Messiah Requirements and also.....

[Guest SerenityNow]

This is a spin off from the "Definition of Sin" thread........

 

Quote Amanda: Being in the bloodline may go beyond what is expected by human expectations. What I think is important about the bloodline, is that it comes from Issac, via David, to the resulting inheritance of something unusual. Hence, the promised seed. Sarah could not have a child but by a miracle, that's why she laughed at the idea of her finally having a baby! Something special about that egg... and Abraham is the father. The apocrapha, as I remember reading it, claims almost the same thing about Mary's parents... her mother was too old to have a child. Something special there too, especially coming from the lineage of Issac via David.

 

Just a thought...

 

2 Samuel 7:12-13 12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

 

  13He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

 

The Messiah will be in the bloodline, one cannot get around this issue. Seed is sperm, no "if's, and's or but's", seed means seed. As far as Mary's "virgin birth", that was not a Messianic prophecy. The prophecy that the storyteller in Matthew uses was for King Ahaz. That's another reason that the Jews refuse to accept the Jesus story.

 

Here is another reason, this was supposed to happen IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Messiah came and please notice again that it is AFTER the Messiah comes that the New Covenant is made and that there is ZERO lapse prophesied.......

 

Ezekiel 37: 21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.  23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.  24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.  25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.  26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.  27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.  28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

 

More proof of the David issue and not only that but the Lord's Tabernacle is supposed to be earthly, not heavenly. This is speaking of an earthly reign. Read Ezekiel 42 for the extraordinary detailed PERMANENT temple plans. Also, notice that sacrifices will be going on also. One need only read the OT prophets to see that the reign of the Messiah was to be an earthly one, not heavenly. Interpret the NT spiritually if one wants to, but it still does not go hand in hand with the Old Testament.

[Amanda]

As far as Mary's "virgin birth", that was not a Messianic prophecy.  The prophecy that the storyteller in Matthew uses was for King Ahaz.  That's another reason that the Jews refuse to accept the Jesus story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Isaiah:7:14

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel *.

 

Matthew1:17

So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

1:18

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before * * they came together, she was found with child * * of the Holy Ghost.

1:19

Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

1:20

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

1:21

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

1:22

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

1:23

Behold, a virgin shall be with child * *, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

It seems to me that the rest of what you have copied is that which is still manifesting itself... and my youngest son says that this is a big book... give us a break... hehe... I love him!

[dogmatically_challenged]

Isaiah:7:14

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel *.

 

Got E-Sword? Got jewish tutors? Get ya some. While your at it read the whole chapter for context.

Virgin or young woman? You decide. Check out the jewish board I gave you. They would destroy every twisting or mistranslation of scripture done by xers or just plain honest mistakes by xer scribes.

 

Attempt to see the bible from the jews perspective from Judaic Jews. It is thier religion that xers ripped off ya know. Everyone is a part of god. Right?

[scotter]

I found it puzzling that Amanda, an open-minded and liberal Christian (although evangelical Christians would not recognize her as one), holds onto Christian’s justification that Jesus was prophesied in OT. She should have been aware of Judaism’s rebuttal about ‘OT prophesies’ that Jesus as the Messiah. And we read that d_c has shown her Judaism rebuttal information. Not that Amanda ‘must’ accept the Judaism rebuttal but it is the perceived inconsistency of Amanda’s exhibition puzzled me.

 

Before I get to next, I quote this from Amanda’s post from ‘To SavedByFaith’ thread:

Jesus died in obscurity... it is only through Paul, after the death of Jesus... did there become a significant recognition to his teachings.

 

Again I see inconsistency here……if Jesus was so significant a figure, the Messiah prophesied in OT, and why did Jesus die in obscurity (according to Amanda)? Why did Amanda write/believe that Jesus died in obscurity?

 

This leads to another problem in Amanda’s theology – nowhere Paul was foretold by Jesus, “After my Ascension, I shall appoint Saul, a Pharisee, my Apostle, I shall name him Paul”, nor was Paul prophesied in the OT (I recall it’s Thankful who raised this issue, correct me members)

 

Amanda believes Jesus as prophesied in the OT, and Amanda believes Paul because Amanda has faith in Paul's revelation experience, it comes down to it is a matter of personal belief.

 

In short, we see this line of flow in Amanda’s thought, which I am short of words of acumen to relate, just that there is something not right:

Jesus was prophesied in OT as Messiah (Amanda) – Jesus died in obscurity (Amanda) – through Paul there became a significant recognition to his teachings (Amanda) – nowhere Paul was prophesied (added)

[Vixentrox]

There's a good reason why Amanda says Jesus died in obscurity. He was just another rabble rouser that was nailed to a cross and quickly forgotten........if he ever existed at all.

[Savedbyfaith]

There's a good reason why Amanda says Jesus died in obscurity. He was just another rabble rouser that was nailed to a cross and quickly forgotten........if he ever existed at all.

 

[sBF] Ya all listen up to Amanda. She knows what she's talking about. Jesus didn't make the headline news when he was crucified. He was seen no different than the two crucified with him, dead and forgotten, but not by all. Only a few, including a centurion, understood what was happening on the cross, the fulfillment of Gen. 3:15 (the protoevangelium), Gen. 22:8, Deut. 32:43, Psalm 16:10, 22:14-18, Isa. 53, Daniel 9:26 and Zech. 12:10.

[Savedbyfaith]

Here is the Jewish explanation of Isaiah 53- EXCELLENT!!

 

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq136.html

 

Scotter,

 

I know that I've posted somewhere within the pages of ExC, my issues with Paul. However, not so sure that I've posted what you may have wrote there. Sorry, I can't remember.

 

[sBF] WE meet again :-) Want to share some of those issues?

[Vixentrox]

There's a good reason why Amanda says Jesus died in obscurity. He was just another rabble rouser that was nailed to a cross and quickly forgotten........if he ever existed at all.

 

[sBF] Ya all listen up to Amanda. She knows what she's talking about. Jesus didn't make the headline news when he was crucified. He was seen no different than the two crucified with him, dead and forgotten, but not by all. Only a few, including a centurion, understood what was happening on the cross, the fulfillment of Gen. 3:15 (the protoevangelium), Gen. 22:8, Deut. 32:43, Psalm 16:10, 22:14-18, Isa. 53, Daniel 9:26 and Zech. 12:10.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So, your claiming this centurian was completly versed in Hebrew lore and religion to understand these so called prophicies?

[crazy-tiger]

So, your claiming this centurian was completly versed in Hebrew lore and religion to understand these so called prophicies?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The centurian must have been... otherwise he wouldn't have understood that what was happening was the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15.

 

 

Of course, that's an extremely odd thing for a centurian to be completely versed in... (translation... not a chance.)

[Checkmate]

Isaiah:7:14

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel *.

 

Matthew1:17

1:21

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 

1:22

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 

1:23

Behold, a virgin shall be with child * *, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 

 

 

Obvious question/discrepancy here vis-a-vis PROPHECY.

 

If Matthew points to Isaiah as fulfilled prophecy, then WHY isn't "Jesus" named Immanuel? How the hell is THIS fulfillment?

 

Immanuel/Emmanuel = God with us.

Jesus = The Lord saves.

 

How in the Wide, Wide World of Sports can these two words be the SAME?

[crazy-tiger]

Obvious question/discrepancy here vis-a-vis PROPHECY.

 

If Matthew points to Isaiah as fulfilled prophecy, then WHY isn't "Jesus" named Immanuel?  How the hell is THIS fulfillment?

 

Immanuel/Emmanuel = God with us.

Jesus = The Lord saves.

 

How in the Wide, Wide World of Sports can these two words be the SAME?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<fundie>

Well, you have to understand that since Jesus was with us and Jesus was God in human form, then Jesus = God with us.

</fundie>

 

 

No.... that doesn't make sense, does it?

[crazy-tiger]

Isaiah 7 13 Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you [c] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [d] will call him Immanuel. [e] 15 He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. 16 But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria."

 

Even that portion of "prophecy" weeds out Jesus.  Those lands were both "destroyed" hundreds of years before Jesus.  Funny TK, even though Isaiah 8 is the "fulfillment" of the child, even that child isn't named right.  LOL  However, it is obvious that it is from the same child as 7, WHEN taken in context....I think?  Regardless though, Isaiah 7 taken as a whole is enough to rule it OUT, as a Messianic prophecy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now Thankful... You should know that it's only us Evil Non-believers that take Bible verses out of context.

 

You've read too much into such a perfect prophecy.

 

 

 

 

I need to go wash my brain after that...

[crazy-tiger]

Please, forgive me, as I am a heathen and know not what I do!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't forgive you... It's God's Will© that you are a heathen and that you know not what you do.

 

How can anyone forgive you for doing that which God created you to do?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!! I've been contaminated by the CMD virus. (Christian Mind Deconstruction)

 

Someone find me a cure before I turn into Invictus...

[Ouroboros]

There's a good reason why Amanda says Jesus died in obscurity. He was just another rabble rouser that was nailed to a cross and quickly forgotten........if he ever existed at all.

 

[sBF] Ya all listen up to Amanda. She knows what she's talking about. Jesus didn't make the headline news when he was crucified. He was seen no different than the two crucified with him, dead and forgotten, but not by all. Only a few, including a centurion, understood what was happening on the cross, the fulfillment of Gen. 3:15 (the protoevangelium), Gen. 22:8, Deut. 32:43, Psalm 16:10, 22:14-18, Isa. 53, Daniel 9:26 and Zech. 12:10.

 

So why does the Bible portray the death and resurrection with thunder, and earthquakes, bunches of dead people walking on the streets, etc? It sounds to me that the fishermen if the Bible, continued their practice of fishermen stories and made everything sound larger and bigger than it really was.

[Ouroboros]

I can't forgive you... It's God's Will© that you are a heathen and that you know not what you do.

 

How can anyone forgive you for doing that which God created you to do?

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!  I've been contaminated by the CMD virus. (Christian Mind Deconstruction)

 

Someone find me a cure before I turn into Invictus...

 

HanSolo wavies his wand at C-T and says "Expelliamus Daemon Invicticus", and poff the Invictus demon has been cast out... in a traditional green smoke of course!

[Amanda]

\

Amanda,

 

You can't just yank one verse from an entire prophecy and run with it.  Please read both Isaiah Chapters 7 and 8.  It can't be a duel prophecy because Jesus did not fit it's requirements in full.  A prophecy is ONLY successful if full.  You do need a concordance for the word Virgin also.  According to the OT war stories the Isaiah prophecy was fulfilled hundreds of years before Jesus.  Keep those in mind also, as to why Jews do not accept Jesus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thankful, I did go back and research the concordance and lexicons of the word 'virgin' in this specific text and it does seem to mean our present interpretation of this word. I'm curious as to what you suggest it means? I'm open to other lexicon interpretations, as I understand that subjective views could effect the accuracy of its transcribing process.

 

Thankful, I will admit that this historical area is not one that I have had a lot of focus. I'm sure you have more insight than I do in this matter. The Bible is very difficult reading for me, especially without a prior familiarization on this specific subject. I am trying to understand what you are saying, not that you are not clear... but that I am obviously not informed enough about this to be on the same page as you... and it appears to me that you think I am. Please bear with me as I honor your question presented to me...

 

I think that the part in question is this:

Isaiah 7

7:16

For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

7:17

The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.

 

Are you saying this all happened hundreds of years before Jesus, and was suppose to have happened in the same lifetime?

 

It seems to me that chapter 8 is about a different subject all together, another child of that time being born. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you... I just don't know... and by the time it took to research it all effectively, this thread will long be over! I definitely will consider your perspective.

[Mythra]

Sorry, Amanda. Gotta call bs on ya.

 

Isaiah 7:14 uses the hebrew word "almah". this can mean: virgin, young woman, of marriageable age, maiden or newly married. The word occurs six other times in the bible, and five of those, it is translated as "maiden".

 

The hebrew word for virgin is "bethulah". If the writer of Isaiah had wanted to say virgin, he would have used the word bethulah.

 

But, it's really kind of irrelevant, cause virgins don't have babies. Even third graders know that.

[Savedbyfaith]

So why does the Bible portray the death and resurrection with thunder, and earthquakes, bunches of dead people walking on the streets, etc?

 

[sBF] Right, many came out of their tombs to live again. Most of the people had no idea what was happening through the events of the cross, resurrection and subsequent miracles. Nor did they associate the weather conditions and earthquake with the death and resurrection of Christ, whatever that association may have been. Christ was viewed by most as an itinerant preacher and relvolutionary who tried to overturn Jewish tradition. To the disciples, he was King, Savior and Lord.

[Savedbyfaith]

Sorry, Amanda. Gotta call bs on ya.

 

Isaiah 7:14 uses the hebrew word "almah". this can mean: virgin, young woman, of marriageable age, maiden or newly married. The word occurs six other times in the bible, and five of those, it is translated as "maiden".

 

The hebrew word for virgin is "bethulah". If the writer of Isaiah had wanted to say virgin, he would have used the word bethulah.

 

But, it's really kind of irrelevant, cause virgins don't have babies. Even third graders know that.

 

[sBF] I agree with Amanda. The sign of the virgin was not for Ahaz because he didn't want a sign. So Isaiah turned to the House of Judah and said the Lord would give them a sign which would be a virgin with child. What would be so unique about a "maiden" bearing a child as a sign to the House of Judah? Big deal. Maidens or young women had babies all the time. The people wouldn't know which child represented the sign. But for a "virgin" to "be with child" is most unique, even miraculous. And that's what it was as the Holy Spirit conceived the child (Luke 1:35). That was a sign to the Jews that God would come to them in the person of "Immanuel," God with us. is Jesus.

[Vixentrox]

So why does the Bible portray the death and resurrection with thunder, and earthquakes, bunches of dead people walking on the streets, etc?

 

[sBF] Right, many came out of their tombs to live again. Most of the people had no idea what was happening through the events of the cross, resurrection and subsequent miracles. Nor did they associate the weather conditions and earthquake with the death and resurrection of Christ, whatever that association may have been. Christ was viewed by most as an itinerant preacher and relvolutionary who tried to overturn Jewish tradition. To the disciples, he was King, Savior and Lord.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Don't you think all that would have been noticed by someone else? Like...news worthy enough to be in every writing of the time?

[crazy-tiger]

*puts hand on CT's forhead* 

 

"Slappa slappa crappa crappa ho hi lo hi rondala shondala fe fi fo fum yadda yadda yadda domo arigato mister roboto mata ah-oo hima de enie meenie minie mo mecha lecha hi mecha hiney ho boo ya!"  

 

Are you free yet, or do I need to speak in tongues some more?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Crap... looks like you've got it too.

 

 

Don't come near me... I'm contagious!

[Savedbyfaith]

I can't forgive you... It's God's Will© that you are a heathen and that you know not what you do.

 

How can anyone forgive you for doing that which God created you to do?

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!! I've been contaminated by the CMD virus. (Christian Mind Deconstruction)

 

Someone find me a cure before I turn into Invictus...

 

[sBF] I've got it :-) There is a special vaccine called cardio plasmatic injection. When injected, the victim is immediately cured.

[crazy-tiger]

HanSolo wavies his wand at C-T and says "Expelliamus Daemon Invicticus", and poff the Invictus demon has been cast out... in a traditional green smoke of course!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Virus... still... there...

 

 

Losing... capacity... to... think...

 

 

Feeling... urge... to... agree... with... fundies...

 

 

 

 

 

Noooo.... I've lost the ability to use the quote function.

Help me...

 

[braindead CT] Ha... God has called me to his side. Now I will sit there and dribble in ecstatic PVS for eternity.

[crazy-tiger]

SBF? Can you please use the quote function properly?

 

You're getting the code right at the start, but you need to end the quote with the end code as well...

 

Try putting at the end of what you're quoting. It'll make it a lot easier to read your posts.

[crazy-tiger]

I can't forgive you... It's God's Will© that you are a heathen and that you know not what you do.

 

How can anyone forgive you for doing that which God created you to do?

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!  I've been contaminated by the CMD virus. (Christian Mind Deconstruction)

 

Someone find me a cure before I turn into Invictus...

 

[sBF] I've got it :-) There is a special vaccine called cardio plasmatic injection. When injected, the victim is immediately cured.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean it cures the CMD virus? You could make a fortune selling that you know...