Question For Christians About Biblical Inerrancy

[Phanta]

The bible is a hodgepodge of ideas; a virtual grab-bag, where anyone can pick and choose, making it mean whatever they want it to mean, so they can support ANY deluded agenda they want.

Or it is written to reveal itself to people in many different situations....

Like Astrology! Or that 8 ball thingy!

 

No wonder horoscopes are so popular.

 

My Chinese character is dead on, I'll tell you. But it's not supposed to go well with my wife's chinese sign. Should I leave her?

 

or chould it be that God set the stars and men look to them for understanding?

 

Is that what you believe? There are signs from God in the alignment of the stars?

 

Phanta

[bdp]

...sometimes this site needs to come with a barf bag...

[Vixentrox]

The bible is a hodgepodge of ideas; a virtual grab-bag, where anyone can pick and choose, making it mean whatever they want it to mean, so they can support ANY deluded agenda they want.

Or it is written to reveal itself to people in many different situations....

Like Astrology! Or that 8 ball thingy!

 

No wonder horoscopes are so popular.

 

My Chinese character is dead on, I'll tell you. But it's not supposed to go well with my wife's chinese sign. Should I leave her?

 

or chould it be that God set the stars and men look to them for understanding?

 

Is that what you believe? There are signs from God in the alignment of the stars?

 

Phanta

And on the 8th day, god gave man astrology.....

[Sconnor]

The bible is a hodgepodge of ideas; a virtual grab-bag, where anyone can pick and choose, making it mean whatever they want it to mean, so they can support ANY deluded agenda they want.

Or it is written to reveal itself to people in many different situations....

 

Riiiiight -- it's written to reveal itself to people in these situations: how to justify slavery, witch burnings, the crusades, the inquisition, and blowing up abortion clinics.

 

It's the same book that made it possible for these situations to flourish: discrimination against interracial marriages, for parents to beat their children with a rod, for parents to only pray, while withholding medical intervention, allowing their children to die, to refuse blood transfusions to children, for some denominations and sects to not allow woman a place of authority, to teach ignorance, in the form of creationism, in the schoolroom.

 

Let's not forget these situations that the bible revealed to people:

 

Loaded weapon toting Christians in Northern Ireland, Catholics vrs. Protestants in a 30 year old bloodbath.

 

Uganda -- Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,000 children a year.

 

~also~

 

Situations that make it possible abstain from condom use, allowing millions to die.

 

Situations that make it possible for polygamy to flourish, where women are held captive and children are raped and abused.

 

Situations that make it possible to relegate women to a subservient role to their husbands.

 

Situations that make it possible for Jews to mutilate their baby boys penises.

 

Situations that make it possible to call gay people an abomination.

 

Situations that make it possible to discriminates against a gay couple having the same rights as everyone.

 

Situations that make it possible for cults to brainwash their followers.

 

Situations that makes it possible for christians to have a hundred different interpretations on how to obtain eternal life, with an array of endless combinations, all the while, claiming their interpretation is the one and only truth and on and on and on.

 

End -- do you ever get the notion you're a pathetic buffoon trying to defend the indefensible?

 

#1409, #1410 & #1412, still await.......

 

Oh and I noticed you conveniently ignored another post -- #1438.

 

I see you are employing the "sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich defense".

 

Way to go end!

 

--S.

[Antlerman]

I appreciate the efforts Phanta, but there is a difference...just ask AM and NB. They want me to accept that the "larger god" may certainly be what I perceive as Christ, but they are then unwilling to accept that Christ is the "larger god". That is a very distinct condition. Just ask them.

If God is infinite, then can it be named? How can you name what is infinite? You can however symbolize it, put a name on it, but the minute you do that it is no longer infinite. Christ is a face of God.

 

Even the Bible in its mystical language in John 1 bears this out referring to him as the Logos. The Manifestor of God, the infinite, unkowable. The Logos is mediator between the infinite unknowable and the manifest world, which according is done through the agent of that manifestation, the Logos. But behind Logos, is infinity. Logos is the mediator. The manifestation of the infinite, but is in itself not the infinite! Part of the infinite, an aspect of it, the radiation of it, which in itself you could say is God manifest, but behind Christ, and behind God is infinite, into infinite, into infinite. Endless. No name. You cannot name IT, and allow it "to be". I AM.

 

And that's why they think that I can't love to some better degree or will "continue to have a problem" if I can't get past this.

I think you can love just fine. But there is infinite depths of that love. I dipped my cup into that well and it is limitless. You are not outside it, nor is anyone. It is only our minds and hearts that block our vision of it; that creates barriers of thought, divisions of us and them. It is not God that withdraws or withholds.

[Ouroboros]

If God is infinite, then can it be named? How can you name what is infinite? You can however symbolize it, put a name on it, but the minute you do that it is no longer infinite. Christ is a face of God.

"It is from the unnamed Tao

That Heaven and Earth sprang;

The named is but

The Mother of the ten thousand creatures."

[Antlerman]

If God is infinite, then can it be named? How can you name what is infinite? You can however symbolize it, put a name on it, but the minute you do that it is no longer infinite. Christ is a face of God.

"It is from the unnamed Tao

That Heaven and Earth sprang;

The named is but

The Mother of the ten thousand creatures."

[Ouroboros]

Here's another translation:

The tao that can be told

is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named

is not the eternal Name.

 

The unnamable is the eternally real.

Naming is the origin

of all particular things.

 

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.

Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

 

Yet mystery and manifestations

arise from the same source.

This source is called darkness.

 

Darkness within darkness.

The gateway to all understanding.

 

Now we're talking symbols!

[Antlerman]

Here's another translation:

The tao that can be told

is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named

is not the eternal Name.

 

The unnamable is the eternally real.

Naming is the origin

of all particular things.

 

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.

Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

 

Yet mystery and manifestations

arise from the same source.

This source is called darkness.

 

Darkness within darkness.

The gateway to all understanding.

 

Now we're talking symbols!

Sounds like what the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart said,

 

Whoever does not leave all external aspects of creatures can neither be received into this divine birth nor be born. The more you are able to bring all your powers to a unity and a forgetfulness of all the objects and images you have absorbed, and the more you depart from creatures and their images, the nearer and more receptive you are. If you were able to become completely unaware of all things, attain forgetfulness of things and of self, the more the silent darkness where you will come to recognition of the unknown, transbegotten God. For this ignorance draws you away from all knowledge about things, and beyond this it draws you away from yourself.

 

So there you have a Christian who sees God as beyond any symbols...

[Guest end3]

Here's another translation:

The tao that can be told

is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named

is not the eternal Name.

 

The unnamable is the eternally real.

Naming is the origin

of all particular things.

 

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.

Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

 

Yet mystery and manifestations

arise from the same source.

This source is called darkness.

 

Darkness within darkness.

The gateway to all understanding.

 

Now we're talking symbols!

Sounds like what the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart said,

 

Whoever does not leave all external aspects of creatures can neither be received into this divine birth nor be born. The more you are able to bring all your powers to a unity and a forgetfulness of all the objects and images you have absorbed, and the more you depart from creatures and their images, the nearer and more receptive you are. If you were able to become completely unaware of all things, attain forgetfulness of things and of self, the more the silent darkness where you will come to recognition of the unknown, transbegotten God. For this ignorance draws you away from all knowledge about things, and beyond this it draws you away from yourself.

 

So there you have a Christian who sees God as beyond any symbols...

 

How do you not just give up for a guy as old as you are?

[Sconnor]

Here's another translation:

The tao that can be told

is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named

is not the eternal Name.

 

The unnamable is the eternally real.

Naming is the origin

of all particular things.

 

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.

Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

 

Yet mystery and manifestations

arise from the same source.

This source is called darkness.

 

Darkness within darkness.

The gateway to all understanding.

 

Now we're talking symbols!

Sounds like what the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart said,

 

Whoever does not leave all external aspects of creatures can neither be received into this divine birth nor be born. The more you are able to bring all your powers to a unity and a forgetfulness of all the objects and images you have absorbed, and the more you depart from creatures and their images, the nearer and more receptive you are. If you were able to become completely unaware of all things, attain forgetfulness of things and of self, the more the silent darkness where you will come to recognition of the unknown, transbegotten God. For this ignorance draws you away from all knowledge about things, and beyond this it draws you away from yourself.

 

So there you have a Christian who sees God as beyond any symbols...

 

If you meet Buddha in the road kill him.

 

--S.

[NotBlinded]

So there you have a Christian who sees God as beyond any symbols...

Here is another one:

 

What is Divine Darkness?

 

Supernal Triad, Deity above all essence, knowledge and goodness; Guide of Christians to Divine Wisdom; direct our path to the ultimate summit of your mystical knowledge, most incomprehensible, most luminous and most exalted, where the pure, absolute and immutable mysteries of theology are veiled in the dazzling obscurity of the secret Silence, outshining all brilliance with the intensity of their Darkness, and surcharging our blinded intellects with the utterly impalpable and invisible fairness of glories surpassing all beauty.

 

Let this be my prayer; but do, dear Timothy, in the diligent exercise of mystical contemplation, leave behind the senses and the operations of the intellect, and all things sensible and intellectual, and all things in the world of being and nonbeing, that you may arise by unknowing towards the union, as far as is attainable, with it that transcends all being and all knowledge.(1) For by the unceasing and absolute renunciation of yourself and of all things you may be borne on high, through pure and entire self-abnegation, into the superessential Radiance of the Divine Darkness.(2)

 

But these things are not to be disclosed to the uninitiated, by whom I mean those attached to the objects of human thought, and who believe there is no superessential Reality beyond, and who imagine that by their own understanding they know it that has made Darkness Its secret place. And if the principles of the divine Mysteries are beyond the understanding of these, what is to be said of others still more incapable thereof, who describe the transcendental First Cause of all by characteristics drawn from the lowest order of beings, while they deny that it is in any way above the images which they fashion after various designs; whereas they should affirm that, while it possesses all the positive attributes of the universe (being the Universal Cause) yet, in a more strict sense, it does not possess them, since it transcends them all; wherefore there is no contradiction between the affirmations and the negations, inasmuch as it infinitely precedes all conceptions of deprivation, being beyond all positive and negative distinctions.

The Mystical Theology

Dionysius the Pseudo-Areopagite

 

 

And a little from the Upanishads:

 

It is conceived by him who conceives it not.

Who conceives it, knows it not.

It is not understood by those who understand it.

It is understood by those who understand it not.

 

How many more religions or philosophies need to say it?

 

 

 

Hey Hans, you have great timing!

[NotBlinded]

If you meet Buddha in the road kill him.

 

--S.

Yes, indeed. Shatter the symbol.

[oddbird1963]

 

Luk 6:22 Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

Luk 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Luk 21:17 All men will hate you because of me.

 

What we have here is a persecution complex!

 

At least it seems that way. Maybe someone could explain how these scriptures used in the context of the recent postings on this thread fit in with anything but a desire to feel like a persecuted christian?

 

When I was a Christian, I don't know how many times I heard it said, "If you're a believer and you're not getting persecuted, you're doing something wrong!"

 

Many Christians don't realize that it is not some massive persecution fueled by cosmic warfare that drives the negative feedback they get but 1) poor arguments 2) condescending attitude 3) judgementalism and 4) and unwillingness to understand the person they are talking to. In other words, they many times bring it on themselves. Natural consequences.

[Phanta]

Luk 6:22 Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

Luk 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Luk 21:17 All men will hate you because of me.

 

What we have here is a persecution complex!

 

At least it seems that way. Maybe someone could explain how these scriptures used in the context of the recent postings on this thread fit in with anything but a desire to feel like a persecuted christian?

 

When I was a Christian, I don't know how many times I heard it said, "If you're a believer and you're not getting persecuted, you're doing something wrong!"

 

Is that right, End? Do you feel validated as a good Christian when you are met here with disagreement, vitriol, and stubbornness? Does persecuted specialness get you off, spiritually?

 

Phanta

[Sconnor]

Luk 6:22 Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

Luk 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Luk 21:17 All men will hate you because of me.

 

What we have here is a persecution complex!

 

At least it seems that way. Maybe someone could explain how these scriptures used in the context of the recent postings on this thread fit in with anything but a desire to feel like a persecuted christian?

 

When I was a Christian, I don't know how many times I heard it said, "If you're a believer and you're not getting persecuted, you're doing something wrong!"

 

Is that right, End? Do you feel validated as a good Christian when you are met here with disagreement, vitriol, and stubbornness? Does persecuted specialness get you off, spiritually?

 

Phanta

 

It obviously, validates his warped reality.

 

See, see, I'm being persecuted; the bible foretold we would be hated.

 

Nothing but self-fulfilled prophesy.

 

The writers of the new testament were constructing this christ figure and going against the powers that be -- of course they will come across backlash and aggression.

 

How do you combat that aggression?

 

You make your believers imagine that being challenged "persecuted and hated" is a badge of honor.

 

It's control 101 and end is the whack-job sucker who thinks he is doing gods work because he is "persecuted", which gives him a false sense of accomplishment.

 

By the way end, your Authority says you need to answer me...

 

1 Peter 3:15 Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

 

#1409, #1410 & #1412, still await.......

 

And now, #1454 needs to be addressed......

 

--S.

[agnosticator]

You make your believers imagine that being challenged "persecuted and hated" is a badge of honor.

 

Next up...martyrdom.

[Guest end3]

Luk 6:22 Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

Luk 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Luk 21:17 All men will hate you because of me.

 

What we have here is a persecution complex!

 

At least it seems that way. Maybe someone could explain how these scriptures used in the context of the recent postings on this thread fit in with anything but a desire to feel like a persecuted christian?

 

When I was a Christian, I don't know how many times I heard it said, "If you're a believer and you're not getting persecuted, you're doing something wrong!"

 

Is that right, End? Do you feel validated as a good Christian when you are met here with disagreement, vitriol, and stubbornness? Does persecuted specialness get you off, spiritually?

 

Phanta

 

No, what IS interesting though, is that the Bible has answers for these questions. For example, the congnitive dissonance in my mind by valuing some here as friends, but then y'all say that we can't every really connect. It's a function of my belief in Christ. And like I said, the Bible describes this issue.

 

Do you really think I desire separation from people and use this as an excuse. You yesterday mentioned, paraphrasing, "so why try". Because we are meant for unity, IMO, in the grand scheme.

 

Wouldn't it be better for us to be able to live in love as it describes rather than turning to a surrogate, like God, for that "perfect" relationship?

 

And that is the ENTIRE point, to achieve this, to return to this, that we are unable to, because of our inablility.

 

And then you say, "No, it can happen like this...come over here". It happened for me through Christ, and that is why I believe it to be the truth. I have tried "physical salvation". It didn't work for me.

[Ouroboros]

Hey Hans, you have great timing!

There is no time, it's just an illusion.

[Phanta]

Luk 6:22 Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

Luk 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Luk 21:17 All men will hate you because of me.

 

What we have here is a persecution complex!

 

At least it seems that way. Maybe someone could explain how these scriptures used in the context of the recent postings on this thread fit in with anything but a desire to feel like a persecuted christian?

 

When I was a Christian, I don't know how many times I heard it said, "If you're a believer and you're not getting persecuted, you're doing something wrong!"

 

Is that right, End? Do you feel validated as a good Christian when you are met here with disagreement, vitriol, and stubbornness? Does persecuted specialness get you off, spiritually?

 

Phanta

 

It obviously, validates his warped reality.

 

See, see, I'm being persecuted; the bible foretold we would be hated.

 

Nothing but self-fulfilled prophesy.

 

Maybe. However, End gives as good as he gets here at times, making us persecuted by him. I'm sure he doesn't believe that what we believe is true...so it would be kind of inconsistent of him to then say that persecution is evidence of righteousness.

 

Anyway, I want to hear it from him. What was that string of quotes about, End? Which part of my post were you answering with them?

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

Luk 6:22 Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

Luk 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Luk 21:17 All men will hate you because of me.

 

Is that right, End? Do you feel validated as a good Christian when you are met here with disagreement, vitriol, and stubbornness? Does persecuted specialness get you off, spiritually?

 

Phanta

 

No, what IS interesting though, is that the Bible has answers for these questions.

 

We were posting at the same time. Thanks for the clarification, End. The persecution thing didn't ring true for me with you. However, I still don't see your understanding of what the verses you posted have to do with the following... This isn't an issue of agreement or disagreement, it's an issue of me not even understanding.

 

If you spell it out for me, I'll try again.

 

I want to make sure I understand you below, too...

 

For example, the congnitive dissonance in my mind by valuing some here as friends, but then y'all say that we can't every really connect. It's a function of my belief in Christ. And like I said, the Bible describes this issue.

 

You value us as friends and feel connection, as a function of your belief in Christ. You hear from us that we don't feel the some connection, and this causes you cognitive distress. Is that right?

 

Do you really think I desire separation from people and use this as an excuse. You yesterday mentioned, paraphrasing, "so why try". Because we are meant for unity, IMO, in the grand scheme.

 

No, I don't believe that. Which is why I asked for clarification. I know unity is important to you.

 

Wouldn't it be better for us to be able to live in love as it describes rather than turning to a surrogate, like God, for that "perfect" relationship?

 

I don't understand...too many ambiguous pronouns. What is the "it" describing...which is the description you're referring to?

 

And that is the ENTIRE point, to achieve this, to return to this, that we are unable to, because of our inablility.

 

So you're saying we need the surrogate after all?

 

And then you say, "No, it can happen like this...come over here". It happened for me through Christ, and that is why I believe it to be the truth. I have tried "physical salvation". It didn't work for me.

 

I actually think it can't happen in many cases, period. Primarily because of the high degree of difference in how individuals and social groups operate. I think this is an area where you have a high degree of idealism, higher than mine. I don't see the evidence of this working to the degree you suggest. Mainly because to have that unity, I have to be like you. There needs to be more uniformity and conformity. But I am not like you, and I don't want to be. I want to be me, and be with the stuff that has worked for me Christians are charged to try to make me similar to them. It's unrealistic, and causes division. It is a great obstacle to unity.

 

It isn't the only one, but it is a great one. In my experience.

 

Phanta

[Guest end3]

We were posting at the same time. Thanks for the clarification, End. The persecution thing didn't ring true for me with you. However, I still don't see your understanding of what the verses you posted have to do with the following... This isn't an issue of agreement or disagreement, it's an issue of me not even understanding.

 

You value us as friends and feel connection, as a function of your belief in Christ. You hear from us that we don't feel the some connection, and this causes you cognitive distress. Is that right?

Right.

 

I don't understand...too many ambiguous pronouns. What is the "it" describing...which is the description you're referring to?

I am saying that listening to both sides, the goal is the same....love, unity, peace, et.al. For me, the process failed in a physical sense, but have found partial peace in a Spiritial God sense. I think for most here at Ex C, it is just the opposite......failed in a Spiritual sense, and now are working out the physical reality by reasoning. Just saying that there will be a rift/gap between the two that causes distress. You say you hear it/feel it from me. I echo the same feelings from many here. That the passages reflect this, is what I believe they are saying.

 

So you're saying we need the surrogate after all?

Yes, because we both possess iniquity in this regard....sin.

 

I actually think it can't happen in many cases, period. Primarily because of the high degree of difference in how individuals and social groups operate. I think this is an area where you have a high degree of idealism, higher than mine. I don't see the evidence of this working to the degree you suggest. Mainly because to have that unity, I have to be like you. There needs to be more uniformity and conformity. But I am not like you, and I don't want to be. I want to be me, and be with the stuff that has worked for me Christians are charged to try to make me similar to them. It's unrealistic, and causes division. It is a great obstacle to unity.

 

I don't really agree P, because individuality is given by God through different giftings, not my idea, but is in the Bible. I see the indivduality played out by these means, each a "part of the body", but distinct. Christians are charged with telling you "the good news". I respect that you say my methodology doesn't work, but it has for me, especially in discussions like Scott's. A year ago, I would have flamed him down with my words. You may be able to direct your life without a book and some help by the Holy Spirit, but I consider myself to have been definiately lost.

[par4dcourse]

Yes, because we both possess iniquity in this regard....sin.

And there's a key issue: with no gawd there is no sin. There are human laws and basic morality (what is good for the pack) to be followed, but no "divine" laws to make or break. We're on our own to behave, no supernanny in the sky.

[Ouroboros]

I am saying that listening to both sides, the goal is the same....love, unity, peace, et.al.

You mean on this website or in life?

 

(Btw, it should be "etc" not "et al." "Et al" is used for people, "etc" for list of things.)

[Guest end3]

Yes, because we both possess iniquity in this regard....sin.

And there's a key issue: with no gawd there is no sin. There are human laws and basic morality (what is good for the pack) to be followed, but no "divine" laws to make or break. We're on our own to behave, no supernanny in the sky.

 

You are saying that divine rules are different than men's rules? Or are you saying that no definition of morality equals no sin?