Hi....i'm A Christian

[ThreeD]

Hi all...I'm new and yes I'm a christian. I've read through some threads and have been here in the past just browsing through. I can't remember how I got here. Anyways, I probably don't have anything new to present. No arguments, no other things to try to debate on as I'm sure you've all heard before. If this thread turns into a discussion, then great, I have no problem.

 

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

[Astreja]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

Yes, I do believe that's the end of it. Face it: You may want closure and universal justice, but wanting something does not make it so.

[ThreeD]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

Yes, I do believe that's the end of it. Face it: You may want closure and universal justice, but wanting something does not make it so.

 

Ok. So if a close family member of yours was the victim in such a heinous crime and the killer was not caught ever, you would be alright with that? You wouldn't want any justice to come down on that person.

[nightflight]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

Yes, I do believe that's the end of it. Face it: You may want closure and universal justice, but wanting something does not make it so.

 

Ok. So if a close family member of yours was the victim in such a heinous crime and the killer was not caught ever, you would be alright with that? You wouldn't want any justice to come down on that person.

 

The kind of "justice" you believe in would have both murderer and victim writhing in hell forever. So your whole point is moot.

[cmotdibbler]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

Yes, I do believe that's the end of it. Face it: You may want closure and universal justice, but wanting something does not make it so.

 

Ok. So if a close family member of yours was the victim in such a heinous crime and the killer was not caught ever, you would be alright with that? You wouldn't want any justice to come down on that person.

 

Who wouldn't want the perpetrator to feel the hand of justice, regardless of whether the victim was a close family member or somebody in the newspaper. Constructing a belief system that guarantees ultimate justice is just a way to placate the powerless. Life isn't a Hollywood movie, sometimes the bad guy wins and the good guy doesn't get the girl. What about those whom "god" unfairly punished for the sins of their fathers (Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.) Who punishes god? Maybe your belief system is just an attempt at wish fulfillment?

[Caretaker]

If a person was able to commit a murder and not get caught, then theoretically, I think it would be possible for the murderer to escape any and all punishment for the crime. It's the sad and hard truth.

 

Would I be okay with it? Heck no.

[Astreja]

Ok. So if a close family member of yours was the victim in such a heinous crime and the killer was not caught ever, you would be alright with that? You wouldn't want any justice to come down on that person.

Oh, I would want justice, all right... But, even if afterlife justice were actually possible, I would not want to have such a thing if it entailed having the perpetrator tortured for eternity.

 

Because that would make me infinitely worse than the person I sought to punish.

[HelloWorld]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

He doesn't get his "just due".

 

I don't really see the issue with this. I also don't see where this is going...unless we are walking towards something along the lines of "Where do we get our sense of right and wrong? Or sense of justice and injustice? How can there be morality without a god?"

 

Or, maybe it really and truly wasn't meant to go anywhere, in which case I am really confused. Like, I don't see the value or purpose in the question.

[ThreeD]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

Yes, I do believe that's the end of it. Face it: You may want closure and universal justice, but wanting something does not make it so.

 

Ok. So if a close family member of yours was the victim in such a heinous crime and the killer was not caught ever, you would be alright with that? You wouldn't want any justice to come down on that person.

 

Who wouldn't want the perpetrator to feel the hand of justice, regardless of whether the victim was a close family member or somebody in the newspaper. Constructing a belief system that guarantees ultimate justice is just a way to placate the powerless. Life isn't a Hollywood movie, sometimes the bad guy wins and the good guy doesn't get the girl. What about those whom "god" unfairly punished for the sins of their fathers (Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.) Who punishes god? Maybe your belief system is just an attempt at wish fulfillment?

 

Well I guess it may be a way to placate the weak or powerless. It comes down to the one big problem...if God is just, he can't forgive, the murderer, the rapist or "good" people. I know society always talks about criminals getting off free (OJ may be a good example even though they got him now) and people crying out for justice because of this. You want a holy, loving, and just God to take care of the evils in this world. It may not be now, but all evildoers will get their just due.

 

As for who punishes God? No one. Everything He does has a purpose and all was made to bring glory to Himself. Despite what man thinks, it is not about him. The Creator has the right to do whatever He may with His creation for His purposes. Yes God is loving, but if He is just loving, how shall the wicked be punished? If he is just wrath, how shall He show His mercy?

[ThreeD]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

Yes, I do believe that's the end of it. Face it: You may want closure and universal justice, but wanting something does not make it so.

 

Ok. So if a close family member of yours was the victim in such a heinous crime and the killer was not caught ever, you would be alright with that? You wouldn't want any justice to come down on that person.

 

The kind of "justice" you believe in would have both murderer and victim writhing in hell forever. So your whole point is moot.

 

Well I was correlating the natural with the spiritual. Most people want justice in this world, but not the next. Why not?

[ThreeD]

Ok. So if a close family member of yours was the victim in such a heinous crime and the killer was not caught ever, you would be alright with that? You wouldn't want any justice to come down on that person.

Oh, I would want justice, all right... But, even if afterlife justice were actually possible, I would not want to have such a thing if it entailed having the perpetrator tortured for eternity.

 

Because that would make me infinitely worse than the person I sought to punish.

 

Well if you look at it like this in that man in his sin state doesn't want God. He doesn't want anything to do with God and hates God. They are of their father the devil. In the end, it says hell was prepared for the devil and his angels...if men who curse God and hate Him are doing the deeds of their "father", they will go to where their" father" resides. Despite what mainstream christianity teaches, there is no middle ground. The devil has not cast a vote and God cast a vote and it's up to you to decide the final vote. You have either recognized your sin, become broken and distraught over the sni and wicked things in your life, and have repented and accepted the gift of salvation through Christ, or you haven't in which you are following the devil.

[Ameen]

As human beings, we have had much of our thinking shaped by religion, literature, movies--even super-hero comic books. It would be wonderful if, like so much that we watch/read/wish for, everyone married Prince Charming or Cinderella and lived happily ever after; I certainly wish that were the case. As an atheist, though, I have to separate wishful thinking from cold reality.

 

Sometimes people get caught and get their just desserts. Sometimes they don't. My close friend's father was abusive to both of his boys, and my friend's brother eventually committed suicide. My own friend has managed to marry and raise kids, but he is forever haunted by the horrible things his father did to him and will never be whole. In addition, this man did terrible things to many others--and was in a position of power at his job and thus got away with it. Now he's dead. Has he been punished? No.

 

Should he roast in hell? A part of me actually wants to say yes, but I know that is inhuman. No one deserves to roast for eternity.

 

That didn't stop me from walking up to the old man's coffin and whispering "fuck you" when no one was around, however. I am supportive of my friend, who always wanted his father to love him and could never win the old man's approval. My friend will never hear what I really think.

 

My friend is a Christian, and he lives with the hope that his father goes to Heaven but is told by God just how wrong what he did was. He just wants to know that his father knows better know; I guess that would be the closest thing to an apology he can imagine. Since he is my friend, I accept him as he is, beliefs and all. He has tried to forgive his father and his brother to the best of his ability, but I know how much it still eats at him, and I give him a lot of leeway when he starts acting like a jerk.

 

There is no justice, as all my friend's suffering is for nothing. At least my friend got a wife who loves him and whom he loves in return. Many don't even get that. Many lives are wasted for no reason. It's a sad reality.

[Deva]

Despite what man thinks, it is not about him. The Creator has the right to do whatever He may with His creation for His purposes.

 

This is used to justify the most heinous crimes. Its one step away from "let's just burn them at the stake and get it over with since they are going to burn anyway."

 

You should think about the moral implications of what you are stating.

 

Justice is purely a human concept. It does not exist outside of human thought.

[ThreeD]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

He doesn't get his "just due".

 

I don't really see the issue with this. I also don't see where this is going...unless we are walking towards something along the lines of "Where do we get our sense of right and wrong? Or sense of justice and injustice? How can there be morality without a god?"

 

Or, maybe it really and truly wasn't meant to go anywhere, in which case I am really confused. Like, I don't see the value or purpose in the question.

I'm sorry for not being clear. Yes that was along the lines I was going. I would think people would want justice either way. The wicked have to get punished whether it's in this life, the afterlife, or even both if you want a God that is just...and you should.

 

Let's take that example of the murder or something as simple as a robbery. Let's say they catch him and he's on trial. Wouldn't you want the judge to be just. What if the judge said, "Well you only stole a few things...people have stolen before and not gotten caught. I'll let you off with a warning. You don't deserve jail as there are people who have done much worse than you"

 

And here you are sitting in the court room with your car gone, $20,000 in savings gone, along with other valuable things. Would that be fair?

[ThreeD]

Despite what man thinks, it is not about him. The Creator has the right to do whatever He may with His creation for His purposes.

 

This is used to justify the most heinous crimes. Its one step away from "let's just burn them at the stake and get it over with since they are going to burn anyway."

 

You should think about the moral implications of what you are stating.

 

Justice is purely a human concept. It does not exist outside of human thought.

I would submit to you that justice is a concept from God. Especially since man was made in God's image. If you look at the main difference between animals and humans, it's the moral concepts and justice as you say. Animals have no concept of justice or "fairness" in the sense that they don't make laws governing what is right and wrong. They basically just react on pure instinct. I've ehard stories of people having pets such as lions and snakes and then the animal eating the owner. The animal did not have a moral conscience to say, "hey this is my owner and he's taken care of me so I shouldn't eat him". No the animal was just hungry and could care less.

 

Humans are the only creatures on this earth to have a concept of what is moral and right and wrong, which ties into the man made in God's image which leads me to say that had it not been for this, man would be just like any other animal without the ability to think logically and decide what is right or wrong.

[Astreja]

As for who punishes God? No one. Everything He does has a purpose and all was made to bring glory to Himself.

Thank you for invalidating Christianity as a possible source of morality for humankind. Might does not make right. Ever.

 

Well if you look at it like this in that man in his sin state doesn't want God.

 

"Sin" is a mythical construct. So is your god. So is your devil. We do not accept scriptures as "proof" around here, so unless you have scientific evidence for the existence of Biblegod, Satan, and Hell, don't even go there.

 

Because if you pull out the Bible, I'm pulling out the Poetic Edda, the Odyssey, Dragonlance Legends, the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and My very own scripture, Astrejurbók.

 

The devil has not cast a vote and God cast a vote and it's up to you to decide the final vote.

 

I vote to abolish Christianity.

 

As for Original Sin, I abolished that on December 30, 2000. And the Apocalypse happened on April 2, 2001. Our side won.

[Antlerman]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

Well, one way to look at this would be to ask about a virus that made someone sick and killed them. Should we believe that the virus that killed grandma needs to spend eternity in hell for what it did? But what about people? People are responsible, or should be. But in many regards perpetrators of crimes are often ill. They are ill in the sense that their conscious doesn't operate within the same norms as most of society which functions "healthfully" for the most part. Rules of morality really apply to the curve of society that functions normally, and it serves as guidelines as to its expecations for what's acceptable for the majority of people. They can also give direction to those who are functional to know what is and isn't accpetable. This is seen in any home raising a child, being taught right from wrong.

 

So when you have someone who doesn't follow the rule, where consequecens don't matter because these folks fall outside the norm of "healthy" behavior, should we torture and kill them, or simply isolate them away from the healthy community, like you would an ill person? The notion of a God exacting vengeance is a pitiful image of a god. It's just a projection of human anger creating god in their own image. If their was a real God, wouldn't it pity the sick, and not set them on fire for those desiring vengence?

 

What if the criminal "get's away with it"? Then he gets away with it. "Justice" being exacted doesn't bring back the victim, it doesn't change the pain, it doesn't satisfy the anger and what happened. His life has its own punishment for his actions - if he had a normal conscience, and if he didn't, then his torture and death wouldn't mean the same to him as we assume it would to us. He doesn't think the same. Honestly, how pitiful that "God" is made to be so bloodthirsty in the eyes of some Christians. Yuk. You would think God would transcend our primative minds, wouldn't you?

[Astreja]

"Justice" being exacted doesn't bring back the victim, it doesn't change the pain, it doesn't satisfy the anger and what happened.

(applauds) Quoted for truth.

[cmotdibbler]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

Yes, I do believe that's the end of it. Face it: You may want closure and universal justice, but wanting something does not make it so.

 

Ok. So if a close family member of yours was the victim in such a heinous crime and the killer was not caught ever, you would be alright with that? You wouldn't want any justice to come down on that person.

 

Who wouldn't want the perpetrator to feel the hand of justice, regardless of whether the victim was a close family member or somebody in the newspaper. Constructing a belief system that guarantees ultimate justice is just a way to placate the powerless. Life isn't a Hollywood movie, sometimes the bad guy wins and the good guy doesn't get the girl. What about those whom "god" unfairly punished for the sins of their fathers (Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.) Who punishes god? Maybe your belief system is just an attempt at wish fulfillment?

 

Well I guess it may be a way to placate the weak or powerless. It comes down to the one big problem...if God is just, he can't forgive, the murderer, the rapist or "good" people. I know society always talks about criminals getting off free (OJ may be a good example even though they got him now) and people crying out for justice because of this. You want a holy, loving, and just God to take care of the evils in this world. It may not be now, but all evildoers will get their just due.

 

As for who punishes God? No one. Everything He does has a purpose and all was made to bring glory to Himself. Despite what man thinks, it is not about him. The Creator has the right to do whatever He may with His creation for His purposes. Yes God is loving, but if He is just loving, how shall the wicked be punished? If he is just wrath, how shall He show His mercy?

 

Unfortunately the wanton acts of violent behavior of your god are inconsistent with his own new testament message, let alone with an omnipotent being. This "CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE" for some reason has very specific guidelines regarding some the skin at the tip of the male phallus, wants his creations to omit perfectly digestible foods from their diet all the while denying them food so that "sacrifices" can be made because the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE enjoys the smell of burning animal flesh. From what you describe, humans are puppets who are punished for *being* puppets... by their own creator and we are supposed to hope for a better stage (to worship the puppet master). All the puppets have to do is believe that a new and improved god-puppet took their sin burden.

 

Sorry, but the only thing more absurd than your deity is your belief in that deity.

[ThreeD]

Bottom line I just want to say that God has to punish evil and be just. The thing is, you're evil. I'm evil. Man is evil. As good as we all think we may be at times, there are those times that I can attest of where I know I did someone wrong whether by stealing or straight up doing a girl wrong by cheating. It may not have been something as big as breaking the law, but I know it was wrong regardless. We see it in humanity everyday. Man is selfish, prideful, and arrogant. So if God has to justly punish the wicked, that includes all of mankind. The thing is (and yes I already know it sounds crazy to all of you) God decided to come to earth as a man, to appease men everywhere and bear the burden of that punishment.

[nightflight]

Do you believe babies are wicked?

[ThreeD]

As for who punishes God? No one. Everything He does has a purpose and all was made to bring glory to Himself.

Thank you for invalidating Christianity as a possible source of morality for humankind. Might does not make right. Ever.

 

Well if you look at it like this in that man in his sin state doesn't want God.

 

"Sin" is a mythical construct. So is your god. So is your devil. We do not accept scriptures as "proof" around here, so unless you have scientific evidence for the existence of Biblegod, Satan, and Hell, don't even go there.

 

Because if you pull out the Bible, I'm pulling out the Poetic Edda, the Odyssey, Dragonlance Legends, the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and My very own scripture, Astrejurbók.

 

The devil has not cast a vote and God cast a vote and it's up to you to decide the final vote.

 

I vote to abolish Christianity.

 

As for Original Sin, I abolished that on December 30, 2000. And the Apocalypse happened on April 2, 2001. Our side won.

 

Well hey then I can't say anything. All I can do like always is to let you know that God commands all men to repent and recognize that your brokenness and that you are dead in trespasses and sins and to tell you to cry out to God for mercy until He saves you from the wickedness and sin of your heart.

[HelloWorld]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

He doesn't get his "just due".

 

I don't really see the issue with this. I also don't see where this is going...unless we are walking towards something along the lines of "Where do we get our sense of right and wrong? Or sense of justice and injustice? How can there be morality without a god?"

 

Or, maybe it really and truly wasn't meant to go anywhere, in which case I am really confused. Like, I don't see the value or purpose in the question.

I'm sorry for not being clear. Yes that was along the lines I was going. I would think people would want justice either way. The wicked have to get punished whether it's in this life, the afterlife, or even both if you want a God that is just...and you should.

 

Let's take that example of the murder or something as simple as a robbery. Let's say they catch him and he's on trial. Wouldn't you want the judge to be just. What if the judge said, "Well you only stole a few things...people have stolen before and not gotten caught. I'll let you off with a warning. You don't deserve jail as there are people who have done much worse than you"

 

And here you are sitting in the court room with your car gone, $20,000 in savings gone, along with other valuable things. Would that be fair?

 

I would certainly want the judge to be just. And yes, if there is a god, I would want him to be just.

 

I don't think that the argument here is about whether or not justice is something to be desired. It is about what it means to be just and what qualifies as just. And the Christian god is not just. Justice is more than simply punishing those who do wrong. It is about issuing a just punishment - a punishment that is reflective of the "crime" committed. A just judge is just to both the victim and the perpetrator.

 

And no, I do not think that the judge's verdict in your scenario is just.

 

And I do not think that eternal torture is a just punishment for any wrong-doing.

[Trike]

Hello and Welcome, ThreeD.

 

In answer to your question, yes, I do think that that is the end of it. Do I like it? No. But since there is no evidence for some sort of system of punishment in the afterlife (and no evidence for an afterlife either), the what am I supposed to logically think?

 

Most punishment is meted out by society for the purposes of social cohesion. Let me explain.

 

Religion can not take responsibility for making certain things taboo. For instance, let's consider murder. When our ancestors first began forming social groups, being able to trust and rely on other members of the group became key. Murder takes away a valuable member of the group and it destroys trust between members of the group. That is why murder is taboo. These early taboos were codified into religion (either eventually being woven into the morals of religion or religion provided the "scare factor" to guarantee that the members of the group followed societal morals).

 

So, in a case of a crime like murder it follows that if you can escape society's punishment then it is over. Although since these taboos are now part of make-up as human beings it follows that most people will eventually feel guilt about the crimes they have committed. So, in a way, punishment does catch up with perpetrators.

[ThreeD]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

Yes, I do believe that's the end of it. Face it: You may want closure and universal justice, but wanting something does not make it so.

 

Ok. So if a close family member of yours was the victim in such a heinous crime and the killer was not caught ever, you would be alright with that? You wouldn't want any justice to come down on that person.

 

Who wouldn't want the perpetrator to feel the hand of justice, regardless of whether the victim was a close family member or somebody in the newspaper. Constructing a belief system that guarantees ultimate justice is just a way to placate the powerless. Life isn't a Hollywood movie, sometimes the bad guy wins and the good guy doesn't get the girl. What about those whom "god" unfairly punished for the sins of their fathers (Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.) Who punishes god? Maybe your belief system is just an attempt at wish fulfillment?

 

Well I guess it may be a way to placate the weak or powerless. It comes down to the one big problem...if God is just, he can't forgive, the murderer, the rapist or "good" people. I know society always talks about criminals getting off free (OJ may be a good example even though they got him now) and people crying out for justice because of this. You want a holy, loving, and just God to take care of the evils in this world. It may not be now, but all evildoers will get their just due.

 

As for who punishes God? No one. Everything He does has a purpose and all was made to bring glory to Himself. Despite what man thinks, it is not about him. The Creator has the right to do whatever He may with His creation for His purposes. Yes God is loving, but if He is just loving, how shall the wicked be punished? If he is just wrath, how shall He show His mercy?

 

Unfortunately the wanton acts of violent behavior of your god are inconsistent with his own new testament message, let alone with an omnipotent being. This "CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE" for some reason has very specific guidelines regarding some the skin at the tip of the male phallus, wants his creations to omit perfectly digestible foods from their diet all the while denying them food so that "sacrifices" can be made because the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE enjoys the smell of burning animal flesh. From what you describe, humans are puppets who are punished for *being* puppets... by their own creator and we are supposed to hope for a better stage (to worship the puppet master). All the puppets have to do is believe that a new and improved god-puppet took their sin burden.

 

Sorry, but the only thing more absurd than your deity is your belief in that deity.

 

Well yes. God is sovereign and in control of the hearts of men and all things are done to glorify Him. Even the saving of men. But yes all men are puppets in some way shape or form. If you are not saved, then you are hanging on the strings of the Devil and you are making choices and doing what you want to do. People are slaves to sin. God isn't making you do anything. Like I said, God has created vessels of wrath and mercy according to His purposes and if you don't believe in Him because of that, then cool.