Question For Christians About Biblical Inerrancy

[Guest end3]

 

 

I don't agree Phanta because I believe that it is entirely possible to spend one's whole life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He was acting in our lives, but to then understand after we have died. So yeah, it can work for anyone through faith....IMO, of course.

 

 

I think you need to re-examine that opinion. You are saying, "God is so powerful and wonderful and his Holy Spirit moves mightily! But, you may not experience it." That sounds more like a legal disclaimer an insurance company would come up with.

 

What a great sales pitch! And, is it what you Christians would call "biblical?"

 

Ha Ha...I think y'all are misinterpreting can vs will. He can, but He wills based on sovereignty. How each of us plays a role in that process? Good question.

[Shyone]

If you are talking about having your son back physically, no, I don't believe that will happen.

Why not? That would be a miracle, and God can do miracles, can't he? And of course He would want to.

 

Would it be too obvious? I mean, God wouldn't want to give any really obvious clues to his existence. Better to hide and have everyone assume that such miracles can't happen.

 

Funny how "The Plan" seems so much like ordinary nature - we are born, we die, and we don't come back.

 

Well, with a few exceptions that happened in order to... What was that again? Why did those other people come back to life?

 

ETA: You don't think it's possible, do you? You really don't have that kind of faith. You know, deep down, it's a crock.

 

You are assuming for me.

Nice dodge. Really nice.

 

You are the one that presumed that no miracle such as you described would not happen. Why did you presume that?

[Phanta]

So please in light of my argument above why should god be trusted?

Because it has worked for many, not everyone at this particular point in time, but how do we discern the complete truth either way? It has worked for me. I speculate that for you, like Hans, it has not worked. Why would it ask for continued faith if it were immediate? I would please like you to respond to this.

 

What's good for some is good for all. What works for some can work for all.

 

This is the untruth which renders your witness ineffective here. So long as you believe this, your circle of influence will be limited to people similar to you.

 

Phanta

 

I don't agree Phanta because I believe that it is entirely possible to spend one's whole life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He was acting in our lives, but to then understand after we have died. So yeah, it can work for anyone through faith....IMO, of course.

 

You believe that if xyz is possible for some, xyz is possible for everyone. Is this a correct understanding of your view?

 

Phanta

[Ouroboros]

 

What's good for some is good for all. What works for some can work for all.

 

This is the untruth which renders your witness ineffective here. So long as you believe this, your circle of influence will be limited to people similar to you.

 

Phanta

 

I don't agree Phanta because I believe that it is entirely possible to spend one's whole life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He was acting in our lives, but to then understand after we have died. So yeah, it can work for anyone through faith....IMO, of course.

You just confirmed what Phanta said.

 

Your witnessing won't work here because you have exactly that view. You think that everyone is alike. And thinking that, your dealing with issues and questions here, will be ineffective.

 

So the funny things is, by you not agreeing, you confirmed what she said.

[Phanta]

 

What's good for some is good for all. What works for some can work for all.

 

This is the untruth which renders your witness ineffective here. So long as you believe this, your circle of influence will be limited to people similar to you.

 

Phanta

 

I don't agree Phanta because I believe that it is entirely possible to spend one's whole life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He was acting in our lives, but to then understand after we have died. So yeah, it can work for anyone through faith....IMO, of course.

You just confirmed what Phanta said.

 

Your witnessing won't work here because you have exactly that view. You think that everyone is alike. And thinking that, your dealing with issues and questions here, will be ineffective.

 

So the funny things is, by you not agreeing, you confirmed what she said.

 

Yes.

 

End: you didn't hone in on the point I was making. This is my fault. I think my leaving your bolding in your post confused you, as that suggested I was addressing specifically the sentence about living life in faith without spectacular experiential evidence of God. I wasn't.

 

My commentary is on your thought systems on how people operate.

 

You seem to see us as a collective of similar beings who, placed in a particular system, will operate in similar ways. One reason I think it is hard for you to really hear witness of others here is that this belief is really important to your functioning in the world. It is serving your life in a really important way.

 

That's ok. And it's why it's so hard for us to communicate.

 

Phanta

[Guest end3]

If you are talking about having your son back physically, no, I don't believe that will happen.

Why not? That would be a miracle, and God can do miracles, can't he? And of course He would want to.

 

Would it be too obvious? I mean, God wouldn't want to give any really obvious clues to his existence. Better to hide and have everyone assume that such miracles can't happen.

 

Funny how "The Plan" seems so much like ordinary nature - we are born, we die, and we don't come back.

 

Well, with a few exceptions that happened in order to... What was that again? Why did those other people come back to life?

 

ETA: You don't think it's possible, do you? You really don't have that kind of faith. You know, deep down, it's a crock.

 

You are assuming for me.

Nice dodge. Really nice.

 

You are the one that presumed that no miracle such as you described would not happen. Why did you presume that?

 

As I have stated several times, I don't think He will intervene at this point, until He comes back....part of that "revelation" of my experience.

[Phanta]

it is entirely possible

 

therefore

 

it can work for anyone

[Antlerman]

I don't agree Phanta because I believe that it is entirely possible to spend one's whole life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He was acting in our lives, but to then understand after we have died. So yeah, it can work for anyone through faith....IMO, of course.

Challenge time.

 

I don't agree. If you live your entire life in "faith" without it being a real, living, and vital experience in you personal life, then you in fact, were not, in fact, living "in faith". You were living an insincere life. Bad faith. You were simply adhering to set of social doctrines without it ever being about individual choice of freewill.

 

Faith is about engaging the whole person, body, mind, and 'spirit'. If that is the case, then you will most definitely experience it on some existential level. It may not be in the form of some extreme, profound moment of transcendental enlightenment, but rather a deep, rooted, engagement of your whole person - your existential self, not just your reason, or emotions, or will, nor even the sum of parts of them. In that case, then the benefit is now, not after you die. To not have that now, I would say that they don't have faith, even if they are part of a religious context.

 

If adhering to a religious system where you don't have that in this life will benefit you via fiat, by benefit of reward in the afterlife for mere group membership now in this life, then God is legalistic, and not Spirit. But if it is a matter of life being fulfilled through engaging the whole person in an act of faith, then it is faith itself that is its own means to that 'spiritual' end, and not the symbols people use in their expressions of that faith. It is faith, not the symbols alone that grant access to that level of being. Nor would having the right set of symbols in this life mean diddly-squat in the next.

 

Do you follow this?

[Guest end3]

So please in light of my argument above why should god be trusted?

Because it has worked for many, not everyone at this particular point in time, but how do we discern the complete truth either way? It has worked for me. I speculate that for you, like Hans, it has not worked. Why would it ask for continued faith if it were immediate? I would please like you to respond to this.

 

What's good for some is good for all. What works for some can work for all.

 

This is the untruth which renders your witness ineffective here. So long as you believe this, your circle of influence will be limited to people similar to you.

 

Phanta

 

I don't agree Phanta because I believe that it is entirely possible to spend one's whole life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He was acting in our lives, but to then understand after we have died. So yeah, it can work for anyone through faith....IMO, of course.

 

You believe that if xyz is possible for some, xyz is possible for everyone. Is this a correct understanding of your view?

 

Phanta

 

Yes, we may be cognitive of xyz when it is happening, or don't realize xyz until many years later, or even not understand until after death. IMO.

[The-Captain]

Faith is about engaging the whole person, body, mind, and 'spirit'.

 

"You shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind"? I never thought about it that way. Seems most churches or adherents emphasize one aspect or another.

[Guest end3]

 

What's good for some is good for all. What works for some can work for all.

 

This is the untruth which renders your witness ineffective here. So long as you believe this, your circle of influence will be limited to people similar to you.

 

Phanta

 

I don't agree Phanta because I believe that it is entirely possible to spend one's whole life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He was acting in our lives, but to then understand after we have died. So yeah, it can work for anyone through faith....IMO, of course.

You just confirmed what Phanta said.

 

Your witnessing won't work here because you have exactly that view. You think that everyone is alike. And thinking that, your dealing with issues and questions here, will be ineffective.

 

So the funny things is, by you not agreeing, you confirmed what she said.

 

Yes.

 

End: you didn't hone in on the point I was making. This is my fault. I think my leaving your bolding in your post confused you, as that suggested I was addressing specifically the sentence about living life in faith without spectacular experiential evidence of God. I wasn't.

 

My commentary is on your thought systems on how people operate.

 

You seem to see us as a collective of similar beings who, placed in a particular system, will operate in similar ways. One reason I think it is hard for you to really hear witness of others here is that this belief is really important to your functioning in the world. It is serving your life in a really important way.

 

That's ok. And it's why it's so hard for us to communicate.

 

Phanta

 

That's ok Phanta, but the bible's perspective is either true or it is not. To my knowledge, it is for those of faith. Now, within the realm of similar beings within a particular system, I would ask that you be a little more specific so maybe we could communicate. Hopefully so.

[Phanta]

Yes, we may be cognitive of xyz when it is happening, or don't realize xyz until many years later, or even not understand until after death. IMO.

 

I can accept the witness of another that it has been possible for them to spend their whole life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He was acting in our lives. Without talking to the dead, I can't accept that they "understood" that expenditure after death. Evidence hasn't been presented that makes sense to me, evidence that is, for me, sufficient to accept the statement as true. I am capable of acknowledging that it could happen, just as the sun may not rise tomorrow morning. Could happen. But I'm not going to run my life like it's gonna. That's not going to make me functional, End. It's gonna make me a wreck again, like you knew me for a sad, sad year of my life.

 

So, I can't "know" that those who live a life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He is acting in their lives "understand" it all after they die.

 

However--AND THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT--I see that you believe this thing and it is a very real, powerful, working concept in your mind and in your life.

 

You cannot reciprocate this level of empathy because it conflicts with your fundamentalist worldview and causes uncomfortable cognitive dissonance. I think this is why you sometimes balk when you feel "forced" into empathy. It harms you to be empathic with people who are very dissimilar to you. In that moment when you begin to touch on empathy, you experience cognitive dissonance due to the intense conflict with your religious system, and it's the mind's job to get us out of cognitive dissonance as quickly as possible. Do do this, you must discard one of the conflicting thoughts--whichever you need more gets to stay. You need your religious system more than you need true connection with us (through empathy), so we are discarded. I know this, End, because I have a long history of being discarded by fundamentalist thinkers. It's not personal...it's just your mind trying to keep you safe. It's really normal. That doesn't mean that there aren't harmful consequences to the discarded, but I know that you're doing your best to be your best self even as you are decidedly human.

 

However, if you, End, cannot reciprocate--if you hold to the fundamentalist belief that what is good for some is good for all, and what does work for for some can, therefore, work for everyone--your influence on people as dissimilar to yourself as we are will be severely curtailed. Failure will dog you.

 

So, that's why the divide, that's why the chasm between the fundamentalist and anyone else, fundamentalist or not. Between us.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

That's ok Phanta, but the bible's perspective is either true or it is not.

 

Black or white. On or off. All or nothing. Discard the witness of those for whom it is not true.

 

Phanta

[Guest end3]

I don't agree Phanta because I believe that it is entirely possible to spend one's whole life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He was acting in our lives, but to then understand after we have died. So yeah, it can work for anyone through faith....IMO, of course.

Challenge time.

 

I don't agree. If you live your entire life in "faith" without it being a real, living, and vital experience in you personal life, then you in fact, were not, in fact, living "in faith". You were living an insincere life. Bad faith. You were simply adhering to set of social doctrines without it ever being about individual choice of freewill.

 

Faith is about engaging the whole person, body, mind, and 'spirit'. If that is the case, then you will most definitely experience it on some existential level. It may not be in the form of some extreme, profound moment of transcendental enlightenment, but rather a deep, rooted, engagement of your whole person - your existential self, not just your reason, or emotions, or will, nor even the sum of parts of them. In that case, then the benefit is now, not after you die. To not have that now, I would say that they don't have faith, even if they are part of a religious context.

 

If adhering to a religious system where you don't have that in this life will benefit you via fiat, by benefit of reward in the afterlife for mere group membership now in this life, then God is legalistic, and not Spirit. But if it is a matter of life being fulfilled through engaging the whole person in an act of faith, then it is faith itself that is its own means to that 'spiritual' end, and not the symbols people use in their expressions of that faith. It is faith, not the symbols alone that grant access to that level of being. Nor would having the right set of symbols in this life mean diddly-squat in the next.

 

Do you follow this?

 

I am trying to express the reciprical expectations we have regarding the relationship. I believe our expectations from the Christian group that "has it all" coupled with the expectation that success is to "have it all", persuades us to think that that relationship has to meet these expectations for God to be present in our lives....i.e...."He never answered me"....in the way we had anticipated. Heaven may surely await us after a life of crap.....as Revelation is geared towards.

[Guest end3]

Yes, we may be cognitive of xyz when it is happening, or don't realize xyz until many years later, or even not understand until after death. IMO.

 

I can accept the witness of another that it has been possible for them to spend their whole life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He was acting in our lives. Without talking to the dead, I can't accept that they "understood" that expenditure after death. Evidence hasn't been presented that makes sense to me, evidence that is, for me, sufficient to accept the statement as true. I am capable of acknowledging that it could happen, just as the sun may not rise tomorrow morning. Could happen. But I'm not going to run my life like it's gonna. That's not going to make me functional, End. It's gonna make me a wreck again, like you knew me for a sad, sad year of my life.

 

So, I can't "know" that those who live a life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He is acting in their lives "understand" it all after they die.

 

However--AND THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT--I see that you believe this thing and it is a very real, powerful, working concept in your mind and in your life.

 

You cannot reciprocate this level of empathy because it conflicts with your fundamentalist worldview and causes uncomfortable cognitive dissonance. I think this is why you sometimes balk when you feel "forced" into empathy. It harms you to be empathic with people who are very dissimilar to you. In that moment when you begin to touch on empathy, you experience cognitive dissonance due to the intense conflict with your religious system, and it's the mind's job to get us out of cognitive dissonance as quickly as possible. Do do this, you must discard one of the conflicting thoughts--whichever you need more gets to stay. You need your religious system more than you need true connection with us (through empathy), so we are discarded. I know this, End, because I have a long history of being discarded by fundamentalist thinkers. It's not personal...it's just your mind trying to keep you safe. It's really normal. That doesn't mean that there aren't harmful consequences to the discarded, but I know that you're doing your best to be your best self even as you are decidedly human.

 

However, if you, End, cannot reciprocate--if you hold to the fundamentalist belief that what is good for some is good for all, and what does work for for some can, therefore, work for everyone--your influence on people as dissimilar to yourself as we are will be severely curtailed. Failure will dog you.

 

So, that's why the divide, that's why the chasm between the fundamentalist and anyone else, fundamentalist or not. Between us.

 

Phanta

 

Perhaps it is a failure on my part, but I cannot accept that view Phanta. You are right, I like most of you very much, probably much more than many, but the evidence for me, in my heart, really suggests truth is in Christ.

 

Our maturity leads us to love as the final verdict vs. rules, but I don't think this supersedes faith in Christ. Love Him first, and secondly your neighbor. It's not personal Phanta, it's evidence that I have considered.

[Phanta]

Perhaps it is a failure on my part, but I cannot accept that view Phanta.

 

Failure is your language, End, not mine. I am coming to accept different brain operation as What Is.

 

the evidence for me, in my heart, really suggests truth is in Christ.

 

I see that works for you.

 

What makes you make the leap that because you have found truth in Christ, all can find their truth in Christ?

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

Perhaps it is a failure on my part, but I cannot accept that view Phanta.

 

Failure is your language, End, not mine. I am coming to accept different brain operation as What Is.

 

the evidence for me, in my heart, really suggests truth is in Christ.

 

I see that works for you.

 

What makes you make the leap that because you have found truth in Christ, all can find their truth in Christ?

 

Phanta

 

I see where I did say failure...I meant it different though....or maybe I'm reading your wrong. Give me a minute to reread...

[Phanta]

Yes, we may be cognitive of xyz when it is happening, or don't realize xyz until many years later, or even not understand until after death. IMO.

 

I can accept the witness of another that it has been possible for them to spend their whole life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He was acting in our lives. Without talking to the dead, I can't accept that they "understood" that expenditure after death. Evidence hasn't been presented that makes sense to me, evidence that is, for me, sufficient to accept the statement as true. I am capable of acknowledging that it could happen, just as the sun may not rise tomorrow morning. Could happen. But I'm not going to run my life like it's gonna. That's not going to make me functional, End. It's gonna make me a wreck again, like you knew me for a sad, sad year of my life.

 

So, I can't "know" that those who live a life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He is acting in their lives "understand" it all after they die.

 

However--AND THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT--I see that you believe this thing and it is a very real, powerful, working concept in your mind and in your life.

 

You cannot reciprocate this level of empathy because it conflicts with your fundamentalist worldview and causes uncomfortable cognitive dissonance. I think this is why you sometimes balk when you feel "forced" into empathy. It harms you to be empathic with people who are very dissimilar to you. In that moment when you begin to touch on empathy, you experience cognitive dissonance due to the intense conflict with your religious system, and it's the mind's job to get us out of cognitive dissonance as quickly as possible. Do do this, you must discard one of the conflicting thoughts--whichever you need more gets to stay. You need your religious system more than you need true connection with us (through empathy), so we are discarded. I know this, End, because I have a long history of being discarded by fundamentalist thinkers. It's not personal...it's just your mind trying to keep you safe. It's really normal. That doesn't mean that there aren't harmful consequences to the discarded, but I know that you're doing your best to be your best self even as you are decidedly human.

 

However, if you, End, cannot reciprocate--if you hold to the fundamentalist belief that what is good for some is good for all, and what does work for for some can, therefore, work for everyone--your influence on people as dissimilar to yourself as we are will be severely curtailed. Failure will dog you.

 

So, that's why the divide, that's why the chasm between the fundamentalist and anyone else, fundamentalist or not. Between us.

 

Phanta

 

Perhaps it is a failure on my part, but I cannot accept that view Phanta. You are right, I like most of you very much, probably much more than many, but the evidence for me, in my heart, really suggests truth is in Christ.

 

Our maturity leads us to love as the final verdict vs. rules, but I don't think this supersedes faith in Christ. Love Him first, and secondly your neighbor. It's not personal Phanta, it's evidence that I have considered.

 

I reread it and I revise my reply to:

 

Ok. I'll take your word for it that you have considered the evidence. I will believe that love can build a bridge over a chasm of this nature when I see it. So far, my life's experience is there is just a gaping hole with a couple of people calling out to one another across it, congratulating themselves on how loud they can shout.

 

Phanta

[Guest end3]

Yes, we may be cognitive of xyz when it is happening, or don't realize xyz until many years later, or even not understand until after death. IMO.

 

I can accept the witness of another that it has been possible for them to spend their whole life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He was acting in our lives. Without talking to the dead, I can't accept that they "understood" that expenditure after death. Evidence hasn't been presented that makes sense to me, evidence that is, for me, sufficient to accept the statement as true. I am capable of acknowledging that it could happen, just as the sun may not rise tomorrow morning. Could happen. But I'm not going to run my life like it's gonna. That's not going to make me functional, End. It's gonna make me a wreck again, like you knew me for a sad, sad year of my life.

 

So, I can't "know" that those who live a life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He is acting in their lives "understand" it all after they die.

 

However--AND THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT--I see that you believe this thing and it is a very real, powerful, working concept in your mind and in your life.

 

You cannot reciprocate this level of empathy because it conflicts with your fundamentalist worldview and causes uncomfortable cognitive dissonance. I think this is why you sometimes balk when you feel "forced" into empathy. It harms you to be empathic with people who are very dissimilar to you. In that moment when you begin to touch on empathy, you experience cognitive dissonance due to the intense conflict with your religious system, and it's the mind's job to get us out of cognitive dissonance as quickly as possible. Do do this, you must discard one of the conflicting thoughts--whichever you need more gets to stay. You need your religious system more than you need true connection with us (through empathy), so we are discarded. I know this, End, because I have a long history of being discarded by fundamentalist thinkers. It's not personal...it's just your mind trying to keep you safe. It's really normal. That doesn't mean that there aren't harmful consequences to the discarded, but I know that you're doing your best to be your best self even as you are decidedly human.

 

However, if you, End, cannot reciprocate--if you hold to the fundamentalist belief that what is good for some is good for all, and what does work for for some can, therefore, work for everyone--your influence on people as dissimilar to yourself as we are will be severely curtailed. Failure will dog you.

 

So, that's why the divide, that's why the chasm between the fundamentalist and anyone else, fundamentalist or not. Between us.

 

Phanta

 

Perhaps it is a failure on my part, but I cannot accept that view Phanta. You are right, I like most of you very much, probably much more than many, but the evidence for me, in my heart, really suggests truth is in Christ.

 

Our maturity leads us to love as the final verdict vs. rules, but I don't think this supersedes faith in Christ. Love Him first, and secondly your neighbor. It's not personal Phanta, it's evidence that I have considered.

 

I reread it and I revise my reply to:

 

Ok. I'll take your word for it that you have considered the evidence. I will believe that love can build a bridge over a chasm of this nature when I see it. So far, my life's experience is there is just a gaping hole with a couple of people calling out to one another across it, congratulating themselves on how loud they can shout.

 

Phanta

 

The inadaquacy is surely mine...but all I can do is hold firm to my understanding of truth to guide the process to some end. You are saying that my fruit is sour. I will think on this when I am traveling. Thanks P, I am trying to listen. There are rules, but my understanding of them may certainly need work.

[Phanta]

I will think on this when I am traveling.

 

Be safe, traveling.

 

Phanta

[oddbird1963]

 

I think you need to re-examine that opinion. You are saying, "God is so powerful and wonderful and his Holy Spirit moves mightily! But, you may not experience it." That sounds more like a legal disclaimer an insurance company would come up with.

 

What a great sales pitch! And, is it what you Christians would call "biblical?"

 

Ha Ha...I think y'all are misinterpreting can vs will. He can, but He wills based on sovereignty. How each of us plays a role in that process? Good question.

 

Misinterpreting can vs. will? Where exactly does that even apply. I used the word may, which is very similar in connotation to the word "can." So, your response is quite muddled.

 

And, if being "biblical" is important to you, how "biblical" is your position that a person can go through their whole life and not experience god, yet somehow experience god on the other side?

[Antlerman]

I don't agree Phanta because I believe that it is entirely possible to spend one's whole life in faith without "wonderful" experiential evidence that He was acting in our lives, but to then understand after we have died. So yeah, it can work for anyone through faith....IMO, of course.

Challenge time.

 

I don't agree. If you live your entire life in "faith" without it being a real, living, and vital experience in you personal life, then you in fact, were not, in fact, living "in faith". You were living an insincere life. Bad faith. You were simply adhering to set of social doctrines without it ever being about individual choice of freewill.

 

Faith is about engaging the whole person, body, mind, and 'spirit'. If that is the case, then you will most definitely experience it on some existential level. It may not be in the form of some extreme, profound moment of transcendental enlightenment, but rather a deep, rooted, engagement of your whole person - your existential self, not just your reason, or emotions, or will, nor even the sum of parts of them. In that case, then the benefit is now, not after you die. To not have that now, I would say that they don't have faith, even if they are part of a religious context.

 

If adhering to a religious system where you don't have that in this life will benefit you via fiat, by benefit of reward in the afterlife for mere group membership now in this life, then God is legalistic, and not Spirit. But if it is a matter of life being fulfilled through engaging the whole person in an act of faith, then it is faith itself that is its own means to that 'spiritual' end, and not the symbols people use in their expressions of that faith. It is faith, not the symbols alone that grant access to that level of being. Nor would having the right set of symbols in this life mean diddly-squat in the next.

 

Do you follow this?

 

I am trying to express the reciprical expectations we have regarding the relationship. I believe our expectations from the Christian group that "has it all" coupled with the expectation that success is to "have it all", persuades us to think that that relationship has to meet these expectations for God to be present in our lives....i.e...."He never answered me"....in the way we had anticipated. Heaven may surely await us after a life of crap.....as Revelation is geared towards.

The only expectations I have from any group claiming truth is that the fruits of it are manifest in their lives, here and now. If it is not, then the problem may be the systems of symbols, the lack of faith, or a combination of the both. If someone engages themselves existentially from the whole person, then that is faith in action. Because the nature of faith transcends the mere functional needs of daily life and its supporting structures of sign systems, it needs to engage in more transcendent symbols, which become part of that experience of that faith (regardless of the specific forms of those symbols). Those symbols become entwined with that faith as an object of that faith, an expression of that faith. But it is that faith that precedes the symbols, that seeks to embrace them and use them as a means to a higher expression of that faith, a higher consciousness, a higher reality existentially; physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually.

 

When those symbols are taken apart from an act of faith, their power is distorted into a tool of control of the body and mind. Their power is in the attachment of whatever ideals suits the daily, functional systems, such as a societies, or a government, or a religious-based institution exercising control over individuals. Those symbols then, if substituted as the power itself without the act of faith, becomes in essence idolatry. The only expectation I have of a system is its ability to engage the whole person in such a way as that it manifests the 'fruits of the spirit'. And those are not division, exclusion, strife, combativeness, anger, pride, etc.

 

Again, I see no value to anyone claiming Christianity as truth if the fruits of faith don't follow. That name is no ticket to heaven, any more than not calling yourself a Christian is a ticket to hell. Faith is not the property of Christianity, nor any religion. Does it benefit spiritually - in this life. Does it lead the individual to bear fruit?

 

And BTW, your embrace of Christ fits in here without any judgment on my part. It's what's in you I see. Not the objects of faith.

[Skankboy]

That's ok Phanta, but the bible's perspective is either true or it is not.

Sorry, but that's a false dictomy in my opinion. You are using true in the sense of "TRUE". We are using it in the sense of "true". There are many truths. Some work for some not for others.

 

As Obi-wan says "It's true, from a certain point of view".

 

The issue as I see it is your belief system cannot allow any other truths because it claims to have the "TRUTH".

 

Which of us is truly more open to the other's beliefs? The one who accepts that "different strokes work for different folks" or the one who says "my way or the highway"?

 

Antlerman and I disagree on many things. He's a symbolically minded person, I'm not. That doesn't mean I don't see value in his beliefs or that they are not "true", they just don't work for me. We both know the "truth", but neither of us claim the "TRUTH".

[Phanta]

You are saying that my fruit is sour.

 

I am saying a great deal more than that. That is descriptive of my position as "male" is descriptive of you as a human being. It's a true thing, but it wouldn't help me pick you out of a line-up.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

The issue as I see it is your belief system cannot allow any other truths because it claims to have the "TRUTH".

 

Which of us is truly more open to the other's beliefs? The one who accepts that "different strokes work for different folks" or the one who says "my way or the highway"?

 

<==== Has spent her life on the highway!

 

The fundamentalists knew I wasn't a fundamentalist before I did.

 

Phanta