Question For Christians About Biblical Inerrancy

[Guest end3]

Ok, then. You want to change the word you use.

Eternal for me has more of a ring towards the length of universal existance. I can't imagine something outside of time really. With that, I think I demonstrated that if morality leads to an extension of the physical existance of mankind, then morality plays a role in the quantity of disturbance of the universe, however minute it may be.

 

Now remember, it was you who used the word eternal.

Ms Deva used it initially. I was trying to demonstrate that choices have consequences down the road for others.

 

But All I need to do is ask you this, for a group of ex-christians, most of whom don't believe in such a realm of god, how can you demonstrate that a behavior exhibited on earth has supernatural consequences?

 

Can't other than faith in some supernatural.

 

Thank you in advance for your consideration of this question.

You are welcome.

[Guest end3]

End,

 

Is lying immoral and with eternal consequences?

I think so.

 

Does allowing someone to be killed immoral?

I would think that to be circumstantial.

 

How about if you have to lie to stop a murderer from killing someone? Is it still immoral to lie?

Yes, I think it is still immoral.

 

 

How did I score?

[Ouroboros]

End,

 

Is lying immoral and with eternal consequences?

I think so.

 

Does allowing someone to be killed immoral?

I would think that to be circumstantial.

 

How about if you have to lie to stop a murderer from killing someone? Is it still immoral to lie?

Yes, I think it is still immoral.

 

 

How did I score?

So that means that people better pray that they never are put in that kind of dilemma where they have to choose which immoral act they have to commit. But if they find themselves in that situation anyway, they will suffer eternal consequences regardless of their choice.

[Deva]

Ms Deva used it initially. I was trying to demonstrate that choices have consequences down the road for others.

 

True End, I did use it first, but then you said:

 

And yes, sin against God has eternal consequences. Doesn't sin against men?

 

So you did admit that sin against God has eternal consequences. I say yes, that is in line with the Christian idea of sin being something beyond mere morality, but an eternal offense against God.

 

To your second question I answer No, considering God is out of the picture. Sin is a violation of the laws of God and therefore has eternal consequences for the Christian. It is different than a violation of morality.

 

I have no idea why you are trying to argue this fact.

[Guest end3]

End,

 

Is lying immoral and with eternal consequences?

I think so.

 

Does allowing someone to be killed immoral?

I would think that to be circumstantial.

 

How about if you have to lie to stop a murderer from killing someone? Is it still immoral to lie?

Yes, I think it is still immoral.

 

 

How did I score?

So that means that people better pray that they never are put in that kind of dilemma where they have to choose which immoral act they have to commit. But if they find themselves in that situation anyway, they will suffer eternal consequences regardless of their choice.

Jesus is the judge, IMO.

[Sconnor]

Jesus is the judge, IMO.

 

How do you know?

 

By the way end, your Authority says you need to answer me...

 

1 Peter 3:15 Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

 

#1409, #1410 & #1412, still await.......

 

And now, #1454 needs to be addressed......

 

 

--S.

[Ouroboros]

Jesus is the judge, IMO.

So you're saying that in a case of moral conflict, Jesus will weigh different moral standards against each other for which one is the lesser or greater immoral act, and he will also judge your intentions while doing the act?

[Guest end3]

Jesus is the judge, IMO.

So you're saying that in a case of moral conflict, Jesus will weigh different moral standards against each other for which one is the lesser or greater immoral act, and he will also judge your intentions while doing the act?

 

I am saying that we mature in Spiritual discernment, and that misinterpretation/selection of the best answer is 1) covered by forgiveness through Christ, and 2) will ultimately be judged by Christ. We practise in faith. In other words, I don't think any of us have the wisdom to discern the true answer as God would. A body of people perhaps. do you think that is why they seat 12 jurors?

[Ouroboros]

I am saying that we mature in Spiritual discernment, and that misinterpretation/selection of the best answer is 1) covered by forgiveness through Christ, and 2) will ultimately be judged by Christ. We practise in faith. In other words, I don't think any of us have the wisdom to discern the true answer as God would. A body of people perhaps. do you think that is why they seat 12 jurors?

So basically there are immoral acts that will not have eternal consequences? If Jesus forgives you, you will not suffer your choice.

[Guest end3]

Jesus is the judge, IMO.

 

How do you know?

 

By the way end, your Authority says you need to answer me...

 

1 Peter 3:15 Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

 

#1409, #1410 & #1412, still await.......

 

And now, #1454 needs to be addressed......

 

 

--S.

 

1Pe 3:16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

[Guest end3]

I am saying that we mature in Spiritual discernment, and that misinterpretation/selection of the best answer is 1) covered by forgiveness through Christ, and 2) will ultimately be judged by Christ. We practise in faith. In other words, I don't think any of us have the wisdom to discern the true answer as God would. A body of people perhaps. do you think that is why they seat 12 jurors?

So basically there are immoral acts that will not have eternal consequences? If Jesus forgives you, you will not suffer your choice.

 

No, I don't think so Hans...there is the White Throne Judgement, is there not? All men will go through.

[Ouroboros]

No, I don't think so Hans...there is the White Throne Judgement, is there not? All men will go through.

So then we're just back at square one. If you have to lie to save someone from being killed, you are in a dilemma which will give you eternal consequences.

[Guest end3]

No, I don't think so Hans...there is the White Throne Judgement, is there not? All men will go through.

So then we're just back at square one. If you have to lie to save someone from being killed, you are in a dilemma which will give you eternal consequences.

 

What is your point Hans.

[bdp]

 

 

No, I don't think so Hans...there is the White Throne Judgement, is there not? All men will go through.

 

Not me.

[Ouroboros]

What is your point Hans.

That your view of morality is contradictory.

[Sconnor]

End,

 

1Pe 3:16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

 

 

Oh, I'm sure your conscience is crystal clear and innocent, because -- you know -- you live a good christian life and all, but I do NOT feel ashamed of ANYTHING, I've said to you -- nor could it be construed as slander; knowing EVERYTHING I've said to you is true.

 

But NONE of this matters. Your scriptural choice doesn't undermine my verse. Regardless, your Authority still commands you to answer me and you have to do so in a gentle and respectful manner. Chop; chop!

 

1 Peter 3:15 Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

 

You do believe what your god is telling you to do -- don't you end?

 

#1409, #1410 & #1412, still await.......

 

And now, #1454 needs to be addressed......

 

Waiting.................

 

--S.

[Antlerman]

It seems as if your system of belief has hardened you to hearing the beliefs of others to the point that you don't even know what those beliefs are. Are those mystical beliefs in a living Spirit of Christ so tenuous as to evaporate away by just getting to know the hearts and minds of people who do not believe the same as you?

Give the man a cigar. To me, what I see is a life-time of indoctrination running smack up against a mystical experience, but finding it difficult to take it to the next level, taking off those training wheels. "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak".

 

I can't imagine something outside of time really.

I can, and I don't need to imagine it. You are still seeing things in a linear progression, including God.

 

I am saying that we mature in Spiritual discernment,

That is correct. We do. I would say my maturity is considerably beyond what it was when I thought in linear terms about the nature of God and Spirit. The higher it goes, the more inclusive. Not the opposite.

 

Remember End, the mythical Fall from God resulted in Man separated from God, from man, and from nature. Yet in the myth, it has reconciliation with God bringing man together with God, Man, and nature a direct result of that unity, of that transcendence of their nature into oneness with the Divine. So the closer to God, the less the division.

 

Starting to see it yet? What does your spirit tell you?

 

You have not answered that. Have you at least asked it of yourself on that level?

[Guest end3]

It seems as if your system of belief has hardened you to hearing the beliefs of others to the point that you don't even know what those beliefs are. Are those mystical beliefs in a living Spirit of Christ so tenuous as to evaporate away by just getting to know the hearts and minds of people who do not believe the same as you?

Give the man a cigar. To me, what I see is a life-time of indoctrination running smack up against a mystical experience, but finding it difficult to take it to the next level, taking off those training wheels. "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak".

 

I can't imagine something outside of time really.

I can, and I don't need to imagine it. You are still seeing things in a linear progression, including God.

 

I am saying that we mature in Spiritual discernment,

That is correct. We do. I would say my maturity is considerably beyond what it was when I thought in linear terms about the nature of God and Spirit. The higher it goes, the more inclusive. Not the opposite.

 

Remember End, the mythical Fall from God resulted in Man separated from God, from man, and from nature. Yet in the myth, it has reconciliation with God bringing man together with God, Man, and nature a direct result of that unity, of that transcendence of their nature into oneness with the Divine. So the closer to God, the less the division.

 

Starting to see it yet? What does your spirit tell you?

 

You have not answered that. Have you at least asked it of yourself on that level?

 

I am understanding you to believe that salvation for you is somewhat complete at this time? I just don't go with that scenerio for humanity as a whole....my body, my thoughts as evidence. I have discussed with you before about experiencing glimpses rather than fully living in that Glory. And secondly, the natural rift that is between us is imaginary for me or y'all? Did you notice that once I got back from my experience that I had written you one post that had (((Keith))) in it, understanding some unity with you through that immense Love, but then faded when we discussed details. That ((( ))) doesn't go away for the men that I had my experience with. We were unified in that it was Christ, and that was my T-experience as well. Not a separate God the Father nor something larger. You may believe it to be the fault of doctrine/symbolism, but I don't. These are our choices as adults.

[par4dcourse]

No, I don't think so Hans...there is the White Throne Judgement, is there not? All men will go through.

 

Not me.

Me neither. If my dirt nap is interupted, there'll be hell to pay (literally).

[Ouroboros]

White throne... how can something be white in a supernatural world? Is it supernaturally white? Superwhite? And a superthrone as well.

 

Nah. End. I don't believe in your fantasies. I don't believe there is some final judgment. It's your religion. Remember?

[Guest end3]

White throne... how can something be white in a supernatural world? Is it supernaturally white? Superwhite? And a superthrone as well.

 

Nah. End. I don't believe in your fantasies. I don't believe there is some final judgment. It's your religion. Remember?

 

No problem.

[Sconnor]

White throne... how can something be white in a supernatural world? Is it supernaturally white? Superwhite? And a superthrone as well.

 

Nah. End. I don't believe in your fantasies. I don't believe there is some final judgment. It's your religion. Remember?

 

No problem.

 

End,

 

I guess it's true -- you pick and choose scripture that supports your own idiosyncratic beliefs, while ignoring the other verses your Authority commanded you to abide by. Crazy -- huh?

 

 

Your Authority also says:

 

Colossians 4:5-6 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

 

Non-answers and dodging are NOT answers...

 

1 Peter 3:15 Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

 

#1409, #1410 & #1412, still await.......

 

And now, #1454 needs to be addressed......

 

Still waiting.................

 

--S.

[Ouroboros]

No problem.

That's the beauty of a secular society. We should be able to live together. We might not agree, but we should allow each other to have different views.

[Phanta]

We were posting at the same time. Thanks for the clarification, End. The persecution thing didn't ring true for me with you. However, I still don't see your understanding of what the verses you posted have to do with the following... This isn't an issue of agreement or disagreement, it's an issue of me not even understanding.

 

You value us as friends and feel connection, as a function of your belief in Christ. You hear from us that we don't feel the some connection, and this causes you cognitive distress. Is that right?

Right.

 

Why do you want to connect with us so bad, End? Your drive to connect isn't about Jesus at the end of the day, is it? Or Evangelism. Jesus is an attempted means to connection...but I reckon this is about your Dad.

 

I don't understand...too many ambiguous pronouns. What is the "it" describing...which is the description you're referring to?

I am saying that listening to both sides, the goal is the same....love, unity, peace, et.al. For me, the process failed in a physical sense, but have found partial peace in a Spiritial God sense. I think for most here at Ex C, it is just the opposite......failed in a Spiritual sense, and now are working out the physical reality by reasoning.

 

I'd agree, though there are some still connected spiritually through different spiritual concepts. I'm personally grounded in the physical.

 

Just saying that there will be a rift/gap between the two that causes distress. You say you hear it/feel it from me. I echo the same feelings from many here. That the passages reflect this, is what I believe they are saying.

 

How does that passage about being hated for faith say that? I don't get it. Hate is a pretty strong word, End. Do the Christians also hate in this scenario? They must, since they are being charged to love the enemy, instead of hating them, which is natural (if "hate" here really means feel distress at separation). It's an interesting statement, indeed, to counter a that process. Some will succeed, some will fail.

 

Just as some in the physical world do not hate the Christians for their difference. I know these people. Some people are really ok with difference and really have to be pressed to striking out. Then, like the Christian (because we're all human), there is a struggle with the natural urge to push away or strike back at antagonism, force, and criticism. Those who do not protect themselves in some way eventually become broken or assimilated. Eventually we have to protect ourselves. I see you take refuge in Jesus. That's fine. Those grounded in the physical also have a refuge, otherwise they would not be able to tolerate peaceably pressure and persecution by Christians and Muslims and others who ground themselves in the immaterial.

 

So you're saying we need the surrogate after all?

Yes, because we both possess iniquity in this regard....sin.

 

In my view, your surrogate is likely a fantasy. No offense met, just my assessment of the layout of the land. I do see the fantasy working for you. I can speculate that if we all believed the same fantasy, it could function as you suggest. This is why it is so important, functionally, for religions to "spread the good news" or to have strict laws that kill anyone who deviates (OT Jewish law) or to cover people up. Whatever can destroy their individuality and promote conformity. Conformity, order, these do yield peace. It is funny to me that Christians are so often referred to as sheep. Not an animal I aspire to be, personally. Suppression of variety. Variety, ambiguity after all...they're hard work. But in my view, this is what is real. I will die before I conform to a fantasy to make it easier on others to live as sheep. Surely, I will die. But if they can maintain their sheepness despite me being a goat, I'm ok with that.

 

I actually think it can't happen in many cases, period. Primarily because of the high degree of difference in how individuals and social groups operate. I think this is an area where you have a high degree of idealism, higher than mine. I don't see the evidence of this working to the degree you suggest. Mainly because to have that unity, I have to be like you. There needs to be more uniformity and conformity. But I am not like you, and I don't want to be. I want to be me, and be with the stuff that has worked for me Christians are charged to try to make me similar to them. It's unrealistic, and causes division. It is a great obstacle to unity.

 

I don't really agree P, because individuality is given by God through different giftings, not my idea, but is in the Bible. I see the indivduality played out by these means, each a "part of the body", but distinct. Christians are charged with telling you "the good news". I respect that you say my methodology doesn't work, but it has for me, especially in discussions like Scott's. A year ago, I would have flamed him down with my words. You may be able to direct your life without a book and some help by the Holy Spirit, but I consider myself to have been definiately lost.

 

I see that your methodology works for you. I wasn't talking about you, though. I was talking about whether the methodology helps the people you're selling it to. I believe it has helped you feel good about your response to Scott. In fact, if anything has had a chance of speaking to me about the "good news" of your faith, it is your transformation (not magic you performed on Scot that changed him) of not reacting to antagonism and challenge that isn't healthy for you. Not a spouting off Bible verses. Not you trying to solve my problems with "Christian advice". You witness best with your life, End.

 

I admire your control here. If I were clueless on how to do it myself, I'd look hard at your methodology. However, in this case, I grow like that, too! I practice and practice and practice tolerating the discomfort of attack; I practice and practice and practice self-control of response or non-response. And I mature. No Jesus. Successful methodology! Good news for me, too! Here ye, all!

 

By the way, my position is that you are not connecting deeply with anyone through overt evangelism. And indeed, I still hold to that. If you want real connection with people, you have to show you want to understand them and know them not merely as you know yourself or the world, but as they know themselves and the world. If you use that to "sell" to people, to change them, most will spot it a mile away and resent it, you, and your method, which will make it a failure in terms of spreading the news as "good". I stuck with you long enough to see love in your intent, End, but I still see your method as harmful to me. Not good for me. Loving intent is not enough to actually give love. I can want to cure your bleeding arm, but I'm not going to do it by rubbing it with a knife, no matter how great my intentions to love you with that knife.

 

I recommend you decide if you want to be an aggressive salesperson for Jesus or if you want half a chance at real connection with non-Christians and let your life stand as your witness for your Lord. You really can't have both.

 

Phanta

[Guest end3]

I appreciate the post P....in the course of debate over the last couple years, relationships have been made...some good, some pretty darn good, and some bad. Certainly it would be nice to have some of these realtionships develop into really good friendships, but the difference of belief certainly is a factor for further development.

 

I hear you saying in your analogy something like, "Doc, if you use that particular medicine, it will kill me". Is this close?