far is from Wikipedia and I've read a tiny bit of Spinoza's Ethics which I keep meaning to read more of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 Neon, WWW.pantheism.net is THE site for info. It is the official site of the Universl Pantheist Society. Paul Harrison is an author there on scientific pantheism. http://www.pantheism.net/ Great site. Here's some others: http://www.ecospirit.info/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/5310/ http://www.spaceandmotion.com/pantheism.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PocketAces Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I recently found this video by Bishop Spong where he explains his beliefs about god and I think he better explains what I tried to explain in my original post in this thread of the way I see god: i really respect that man. i may not agree with him on things, and my outcome is different obviously than his, but chapter 2 of his book, "A New Christianity for A New World" was a a huge hitter for me, because, he pinned everything exactly like what i was feeling at the time. i still have a lot of respect for him even tho i'm atheist now. sorry for a sidenote that is off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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