Miracle Of Healed Vision Or A Hoax?

[Guest]

Another thought, TA. I know you say you trust your friend and he wouldn't lie, but how many times have we heard about a child molesting priest or money swindling pastor that, once discovered, still has loyal followers that will not believe their leader did anything improper? The church is full of examples, I need not mention any here.

 

How do you know that your friend is not lying for jesus? It happens all the time.

 

What's that saying? Believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see? Something like that...

[Neon Genesis]

I asked for help from Exchristian audience to come up with theories that would explain the story I heard from my friend as natural phenomenon. Yes, I don't need an evidence from that person that he didn't lie to me. I am sure if your good friend told you something you would trust him/her knowing they never lied before. I guess what I wanted is for people to assume the story is true and still find a way to explain it as a natural phenomenon.

Unfortunately the theories I heard here don't accomplish the task. I will sum up and give my objections to them.

No, I would ask for evidence from them the same as I would anyone else. Furthermore, if you're saying your friend has never ever told a lie, then the bible says you're a liar because no one is righteous and all have fallen short of the glory of god, and he who says he is without sin is a liar. So even the bible calls into question how reliable your friend's testimony is. This is not to say that he lied intentionally, it is likely that he is simply mistaken and wants to believe just as you do, but why should we presume that your friend is perfect and never makes mistakes as being a reliable source in any way? Especially when his claims haven't even been peer reviewed by professional scientists which anyone making a scientific claim would do. If this was a miracle, why doesn't he go to the doctor or a scientist to prove that it is? Surely if this was a real miracle, your friend would want to prove it in order to spread the gospels to all the nations like the bible commands?

[Jeff H]

Vigile, I really can't bear a thought that I may never find the Truth, and that I will have to settle for something that will be "intelectually satisfyig" and that I will "be willing to accept". Boy, the struggle I feel is sometimes so bad that I want to die. This sounds really irrational, but I wish I had two lives: I would dispose of the first one immediately so I can find out the TRUTH and live the second one in peace.

 

I feel ya dude. Sometimes the only reason that has kept me around here on this earth is the sheer stubbornness to give up so easily. The problem with the Truth is that it's not just some physical object you can find or some magical piece of knowledge that once you find it, you go "aha!" The truth is obscured by our inability to know anything definitely, past areas of mathematics and deduction. Most of the knowledge we have is based on induction, and as such it has a degree of uncertainty around it. But at the same time, induction works on "building a case," as it were. We know gravity is true not because we can deductively prove it, but because we can drop a book a million times and it will always fall to the floor. Each of these tests is one more "point" in favour of gravity.

 

I will tell you now that you will never find truth if you are looking for absolute certainty. We can only ever come closer to truth, through the process of "building a case" in favour of or against different arguments. That is the only way to know, and though it is not certainty, it is reasonableness.

 

Meanwhile I intend to keep "digging deep" into everything that seems to support BOTH sides. And I will try to remain objective while looking at the info. On the christian side, I am willing to meet with serious christians, who can think logically, are practicing what they believe, and have facts to support their faith. I also try to read as much about creationism and the weak sides of evolution as I circumstances allow.

On the other side I am researching biblical contradictions (have learned a lot about them, actually some good ones from here), I like reading testimonies of deconverted christians, and read about evidence for evolution. I wish I had more background in biology to really understand evolution on a deep level. Can someone suggest a sound book or site that makes the most convincing arguments for evolution? I had just a college course in biology and have not read any books just on this topic.

 

That is an excellent way to discover where the weight of the evidence lies. As far as good sites to understand evolution, here are a couple that I have found:

 

http://evolution.berkeley.edu - this one is more on a basic level, but it does deal with some very good arguments in favour of evolution.

 

http://www.talkorigins.org - this one here has basic as well as in-depth arguments, and it really is one of the most highly respected sources for evolutionary material.

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html - and this one, I would just like to point out specifically, since it is a comprehensive listing of pretty much any creationist argument you could ever think of, and why it's wrong or doesn't hold weight. It's not arguments "for" evolution, per se, but there is still a wealth of knowledge on this site alone.

 

Speaking of my seeking the truth objectively, can someone tell me the reason why Christians (some at least) oppose so much the open quest for knowledge? Like, even though my family knows about my doubts, they frown upon me reading articles about evolution or atheism. They say my faith will suffer and this will prevent me from getting to know God. But if God is real, then no amount of contradicting information should make him unreal, right? On the contrary, by seeing how weak the other side is, my faith should grow! Their fear of me learning opposing point of view prompts me to suspect that faith in God may really be nothing more than a self-imposed belief.

 

You are exactly right. That is the exact thing that led me away from Christianity myself - the thought that if the truth is truly true (heh), then no amount of evidence will stand up against it. The evidence must always point to the truth, or else it is not real evidence. Since, well, the truth is true. If you examine the issues with this mindset, I applaud your efforts, no matter what decision you eventually reach.

 

One thing is for sure: it sucks to be an agnostic. I hope it will be worth it someday.

 

Though I'm fairly new at the whole agnostic/atheist thing (I haven't even figured out what I want to call myself yet), I definitely agree with you there. It sucks to not know. Try to avoid it.

[Neon Genesis]

I will tell you now that you will never find truth if you are looking for absolute certainty. We can only ever come closer to truth, through the process of "building a case" in favour of or against different arguments. That is the only way to know, and though it is not certainty, it is reasonableness.

It's like the saying goes that the only certain thing in life is uncertainty.

[florduh]

Look, if you want to believe in miracles then nothing will sway you. If you challenge us to provide explanations and reasons it isn't a miracle, only to shoot them down, you are wasting your time. None of us can absolutely prove the negative position, that is, no miracle has ever or will ever happen and they are impossible. Neither can we prove beyond all doubt and with all certainty that fairies don't exist. You have to go with critical thinking, preponderance of available evidence, and common sense.

[Vigile]

I may never find the Truth™, and that I will have to settle for something that will be "intelectually satisfyig"

 

I can understand this. But the "truth" is, that life is just too complex to break down into easily divisible barriers of truth and lies. For instance, what is "true" up or "true" down? What is "true" hot? The answers are relative.

 

You will, however, be able to reject certain claims as absolutely untrue. You may never be able to say I absolutely know there are no gods, whatever god may be. But I have little doubt if you study you will come to the conclusion that allows you to say I am absolutely sure that the gods (yes there are more than one despite christian claims to the contrary) of the bible are purely fiction.

 

It does little good for me or anyone else to tell you this though. You need to unravel it for yourself and come to your own conclussions.

 

In my post I wrote that you still seem to be struggling with the xian meme. You might check out the definition of a meme here and see what you think: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

 

They say my faith will suffer and this will prevent me from getting to know God. But if God is real, then no amount of contradicting information should make him unreal, right?

 

Ha ha. You sound so much like me years ago. Then I determined to know the truth, whatever the truth might be. I determined to become a student of life and to test and question everything I believed. I reasoned that if I put it through the fire, if it were real, solid, and true it would survive. That which did burn off wasn't worth believing in the first place, so no loss. I truly believed at the time I was doing this that the foundations of xianity were true and that I was just going to be shedding the fluff. When it all began to fall away I was surprised and distressed, but it was what it was. I had been as intellectually honest as I knew how and as a result I could no longer believe.

[Vigile]

Look, if you want to believe in miracles then nothing will sway you. If you challenge us to provide explanations and reasons it isn't a miracle, only to shoot them down, you are wasting your time. None of us can absolutely prove the negative position, that is, no miracle has ever or will ever happen and they are impossible. Neither can we prove beyond all doubt and with all certainty that fairies don't exist. You have to go with critical thinking, preponderance of available evidence, and common sense.

 

Give the guy a break Florduh. He's not some sheep in wolve's clothing trying to evangelize us. He may not be where you are at, but he's genuinely trying to figure things out as best I can tell.

[.god]

I wish I had more background in biology to really understand evolution on a deep level. Can someone suggest a sound book or site that makes the most convincing arguments for evolution? I had just a college course in biology and have not read any books just on this topic.

 

The websites you were given are excellent resources.

 

If you want to read a book regarding evolution and natural selection, I highly recommend "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. It's by no means a textbook, but is his treatment from 1976 on evolution from a gene-centric perspective that was written for the common lay person. Although I'd say you might have to be a bit technical or at least have a familiarity and interest in computers or programming to really get the first chapter of the book. It still offers an excellent overview and primer though. Go ahead and check out the criticisms of the book first (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene) so you can read the book with an idea of where it might be weak in mind.

 

As a follow up you may want to read the "The Blind Watchmaker" also by Dawkins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_watchmaker). This book is more of an argument for evolution and natural selection and shows how complexity in life arises from this process. Although it deals with religious arguments a bit more, it is still an excellent and informative book on evolution. And if you like reading, Dawkins is an excellent writer. If you have a computer science, programming background, or even a more technical mindset, you will quickly grasp the his excellent computer models and appreciate his simulation examples. Unfortunately the flip side is that I think some readers may be confused or just turned off by his in-depth use of simulations as examples. But hey, complex computer models is how scientists model the world from sociology to biology, so it's pretty much part and parcel w/ understanding the intricacies evolution.

 

If you are also interested in the evolution of the universe and the "Big Bang" theory, the very recent book "Origins: 14 billion years of cosmic evolution" by Tyson & Goldsmith is quite good. It was published in 2004 so it contains much of the latest research data, the most recent in the book being the refined measurements of cosmic radiation that shows our universe is ever expanding as the galaxies hurl further and further away from each other. A fascinating yet depressing thought. Depressing because that means we will most likely never travel to another galaxy to find other forms of life, because they're just too damn far away and receding infinitely fast. Eventually all the billions of galaxies will be so far apart that they will disappear beyond the view of each other (I forget exactly how that works, but it has to do w/ the distance and time for the light to reach us).. and each galaxy will stand alone, for all intents and purposes in a large empty void. But hey, on the bright side, our little corner of the solar system may not last that long!

Anyway, the book was also written for the lay person in mind so while it's fairly easy to read and understand. If you have any background in physics and would like to delve deeper into the data though, it's frustrating that they don't present any of the equations they are talking about. The authors basically talk about physics & chem with no math, which can be annoying when you are interested in a deeper understanding of some concepts in the book - that's my only complaint. But if you're interested in what the latest data and research shows about the origins of our universe and your background is not very technical, I highly recommend it!

 

I never had to take bio in college, nor chemistry actually. It was all hard core physics for my degree. So I feel pretty weak in chem, particularly ochem since the last I had any contact with it was high school. My biology was high school bio, which really doesn't deal w/ evolution at all, and I realized my knowledge of biology was severely lacking. Thus the entire reason I started reading the Selfish Gene. I wasn't even aware of the whole creationism garbage since I luckily grew up with out it, so that's why I suppose I get annoyed at its seemingly unnecessary inclusion in some of Dawkin's books. For future reading I'd like to better understand DNA/RNA, cell/micro bio, viruses, etc. Although I find psychobiology fascinating, I've only had a few classes in it, but it's an great area to look into if you are interested in the brain, perception, neurotransmitters, and generally how fragile our gray matter is.

[florduh]

Look, if you want to believe in miracles then nothing will sway you. If you challenge us to provide explanations and reasons it isn't a miracle, only to shoot them down, you are wasting your time. None of us can absolutely prove the negative position, that is, no miracle has ever or will ever happen and they are impossible. Neither can we prove beyond all doubt and with all certainty that fairies don't exist. You have to go with critical thinking, preponderance of available evidence, and common sense.

 

Give the guy a break Florduh. He's not some sheep in wolve's clothing trying to evangelize us. He may not be where you are at, but he's genuinely trying to figure things out as best I can tell.

 

Just offering some facts and advice. It is true that if you want to believe something badly enough, you will believe regardless of all evidence to the contrary. Until that hurdle is overcome, you are spinning your wheels looking for airtight certainty to refute that which you wish to believe is true. There is no absolute certainty to be had on any such subject.

 

He has asked for critical thinking to be applied to this "miracle" but dismissed it all. The most likely explanations have been discarded for the least likely scenario. If you seek the truth, you must be unbiased (as much as humanly possible).

[trueagnostic]

If you want to read a book regarding evolution and natural selection, I highly recommend "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. It's by no means a textbook, but is his treatment from 1976 on evolution from a gene-centric perspective that was written for the common lay person. Although I'd say you might have to be a bit technical or at least have a familiarity and interest in computers or programming to really get the first chapter of the book.

Wow! Thanks everyone for your overwhelming response. I will try to answer as many questions as I can, but I will probably ask you "to slow down a little" as this place is taking quite a bit of time and I have to work as well. I would feel bad to leave questions unaddressed.

Thank you .god, I think that will be an interesting read, I have a BS in computer science (from UW) and will start working on MS in the same field this fall. Like you, I have a solid background in physics and math. I had only one college course in chemistry and one in biology. I also took two courses of psychology. I heard about Dawkins before and I will put "Selfish Gene" on the top of "must-read" book list .

Have to run, but I will get back here when I can.

[Neon Genesis]

If you have a computer science, programming background, or even a more technical mindset, you will quickly grasp the his excellent computer models and appreciate his simulation examples. Unfortunately the flip side is that I think some readers may be confused or just turned off by his in-depth use of simulations as examples. But hey, complex computer models is how scientists model the world from sociology to biology, so it's pretty much part and parcel w/ understanding the intricacies evolution.

I haven't read Dawkins' other books, but I did read The God Delusion, and he went over an explanation of evolution and natural selection in that book, too. It was sort of like an introduction to the basics of evolution. I don't always agree with everything Dawkins wrote about religion and faith and I'm still not an expert on understanding evolution, but even though I'm not an expert on computer models either, I understood most of Dawkins' explanations of evolution in The God Delusion. That was one of the things I liked about that book that it did a perfect job of explaining evolution to the lay person so almost anybody with an education of some sort could understand the basics. And while I don't understand everything, I understand enough to refute some of the common misconceptions about evolution that xtians make, so I agree that Dawkins is an excellent source for learning about evolution and it really helped me as I was raised as a YEC.

[.god]

I have a BS in computer science (from UW) and will start working on MS in the same field this fall. Like you, I have a solid background in physics and math. I had only one college course in chemistry and one in biology. I also took two courses of psychology. I heard about Dawkins before and I will put "Selfish Gene" on the top of "must-read" book list .

 

Cool, my BS was in CS as well although I went mfa for grad =)

Yeah, it seems like hard-core chem was only reserved for EE and MS/CivE so I count myself lucky. But if you're interested in AI then you should find Dawkin's example agents in his behavioral sims informative. The only caveat for Selfish Gene is I think at first I thought, wow, my mind/body is completely controlled by my genes and what they "desire" and it seems a bit off-putting. But then you'll realize that it's only a euphemism or analogy to make his ideas a bit more understandable to his reader, but it also makes it sound like he is anthropomorphizing the gene.

 

Now that I think about it, Selfish Gene and Blind Watchmaker don't have to be read sequentially but it probably helps.

[chefranden]

I didn't read every word of this thread, but here is a thought if no one has mentioned it.

 

The human body has the property of self healing. If you cut your finger and pray for a week or so your finger will probably heal. Tada, God did it because you prayed.

 

 

If you go do a doctor for some condition and he gives you a treatment that has proven effective for others with the same condition and you get better, neither you or the doctor knows if it was the treatment or your own body that was the agent of healing.

 

My wife suffered with the OP's protagonist's condition, though not so bad. She read that if one took off their glasses and made their eyes do the work of trying to focus that they would get stronger maybe to the point where glasses would no longer be needed. She tried it and it worked, verified by her eye doctor. A miracle of exercise. The above protagonist did get rid of his glasses and it was a time before he could actually focus on small print. So, I suspect that something similar may have happened.

[R. S. Martin]

Got it, Mr. Solo, but this doesn't seem like a debate. It looks like a Christian in disguise.

 

Just now I got a brainwave. IS truegnostic perhaps the guy himself who claims to have gotten healed?

 

I feel like I'm going out on a limb when saying so but when a person starts being inconsistent in important issues my imagination knows no bounds.

[Guest]

Speaking of my seeking the truth objectively, can someone tell me the reason why Christians (some at least) oppose so much the open quest for knowledge?

 

It may sound overly simple, but it is because it is. The reason is that xtianity thrives on ignorance. Take evolution, for example. If you do not study it, it becomes very easy to dismiss it as lies from the devil. If, however, you study evolution and realize how strong the evidence for it is, you will soon realize that there could not have possible been a real Adam and Eve.

 

If there never was a real Adam and Eve, then there was no "original sin". If there was never any fall from grace, then there is no need for a savior from it, and thus no need for jesus. If there is no need for jesus, then the whole religion kinda falls to pieces, huh?

 

Or take church history for another example. Few xtains are aware that jesus' divinity was voted on during the council of Nicea in 325 C.E.

 

The open quest for knowledge brings you to the understanding of the real roots of xmas, easter, and the many other sons of (pagan) gods who were made human, killed by the state and resurected by the father god to save humanity as well. They want you to believe without question what they say is true. If you look outside of their construct, you will discover the little man behind the curtain.

[Jeff H]

It may sound overly simple, but it is because it is. The reason is that xtianity thrives on ignorance.

 

I don't know that I would say that's exactly correct. I don't think that Christians thrive on ignorance. Quite the contrary. They thrive on what they believe to be true knowledge. They just believe that they have a higher knowledge than can be obtained from earth, and so they reject knowledge that disagrees with it. You are right, for sure, that most Christians are woefully ignorant, even on issues that affect their very religion. But at the same time, they believe they know all they need to know, and everything else is just up to God. "I'll find that out in heaven" is a common phrase. So I don't think it's right to say that they thrive on ignorance. It's just that their arrogance makes them opposed to finding out real knowledge - so they end up being ignorant though they don't know it...

[Neon Genesis]

You bring up a good point that I never thought of before, Jeff H. It's moreso that fundies are arrogant than ignorant although arrogance can lead to ignorance. It's more like xtian fundies are like the high school kid who thinks they know everything and think they don't need to study for a test as long as they cram for it the night before. They might think they're too good and too smart for the knowledge school teaches them, but in reality their arrogance blinds them to the necessity of "earthly" knowledge. In the process, they end up missing the point of school, that it's not about getting a passing grade that counts but learning valuable lessons that teach them about the world.

[Vigile]

they believe they know all they need to know

 

You have just described the epitome of ignorance. I believe it was Cusa who said "the most we can achieve is learned ignorance." Anyone who knows all they ever need to know is by definition ignorant.

[Jeff H]

You have just described the epitome of ignorance. I believe it was Cusa who said "the most we can achieve is learned ignorance." Anyone who knows all they ever need to know is by definition ignorant.

 

You're exactly right. I always loved Socrates as a "role model" of sorts, who stated various times and in various ways that the only thing that he knew was how little he knew. Wisdom comes from knowing that we know very little.

 

But I was trying to say that while fundies may be ignorant, they don't strive for ignorance. It's not their intention to be ignorant, it's just their end state. And of course, that comes from a very recently former fundy, so it's certainly saying something

[trueagnostic]

Sorry for not getting back earlier. I've been busy lately with work and life. I plan to post a comprehensive response that will hopefully explain my position better maybe tomorrow.

Cheers, TA

[trueagnostic]

So I set by myself and wrote my position on God and atheism. And I decided that I don't know much to sound convincing. Therefore rather than give empty arguments I will go and do more research -- will read Dawkins on evolution among other things.

But I want to leave a few random thoughts on how I feel now.

I have tried to honestly seek God. Because I don't know if He exists (also the reason why I respectfully write God not god), I was very serious when I asked Him to reveal himself to me. Unfortunately no matter how sincere I tried to be, how much I tried to humble myself and invite Jesus into my heart, either He did not come or I did not recognize him. I heard these testimonies many times, I am sure you are familiar with them too: "I asked Jesus to enter my heart, and an overwhelming peace filled me inside. Since that time I never doubt I am His child". Well nothing like that peace ever filled my heart (for more than maybe 1 minute, which i think was a delusion) so I am pretty sure that I am not his child. That however did not yet disprove God to me. I have to yet understand how the same experience happens to millions of other people.

I already asked a few christians how they know what they believe is true, their responses were incredibly consistant and equally useless.

--How do you know your God is real?

--This is something impossible to express, but I never doubt that Jesus lives in my heart. I feel him with my soul.

--How do you know you did not convince yourself He lives in your heart? Maybe this is all in your mind.

--Man, I know this doesn't sound convincing, but I can tell I did not make myself believe. This is on totally different level, I can tell when I just convinced myself of something and when it is God.

You can never shake my faith in Him.

Such conviction, so consistant with every serious christian I have met, really makes me wonder if I am blind to something they see and I don't.

 

So I failed to experience God first hand. I make a conclusion: He is either ignoring me because I am doing something wrong, or He does not exist.

These two possibilities are like two branches on a graph. In computer science terms I can do DFS or BFS to explore this graph. Depth First Search (DFS) is used on one branch at a time and Breadth First Search (BFS) can be used on both simultaneously. What I am doing now in seeking truth is applying BFS --exploring both beliefs at the same time.

People here are well familiar with the evidences for atheism, I will not mention them not to bore anyone.

How about Christianity, does it have something to offer to an objectively minded person?

From weak to stronger evidences that I consider are:

--If you believe Jesus existed and everything about his life was true (except maybe miracles) then it is hard to explain how the prophesies concerning him got fulfilled.

 

--If gospels are a fairy tale than they are a very unusual kind of fairy tale. Normal tales (and some legends) start with "once upon a time" and are pretty vague when it comes to timing, location, and places. When you read gospels they sound like those were real stories with places, events, time, and people backed by archeology.

 

--There was persecution on christians in the first century where people died for this faith in Jesus. They had better knowledge of who Jesus was then us now and if they doubted it they wouldn't sacrifice their lives for a fairy tale

 

-- Most christians in my church "speak in tongues". Although there was some research suggesting glossolalia is a learned phenomenon I still find it extremely puzzling. From long time experience of observing the phenomenon I can say it is almost impossible to copy as it is so unlike regular language.

 

--Some christians in my church including my dad have "visions". They see these visions -like a picture, or a short scenario --during prayer and then tell it to each other after the prayer. It's hard for me to attribute this phenomenon to sensitive imagination of the vision seer. My dad who is almost innert to art, poetry and other imagination stimulating media has this "gift". Sometimes he can see several visions during one prayer that are hard to imagine even for a dreamer! btw, the visions he sees about me are not very positive.

 

--There are profits in the church who speak as if it is God speaking through them. Althogh most of the prophesies don't sound much different than quoted verses from the bible, others are quite personal. For example, I once remember my dad got sick with a disease that could not be seen by others, but was nevertherless quite serious; we kept it private for a few days. Then my mom went to prayer and without her saying anything a profit came up and said not to worry about dad as it was God's will to send the disease, but he would eventually get well. While there is a chance the profit simply guessed the problem, it is a big coincidence.

 

-- There are accounts of miracles in christian books. "Wigglesworth: the secret of his power", "God's generals" and few more books tell the stories of real people who lived maybe 50-100 years ago and some are still alive. Healings of cancer, deafness, blindness, paralysis abound in these books. These books are no more easy to believe than the gospels. Some are not even healings, but supernatural events. Grigoriy Zinchenko, an author of one book "The escape from Buchenvald (german concentration camp)" came to our church said a testimony and I later read his book. In it he describes his conversion, this is how he says it happened. When he returned back to Soviet Union from Germany he happened to be at prayer where peope "spoke in tongues". While he was standing next to an old lady he heard her speak in perfect german. She told him to take his communist party ticket out of his pocket and throw it away, repent and believe. He was surprized how she new he had the party ticket with him and started a conversation in german. The old lady it turned out did not know a word in german. This is a similar situation as was described earlier (about egyption guy), except that I have seen the guy who told this story. These are pretty extraordinary things. My question here is the same as I asked earlier, how can you be so delusioned to tell stories (and write books) with such unbelievable events? These are not your typical miracle --" My church prayed and I got a job!" or "We prayed and his cancer turned benign" that you can dispute with simple statistical arguments. These are rational people, so if things in the book did not happen, or did not happen as they tell them, then they are liers.

 

--There are verbal accounts of miracles that are sometimes first hand accounts. One person I know told me that when he was young his grandma had a first degree burn on her leg. The family got together right after the accident, prayed for her, and on their eyes the burned skin healed and she had no more pain. Another verbal account of a miracle I already told in this thread. I can still honestly say that I said everything as he told me. The explanations offered here are not sufficient for me to debunk the miracle. How do I know the guy did not lie to me? Years of experience among people like him convinced me that these people are not liers. Integrity pervades the culture of the church I go to. If, for example, I get an extra $1 or $10 or more of change and the cashier does not find out but I do later, I will return and give the money back.And I'm not even a christian, just grew up in the culture. No, real christian people are phenomenally honest.

 

There is a woman by the name of Jenya Polishchuk. She came to our church and said a testimony. The way she described it she was suffering from extreme form of athritis or some other bone disease for 7 years in former Soviet Union. Her body was crooked so that her knees touched her throat and she had trouble breathing. Her limbs were almost withered, she laid on her side for years and her mom spoon-fed her. Doctors did an x-ray on her and said she was going to die, so they sent her home. Then, a christian guy, who's name was Dmitry Berezyuk happened to come by. Because he was already known for having gift of healing, a lot of people gathered to see if something would happen. It was 1978, the time of atheism in Soviet Union. When he prayed the miracle happened. Instantaneously her whole body started to straighten up, everyone could hear the bones cracking. After years of lying in bad and being spoon-fed she got up on her feet and started walking. Because of the persecutions on christians Jenya immigrated to US, got married and now lives in the same state as I do (beautiful WA). Again, sounds quite incredible. What's interesting, I went to the (now) Ukraine and saw the guy who prayed for her. He repeats the same story. There was a woman who knew Jenya at the time of her disease (I think she was in the room during prayer, but can't be sure) and she also lives here in US and repeats the same story. Jenya still has medical records with her that show the diagnosis and gradual decline of her health. You wouldn't say she had any such disease if you saw her today.

If anyone reads in russian here is the link to the full story, told by Jenya:

http://www.evangelie.ru/forum/t24352.html

 

Ok, so you now know how I think. What I listed above is just a part but a substantial one of the total load of evidences for the truth of christianity that I have in my mind. In order to become a convicted atheist I would have to debunk or find an explanation to all of those to my heart's satisfaction.

On the other hand I cannot just become a christian. Evolution seems to be making sense, and honestly, if it was not for church I would not be aware of the concept of god. I can find contradictions in the Bible and have issues with the God's sense of fairness.

I know I won't be helped here, unless someone has been in my shoes which is unlikely. I venture to say my church experience differs from an average one you had. Some of you won't believe that I am not making all this up, some will think that I am embellishing. I am mainly writing to put my feelings and thoughts in words. What I want is to eventually find truth, or at least be convinced that I found truth. After all, the truth EXISTS. It's not relative. If you are standing next to the closed-door room and you don't know if it's empty or occupied, your not knowing does not change the fact that there is either someone inside or noone is inside. In the same way God either exists or does not exist, there is no relativism there. It is nonsense to say "well for me God does not exist maybe for you He does".

 

Thanks for all the links and book references about evolution. In parallel to researching atheism I am trying to understand christians better and find the source of their conviction.

Cheers, TA

ps:forgive my not perfect english, I am working on it.

[florduh]

TA, I think you explained yourself very well in that last post. And don't apologize for your English skills, they are fine.

 

People attribute miraculous looking events to various causes. The healings and visions, prophecies, etc. have happened to individuals of all religious persuasions as well as those with no religion. Those things don't, therefore, require an intervention of the god you think might exist.

 

The same kinds of evidence exist for alien abduction and all sorts of paranormal activity. Psychologists and neuro-scientists have physical explanations for most phenomena, while followers of the religions attribute everything to their particular god or gods.

 

Regarding healings, the mind-body connection can be amazing. It does seem odd that god has never grown a new limb or eye for someone who needed it. Possibly because those are things beyond the scope of the human body/mind to repair itself. Many faith healings have been proven fraudulent, which doesn't by itself rule out that the genuine may be possible, but it does show how badly people want to believe.

 

Many things will never be fully explained in your lifetime, so try to choose the most likely and logical explanations first.

[trueagnostic]

The healings and visions, prophecies, etc. have happened to individuals of all religious persuasions as well as those with no religion.

Florduh, thanks for the feedback.

Is anyone familiar with cults/religions (other than pentacostal/charismatic and other evangelical christians) that have active practice of "speaking in tongues", visions, or prophecies?

I would like to check out (so preferably in US) or at least know about such places. Just to see that these practices are not unique to evangelical christians.

Thanks.

[Vigile]

My initial reaction is that you've been reading Josh McDowell or someone influenced by him. Actually, my true intial reaction is you sound a lot like me when I was still trying to hang onto my faith, but that's neither here nor there.

 

Here's some quick thoughts:

 

--If you believe Jesus existed and everything about his life was true (except maybe miracles) then it is hard to explain how the prophesies concerning him got fulfilled.

 

Really? Please list the prophesies. You will find that they are broadly written, like horiscopes are now, so that they can easily fit many situations. And, keep in mind that old prophesies were known by those who wrote the Jesus accounts. It's not hard to fit the story after the fact is it not?

 

--If gospels are a fairy tale than they are a very unusual kind of fairy tale. Normal tales (and some legends) start with "once upon a time" and are pretty vague when it comes to timing, location, and places. When you read gospels they sound like those were real stories with places, events, time, and people backed by archeology.

 

Again, more McDowell here. Sound like real people? No they don't sound like Humpty Dumpty, but lots of myths are written about real sounding people. This doesn't sound like a strong point at all. Moreover, those who wrote the gospel accounts lived in the region. Of course some historical accuracy is to be expected. What does that prove? Tale of Two Cities also has acheological accuracies even though the book is known fiction.

 

--There was persecution on christians in the first century where people died for this faith in Jesus. They had better knowledge of who Jesus was then us now and if they doubted it they wouldn't sacrifice their lives for a fairy tale

 

I can give you an almost endless list of groups that have been persecuted. This Josh McDowell point is silly. As for dying and sacrificing for a belief, 911? Am I to now believe that Allah is the one true god?

 

-- Most christians in my church "speak in tongues". Although there was some research suggesting glossolalia is a learned phenomenon I still find it extremely puzzling. From long time experience of observing the phenomenon I can say it is almost impossible to copy as it is so unlike regular language.

 

I, and many others on this board can do this at will. What does this prove? Humans making human sounding noises is a phenomena?

 

--Some christians in my church including my dad have "visions". They see these visions -like a picture, or a short scenario --during prayer and then tell it to each other after the prayer. It's hard for me to attribute this phenomenon to sensitive imagination of the vision seer. My dad who is almost innert to art, poetry and other imagination stimulating media has this "gift". Sometimes he can see several visions during one prayer that are hard to imagine even for a dreamer! btw, the visions he sees about me are not very positive.

 

People tend to exagerate these things with flowery language. I seriously doubt your dad literally sees the heavens open or that he sees the 4 horses of the apocolypse in crisp detail. If he does I'd be worried for him. If you want something bad enough your brain tends to give you what you are looking for, or something close enough. Testimony of others that describes extrordinary events needs extraordinary evidence before it can be considered anything close to factual. I'm not saying your dad lies. In fact, I'm sure he believes profoundly. Many reasonable explanations can account for this, but you offer up only one very unreasonable one.

 

--There are profits in the church who speak as if it is God speaking through them. Althogh most of the prophesies don't sound much different than quoted verses from the bible, others are quite personal. For example, I once remember my dad got sick with a disease that could not be seen by others, but was nevertherless quite serious; we kept it private for a few days. Then my mom went to prayer and without her saying anything a profit came up and said not to worry about dad as it was God's will to send the disease, but he would eventually get well. While there is a chance the profit simply guessed the problem, it is a big coincidence.

 

I suggest you read up on the methodology of fortune tellers and their ilk. You will find it quite eye opening.

 

-- There are accounts of miracles in christian books. "Wigglesworth: the secret of his power", "God's generals" and few more books tell the stories of real people who lived maybe 50-100 years ago and some are still alive. Healings of cancer, deafness, blindness, paralysis abound in these books. These books are no more easy to believe than the gospels. Some are not even healings, but supernatural events. Grigoriy Zinchenko, an author of one book "The escape from Buchenvald (german concentration camp)" came to our church said a testimony and I later read his book. In it he describes his conversion, this is how he says it happened. When he returned back to Soviet Union from Germany he happened to be at prayer where peope "spoke in tongues". While he was standing next to an old lady he heard her speak in perfect german. She told him to take his communist party ticket out of his pocket and throw it away, repent and believe. He was surprized how she new he had the party ticket with him and started a conversation in german. The old lady it turned out did not know a word in german. This is a similar situation as was described earlier (about egyption guy), except that I have seen the guy who told this story. These are pretty extraordinary things. My question here is the same as I asked earlier, how can you be so delusioned to tell stories (and write books) with such unbelievable events? These are not your typical miracle --" My church prayed and I got a job!" or "We prayed and his cancer turned benign" that you can dispute with simple statistical arguments. These are rational people, so if things in the book did not happen, or did not happen as they tell them, then they are liers.

 

I've heard more of these accounts in my life than I'd care to. What I've never seen is proof of any sort.

 

If you tell me that yesterday you got up in the morning and went to work, I'd take you at your word as it is a reasonable account. If, however, you tell me you woke up last night to find you were getting an anal probe by aliens, I'd demand reasonable proof before I would ever take you seriously. Anything less would be imprudent of me.

 

--There are verbal accounts of miracles that are sometimes first hand accounts. One person I know told me that when he was young his grandma had a first degree burn on her leg. The family got together right after the accident, prayed for her, and on their eyes the burned skin healed and she had no more pain. Another verbal account of a miracle I already told in this thread. I can still honestly say that I said everything as he told me. The explanations offered here are not sufficient for me to debunk the miracle. How do I know the guy did not lie to me? Years of experience among people like him convinced me that these people are not liers. Integrity pervades the culture of the church I go to. If, for example, I get an extra $1 or $10 or more of change and the cashier does not find out but I do later, I will return and give the money back.And I'm not even a christian, just grew up in the culture. No, real christian people are phenomenally honest.

 

People tend to exagerate, even to themselves. Their reasons are legion. Every cult and its brother has similar stories. Are they then all true? See my answer above.

[trueagnostic]

My initial reaction is that you've been reading Josh McDowell or someone influenced by him.

That could be, don't remember specifically reading him though. At the time of writing I believed most points to have been my own, but I could just be using someone else's arguments I heard somewhere.Thanks for the feedback. Your statement about "speaking in tongues" to be easily learned behavior doesn't sound convincing to me. Have you tried it? There is probably a thread just on this issue, I will see if I can find it.