Any Answers?

[Guest Hawklord61]

Hi all

Please read this post fully as part of it may seem un-sympathetic but there are a couple of legitimate questions i would like help with.

There are a large amount of people on these boards who seem to have rejected their faith due to multiple bad life experiences they've encountered over the years, even though many of them are not directly related to religion. e.g - Bad marriages, deaths of friends or loved ones, Cancer etc....

This has made them question Gods existence and all the baggage that goes with it, eventually leading to partial or full religious rejection.

Why are they putting the blame soley on their faith?

Bad things happen to people everyday, religious or non-religious thats just the way life is.

If an Atheist suffered the exact same experiences, could it cause a role reversal and actually give that person a reason to turn to God? (yes it could, i witnessed it personaly)

 

So now we end up with 2 distinctly opposite viewpoints ....

Christian :- "If there was a god he would not let this happen!"

 

"Atheist:- "Is all this happening because of the way i lived my life?"

 

Where's the middle ground here? It just seems as though both parties are seeking an answer/way out by blaming their faith/non faith

 

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks.

[Guest jenben]

Speaking personally, I did not leave xianity because of a traumatic experience, only my own journey in knowing what I believe and what makes sense. I don't believe bad things are a result of either a god or necessarily the way I live my life, of course there are natural consequences which are in my control. There is also just plain old odds. Sometimes they in your favor, sometimes they are not.

 

I think that some people lose faith in religion after a bad event because it begins their journey into reason, when they try and understand how such things could happen if there is a god.

[florduh]

My feeling is that most leave the faith because of thoughtful study of the Bible. This interest in delving deeper into the book that is the sole reason for Christianity to exist is spurred by things like tragedy, unanswered prayers, or merely a desire to have a deeper understand of their god. Of course, too much study of the book leads many to the rejection of it.

 

Christians lay the responsibility for everything that happens to them on their god. He is rewarding them, testing them, or punishing them - his ways are mysterious, after all. Atheists realize we live in a random universe, or in other words, shit happens. If we want something accomplished we must do it ourselves, just as the Christian must do if anything is to be accomplished at all.

[Guest Hawklord61]

My feeling is that most leave the faith because of thoughtful study of the Bible. This interest in delving deeper into the book that is the sole reason for Christianity to exist is spurred by things like tragedy, unanswered prayers, or merely a desire to have a deeper understand of their god. Of course, too much study of the book leads many to the rejection of it.

 

Christians lay the responsibility for everything that happens to them on their god. He is rewarding them, testing them, or punishing them - his ways are mysterious, after all. Atheists realize we live in a random universe, or in other words, shit happens. If we want something accomplished we must do it ourselves, just as the Christian must do if anything is to be accomplished at all.

 

 

Once again Florduh i bow to your wisdom. I wish i thought of it that way instead of wearing my fingertips down to my knuckles on this keyboard.

I could have just said "why does shit happen?" lol

 

cheers to all for your replies.

[agnosticator]

Hi Hawklord61,

 

It seems to me that anyone who decides either way without an honest examination of the bible, hasn't much of a leg to stand on for or against christianity. If and when another tragedy or bad experience happens, they can flip the other way. Emotions and disappointments aren't enough to effect a permanent change.

 

The atheist response to tragedy "it happened because of the way I lived my life", is really a christian belief about morality being christian based. The atheist is believed to be immoral or lacking the ability to do what is decent because he is without religion. So, this really is not the opposite viewpoint.

Atheists may buy into this christian belief because our society shoves it down our throats from infancy to the grave. Blaming their lack of faith for tragedy directed at them is all too christian.

 

Their can be multiple reasons for an atheist to convert. Curiosity, "everybody's doing it, so maybe there's something to it?", reaching out for support from despair or desparation, etc.

 

I was a christian from childhood, and stopped believing after years of study. The bad things that happened helped to awaken me from my indoctrinated stupor. I wanted to to get closer to god. Instead, the bible showed me it was a godless collection of writings from arrogant, senile men.

[GraphicsGuy]

Extreme changes in life have to do with a change of mindset. You have to find in life what works for YOU.

 

Religion does not work for ME. It drives me batshit insane. I'm an all or nothing kind of person and religion does not work for me at all. Even my "spirituality" is extremely minor...I basically ignore it.

 

My story is the exact polar opposite to a lot of people who end up in religion. They say their life was a mess and Jesus turned it around.

 

My life was a mess with Jesus. So I took control and made it better.

 

Either way it's a mindset change. "This way of living isn't working. I'm sick of it and am going to do something about it."

 

The major problem with religion is the extremism of it. Same actually goes for atheism. Extremists live in both camps.

[florduh]

The major problem with religion is the extremism of it. Same actually goes for atheism. Extremists live in both camps.

 

You had better repent! If you don't convert to Atheism, you'll die and go to Heaven. I could be wrong, but what if I'm right?????

[pitchu]

Welcome to the forums, Hawklord61.

 

Since you're inquiring about a specific issue and this "Testimonies" forum is designed for ex-christians to tell their stories, I'm moving this thread to "General Theological ..."

[mahjong]

My answer to everything tonight has something to do with sticking it somewhere.

 

I don't believe because it didn't work for me.

 

I had as many prayers not answered when I prayed as I do when I don't pray.

 

And if that doesn't make sense, well who cares?

 

I still think we should value the bible as much as we value the Secret.

 

Don't toy with me, I'm in no fucking mood...

[OpheliaGinger]

The atheist response to tragedy "it happened because of the way I lived my life", is really a christian belief about morality being christian based. The atheist is believed to be immoral or lacking the ability to do what is decent because he is without religion. So, this really is not the opposite viewpoint.

Atheists may buy into this christian belief because our society shoves it down our throats from infancy to the grave. Blaming their lack of faith for tragedy directed at them is all too christian.

 

Even as an atheist one can still say that it was their lifestyle that lead to their problems. Let's say I were a chronic alcoholic all of my life and then my liver began to fail; my previous actions may very well have resulted in my liver issues.

 

It wasn't a tragedy that caused me to question a god--in fact, I don't even know exactly what--I think it was the culmination of the tiny notches that eventually lead to me seeing religion as false.

[RubyHypatia]

I just stopped going to church, lost interest. Without the weekly brainwashing sessions, I started to think more logically about Biblical teachings. I studied the Bible and ancient history that gave rise to it. It was interesting to learn about the religions that predate both the Hebrew and Christian religions, and how those earlier religions influenced what ended up in the Bible. I've learned so much more about the Bible in the last few years than in all the time sitting in church or going to Bible college. And this led to my de-conversion.

[youngster84]

...This has made them question Gods existence and all the baggage that goes with it, eventually leading to partial or full religious rejection.

Why are they putting the blame soley on their faith?

In fact bad life experiences also lead me to question God, but I do not blame my faith for it, I blame the persons that made me believe that suffering is something to be enjoyed for the sake of a bloody preacher that was killed two thousand years ago.

 

Religion first was used by my parents to justify and execute their sadistic repulsive need. While my own faith served me as a coping strategy to survive and overtune all the lies and to explain my own self abondenment.

When I then left "home" and was financially indenpendent, I was for the first time really ABLE to decide weather it's crap or not to believe.

I then came to the conclusion that my "God" either doesn't exist and my relationship with Jesus was nothing but a coping strategy to avoid blaming my parents, or that God is simply a sadist that likes to watch innocent children getting raped.

 

I do not blame religion, I blame the people that teach it, especially if teaching it to their children.

Religion was used on me as a method, a tool, to control and brake my will, to punish and to confuse me. I blame my parents and persons that promote religion. But I also was a religious teacher myself for a short time. I deeply regret it.

 

Christian :- "If there was a god he would not let this happen!"

Yes, If there would be a loving god, he would not let innocent children suffer. But someone who is watching a child getting raped and is doing nothing although he could potentially prevent it, can not claim to love this child at the same time. Such a god would be a sadist.

Some people prefer to believe in the "almighty sadist" and call him "the loving father in heaven". But I think that this figure does only exist in the the head of people.

 

"Atheist:- "Is all this happening because of the way i lived my life?"

Where's the middle ground here? It just seems as though both parties are seeking an answer/way out by blaming their faith/non faith

Of course you can blame yourself for your non-faith. But that's actually what christians are doing and not atheists, I think.

Christians say you are a sinner. If you don't believe, it's your fault. If you reject the salvation you will be punished. If you don't forgive, you will not be forgiven. If you don't repent, you will not be saved.

Christianity is blaming the innocent newborn always by default, by putting the label "sinner" on you.

I can only say that growing up in my christian home was hell, although I had to believe of beeing already in heaven. While I write it down, I can hardly believe it myself, but we were really told that heaven already begins when you let christ in your heart. So I had to feel happy, although there was no reason. Teaching such to a child is mental torture.

[Deva]

The Christianity I was raised in said that if bad events happened to you then chances are you were not right with God. If you had a proper relationship with Christ and you were saved, then nothing much bad could happen, or if it did, you would not suffer so much because God was with you. The expectation was raised in my mind in childhood that this was the truth. Later, I found out that it was a lie. I was lied to.

 

The fact that I was lied to was not the only reason I left. There are a number of attitudes in Christianity about how a person should properly live their life that did not correspond to my path. There were expectations -- a good Christian should get married and have children, a good Christian should not divorce, a good Christian must have a particular lifestyle which turned out to be damaging for me.

 

Then there was the creation/evolution controversy that just was completely idiotic to me. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

[PIRACYs LADY]

Hi all

Please read this post fully as part of it may seem un-sympathetic but there are a couple of legitimate questions i would like help with.

There are a large amount of people on these boards who seem to have rejected their faith due to multiple bad life experiences they've encountered over the years, even though many of them are not directly related to religion. e.g - Bad marriages, deaths of friends or loved ones, Cancer etc....

This has made them question Gods existence and all the baggage that goes with it, eventually leading to partial or full religious rejection.

Why are they putting the blame soley on their faith?

Bad things happen to people everyday, religious or non-religious thats just the way life is.

If an Atheist suffered the exact same experiences, could it cause a role reversal and actually give that person a reason to turn to God? (yes it could, i witnessed it personaly)

 

So now we end up with 2 distinctly opposite viewpoints ....

Christian :- "If there was a god he would not let this happen!"

 

"Atheist:- "Is all this happening because of the way i lived my life?"

 

Where's the middle ground here? It just seems as though both parties are seeking an answer/way out by blaming their faith/non faith

 

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks.

Was there ever an actual poll done on if bad things happen to people everyday,religious or none religious... Was there ever a talley? Bad things that happen to religious people = 2212121212121221 bad things that happen to non religious people =21212121211111212 I wonder which one it would be.

[Guest kcdad]

Hi Hawklord61,

 

It seems to me that anyone who decides either way without an honest examination of the bible, hasn't much of a leg to stand on for or against christianity. If and when another tragedy or bad experience happens, they can flip the other way. Emotions and disappointments aren't enough to effect a permanent change.

 

Instead, the bible showed me it was a godless collection of writings from arrogant, senile men.

 

 

You go a long way from thoughtful study to "godless collection"...

 

I don't have any issue with someone rejecting The Bible as "Word of God" etc... however, to dismiss their experiences as "arrogance and senility" is rather egocentric and arrogant on your part... don' t you think?

 

I think your issue is with the editors, compilers, and commentators, not the authors... but that is for you to resolve.

 

I find the Bible an inspiring, and informative look at a stateless people trying to find an identity... not The History, but a history.

[Deva]

I find the Bible an inspiring, and informative look at a stateless people trying to find an identity... not The History, but a history.

 

I would be interested in how you find it to be inspiring. As far as history goes, its not corroborated by modern scholarship. It purports to be a history. but quite a lot of it has been shown to be mythology and outright fiction.

[Guest kcdad]

I find the Bible an inspiring, and informative look at a stateless people trying to find an identity... not The History, but a history.

 

I would be interested in how you find it to be inspiring. As far as history goes, its not corroborated by modern scholarship. It purports to be a history. but quite a lot of it has been shown to be mythology and outright fiction.

 

Well, duh. The same can be said for OUR history... In America we tell all kinds of lies about The Revolution, The War of 1812, The Civil War, The industrial revolution and the wonder of Capitalism. We talk about the preservation of freedom in the Philippines and Cuba... our world interests in WW1 and WW2. Who ever claimed History had to be true or accurate?

 

 

It is about what a society wants to remember and what it wants to forget.

 

I find it inspiring how a nomadic Semite people have forged this identity that has survived all they have survived and still maintained their identity... can you name another culture that has done that?

 

I find it inspiring how they created a workable communist society when are all equal and share equally and yet initiative and genus were rewarded.

 

I find it inspiring how this culture resisted the Hellenization and alienation of their cultural beliefs and practices and how some were willing to die to resist. The whole Kingdom of God idea as opposed to the Kingdom of Rome or Babylon or Assyria... beautiful.

[hereticzero]

Hi Hawklord61,

 

It seems to me that anyone who decides either way without an honest examination of the bible, hasn't much of a leg to stand on for or against christianity. If and when another tragedy or bad experience happens, they can flip the other way. Emotions and disappointments aren't enough to effect a permanent change.

 

Instead, the bible showed me it was a godless collection of writings from arrogant, senile men.

 

 

You go a long way from thoughtful study to "godless collection"...

 

I don't have any issue with someone rejecting The Bible as "Word of God" etc... however, to dismiss their experiences as "arrogance and senility" is rather egocentric and arrogant on your part... don' t you think?

 

I think your issue is with the editors, compilers, and commentators, not the authors... but that is for you to resolve.

 

I find the Bible an inspiring, and informative look at a stateless people trying to find an identity... not The History, but a history.

The babble is the greatest work of fiction ever written.

Are you struggling to let go of Christian fiction in your life? It is rather arrogant on your part to defend a classical work of fiction to portray it as real and true. Is there a miracle that is true? How do you prove the stories are true when Christians cannot even agree whether or not the stories actually happened? Are you a member of the one and only true church?

[hereticzero]

I find it inspiring how a nomadic Semite people have forged this identity that has survived all they have survived and still maintained their identity... can you name another culture that has done that?

 

I find it inspiring how they created a workable communist society when are all equal and share equally and yet initiative and genus were rewarded.

 

I find it inspiring how this culture resisted the Hellenization and alienation of their cultural beliefs and practices and how some were willing to die to resist. The whole Kingdom of God idea as opposed to the Kingdom of Rome or Babylon or Assyria... beautiful.

Genius is rewarded?

The Jews were unable to resist too much, they were conquered and scattered to the wind until after WWII when the country Israel was imposed upon the rest of the world by the USA and Great Britain.

I guess I don't see your point too clearly.

[Guest kcdad]

[quote name='HereticZero'

The babble is the greatest work of fiction ever written.

Are you struggling to let go of Christian fiction in your life? It is rather arrogant on your part to defend a classical work of fiction to portray it as real and true. Is there a miracle that is true? How do you prove the stories are true when Christians cannot even agree whether or not the stories actually happened? Are you a member of the one and only true church?

 

How do you prove History when the victims and victors can't even agree as to whether or not he stories actually happened?

 

My apologies have nothing to do with "Christian fiction". They have everything to do with critical consistency.

There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, than just truth and and reality. When you get complete control of truth and reality, you let me know.

 

Which story did you want proven? Judah's captivity in Babylon? King Cyrus? The Roman occupation of Palestine?

The Bible is a JEWISH History... written by and for Jewish people. DO Brits believe everything in Russian History? Do Americans believe everything in Chinese History? Heck, do Americans believe everything in American History?

[Guest kcdad]

I find it inspiring how a nomadic Semite people have forged this identity that has survived all they have survived and still maintained their identity... can you name another culture that has done that?

 

I find it inspiring how they created a workable communist society when are all equal and share equally and yet initiative and genus were rewarded.

 

I find it inspiring how this culture resisted the Hellenization and alienation of their cultural beliefs and practices and how some were willing to die to resist. The whole Kingdom of God idea as opposed to the Kingdom of Rome or Babylon or Assyria... beautiful.

Genius is rewarded?

The Jews were unable to resist too much, they were conquered and scattered to the wind until after WWII when the country Israel was imposed upon the rest of the world by the USA and Great Britain.

I guess I don't see your point too clearly.

 

And yet they survived... Can you say the same about the cultures that settled America from Asia? Can you say the same for the Angles or Celts? Can you say the same for the Romans? The Mongols? The Mayans? Their faith in their History is UNIQUE. BTW... EVERYONE has been conquered at one time or another. There are no undefeated societies.

 

I hate it when I am the only one in a conversation that seems to have critical thinking skills.

[Deva]

Well, duh. The same can be said for OUR history... In America we tell all kinds of lies about The Revolution, The War of 1812, The Civil War, The industrial revolution and the wonder of Capitalism. We talk about the preservation of freedom in the Philippines and Cuba... our world interests in WW1 and WW2. Who ever claimed History had to be true or accurate?

 

You can just take the sarcasm elsewhere. I was not disrespectful to you, but your tone throughout is disrespectful. Whether you like it or not, the Biblical record is not the same as modern history. It is a question of probability.

 

I find it inspiring how a nomadic Semite people have forged this identity that has survived all they have survived and still maintained their identity... can you name another culture that has done that?

 

I find it inspiring how they created a workable communist society when are all equal and share equally and yet initiative and genus were rewarded.

 

I find it inspiring how this culture resisted the Hellenization and alienation of their cultural beliefs and practices and how some were willing to die to resist. The whole Kingdom of God idea as opposed to the Kingdom of Rome or Babylon or Assyria... beautiful.

 

Thanks for answering my question.

[RubyHypatia]

Is there something wrong with Jews having their own country in their ancestral homeland? I'd think I'd want that after a major world power tried to exterminate me and my people.

[Guest kcdad]

You can just take the sarcasm elsewhere. I was not disrespectful to you, but your tone throughout is disrespectful. Whether you like it or not, the Biblical record is not the same as modern history. It is a question of probability.

 

I love sarcasm... you have to search for the truth in it... it's like a puzzle.

 

Disrespectful to you? You sound like a fundamentalist. I know nothing about you and your beliefs or lack of beliefs. All I know is that you made a sweeping generality as most people do and I corrected you.

 

That probability onion is a tough one to peel and yet its stink requires me to do so.

 

1) So... probably modern historians are more objective and empirically based.

2) So... probably modern histories can be corroborated by other contemporary sources.

3) So... probably modern histories are archeologically verifiable.

 

Right?

 

 

1) MOST modern histories base their findings are NON-objective sources; journals, letters, state documents.

2) MOST modern histories were written by literate, Sophist or epitosmologically trained societies. There are certainly more opportunities today to get varied accounts of events than there were prior to 1550 or 3000 years ago when The Jewish histories were written.

3) MOST modern histories were written with the express intent of creating a history for the ages, not to provide an exiled people with a basis for recreating a lost society.

 

None of this proves The Bible to be fact or fiction... that was never the intent of the Jewish writers. The intent was to record a truth about a people. It is as valid as your father or mother telling you stories about their parents or their grandparents... or telling you stories that their grandparents told them about THEIR grandparents.

[Deva]

Disrespectful to you? You sound like a fundamentalist.

 

So we progress from sarcasm to name-calling. Beautiful. Too bad this is one of the areas on this site limited to polite discourse. Anyone vote for moving this one to the Den?

 

None of this proves The Bible to be fact or fiction... that was never the intent of the Jewish writers. The intent was to record a truth about a people. It is as valid as your father or mother telling you stories about their parents or their grandparents... or telling you stories that their grandparents told them about THEIR grandparents.

 

So then its an oral history which was eventually written down. There are different types of history. I said "the Biblical record is not the same as modern history. It is a question of probability." The Biblical record is not history in the same way more modern history is. That is all I am saying. The difference is the reliability of the sources. The more documentation, the more probability an event actually happened. What is your big deal?