How Does Believing In God Give Us Purpose?

[Abiyoyo]

God can't have everything he wants the way he wants it because that would make God a dictator and you are essentially admitting you worship a dictatorship. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The same holds true for God. What gives God the right to decide what our purpose and fate should be and to control us as mere puppets and slaves?

 

Where does it say God is not in a dictatorship role? His rights is in His creation. Same today, right? If someone creates something they have the rights to it. People make a choice to become enslaved in their belief, concepts; and likewise to become puppets.

 

If Hitler told you your purpose was to be a Nazi and to follow his orders to torture all the Jews, would you follow his orders because he believed he should have everything his way? If Hitler can't have everything his way, why should God? No one asked God to create the universe. If God exists as you say, then God created the universe on his own. Nobody asked him to do it yet for some reason we're expected to bow down as slaves to God for no reason other than he said so. If God can have everything his way, then why didn't God just create us as mindless slaves to worship him in heaven and skip all the crap on Earth, since you just admitted that's what God wants?

 

Would your life be better as a mindless slave? Would it indeed be the same life for you? That was the response of the year I believe. You would not be you unless God had let it be that way.

 

You keep proving my point that if we're only doing actions because a god threatened us to, then we're living out God's purpose, not ours and thus worshiping Yahweh is no way to have purpose for yourself. It's also contradictory to say God is freed of being selfish yet God is all-powerful and can do anything at the same time. If God can't be selfish, then God isn't all-powerful because the one thing God can't do is be selfish which contradicts the very nature of God but the very nature of a god that is omni everything is contradictory in itself.

 

Then to make Him omni whatever; He would have to know and be capable of acting selfish. people can be selfish to other people and they are not truly selfish. Right? Someone says that person is selfish, until a reason, explanation, etc is given to resolve the thought of selfishness. Could that be the case with God? You in a finite state consider God to be selfish; yet if you knew the reason, explanation, ..purpose..will.., etc; the selfish thought of God could possibly be resolved.

 

The catch to that is as finite people; it isn't explained fully, hence we have God's purpose,will, reason, explanation etc, in part.

[GraphicsGuy]

Everybody is selfish. It takes maturity and confidence to overcome most of that self-interest, but at our very cores ALL of us are selfish.

[Abiyoyo]

Do you mean no hell, or Satan by no dissent?

 

I mean by no dissent, that everyone would choose to worship God. And yes there would be no Satan or hell. And even if people didn't choose God, the all powerful creator of the universe isn't going to get pissed off and torment any dissenters by torturing them like a mean kid would pull wings off a fly.

 

And if God really wanted ALL of us to worship him, he has the major advantage,he's also Omnipatient, he can just wait us out.

 

Bottom line: An all powerful being does not torment it's creations because they refuse to kiss it's ass.

 

Yo-Yo, I'm not certain exactly what the mysterious force is that runs the universe, but I can say with confidence, it's not the vicious tyrant of the bible.

 

Maybe His patience has been misconstrued into non-existence.

[Ouroboros]

Maybe His patience has been misconstrued into non-existence.

Or maybe he's resting. After he created the Universe, he got so tired so he had to rest for a day, and we know how stubborn both the Jews and the Christians have been to keep their faith in him, so he's just out for a little R&R.

[Abiyoyo]

Maybe His patience has been misconstrued into non-existence.

Or maybe he's resting. After he created the Universe, he got so tired so he had to rest for a day, and we know how stubborn both the Jews and the Christians have been to keep their faith in him, so he's just out for a little R&R.

 

Its funny you say that. That alone was what made me begin to look outside the Bible for more details of Genesis. God rests? He's God!

[Ouroboros]

Its funny you say that. That alone was what made me begin to look outside the Bible for more details of Genesis. God rests? He's God!

Well... if all that's good comes from God, then God must have created "rest" or it's an innate desire in him to rest at times, otherwise it wouldn't be good!

[Neon Genesis]

Where does it say God is not in a dictatorship role? His rights is in His creation. Same today, right? If someone creates something they have the rights to it.

You're making an absolutist statement that has no basis in reality. If a mother gives birth to a child, she does not always have the right to control that child at all times in the course of the child's life. She certainly has the right to that child when she's raising the child, but when the child becomes an adult, they have the right to leave their parent and take charge of their own life. If they tried to live their own life and the mother tried to kidnap the grown adult to control their life, then we would consider that child abuse and kidnapping. But for some reason, when God continues to control us even after we become adults, then it's called "divine purpose." And are you saying that it's justifiable for God to be a dictator? If you wouldn't think it's justifiable for Hitler to be a dictator, why should it be ok for God to be one? Or are you saying dictatorships are moral? Do you realize what you're saying?

 

People make a choice to become enslaved in their belief, concepts; and likewise to become puppets.

How does people living their ordinary lives and minding their own business = slavery? And why is it immoral for us to be "enslaved" to our beliefs yet it's ok for God to enslave us? Who died and made God dictator?

 

 

Would your life be better as a mindless slave? Would it indeed be the same life for you? That was the response of the year I believe. You would not be you unless God had let it be that way.

I didn't say my life would be better as a mindless slave. You're taking my quote out of context. My point was that if God's idea of freedom is to choose to follow him or suffer his wrath, why did he bother creating us and giving us the choice to begin with since ultimately we have no true choice either way?

 

 

Then to make Him omni whatever; He would have to know and be capable of acting selfish. people can be selfish to other people and they are not truly selfish. Right? Someone says that person is selfish, until a reason, explanation, etc is given to resolve the thought of selfishness. Could that be the case with God? You in a finite state consider God to be selfish; yet if you knew the reason, explanation, ..purpose..will.., etc; the selfish thought of God could possibly be resolved.

 

The catch to that is as finite people; it isn't explained fully, hence we have God's purpose,will, reason, explanation etc, in part.

This is just a roundabout way of saying God's ways are mysterious and we can't understand him. Yet just now earlier in your post you told me what God's ways were and that I could only be the way I am because God made me that way, as if you somehow know this to be a proven fact. But then you hypocritically turn around and say we can't understand God's ways when you were just telling me what his ways were. Make up your mind already. Either God's ways are unknowable and so you can't claim to know what God's purpose for us is or to know God has the right to control our lives. Or if you claim to know these things, then you do claim to know what God's ways are and so my point still stands that the nature of God is contradictory.

[rayskidude]

But - let me propose a different (and I think better) illustration of living according to someone else's purpose. When is a train performing best? When is the train most free to stop, go, change direction, serve people for their benefit by carrying their persons and supplies? When is a train most admired and valued? When does a train look its best? When it is firmly on the tracks. BUT, the train tracks are imposed on the train by engineers and politicians and customers.

 

Why not free the train to travel wherever it will? Why not get the train off the tracks to run its own course? The answer is obvious. And this also is true for us - left to ourselves we can pursue a life with our own meaning and purpose, but it will be a myopic purpose - we're limited by our sinful human nature. Many great people have pursued a course in life completely separate from God - and they enjoyed it. But their lives accomplished little for themsleves and others - temporal pleasures, short-lived benefits for others, some impact for the next generation - but not much for subsequent generations. That's why secular writers speak of men living lives of quiet desparation, or describing human life as a brief moment of sound and fury signifying nothing. The purposes of men can only be finite and selfish - it's who we are.

 

I hear a lot of soundbytes from you types about man's "sinful nature" and how we are all just evil, horrid people by ourselves. Prove it, or else your statements cannot stand. And don't give me a list of tax evaders or shit like that, b/c for each of those I could show you a Christian pastor/authority figure that the "holy spirit" was working in that has committed far greater atrocities. In fact, look around you, sure there are rapists, serial killers, thieves and the like but most people you will see on the street are not any of those. Most of those good people who aren't looting, raping, killing, or littering are capable of doing so with either no religion, nominal religion or a very liberal and loose form of religion. Given that, I see little evidence to support your claim in my everyday life, but perhaps you have some hard, empirical proof?

 

Also, trains do not have brains or free will; two things which your sky daddy, supposedly, gives humankind and then punishes us for using. It is obvious that your sky daddy does not wish us to use the very facilities he gave us and called "good" in Genesis.

 

And what non-temporal purpose does belief in the Christian deity give, other than "Zomg! I hope Israel invades Iran and then it'll be the raaaaaptuuure and I get to have a palace and see Jesus!" or some variant on that drivel. Given the choice between someone who believes something along those lines and someone who actively seeks to make the world a better place, who wpuld you rather have living next door? Who will do more for the world? The Christians' "purpose" is the epitome of empty and temporal, since they always seek that pie in the sky and do not do anything in this temporal realm (do read some theology; Heaven, God and all that Jazz is a-temporal). Whereas, in this view, a non-believer's purpose is also temporal but will last longer than the Christians.

 

All people are sinners by nature - simply meaning that it is in our nature to go against God's righteous commands (God commands us to love Him completely and to love others as we love ourselves) and even our own sense of morality. Put in a tough spot - we will naturally respond in a selfish manner, despite the consequences that others may suffer. Take the recent example of the Hutu and Tutsi people in Rwanda. Under conditions of political revolt, neighbors hacked each other to death. And look at Nazi Germany. Many poeple have believed that only psychopaths like those in the German SS comitted atrocities. But recently, a historian has written a book showing that "average" Germans committed many cruelties - because they protecting themselves from the Nazi regime. They kowtowed to the government in self-preservation, and if that meant committing atrocities, well, so be it. And just look at the Sudan today.

 

And you're right, professing Chritians have committed many grievous sins. Becoming a Christian does not remove temptation nor the desire for the primacy of self-interest. But the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives (1) gives us a new heart with new deisres, (2) enables us to persevere through temptation so that we do not sin - though we do not always appropriate that ability, but (3) does nor remove those old desires, but it does weaken those old desires.

 

And re: whether Christians work for the good of this world - I can only commend you to read about the hundreds of Christian medical missionaries, Christian schoolteachers, humanitarian mission agencies, etc. that have been and are currently active in Africa, Southeast Asia, Eastern Europe, South America, etc. My family has been involved in Youth camps in Eastern Europe for many years, and my wife and I recently lived in Iraq for six months doing community development work. Billions of dollars are given voluntarily by Christians are spent each year all over the world. We 're commanded to love others - and we must be faithful to follow the example of Jesus and His teaching re: the Good Samaritan.

 

SO for the Christian - good theology must lead to good praxology (Christian practice).

[rayskidude]

...

There would be other similar examples from family life, business, camping trips, whatever. But we all know that not everyone can be chief!!! Someone's got to be chief - the rest follow.

 

So who's qualified to lead? Only God.

How does God lead?

 

Through a quite voice in your mind? Who's to say that the voice is just part of a mental disorder or real? Who makes the distinction? The person who hears it? So who's the final judge on God's word to the person? The person itself, isn't it. So how does people get led? But leading themselves.

 

If God at least would come down from the mountain and actually speak with a clear voice which everyone in the room could hear simultaneous, then God could lead. Until then, he's nothing but the distant relative who never calls or write.

 

If the president says: "God speaks to me," would you vote on him just because of that phrase? Which God does he hear? Can you be sure it's God he's hearing and not something else? What about the next president saying the same thing? Should we really have a country, or family, or life, led by people who claim to hear from God, while it's just as possible they are either lying or delusional?

 

The pope believes, and his parishioners too, that the Pope is the spokesperson for God. The Pope hears God. Do you think he does?

 

God leads us thru His written word - the Bible. Thru the Bible we understand how to become a member of the family of God. Though we've all been created ultimately by God, yet we're not in God's family by virtue of our physical birth, we don't automatically follow Jesus. We are sinners by nature, intent on following our own selfish way. But once we have repented of our sin and placed our faith in Jesus as the Christ of God, the Son of God who died for our sins and rose from the dead - and Who will one day call His followers into heaven - then we study the Bible in order to be faithful followers. If we claim to follow God - we must study and live according to His revealed truth. In the Bible, God reveals wisdom for living.

 

And this is the question about life: the Bible doesn't instruct us about what subjects to study in college, which job to take, which particular person to marry, which house to live-in and/or buy, which car to buy, which clothes to wear, etc. But if we (1) study God's word diligently, and we (2) pray and ask God to guide us in these decisions, and (3) we're generally obedient to the blatant commands in Scripture, then (4) God has promised and He will guide us in these decisions and give us wisdom.

 

What to study? Well, what are you interested in and have an aptitiude for? Those are God-given when He made you.

What job? Well, what career will fulfill you personally? What job will provide for your needs and enable you to give to others?

Whom to marry? Who do you love (I like the George Thorogood and the Destroyers version, but you got to give props to Bo Diddley)? Well, who is attractive to you and will encourage you to grow spiritually and will be faithful and will be a good parent and will work toward the same goals, etc.

What car to buy? Whatever you like that meets your needs and you can afford.

What clothes to wear? Whatever you like - as long as they're modest.

 

Much of life is just living according to the common sense revealed in the Bible - there are no big secrets to fulfilled living. Be faithful to live according to God's leading in Scripture and you will live a blessed life. You may not realize some things in your own personal timing - and God may be saying "No" to some of your desires because your motives are wrong. Or He may be teaching you patience by a delay, and working in you so that you will see that there are betters desires to be fulfilled.

 

Bottom line; God is all-loving and all-powerful. If it's God's will, you'll have it. If it's contrary to His will - you probably won't. BUT He may give you something against His will - so you will learn that this thing you had desired so much is in fact not the best for you - but may even be detrimental. So it's a learning thing. SO again - no magic formula, just study God's word, pray for guidance, seek advice from godly Christians, - and then make the best decisions we can.

 

Re: people claiming to hear from God. I would not follow anyone who claims to have literally 'heard' from God, because God communicates to us primarily thru the Bible. But if someone says "I pray to God about my decisions, and study to see what the Bible teaches on a certain matter." then I would follow that individual. God does answer our prayers and gives us wisdom to guide our thought processes and our decison-making process; but those are not infallible.

[GraphicsGuy]

God leads us thru His written word - the Bible. Thru the Bible we understand how to become a member of the family of God.

 

Your entire post above leads to the reason why there are so many doctrines and so many versions of Xianity out there today.

 

Some people take a softer view of life and, thusly, the Bible. They see it as a guide to helping others.

 

Some people see it as a way to personal gain.

 

Some as a way to conquest.

 

Some as a way to merely avoid eternal torment.

 

Some as a guidebook since they can't seem to live life without some kind of guide.

 

God never seems to lead any two people in the same direction and everyone is always wondering, "I'm doing it right, why can't everyone else just see it my way and do what I do?"

 

Life works out for some people and not for others. If God is "leading" shouldn't life work out better for more people? Especially if they honestly believe they're following his lead...

[Ouroboros]

God leads us thru His written word - the Bible.

Then why are there so many different interpretations? If it was a clear guidance, there would be a common behavior, but when you even see Christians war against Christians, and using the Bible as their argument for war, there is no unity in the word.

 

Thru the Bible we understand how to become a member of the family of God.

Actually, we don't. Because there are several different things you have to do, which not all Christians agree to be required. Jesus said you should sell everything you own and give to the poor, if you wanted to follow him. Have you done that yet? Probably not, because you don't consider that as important as some other parts. That means, you are the arbiter of the "Word of God," not God, not the Bible, not the Holy Spirit, but you. You are the one who are your own God, deciding what is God's words, and how to interpret them. There are no solid, absolute consistency for how the Bible is to be interpreted, so the Bible fails the test.

 

Though we've all been created ultimately by God, yet we're not in God's family by virtue of our physical birth, we don't automatically follow Jesus. We are sinners by nature, intent on following our own selfish way. But once we have repented of our sin and placed our faith in Jesus as the Christ of God, the Son of God who died for our sins and rose from the dead - and Who will one day call His followers into heaven - then we study the Bible in order to be faithful followers. If we claim to follow God - we must study and live according to His revealed truth. In the Bible, God reveals wisdom for living.

So do you consider the law in the Old Testament to be the guide, or Paul's words? Do you eat pork because Paul said it was okay, or do you avoid it because of the law? I assume you eat it because Paul said Christians now were free from it. But did Jesus say it? You believe in Paul more than Jesus and the OT. But then you have other believers who focus on the OT and believe Paul was out of line. Are they following the word of God, or not?

 

And this is the question about life: the Bible doesn't instruct us about what subjects to study in college, which job to take, which particular person to marry, which house to live-in and/or buy, which car to buy, which clothes to wear, etc. But if we (1) study God's word diligently, and we (2) pray and ask God to guide us in these decisions, and (3) we're generally obedient to the blatant commands in Scripture, then (4) God has promised and He will guide us in these decisions and give us wisdom.

Lets say you lived in Germany during WWII, and a Jewish family took rescue in your house, and the SS soldier asked you if you had seen them. What would you do? Would you lie, and break God's commandment, or would you tell the truth and let them be captured? Both Paul and Jesus tell you--in different words--that you should give your enemy what they want. So how do you interpret the Bible to support lying to the soldier to save the family's life?

 

What to study? Well, what are you interested in and have an aptitiude for? Those are God-given when He made you.

What job? Well, what career will fulfill you personally? What job will provide for your needs and enable you to give to others?

Whom to marry? Who do you love (I like the George Thorogood and the Destroyers version, but you got to give props to Bo Diddley)? Well, who is attractive to you and will encourage you to grow spiritually and will be faithful and will be a good parent and will work toward the same goals, etc.

What car to buy? Whatever you like that meets your needs and you can afford.

What clothes to wear? Whatever you like - as long as they're modest.

Sounds like nature to me.

 

Much of life is just living according to the common sense revealed in the Bible - there are no big secrets to fulfilled living. Be faithful to live according to God's leading in Scripture and you will live a blessed life. You may not realize some things in your own personal timing - and God may be saying "No" to some of your desires because your motives are wrong. Or He may be teaching you patience by a delay, and working in you so that you will see that there are betters desires to be fulfilled.

I have been in many different churches and situations, but I can't say there is a consistency to how people interpret in the Bible for what is "right" or "wrong." The opinions are many. I even know people who use the Bible to argue for socialism.

 

Bottom line; God is all-loving and all-powerful. If it's God's will, you'll have it. If it's contrary to His will - you probably won't.

Like rolling the dice. If they give me the number I wanted, it was the will of the dice, if they didn't, then it wasn't their will.

 

BUT He may give you something against His will - so you will learn that this thing you had desired so much is in fact not the best for you - but may even be detrimental. So it's a learning thing. SO again - no magic formula, just study God's word, pray for guidance, seek advice from godly Christians, - and then make the best decisions we can.

 

Re: people claiming to hear from God. I would not follow anyone who claims to have literally 'heard' from God, because God communicates to us primarily thru the Bible. But if someone says "I pray to God about my decisions, and study to see what the Bible teaches on a certain matter." then I would follow that individual. God does answer our prayers and gives us wisdom to guide our thought processes and our decison-making process; but those are not infallible.

That's right, the process is not infallible. Yet Christians argue the "absoluteness" of God's word, morals, rights, and so on. The interpretations are relative.

[rayskidude]

He doesn't need them I would assume. People serve Him and worship Him for many reasons. I do because I want to worship and serve my God. I agree that the Satan disposition is a little strange; as I have had those same thoughts in regard to it. In the light that you present, it is complicated to keep the notion of Satan as Satan, or hell as hell.

 

God seems to like rules. Ever since A&E, rules, do this don't do that, has been the front running for our being. Mentioning A&E, this also being the case before we were even flesh. Seems as though God though, omni everything; has a passion or need for regulating His created.

 

God also seems to like the idea of freewill being a permanent, in our thought structure. To be able to make choices.

 

You say God is omni everything so why should He need this or that; I say He's omni everything so why can't He have whatever He wants however He wants it. Since He is in all things and of all things, doesn't that free Him of being selfish; just God the creator.

 

Consider this: If he can have everything wants however he wants it, he could make humans to where they could have freewill, but show them that a relationship with him would the ultimate bliss and therefore everyone would choose to serve him, there'd be no dissent.

 

And here's the really spooky part to consider, this might seem like self evident but:God is not human.

He doesn't have any of the weaknesses humans have. He doesn't get hungry or thirsty, he doesn't get tired, he doesn't feel sexual desire. These are all things that humans are subject to, and religions have a way of giving their gods human attributes. So, it seems as if believers make their gods, superpowerful versions of themselves, because the human condition is all humans know, and therefore, they'd depict their gods in their own image and likeness.

 

The fact is that God has made all people free moral agents. And God has shown us that a relationship with Him gives us a fulfilled life here on Earth and an eternity of bliss in Heaven. BUT, all men are sinners. And that sin has so blinded us that we cannot see God's grace and love for us in Christ Jesus. Our Sin is so debilitating that it causes us to reject God and 'we freely choose' to follow our own selfish ways - even though we know our own ways cannot lead to blessedness.

 

All that matters to us is this - it's MY WAY (Isaiah 53:6). We are determined to be like God, in that we want to be free to do whatever we want. God does whatever He pleases (Psalm 115:3), but He is infinitley holy - so all He does is holy. But we're sinners by nature - therefore, much of what we do is determined by our own selfish desires.

 

God knows that left to ourselves, we would ultimately pursue things that will destroy us (how else do you explain rampant drug use, tobacco, alcohol, illicit sex, monetary greed, persecution, etc). See Romans 1:18-32. And of course, we all intuitively understand that sin/wrong must be punished. And God - because of His grace and love for us - has sent His own Son, to die in our place for our sins, and this Jesus rose from the dead and then ascended into Heaven, to one day take all His followers with Him there.

 

Following Jesus is the ONLY WAY to be delivered from the effects of our sin - both here on Earth and for all eternity.

 

And you are so right - GOD IS NOT HUMAN. He is the God of the Universe, the Single Supreme Being, the Creator & Sustainer of all. He is infinite in His holiness, love, justice, grace, mercy, wisdom, anger against sin, wisdom, etc. Why would anyome reject the God Who created them and has designed an awesome eternal life specifically for Him and for them?

 

That is the "utter sinfulness of sin." And when we cry out to God for His mercy - He will save us. Remember the account of the tax collector in the temple in Luke Chap 18. He beat his breast and said, "God, be merciful to me, the sinner." And Jesus said that man went home justified before God, not the Pharisee who bragged about his own righteous living.

[GraphicsGuy]

The fact is that God has made all people free moral agents. And God has shown us that a relationship with Him gives us a fulfilled life here on Earth and an eternity of bliss in Heaven. BUT, all men are sinners. And that sin has so blinded us that we cannot see God's grace and love for us in Christ Jesus. Our Sin is so debilitating that it causes us to reject God and 'we freely choose' to follow our own selfish ways - even though we know our own ways cannot lead to blessedness.

 

So why is my life better now without Jesus than it ever was with Jesus???

 

Following Jesus is the ONLY WAY to be delivered from the effects of our sin

 

Really? Going to the doctor delivered me from mine...

 

Why would anyome reject the God Who created them and has designed an awesome eternal life specifically for Him and for them?

 

Because he's offered no proof of said benevolence.

 

And when we cry out to God for His mercy

 

Mercy for what? Being human?

 

Why is God so goddamned sensitive that he can't accept people as they are? "Sin" and all?

[Deva]

The fact is that God has made all people free moral agents. And God has shown us that a relationship with Him gives us a fulfilled life here on Earth and an eternity of bliss in Heaven. BUT, all men are sinners. And that sin has so blinded us that we cannot see God's grace and love for us in Christ Jesus. Our Sin is so debilitating that it causes us to reject God and 'we freely choose' to follow our own selfish ways - even though we know our own ways cannot lead to blessedness.

 

This is contradictory. You can't have it both ways. People are either free or they are not. If "sin" has blinded us so we cannot see, then how, in any sense, can we be free? If we are so utterly blinded by sin, how can we possibly know that our ways cannot lead us to blessedness?

 

Exactly and in what sense are people free?

 

As far as all your examples of sin go, we could also cite you many examples of altruism and self-sacrifice.

[MathGeek]

All that matters to us is this - it's MY WAY (Isaiah 53:6). We are determined to be like God, in that we want to be free to do whatever we want. God does whatever He pleases (Psalm 115:3), but He is infinitley holy - so all He does is holy. But we're sinners by nature - therefore, much of what we do is determined by our own selfish desires.

 

Therefore, his Holiness can order the wholesale slaughter of a village because HE said so? If I am like God, then it is God's fault I have been given the free will to go out and slaughter every person in the hamlet I live in. Therefore, since God created me and I am determined to be like God, then it is a case of "monkey see, monkey do". Because God is infinitely holy, then he can be infinitely immoral because he lives outside the rules he set for humankind free to gallivant about the universe and snuff out solar systems like he's Q from Star Trek: The Next Generation, and yet we will be punished if we follow his example. By your logic, Jeffrey Dahmer shouldn't be condemned for slaughtering his victims because he was only following the example that God was giving in the Bible.

 

Seems to me that we invented God, not that God invented us.

[agnosticator]

Rayskidude:All that matters to us is this - it's MY WAY (Isaiah 53:6). We are determined to be like God, in that we want to be free to do whatever we want. God does whatever He pleases (Psalm 115:3), but He is infinitley holy - so all He does is holy. But we're sinners by nature - therefore, much of what we do is determined by our own selfish desires.

God knows that left to ourselves, we would ultimately pursue things that will destroy us (how else do you explain rampant drug use, tobacco, alcohol, illicit sex, monetary greed, persecution, etc). See Romans 1:18-32

 

You buy into the cynicism of biblical christianity, that human nature can only be BAD and selfish. I hope you open your eyes to "the world" and see that people can choose to be good on their own merit. I also hope you mature and see what you're saying is a lie. Did you ever see the movie "Sin City"? In it, the villain says:

"Power comes from lying...lying big and getting the whole damn world to go along with you. Once you got everyone agreeing with what they know in their hearts ain't true, you've got 'em by the balls." This holds true for religion and politics.

 

Following Jesus is the ONLY WAY to be delivered from the effects of our sin - both here on Earth and for all eternity.

 

"Sin" is a religious term. Unbelief is considered "sin". This denigrates ethics/morality and people who are good. Believe it or not, there are many good, unselfish people out there.

[rayskidude]

Guys - I suggest that you get a reputable book on the Reformation before drawing any conclusions. Calvin did indeed teach 'election' >> that in eternity past God chose those who will become His followers. But knowing whether you are elect is not derived from worldly prosperity - it is derived from confessing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Lord of your life (Rom 10:9,10; I John 5:11-13), and persevering in your faith until the end. But Calvin also taught that hard work was ordained by God - and therefore the sacred calling upon all believers. The NT teaches that Christians are to work hard (Colossians 3:23) and that all we do we should do to the glory of God (I Corinthians 10:31). This teaching instilled a Protestant work ethic in the people - leading to some level of prosperity. Hard work and cooperation generally yield prosperity.

 

Whereas the Catholic Church had taught for many years that work was a curse, and only the lower classes worked because they incurred God's disfavor. Therefore, many people worked reluctantly, and forced others into slavery or serfdom to provide the necessities of life. Needless to say - that system will not lead to any level of prosperity, since the workers have no incentive. So, Protestantism - with its 'work ethic' did bring prosperity.

 

But financial wealth has never been posited as a means of gauging God's blessing on an individual. Most of the rich Gentile kings of the OT were unbelievers, & the Book of James 5:1-6 condemns the unjust rich, & Paul teaches the love of money is the root of all sorts of evil (I Timothy 5:10), & Jesus Himself taught that you cannot serve God and money (Matthew 6:19-24), & Paul noted in I Corinthians 1:26 that believers were not from the mighty or noble classes. And the Bible is filled with commands to the rich (and poor) that they should be generous with what God has entrusted to them.

 

So the only evidence that God gives as proof of His favor is that He strengthens His followers to persevere in their faith in the face of any trials and hardships. The "Health & Wealth" Gospel is roundly and justifiably condemned by many conservative Chritians as unBiblical teaching.

You're quite correct. I am woefuily ignorant in the area of the Reformation. I've not read any books on the subject.

 

I did come across a rather enlightening text that did help shed a little light on some of this though. Here's a few snippets from "On The Christian Life" by John Calvin:

9. Therefore, if we believe that all prosperous and desirable success depends entirely on the blessing of God, and that when it is wanting all kinds of misery and calamity await us, it follows that we should not eagerly contend for riches and honours, trusting to our own dexterity and assiduity, or leaning on the favour of men, or confiding in any empty imagination of fortune; but should always have respect to the Lord, that under his auspices we may be conducted to whatever lot he has provided for us. First, the result will be, that instead of rushing on regardless of right and wrong, by wiles and wicked arts, and with injury to our neighbours, to catch at wealth and seize upon honours, we will only follow such fortune as we may enjoy with innocence. Who can hope for the aid of the divine blessing amid fraud, rapine, and other iniquitous arts? As this blessing attends him only who thinks purely and acts uprightly, so it calls off all who long for it from sinister designs and evil actions. Secondly, a curb will be laid upon us, restraining a too eager desire of becoming rich, or an ambitious striving after honour. How can any one have the effrontery to expect that God will aid him in accomplishing desires at variance with his word? What God with his own lips pronounces cursed, never can be prosecuted with his blessing. Lastly, if our success is not equal to our wish and hope, we shall, however, be kept from impatience and detestation of our condition, whatever it be, knowing that so to feel were to murmur against God, at whose pleasure riches and poverty, contempt and honours, are dispensed. In shorts he who leans on the divine blessing in the way which has been described, will not, in the pursuit of those things which men are wont most eagerly to desire, employ wicked arts which he knows would avail him nothing; nor when any thing prosperous befalls him will he impute it to himself and his own diligence, or industry, or fortune, instead of ascribing it to God as its author. If, while the affairs of others flourish, his make little progress, or even retrograde, he will bear his humble lot with greater equanimity and moderation than any irreligious man does the moderate success which only falls short of what he wished; for he has a solace in which he can rest more tranquilly than at the very summit of wealth or power, because he considers that his affairs are ordered by the Lord in the manner most conducive to his salvation. This, we see, is the way in which David was affected, who, while he follows God and gives up himself to his guidance, declares, “Neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me. Surely I have behaved and quieted myself as a child that is weaned of his mother,” (Ps. 131:1, 2.)

This arrogance cannot be better repressed than when He proves to us by experience, not only how great our weakness, but also our frailty is. Therefore, he visits us with disgrace, or poverty, or bereavement, or disease, or other afflictions.

Patience, therefore, gives the saints an experimental proof that God in reality furnishes the aid which he has promised whenever there is need. Hence also their faith is confirmed, for it were very ungrateful not to expect that in future the truth of God will be, as they have already found it, firm and constant.

5. Still, however, we see not how necessary that obedience is, unless we at the same time consider how prone our carnal nature is to shake off the yoke of God whenever it has been treated with some degree of gentleness and indulgence. It just happens to it as with refractory horses, which, if kept idle for a few days at hack and manger, become ungovernable, and no longer recognize the rider, whose command before they implicitly obeyed.[...]Thus, lest we become emboldened by an over-abundance of wealth; lest elated with honour, we grow proud; lest inflated with other advantages of body, or mind, or fortune, we grow insolent, the Lord himself interferes as he sees to be expedient by means of the cross, subduing and curbing the arrogance of our flesh, and that in various ways, as the advantage of each requires. For as we do not all equally labour under the same disease, so we do not all need the same difficult cure. Hence we see that all are not exercised with the same kind of cross. While the heavenly Physician treats some more gently, in the case of others he employs harsher remedies, his purpose being to provide a cure for all. Still none is left free and untouched, because he knows that all, without a single exception, are diseased.

1. WHATEVER be the kind of tribulation with which we are afflicted, we should always consider the end of it to be, that we may be trained to despise the present, and thereby stimulated to aspire to the future life. For since God well knows how strongly we are inclined by nature to a slavish love of this world, in order to prevent us from clinging too strongly to it, he employs the fittest reason for calling us back, and shaking off our lethargy. Every one of us, indeed, would be thought to aspire and aim at heavenly immortality during the whole course of his life. [...] To meet this disease, the Lord makes his people sensible of the vanity of the present life, by a constant proof of its miseries. Thus, that they may not promise themselves deep and lasting peace in it, he often allows them to be assailed by war, tumult, or rapine, or to be disturbed by other injuries. That they may not long with too much eagerness after fleeting and fading riches, or rest in those which they already possess, he reduces them to want, or, at least, restricts them to a moderate allowance, at one time by exile, at another by sterility, at another by fire, or by other means. That they may not indulge too complacently in the advantages of married life, he either vexes them by the misconduct of their partners, or humbles them by the wickedness of their children, or afflicts them by bereavement. But if in all these he is indulgent to them, lest they should either swell with vain-glory, or be elated with confidence, by diseases and dangers he sets palpably before them how unstable and evanescent are all the advantages competent to mortals. We duly profit by the discipline of the cross, when we learn that this life, estimated in itself, is restless, troubled, in numberless ways wretched, and plainly in no respect happy; that what are estimated its blessings are uncertain, fleeting, vain, and vitiated by a great admixture of evil. From this we conclude, that all we have to seek or hope for here is contest; that when we think of the crown we must raise our eyes to heaven. For we must hold, that our mind never rises seriously to desire and aspire after the future, until it has learned to despise the present life.

I tried to pare down the longer sections but I didn't want to remove their essence so I just tried to limit the number of items instead.

 

Seems that John is saying that "god" is going to hand you things if he wants to hand you things. So you should trust that will happen. It also says if you get all prideful and don't give "god" his props then he'll just take those things away to teach you a lesson. It also seems to be saying he may just give and take things away just so you won't like being on earth so much and look forward to going to heaven. But since all things come from "god" then prosperity is from "god." Pretty simple. Some get more than others so don't envy them. Seems simple too. If things aren't going well for you then that's "god's" will (ie. "arrogance" or something to that effect from the second quote...meaning you're not pleasing "god"). I like being compared to some sort of field animal in need of training. It shows where his mind is really at in this "relationship" between man and "god."

 

Seems financial wealth, health and any number of things could be considered a "gauge" for how "god" was working within your life. If you were healthy and now you were sick then "god" could be doing this for a reason. Were you doing something wrong or was "god" do this as a "test" of some sort? Same with money. Same with anything. As I said this could be compared to what we might consider a "prosperity gospel." I didn't say it was (but then again 500 years ago it almost is in a sense).

 

mwc

 

Good post - and yes, I agree that God does give or take as He desires and for His purposes. And note that Job - who experienced both great blessings and great loss said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I shall return to the earth. The LORD gives and the LORD takes away. Blessed be the name of the LORD." I believe the main purpose in all that God does is to bring glory to Himself. And part of God's glory is the maturation of His followers. So God also works for our good - and it is good for humans to be humble = to know that God is God and we are not. This failure was the great sin of Satan - in his prideful arrogance he tried to be like God in the sense of establishing his own kingdom with his own followers. What folly!! There can be, by definition, only one Supreme Sovereign Being in the universe. To rebel against an infinitely holy and powerful God can only lead to defeat!!!

 

We who are Reformed/Calvinistic in our theology would champion the "sovereignty of God" - that He is in complete control of all things. SO God has designed to purchase for Himself followers from every tribe, tongue, nation, and people. And He will work in their lives to mature them; to teach them humility through loving God & others; to teach them the value of the eternal over the temporal; to teach them to serve others at their own expense and inconvenience - "to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous of good deeds." (Titus 2:14).

 

So I agree that God does all He does for a reason - to teach us Who He is, to teach us about His love, to teach us humility, to teach us not to love this world. Now this can be tricky - because God created this world. But now - it's been ruined by sin. And we experience the miserable effects of sin everyday. So though we currently live in this world, we don't love this life, or this world, or this way of doing things in opposition to God. But we do our best to love God & others - and we look forward to the New Heavens and Earth - where there will be no more sorrow, no more tears, no more sickness, no more suffering. It will be as God had originally created the world.

 

And we can only please God as individuals by repenting of our own sins, by recognizing the love of God that has been given to us in the Person of Jesus Christ. He is God Incarnate, Who died in our place to accept the just punishment for our sins. And He rose from the dead with a glorified body, and He ascended into Heaven - where He will receive all His followers. We follow Jesus now - and then we will follow Him into heaven.

 

What a phenomenal plan - to resurrect a world that had been ruined by rebellious sin, to provide a free salvation to all who would humbly ask, to bring out repentant sinners into eternal life, to live in the relationship forever "I will be their God, and they will be My people."

 

SO being compared to a field animal in need of training, though humbling, is not far from the mark. In comparison to the Being of God - we're way down that totem pole. Scripture often compares people to sheep - who must be led and protected or they will eat poison weeds or be attacked by wolves. That is the sad reality for us. Thankfully, Jesus is the Good Shpeherd who lays down His lfe for His sheep.

[Abiyoyo]

The fact is that God has made all people free moral agents. And God has shown us that a relationship with Him gives us a fulfilled life here on Earth and an eternity of bliss in Heaven. BUT, all men are sinners. And that sin has so blinded us that we cannot see God's grace and love for us in Christ Jesus. Our Sin is so debilitating that it causes us to reject God and 'we freely choose' to follow our own selfish ways - even though we know our own ways cannot lead to blessedness.

 

If our sin has blinded us to not be able to see Christ's love & grace, causing us to reject God; then what was the point of Christ? Which one is it, He died for our sins, or died in vain because us moronic sinners can't even see His love & grace?

And God - because of His grace and love for us - has sent His own Son, to die in our place for our sins, and this Jesus rose from the dead and then ascended into Heaven, to one day take all His followers with Him there.

 

 

And you are so right - GOD IS NOT HUMAN. He is the God of the Universe, the Single Supreme Being, the Creator & Sustainer of all. He is infinite in His holiness, love, justice, grace, mercy, wisdom, anger against sin, wisdom, etc. Why would anyome reject the God Who created them and has designed an awesome eternal life specifically for Him and for them?

 

According to you; because we are selfish, sinners. We are blind, remember?

 

That is the "utter sinfulness of sin." And when we cry out to God for His mercy - He will save us. Remember the account of the tax collector in the temple in Luke Chap 18. He beat his breast and said, "God, be merciful to me, the sinner." And Jesus said that man went home justified before God, not the Pharisee who bragged about his own righteous living.

 

The word was justified, not saved. He was more justified than the other man.

 

Question. What is considered 'sin' in your Christian belief? Does this 'sin' go away once we believe in Jesus? Just curious of your stance.

[MathGeek]

Great, Christians correcting each other in this forum. The irony is just...palpable.

[rayskidude]

The fact is that God has made all people free moral agents. And God has shown us that a relationship with Him gives us a fulfilled life here on Earth and an eternity of bliss in Heaven. BUT, all men are sinners. And that sin has so blinded us that we cannot see God's grace and love for us in Christ Jesus. Our Sin is so debilitating that it causes us to reject God and 'we freely choose' to follow our own selfish ways - even though we know our own ways cannot lead to blessedness.

 

This is contradictory. You can't have it both ways. People are either free or they are not. If "sin" has blinded us so we cannot see, then how, in any sense, can we be free? If we are so utterly blinded by sin, how can we possibly know that our ways cannot lead us to blessedness?

 

Exactly and in what sense are people free?

 

As far as all your examples of sin go, we could also cite you many examples of altruism and self-sacrifice.

 

People are free moral agents, they have free agency - but not free will. Here's what I mean; every creature is constrained by its nature,; i.e., fish must live in water, tigers must hunt, etc. But within the confines of their nature and environment - they can go and do whatever they want. They are free.

 

This same truth applies to human beings. I can only do whatever is within my natural and environmental limitations. So - I cannot be a professional basketball player - becauase I don't have either the physique or the skills, though I have the desire. I cannot be a millionaire - I just don't have the business acumen that's required. I think you see my point.

 

SO also people cannot be holy and please God naturally - it's not our nature. By our nature, we will pursue our own goals - this is sin (Isaiah 53:6). This does not mean that people cannot and will not do acts of service for others - we all have human sensibilities that are God-given. We all feel the responsibility to love others and we are feel compassion for those who are suffering and we want to alleviate that to some degree. And we sometimes wish we could do more for others. But we are incapable of much that is truly and completely selfless. Can we say without reserve that all our good deeds are in no way motivated by societal pressure, or salving our own conscience, or ingratiating someone to help us in the future, or trying to win God's favor?

 

We all recognize this 'weakness' in ourselves - and we wish we could change ourselves, but we cannot change our nature. And often, we're blind to our own sinful condition, we think we're fine, that we're just human like everyone else. But that is the problem!

 

This weakness is 'sin', and it really is wicked. We are all more capable of more cruelty and selfishness than we'd like to admit. And for us not go to God for His healing transformation is also sin, the sin of unbelief that was mentioned elsewhere. God simply requires that we recognize ourselves for who we are - as in the song 'Amazing Grace" where it says the God saved 'a wretch like me... I once was lost..."

 

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." says Jesus in Matthew 5:3. In humility, we simply ask God to forgive us for our sins, we thank Him for the salvation provided to us through the death, resurrection & ascension of Jesus Christ (God in the flesh), and then we seek to follow His teachings to the best our our God-given abilities and calling. And since we're already saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus and not our performance - now we can do good deeds with pure motives. Good deeds do not procure salvation of rus, and neither do they make us 'more saved' or keep us saved, they simply are an evidence that true salvation has occurred.

[rayskidude]

Great, Christians correcting each other in this forum. The irony is just...palpable.

 

MathGeek - I gots to admit it, man. You have made me laugh - and it's a good one.

 

Just goes to show - Christians aren't a monolithic brand of people - there are different opinions on these spiritual matters.But to splay that out on this site - well, that is just too, too funny.

[agnosticator]

Rayskydude: By our nature, we will pursue our own goals - this is sin (Isaiah 53:6). This does not mean that people cannot and will not do acts of service for others - we all have human sensibilities that are God-given. We all feel the responsibility to love others and we are feel compassion for those who are suffering and we want to alleviate that to some degree. And we sometimes wish we could do more for others. But we are incapable of much that is truly and completely selfless. Can we say without reserve that all our good deeds are in no way motivated by societal pressure, or salving our own conscience, or ingratiating someone to help us in the future, or trying to win God's favor?

 

We all recognize this 'weakness' in ourselves - and we wish we could change ourselves, but we cannot change our nature. And often, we're blind to our own sinful condition, we think we're fine, that we're just human like everyone else.

 

"All our righteousness are but filthy rags", so what good people do is considered (pardon me ladies) used kotex. Human nature is capable of both good and bad, but there ARE people who commit completely unselfish acts. "Sin" doesn't exist but within christianity, in order to setup its doctrines of salvation, reward, and punishment. All this doesn't help people to solve their own problems in life, or to make them better people. It excuses their moral failings and promises them eternal life in exchange for belief, which is SELFISH. If there were no reward for believers, would they believe?

[rayskidude]

The fact is that God has made all people free moral agents. And God has shown us that a relationship with Him gives us a fulfilled life here on Earth and an eternity of bliss in Heaven. BUT, all men are sinners. And that sin has so blinded us that we cannot see God's grace and love for us in Christ Jesus. Our Sin is so debilitating that it causes us to reject God and 'we freely choose' to follow our own selfish ways - even though we know our own ways cannot lead to blessedness.

 

If our sin has blinded us to not be able to see Christ's love & grace, causing us to reject God; then what was the point of Christ? Which one is it, He died for our sins, or died in vain because us moronic sinners can't even see His love & grace?

And God - because of His grace and love for us - has sent His own Son, to die in our place for our sins, and this Jesus rose from the dead and then ascended into Heaven, to one day take all His followers with Him there.

 

 

And you are so right - GOD IS NOT HUMAN. He is the God of the Universe, the Single Supreme Being, the Creator & Sustainer of all. He is infinite in His holiness, love, justice, grace, mercy, wisdom, anger against sin, wisdom, etc. Why would anyome reject the God Who created them and has designed an awesome eternal life specifically for Him and for them?

 

According to you; because we are selfish, sinners. We are blind, remember?

 

That is the "utter sinfulness of sin." And when we cry out to God for His mercy - He will save us. Remember the account of the tax collector in the temple in Luke Chap 18. He beat his breast and said, "God, be merciful to me, the sinner." And Jesus said that man went home justified before God, not the Pharisee who bragged about his own righteous living.

 

The word was justified, not saved. He was more justified than the other man.

 

Question. What is considered 'sin' in your Christian belief? Does this 'sin' go away once we believe in Jesus? Just curious of your stance.

 

Yes - as we have both stated the word is justified, meaning to have a just and right standing before God, having been declared righteous by God. You cannot be saved without being justified. Other terms used regarding salvation are; predestined, sanctified, set apart, the called, called saints, glorified, regenerated, born again or born from above, made alive, saved, delivered, transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son, a child of God, and the Church of God. All these terms refer to people who are Christians.

 

Basically, sin is anything contrary to God's laws and commands. So as John says, "Sin is lawlessness." I John 3:4. And sin is also "doing my own thing" as stated in Isaiah 53:6 > "... gone astray, turned everyone to his own way." There are sins of commision when we do whatever God forbids, also sins of omission when we fail to do what God requires by way of good works.

 

We sin because we are sinners by nature. When a person recognizes that their sin has offended the holy God of the universe, and they come to believe in Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior (He as God Incarnate died in our place for our sins to receive the just punishment for sin), then they receive the forgiveness for their actual sins - they are now a Christian, a saved individual. a member of God's family forever. This salvation is by the love & grace of God and we're extremely thankful - because we have received a great salvation that we certainly do not deserve.

 

But, Christians still have that old sin nature present within them. They are still subject to tempation from the Evil One, the world, and their own fleshly desires. Our sin nature will not be completely removed until we receive the glorified resurrection body that we will receive when Jesus Christ returns to Planet Earth. This is the hope of every believer.

 

Does this answer your question?

[Deva]

This weakness is 'sin', and it really is wicked. We are all more capable of more cruelty and selfishness than we'd like to admit. And for us not go to God for His healing transformation is also sin, the sin of unbelief that was mentioned elsewhere. God simply requires that we recognize ourselves for who we are - as in the song 'Amazing Grace" where it says the God saved 'a wretch like me... I once was lost..."

 

So you share the usual Christian viewpoint that humans are naturally depraved. How can a morally free agent be derived from this view? It is not free if it is restrained by something. If they are already contaminated, how can they ever see?

 

We are talking about humans being "free moral agents". I think comparing this to the physical ability to be, your example, a basketball player, is not what we are speaking of. We are not talking about physical constraints here, but mental or "moral" ones, mental ones, since your position is that we must believe.

 

In humility, we simply ask God to forgive us for our sins, we thank Him for the salvation provided to us through the death, resurrection & ascension of Jesus Christ (God in the flesh), and then we seek to follow His teachings to the best our our God-given abilities and calling.

 

Humans cannot be free if they are born in "sin". Is it your position that sinful humans can, of their own volition, attain this "humility to ask God...."? I guess not, we must bring in an outside force "God's grace". Where is the freedom here? With your talk of the sovereignty of God you would make some sense if you would just admit predestination and be done with it. You simply cannot have it both ways, freedom, and your Calvinist ideas.

 

Are you suggesting that only Christians can perform good deeds with a proper motive? You say "pure" motive but I don't know what you mean by that. How can you judge the motives of others? A good deed is a good deed, you simply cannot know the motivation.

 

This idea that humans are born disordered, sinful, totally depraved, etc., is certainly one of the most damaging ideas in all religion. Personally, I think its directly responsible for the very low self-image a large number of people in the western world have.

[rayskidude]

Rayskydude: By our nature, we will pursue our own goals - this is sin (Isaiah 53:6). This does not mean that people cannot and will not do acts of service for others - we all have human sensibilities that are God-given. We all feel the responsibility to love others and we are feel compassion for those who are suffering and we want to alleviate that to some degree. And we sometimes wish we could do more for others. But we are incapable of much that is truly and completely selfless. Can we say without reserve that all our good deeds are in no way motivated by societal pressure, or salving our own conscience, or ingratiating someone to help us in the future, or trying to win God's favor?

 

We all recognize this 'weakness' in ourselves - and we wish we could change ourselves, but we cannot change our nature. And often, we're blind to our own sinful condition, we think we're fine, that we're just human like everyone else.

 

"All our righteousness are but filthy rags", so what good people do is considered (pardon me ladies) used kotex. Human nature is capable of both good and bad, but there ARE people who commit completely unselfish acts. "Sin" doesn't exist but within christianity, in order to setup its doctrines of salvation, reward, and punishment. All this doesn't help people to solve their own problems in life, or to make them better people. It excuses their moral failings and promises them eternal life in exchange for belief, which is SELFISH. If there were no reward for believers, would they believe?

 

The filthy garment stated by Isaiah in Ch 64:6 is a comparative term if you check the context. In comparison to all the good that God has done, anything we would do would be a filthy garment by comparison. This term also applies to the various motivations I mentioned that we might have for our good works - motivations that had a degree of selfishness in them.

 

I think all people acknowledge the principle of sin = and that we all suffer from it. We just don't know what to do to 'cure' our condition. But God does, thankfully. And Christianity doesn't excuse moral failings - it condemns moral failings and urges repentance from sin and a pursuit of holy living. It instructs us to be like Jesus Himself in mercy, love, forgiveness, service, helping others with charity, etc.

 

And we do receive eternal life from our belief in God. But we believe in, trust in, follow after, live for God >> not for oursleves. When God saves us He brings us into His family. And as God is our Heavenly Father - we inherit from our Father a "life" similar to His - a heavenly, eternal life. SO you cannot separate eternal life from belief in God - eternal life is a commensurate blessing to having a relationship with God. If we know God as our Heavenly Father, then we receive whateveer benefits which would arise out of that relationship.