Moral Decay

[DarthXaos]

I find that ever since I deconverted, that I've become much less moral. Not just in the christian sense like with masturbation and sex but in most things that secular people would agree on as morals.

 

I find that the only reason to act morally is a fear of the consequences... meaning that there isn't much keeping me restrained from doing something unethical if I can get away with it and it will benefit me.

 

When I first deconverted I tried to be moral, if for no other reason than to prove to myself that Christianity is wrong and isn't needed to enforce morals.

 

But as time has marched on I find myself more and more what I was before I got "saved", probably what I truly have been all along.

 

Evil.

 

Just as evil as biblegod.

 

I'd like to THINK that if I had unlimited power I would use it more responsibly, but truth be told I probably WOULD eternally torment my enemies. I probably WOULD pick and choose what people got to be happy and who didn't based on arbitrary criteria.

 

I scare myself sometimes. I watched the Dark Knight and found myself thinking the Joker had a point. I thought the Joker's view of the world actually made sense.

 

The South Park episode where Cartman makes the kid eat his parents - I find myself wishing I had done that to some people back in middle school.

 

There are a very few people in the world who I would feel bad about hurting, even if I were to get ahead. Family and close friends. Most people, however, I view as expendable.

 

Even the people I love the most, if the temptation offered was high enough, for example is an evil supernatural being offered me eternal youth or mind control powers, but only if I were to sacrifice them, I would feel bad about it but the temptation of power would be too great.

 

I hate that about myself but know it is true.

[MikeyMac]

I find that ever since I deconverted, that I've become much less moral. Not just in the christian sense like with masturbation and sex but in most things that secular people would agree on as morals.

 

I find that the only reason to act morally is a fear of the consequences... meaning that there isn't much keeping me restrained from doing something unethical if I can get away with it and it will benefit me.

 

When I first deconverted I tried to be moral, if for no other reason than to prove to myself that Christianity is wrong and isn't needed to enforce morals.

 

But as time has marched on I find myself more and more what I was before I got "saved", probably what I truly have been all along.

 

Evil.

 

Just as evil as biblegod.

 

I'd like to THINK that if I had unlimited power I would use it more responsibly, but truth be told I probably WOULD eternally torment my enemies. I probably WOULD pick and choose what people got to be happy and who didn't based on arbitrary criteria.

 

I scare myself sometimes. I watched the Dark Knight and found myself thinking the Joker had a point. I thought the Joker's view of the world actually made sense.

 

The South Park episode where Cartman makes the kid eat his parents - I find myself wishing I had done that to some people back in middle school.

 

There are a very few people in the world who I would feel bad about hurting, even if I were to get ahead. Family and close friends. Most people, however, I view as expendable.

 

Even the people I love the most, if the temptation offered was high enough, for example is an evil supernatural being offered me eternal youth or mind control powers, but only if I were to sacrifice them, I would feel bad about it but the temptation of power would be too great.

 

I hate that about myself but know it is true.

 

I dont know if this has to do with you leaving Christianity, I feel that I want to be moral for the sake of being moral, not for fear of punishment, maybe for hope of reward, but it seems inwardly rewarding anyways. Perhaps you can change your inward views, your worldview and your principles?

 

It sounds as though you are only going through human emotions that need to be worked at, replaced, altered, resrained, etc., dosnt it sem that way to you?

[florduh]

Get some professional help. Really.

[PaulQ]

My own morality stems from how I would expect others to respect me and my own fundamental human rights. If there's someone I don't like, they don't become my "Enemy" anymore; I just have nothing to do with them. I expect them to treat me the same. It feels better to "Kick" someone out of my life than to imagine them forever tormented. In fact, the worst thing, in my opinion, is to keep thinking about a person I don't like, because at that point they've effectively taken over my life; they have a certain amount of control. It'll eat at you until you become that Joker in Batman. That's when they win, you lose.

 

You need to realize that morality is a double-edged sword. You will just as easily cut yourself with lack of morality as you would others. Keep that morality, focus on your own life, kick out the "Enemies," and you will find your own success...let them be the ones tormented with illusions of grandeur.

[GraphicsGuy]

Get some professional help. Really.

 

I tend to agree.

 

Plus I think you can choose to be "moral" or not. If you find yourself doing things you hate yourself for then I would guess that you have some repressive issues. Professional help is advised.

[Ouroboros]

I find that ever since I deconverted, that I've become much less moral. Not just in the christian sense like with masturbation and sex but in most things that secular people would agree on as morals.

 

I find that the only reason to act morally is a fear of the consequences... meaning that there isn't much keeping me restrained from doing something unethical if I can get away with it and it will benefit me.

...

 

That's very sad to hear. Most people I've talked to who left Christianity, and me included, have become better people. I'm really sorry to hear what you said. I think then it is better for you to stay Christian, seriously, because if it helps you to be a better person, then go for it.

[PaulQ]

That's very sad to hear. Most people I've talked to who left Christianity, and me included, have become better people. I'm really sorry to hear what you said. I think then it is better for you to stay Christian, seriously, because if it helps you to be a better person, then go for it.

 

That's the problem. Christianity did not help him to be a better person. It has done quite the opposite. Now that he realizes how absurd belief in god really is, he's left being the person that Christianity helped to shape him into without restraint.

 

Now you're recommending MORE poison?

 

It won't help; it will only make matters worse.

 

The guy needs to realize the damage that Christianity has done to his psyche, and discover his own personal meaning in life. He needs to watch that Batman movie to the end, where the people didn't do as the Joker predicted. Without religion, we can be a pretty empathetic species.

[Vigile]

If you are getting your moral inspiration from Batman and South Park I'd say you probably still have a bit of growing up to do. It doesn't sound like a well thought through philosophical position IOW.

[Trike]

In a non-religious person's case it takes more work to be "moral" than a religious person has to. Think about it, a Christian merely has to read their holy book or listen to an authority to know what morality is. But a non-religious person has to make those calls for themselves. This involves a bit of delving into the question of "why?" "Why is murder bad?" "Why is stealing bad?" etc, etc. In this process you may discover that certain things considered "moral" in certain religious traditions are needed and that there are things that are not covered in religious traditions that are moral.

 

It will not come naturally, certain parts might (such as, "I don't want people stealing from me so I won't steal") but on the whole one cannot merely set back and let knowledge of morality come to them. You must be proactive about it.

 

Might I suggest being a bit more proactive? From your post it seems that you may not be.

[DarthXaos]

I dont know if this has to do with you leaving Christianity, I feel that I want to be moral for the sake of being moral, not for fear of punishment, maybe for hope of reward, but it seems inwardly rewarding anyways. Perhaps you can change your inward views, your worldview and your principles?

 

If I was capable of changing my inward views at will I would have stayed Christian and not gone through the horribly painful process of deconversion.

 

Get some professional help. Really.

 

I've considered it, but don't know where to go to find some that is atheist, affordable, and works outside business hours so i don't have to miss work.

 

My own morality stems from how I would expect others to respect me and my own fundamental human rights. If there's someone I don't like, they don't become my "Enemy" anymore; I just have nothing to do with them.

 

That would be a great solution if there weren't people that you were FORCED to have something to do with in your life even when it is clear they will mistreat you. Even after you are finally free from them the damage is done and I can't help but have this burning desire for revenge. Even though on an intellectual level I understand they are only doing what their biology and life experience have programmed them to do, it doesn't help the fact that my biology and life experience have programmed me to want revenge for their causing Me to feel bad, which I (and I understand that this is not an objectively right view) view as a million times worse than doing it to anyone else.

 

In fact, the worst thing, in my opinion, is to keep thinking about a person I don't like, because at that point they've effectively taken over my life; they have a certain amount of control. It'll eat at you until you become that Joker in Batman. That's when they win, you lose.

 

How on earth do you control what you think about and feel?

 

Plus I think you can choose to be "moral" or not. If you find yourself doing things you hate yourself for then I would guess that you have some repressive issues. Professional help is advised.

 

I don't actually do any of these things. But I fantasise about them often.

 

The guy needs to realize the damage that Christianity has done to his psyche, and discover his own personal meaning in life. He needs to watch that Batman movie to the end, where the people didn't do as the Joker predicted. Without religion, we can be a pretty empathetic species.

 

I saw the end. I found that part to be the least believeable. (the part with the boats)

 

In a non-religious person's case it takes more work to be "moral" than a religious person has to. Think about it, a Christian merely has to read their holy book or listen to an authority to know what morality is. But a non-religious person has to make those calls for themselves. This involves a bit of delving into the question of "why?" "Why is murder bad?" "Why is stealing bad?" etc, etc. In this process you may discover that certain things considered "moral" in certain religious traditions are needed and that there are things that are not covered in religious traditions that are moral.

 

I have done a lot of thinking about it. The conclusion I have come to that it the reason not to steal is to avoid going to jail. Also I would not steal from someone I care about because it would make them feel bad. But if I was 100% guaranteed to not get caught, I would steal from someone I didn't care about, because it would make my life better, and the pain of someone who is irrelevant to me is outweighed by that.

 

See in my view people aren't equal. I am the most important, followed by close family and friends, followed by distant family and friends, followed by people i like, followed by the masses, followed by my enemies (those that have wronged me).

[florduh]

"I have done a lot of thinking about it. The conclusion I have come to that it the reason not to steal is to avoid going to jail. Also I would not steal from someone I care about because it would make them feel bad. But if I was 100% guaranteed to not get caught, I would steal from someone I didn't care about, because it would make my life better, and the pain of someone who is irrelevant to me is outweighed by that.

 

See in my view people aren't equal. I am the most important, followed by close family and friends, followed by distant family and friends, followed by people i like, followed by the masses, followed by my enemies (those that have wronged me)."

 

If you're not putting us on, you are a true sociopath, if not a psychopath. Drop everything and check yourself into a place you can get help. Otherwise, you line of thinking leads to severe depression, suicide or jail. If you end up in jail you will be treated as a criminal rather than a victim of mental illness.

[Vigile]

"I have done a lot of thinking about it. The conclusion I have come to that it the reason not to steal is to avoid going to jail. Also I would not steal from someone I care about because it would make them feel bad. But if I was 100% guaranteed to not get caught, I would steal from someone I didn't care about, because it would make my life better, and the pain of someone who is irrelevant to me is outweighed by that.

 

See in my view people aren't equal. I am the most important, followed by close family and friends, followed by distant family and friends, followed by people i like, followed by the masses, followed by my enemies (those that have wronged me)."

 

If you're not putting us on, you are a true sociopath, if not a psychopath. Drop everything and check yourself into a place you can get help. Otherwise, you line of thinking leads to severe depression, suicide or jail. If you end up in jail you will be treated as a criminal rather than a victim of mental illness.

 

I don't know Florida. He doesn't sound sociopathic to me. He wouldn't steal from a friend as he would feel bad and wouldn't steal from others because he is afraid of getting caught. That sounds fairly reasonable.

 

Hell, I'd steal from Microsoft or any other asshole corporation if I wouldn't get caught too. They steal from me afterall in the form of gaining public money via lobby efforts and via monopolistic business practices.

 

Now, if he said he'd murder and not feel bad about it then I'd wonder if his natural human empathy were in tact. I'm not sure categorizing people as enemies so easily is healthy but...

[Guest Marty]

I have done a lot of thinking about it. The conclusion I have come to that it the reason not to steal is to avoid going to jail. Also I would not steal from someone I care about because it would make them feel bad. But if I was 100% guaranteed to not get caught, I would steal from someone I didn't care about, because it would make my life better, and the pain of someone who is irrelevant to me is outweighed by that.

 

See in my view people aren't equal. I am the most important, followed by close family and friends, followed by distant family and friends, followed by people i like, followed by the masses, followed by my enemies (those that have wronged me).

 

This has to be a joke. He only has a few posts...I vote for a drive by xtian trying out the Atheist persona he/she is taught is "universal" among Atheists. But...

 

That being said, if what I quoted above is true, then you don't mind if people steal from you? Great! Kindly PM me your bank account number.

 

The golden rule is really all you need to consider. If you don't want people to steal from you, why is it OK to steal from them?

[Ouroboros]

That's the problem. Christianity did not help him to be a better person. It has done quite the opposite.

I think that's an assumption, not a fact. Maybe he doesn't have a moral guide because he has a genetic deficiency, or maybe it's because his parents didn't teach him moral behavior correctly. Maybe he was beaten, and maybe Christianity was in the mix too, but I'm not sure I can blame Christianity for making people monsters. I grew up in a Christian home. Became one at age of 7, by my own decision. I was Christian for 30 years. I came out of it, and I didn't have one single problem of behaving bad, rather the opposite. I found it to be easier to reason my way to why certain things were better behavior than others, based on natural principles.

 

Now that he realizes how absurd belief in god really is, he's left being the person that Christianity helped to shape him into without restraint.

It sounded like he tried already, that by leaving Christianity he started to act out and do bad things. There are a few people I've talked to over the years who say they would "kill everyone with an axe if they de-converted," because they claim they can't control their violent behavior unless a religious threat hangs over their heads. I'm not saying that this person is like that, but it kind of sounds like that. But if he'd be an axe-murderer without Jesus, then for all sake, stay with Jesus so we can be safe. I see a difference between a de-convert who say: "I don't know what is the right thing to do," and the one who says, "I can't control my behavior." The former we can talk to and explain how to view the world and get a good guide for life, and they'll be able to follow it, while the latter already have some understanding of what they should not do, but they can't stop themselves, which is more serious and even dangerous. I've met a few people like that in real life, and they just can't stop doing certain things, even if they know it's wrong and that it will put them in a lot of trouble later.

 

Now you're recommending MORE poison?

Obviously the poison benefits society in this situation. Yes, I agree, Christianity is a drug, but for those who the addiction is the only way for us to keep them under control from harming us, then I think it might be necessary to let them stay on the drug. We do use drugs today to calm people and control bi-polar behavior and so on, and every medicine in use is based on toxins of some form. No medication is based on safe stuff, but every one is based on very dangerous things, but we use it to subdue certain behaviors.

 

I'd vote anytime for a person to leave Christianity, but over the years I have learned that it's not something I just recommend for everyone to do. I'm more of a pragmatist than idealist. I believe that "what works, works" is better for most people than to force them into situations they can't handle. I don't believe in evangelizing atheism, while I do believe it would be better if everyone could be one, but I don't think they can.

 

It won't help; it will only make matters worse.

Okay. Well, then lets try to help him then, but the way he explained himself, it sounded like he doesn't have the ability to act moral based on reason. So maybe he needs another religion then? I don't know. But he claims he can't act normal without it. I don't think he's ready to leave the meme virus yet. He needs to think it over a bit more before he takes the leap.

 

 

The guy needs to realize the damage that Christianity has done to his psyche, and discover his own personal meaning in life. He needs to watch that Batman movie to the end, where the people didn't do as the Joker predicted. Without religion, we can be a pretty empathetic species.

I think he knows what Christianity has done to him, but that won't change his behavior or lack of restraints. That's just information. He needs to understand why he should act good.

 

A movie doesn't necessarily show true human behavior, since it's fiction, and seriously I believe in that situation it wouldn't have taken the prisoner ferry more than two seconds to blow the other one up. And secondly, even if people would act good like that, the first steps would not have been to vote, but to send someone down to at least try to defuse the bomb. It would be a safer bet to at least try to defuse the bomb and the chance of it blowing up from that, instead of waiting for the other boat making their decision. That part of the story was a bit of a stretch, unfortunately.

[xequar]

"I have done a lot of thinking about it. The conclusion I have come to that it the reason not to steal is to avoid going to jail. Also I would not steal from someone I care about because it would make them feel bad. But if I was 100% guaranteed to not get caught, I would steal from someone I didn't care about, because it would make my life better, and the pain of someone who is irrelevant to me is outweighed by that.

 

See in my view people aren't equal. I am the most important, followed by close family and friends, followed by distant family and friends, followed by people i like, followed by the masses, followed by my enemies (those that have wronged me)."

 

If you're not putting us on, you are a true sociopath, if not a psychopath. Drop everything and check yourself into a place you can get help. Otherwise, you line of thinking leads to severe depression, suicide or jail. If you end up in jail you will be treated as a criminal rather than a victim of mental illness.

Certainly one can see some sociopathic tendancies in the OP's post, but I don't necessarily think he's a sociopath.

 

My uneducated feeble brain is thinking that this might be a sort of "bounce" effect. Forgive me if I babble a bit, but just play along. As a Christian, the OP probably felt that same fear of hell and eternal punishment and whatnot that most of the rest of us did, and that was a driving force for him to be a moral person. If one thinks of morality as a continuum, Fear-based Obedience, which is what I would call the Christian version of morality, would certainly lie at one end of the continuum. When I say a "bounce," I mean that, now that the OP has deconverted, he's trying to find that more rational and realistic middle part of the continuum, where many of us here exist, that middle part where we're mostly good people and for no other reason than because we're actually good people. However, he overshot the mark, and now he's at the other end of the continuum, where one is not necessarily that moral at all. Perhaps given time and some good counseling, the OP can find that rational center where reality exists.

 

Think of it like this. When you're driving your car, you're existing in that rational middle. If you suddenly hit a patch of ice and the car pulls to one side hard, that's one end of the continuum. At that point, it's too easy to jerk the wheel, overcorrect, and then lose control of the car (the other end of the continuum). The OP sounds to me as though he jerked the wheel and lost it. Now the question is, can he regain control before he smashes the car?

[Ouroboros]

I have done a lot of thinking about it. The conclusion I have come to that it the reason not to steal is to avoid going to jail. Also I would not steal from someone I care about because it would make them feel bad. But if I was 100% guaranteed to not get caught, I would steal from someone I didn't care about, because it would make my life better, and the pain of someone who is irrelevant to me is outweighed by that.

 

See in my view people aren't equal. I am the most important, followed by close family and friends, followed by distant family and friends, followed by people i like, followed by the masses, followed by my enemies (those that have wronged me).

Of course we aren't equal, if we were we wouldn't progress as society. If everyone had the same car, and no one was interested in building a better one, we'd always have the same car forever. It's the difference that creates the energy and strive for a change. Greed is probably one of the strongest driving forces in our society. That's why people work so hard and risk heart attacks, because they want more. We all do. The question is, do you want to take the short cut with the high risk, or the long route with more potential benefits?

 

Look at it this way. Like you say, if you steal you risk jail. But look at it this way too, if you steal, people around you will change their behavior towards you. By stealing, you will change, and your friends will change, and in a few years you might not have the friends which would benefit you. Think about the long term goal of your life. Think about your future. The person you will be in 10 years from now, will be looking back at your own life and ask, "why the heck did I do that stupid thing? Now I'm paying for it, and hurting. No friends, no money, and the only thing I know how to do is to break in and steal stuff." Is that the person you want to become? Or maybe you really want a future with friends around you, who respect you and think highly of you, and family who love you, and a job you're happy about. Well, if that's what you want, you might consider your choices today, which would lead you to that goal.

[GraphicsGuy]

This has to be a joke. He only has a few posts...I vote for a drive by xtian trying out the Atheist persona he/she is taught is "universal" among Atheists.

 

I kind of agree. When I first read the OP it kind of seemed that way, but anything's possible I guess...

[noob]

This has to be a joke. He only has a few posts...I vote for a drive by xtian trying out the Atheist persona he/she is taught is "universal" among Atheists.

 

I kind of agree. When I first read the OP it kind of seemed that way, but anything's possible I guess...

 

I don't think it's a joke. I think it's my second husband . . .

 

Seriously, if it's not a joke, I hope he seeks professional help.

[hereticzero]

...

 

But as time has marched on I find myself more and more what I was before I got "saved", probably what I truly have been all along.

 

Evil.

 

...

You need Jesus ...

[PaulQ]

That would be a great solution if there weren't people that you were FORCED to have something to do with in your life even when it is clear they will mistreat you.

 

But you see, none of us are forced to be with anyone. If someone decides to mistreat me, I stand up, thank them for their honesty, tell them to have a nice life, and walk away. If they persist, I tell them to go play hide and go fuck yourself. That's the point at which I become quite caustic, and may even consider taking legal action against them. Yes, I have actually done this, and it can be highly effective. A lawyer isn't necessary to get a restraining order, and the police will happily carry their ass off to jail if they break it. All you need is evidence at that point, something easily obtained with even a cheap digital camera.

 

Even after you are finally free from them the damage is done and I can't help but have this burning desire for revenge.

 

But you see, you can stop them before any damage is done. The power is within yourself to stand up to whatever abuse is being dished out before it affects you. You effectively have two choices; stand up to it and defend your rights, or bend over and take it like a lamb.

 

Even though on an intellectual level I understand they are only doing what their biology and life experience have programmed them to do, it doesn't help the fact that my biology and life experience have programmed me to want revenge for their causing Me to feel bad, which I (and I understand that this is not an objectively right view) view as a million times worse than doing it to anyone else.

 

Fact is, you really only have yourself to be angry towards. Without knowing exactly what it is that has been done, it sounds as though you've allowed yourself to be fooled into believing that you have no control over your own life.

 

How on earth do you control what you think about and feel?

 

By maintaining control over my life.

 

The guy needs to realize the damage that Christianity has done to his psyche, and discover his own personal meaning in life. He needs to watch that Batman movie to the end, where the people didn't do as the Joker predicted. Without religion, we can be a pretty empathetic species.

 

I saw the end. I found that part to be the least believeable. (the part with the boats)

 

On the contrary; I thought it was the most believable. Not saying that any of the movie was believable; it wasn't, but that part was probably the closest the movie got to being believable.

 

I have done a lot of thinking about it. The conclusion I have come to that it the reason not to steal is to avoid going to jail. Also I would not steal from someone I care about because it would make them feel bad. But if I was 100% guaranteed to not get caught, I would steal from someone I didn't care about, because it would make my life better, and the pain of someone who is irrelevant to me is outweighed by that.

 

I don't steal simply because I do not allow myself to be in a position where I would need to steal anything. Again, control over my own life. Are material possessions going to make my life any better? On the contrary; they only add to the clutter in my life. To steal would be to become someone I would not like.

 

See in my view people aren't equal. I am the most important, followed by close family and friends, followed by distant family and friends, followed by people i like, followed by the masses, followed by my enemies (those that have wronged me).

 

In my view, the majority of people are quite foolish. You are included in that assessment. I say this because I have recognized the foolishness in chasing money and material possessions, to work at a job just for the sakes of being able to "Consume" what's being sold, and to live a life of toil and misery just for the hopes of having something when I'm really, really old. In the end, none of that will matter. Through atheism, I have discovered true enlightenment. That eternal life comes from living on in the memories of those who live after us, from the good that we do. Notable atheists such as Carl Sagan and George Carlin will live on in the work they had done. The only difference between them and you is the fact that they assumed complete control over their lives. Do you think that having a pension when they retired worried them? Was having all kinds of worldly possessions their motivating factor? I really don't think so.

[par4dcourse]

In my view, the majority of people are quite foolish. You are included in that assessment. I say this because I have recognized the foolishness in chasing money and material possessions, to work at a job just for the sakes of being able to "Consume" what's being sold, and to live a life of toil and misery just for the hopes of having something when I'm really, really old. In the end, none of that will matter. Through atheism, I have discovered true enlightenment. That eternal life comes from living on in the memories of those who live after us, from the good that we do. Notable atheists such as Carl Sagan and George Carlin will live on in the work they had done. The only difference between them and you is the fact that they assumed complete control over their lives. Do you think that having a pension when they retired worried them? Was having all kinds of worldly possessions their motivating factor? I really don't think so.

That was an extremely well written paragraph. I'm going to plagerize it unabashedly throughout my electronic kingdom.

[PaulQ]

That was an extremely well written paragraph. I'm going to plagerize it unabashedly throughout my electronic kingdom.

 

Thank you.

[Jedah]

Try eastern philosophy ( philosophical buddhism and taoism ) , really. It makes a ton more sense then anything Abrahaic religions have shitted out and best of all you can view them as pure ideologies without the belief in their supernatural claims and their moral code still works, because it focuses on changing yourself instead of bowing down and following orders without trying to understand why they exist.

 

 

You could also just watch Mushishi

[DarthXaos]

That being said, if what I quoted above is true, then you don't mind if people steal from you? Great! Kindly PM me your bank account number.

 

The golden rule is really all you need to consider. If you don't want people to steal from you, why is it OK to steal from them?

 

Why should I believe in the golden rule? Obviously I don't want people stealing from me, that would be a wrong done to the most important person in the universe, me.

 

I recognise that this is a "wrong" and "evil" view. It doesn't stop me from feeling it.

 

It sounded like he tried already, that by leaving Christianity he started to act out and do bad things. There are a few people I've talked to over the years who say they would "kill everyone with an axe if they de-converted," because they claim they can't control their violent behavior unless a religious threat hangs over their heads

 

The secular threat of being ass raped by Bubba is enough to control that. That and I don't have a desire to kill anyone with an axe, except my enemies, and I am restrained from doing so by the aforementioned secular threat of going to prison and being ass raped by Bubba. In fact fear of being ass raped by Bubba is a stronger motivator than fear of hell, hence why I masturbated all the time (even when I felt horribly guilty about it) when I was a Christian but never killed anyone.

 

Okay. Well, then lets try to help him then, but the way he explained himself, it sounded like he doesn't have the ability to act moral based on reason. So maybe he needs another religion then? I don't know. But he claims he can't act normal without it. I don't think he's ready to leave the meme virus yet. He needs to think it over a bit more before he takes the leap.

 

Too late. I already took the leap. I fear that I may very well be the type of person you describe.

 

My uneducated feeble brain is thinking that this might be a sort of "bounce" effect. Forgive me if I babble a bit, but just play along. As a Christian, the OP probably felt that same fear of hell and eternal punishment and whatnot that most of the rest of us did, and that was a driving force for him to be a moral person. If one thinks of morality as a continuum, Fear-based Obedience, which is what I would call the Christian version of morality, would certainly lie at one end of the continuum. When I say a "bounce," I mean that, now that the OP has deconverted, he's trying to find that more rational and realistic middle part of the continuum, where many of us here exist, that middle part where we're mostly good people and for no other reason than because we're actually good people. However, he overshot the mark, and now he's at the other end of the continuum, where one is not necessarily that moral at all. Perhaps given time and some good counseling, the OP can find that rational center where reality exists.

 

Fear based obedience is still where I'm at actually. It's just fear of secular consequences as opposed to metaphysical ones. But if I were hypothetically able to be beyond the secular consequences, for example if I had superpowers or a privileged position that made me above the law, I would have nothing to fear.

 

Look at it this way. Like you say, if you steal you risk jail. But look at it this way too, if you steal, people around you will change their behavior towards you.

 

Only if I was found out.

 

But you do make a point. There is more than just the fear of jail, there is the fear of the way I would be viewed by friends and loved ones. But again, it's only if they find out that that becomes a problem.

 

For example, if you were taken into a room, and presented with a button, and told in a way in which you could 100% know that the speaker was being truthful, that you would be rewarded for pressing that button with let's say, enough money to never have to work again and a ray beam you could point at the members of your preferred sex and make them instantly attracted to you, but 1000 children would die, none of whom you know or are known by anyone you know, and no one will ever find out, would you do it? I would.

 

But you see, none of us are forced to be with anyone.

 

Ever heard of school? As in before you're an adult school? That your parents and society force you to go to and spend time with people who you can't just walk away from?

 

Or how about a job that feels the only job that will take you, and your coworkers are a bunch of jackasses that treat you just as bad as the kids in middle school did.

 

I've been in both those situations.

 

You effectively have two choices; stand up to it and defend your rights, or bend over and take it like a lamb.

 

Or ineffectively TRY to defend yourself and THEN get punished for it.

 

Fact is, you really only have yourself to be angry towards. Without knowing exactly what it is that has been done, it sounds as though you've allowed yourself to be fooled into believing that you have no control over your own life.

 

Really? Did I have "control over my own life" when I was a child? Did I have "control over my own life" when I was a sperm cell and an egg cell combining genetics to make me who I am, in comination with all the experiences I had as a child that made me who I am? No.

 

In fact, it was realizing I had no control over my own life that led me AWAY from Christianity, as I couldn't abide a God that punished people for thoughts, feelings, and actions they had no control over.

 

If I had "control over my own life" I would have stopped feeling the way I did about sex and stayed Christian.

 

Are material possessions going to make my life any better? On the contrary; they only add to the clutter in my life.

 

Material possessions can be converted into pleasure. For example, a video game. By playing it I experience pleasure. Or more directly, one can buy pleasure by going to, for example, a strip club.

[Ouroboros]

Look at it this way. Like you say, if you steal you risk jail. But look at it this way too, if you steal, people around you will change their behavior towards you.

 

Only if I was found out.

 

But you do make a point. There is more than just the fear of jail, there is the fear of the way I would be viewed by friends and loved ones. But again, it's only if they find out that that becomes a problem.

 

For example, if you were taken into a room, and presented with a button, and told in a way in which you could 100% know that the speaker was being truthful, that you would be rewarded for pressing that button with let's say, enough money to never have to work again and a ray beam you could point at the members of your preferred sex and make them instantly attracted to you, but 1000 children would die, none of whom you know or are known by anyone you know, and no one will ever find out, would you do it? I would.

True, you can do that once or twice, but if you do it three times, four times, n-times, the chances of you being discovered increases probably exponentially. Your risk gets higher and higher and you're playing with your life. Basically, you don't value your future (potential) life enough to avoid the risks. Friends and family will find out sooner or later. If you steal from them, they might not notice the first time, but the second or third time they'll get suspicious, and then not much later they will have evidence and confront you, and you have ruined your relationship with them.

 

Someone brought up the golden rule, and you felt it really wasn't important as long as you got what you wanted, but consider that other people aren't just dumb and oblivious. If you treat them bad, they don't want be with you. There are other "paybacks" for what you do than just jail. People will respond.

 

And there's another "payback" which can happen, which is when you start acting a certain way and let you go down the path, it becomes a habit. Habitual behavior can be very hard to break. So if you start on the path of doing something bad, you most likely will get more and more used to doing this, and it will affect your attitude towards other people, and your attitude towards yourself, and you'll pay, but with an even more rundown emotional system. It's your life. You are in control of it. And it's your responsibility to make your life the way you want it to be. If you ruin it, don't blame someone else, but blame yourself for not caring for your own welfare. No one will make you successful. No one will make you happy. Only you can do it. And whatever you do now, you will pay for one way or another later in life.