Continued Discussion With Lnc

[uncleamin]

It's fascinating to me how when your average "generational Christian" gets on here and gets his brains beat out, most of you mock him/her and have a good chuckle. Most here taunt them and ask where they went. I really thought most of you were interested in finding truth. That is what keeps me here lurking and learning. I love being challenged by the questions, and problems that you all have with Christianity. It makes me think, research, and examine myself to see why I believe what I believe, and if those beliefs are valid. My only point is that it seems like many of you are resorting to ad hominem attacks on LNC instead of addressing his points. While there are many of you I disagree with, I still hold respect for your genuine pursuit of truth. I would hate to think that you all are content with devouring the all too common non-thinking Christians that frequent these forums. I have been reading the material on this forum for over a year and have not seen one Christian as dedicated to responding to posts as LNC. That is why I mostly just read. It is literally overwhelming to respond to the flurry of responses that is spawned by just one Christian's post. Plus, I will admit, I am just not as learned as most of you on here. I would rather keep to myself than be made to look the fool. I suppose it's my pride. Anyway, I have been enjoying the debate between several of you and LNC. I am learning much from both sides. I think it is very unfair to call him a troll and hope to see these discussions continue.

[Kuroikaze]

It's fascinating to me how when your average "generational Christian" gets on here and gets his brains beat out, most of you mock him/her and have a good chuckle. Most here taunt them and ask where they went. I really thought most of you were interested in finding truth. That is what keeps me here lurking and learning. I love being challenged by the questions, and problems that you all have with Christianity. It makes me think, research, and examine myself to see why I believe what I believe, and if those beliefs are valid. My only point is that it seems like many of you are resorting to ad hominem attacks on LNC instead of addressing his points. While there are many of you I disagree with, I still hold respect for your genuine pursuit of truth. I would hate to think that you all are content with devouring the all too common non-thinking Christians that frequent these forums. I have been reading the material on this forum for over a year and have not seen one Christian as dedicated to responding to posts as LNC. That is why I mostly just read. It is literally overwhelming to respond to the flurry of responses that is spawned by just one Christian's post. Plus, I will admit, I am just not as learned as most of you on here. I would rather keep to myself than be made to look the fool. I suppose it's my pride. Anyway, I have been enjoying the debate between several of you and LNC. I am learning much from both sides. I think it is very unfair to call him a troll and hope to see these discussions continue.

 

 

Have you really read everything LNC has posted? Maybe you have I don't want to assume, but even I haven't read everything. I stopped conversing seriously with LNC quite some time ago precisely because it is impossible to have an intelligent, or real, conversation with him. I don't know if "troll" would be the best description for him. I would mostly say that he is just another "non-thinking christian" as you put it. My main problem with him/her is that we are not actually having a conversation. LNC is just having a monologue for which we happen to be present. The same bad arguments are used over and over again and any answers we give are ignored. The he turns around and says we have not given him any answers.

 

I for one am more that willing to speak and do so civilly with many Christians who come here, and even learn from them, but only if they are here to actually have a conversation. LNC has stuck it out, I will give him that, but he is not here to learn or converse. He treats us all as petulant children instead of his equals, and offers nothing except arguments I studied and dismissed more than half a decade ago.

 

The only thing I have learned from talking with LNC is that some people are just willfully ignorant of reality and there is naught to do but simply ignore them.

[Ouroboros]

I hate it when Christians come in here and tell us how to behave. It's not like this website was created for the sole purpose of making bridges between non-Christians and Christians, or to sort out the philosophical intricacies of religion, but rather it was created to be a safe haven for non-Christians to be and say what they can't generally in real life. And yet, with this goal and purpose of the website, we continuously get the "do it right, do it my way" Christians here.

 

Uncleamin,

 

If you can't take it, why the heck do you keep on browsing and reading this website? You say you have been here a year and read all the posts and all these things bother you. Then why do you stay? If I go to a restaurant and they have terrible food, I don't go back. So obviously something titillating is pulling you back here. Perhaps it is the unrestrained candidness of opinion that you like? Or is it the questions and challenges we present? Then it shouldn't really bother you. Because if you don't like it, then there's no need to complain about it. If you don't like the company, then don't stay in that company. Easy solution.

[Guest Davka]

I do think that uncleamin has a point when he says it's not right to call LNC a troll. LNC doesn't fit the troll profile at all - he's not trolling for flames, he's trying to convert us (or re-convert us).

 

The fact that LNC tends to pick and choose his arguments is quite natural. Most of us do the same, especially when the threads get really long. If we're not reading carefully enough to hold his feet to the fire that's our problem.

[Mriana]

It's fascinating to me how when your average "generational Christian" gets on here and gets his brains beat out, most of you mock him/her and have a good chuckle. Most here taunt them and ask where they went. I really thought most of you were interested in finding truth. That is what keeps me here lurking and learning. I love being challenged by the questions, and problems that you all have with Christianity. It makes me think, research, and examine myself to see why I believe what I believe, and if those beliefs are valid. My only point is that it seems like many of you are resorting to ad hominem attacks on LNC instead of addressing his points. While there are many of you I disagree with, I still hold respect for your genuine pursuit of truth. I would hate to think that you all are content with devouring the all too common non-thinking Christians that frequent these forums. I have been reading the material on this forum for over a year and have not seen one Christian as dedicated to responding to posts as LNC. That is why I mostly just read. It is literally overwhelming to respond to the flurry of responses that is spawned by just one Christian's post. Plus, I will admit, I am just not as learned as most of you on here. I would rather keep to myself than be made to look the fool. I suppose it's my pride. Anyway, I have been enjoying the debate between several of you and LNC. I am learning much from both sides. I think it is very unfair to call him a troll and hope to see these discussions continue.

 

 

Have you really read everything LNC has posted? Maybe you have I don't want to assume, but even I haven't read everything. I stopped conversing seriously with LNC quite some time ago precisely because it is impossible to have an intelligent, or real, conversation with him. I don't know if "troll" would be the best description for him. I would mostly say that he is just another "non-thinking christian" as you put it. My main problem with him/her is that we are not actually having a conversation. LNC is just having a monologue for which we happen to be present. The same bad arguments are used over and over again and any answers we give are ignored. The he turns around and says we have not given him any answers.

 

I for one am more that willing to speak and do so civilly with many Christians who come here, and even learn from them, but only if they are here to actually have a conversation. LNC has stuck it out, I will give him that, but he is not here to learn or converse. He treats us all as petulant children instead of his equals, and offers nothing except arguments I studied and dismissed more than half a decade ago.

 

The only thing I have learned from talking with LNC is that some people are just willfully ignorant of reality and there is naught to do but simply ignore them.

 

Yes, I agree Kuroikaze. I started refraining from responding to LNC long ago. That restraint is difficult sometimes, but in my last response to one of LNC's posts, I agreed up to a point, but we were talking about what the literature says and not exactly disputing theology. I can discuss the literature all day, but when one's theology/doctrine/dogma gets into the conversation, I'm done.

[Mriana]

I do think that uncleamin has a point when he says it's not right to call LNC a troll. LNC doesn't fit the troll profile at all - he's not trolling for flames, he's trying to convert us (or re-convert us).

 

The fact that LNC tends to pick and choose his arguments is quite natural. Most of us do the same, especially when the threads get really long. If we're not reading carefully enough to hold his feet to the fire that's our problem.

 

Hey, if I can go around for 2 days with a priest about my disbelief and still not be brought back into "the fold", not to mention growing up with Fundies yet never converting, then there is no way in hell some crazed Fundie is going to convert me after 43 years of all of that crap. They would have to be batsh** crazy to continue hammering nails into a dead horse.

[Ouroboros]

I do think that uncleamin has a point when he says it's not right to call LNC a troll. LNC doesn't fit the troll profile at all - he's not trolling for flames, he's trying to convert us (or re-convert us).

Well, I kindly disagree.

[Deva]

LNC is a troll and a Habermas Bot. If you can't see it, then you haven't read enough of his posts. He repeats, parrot-like, all of Habermas's doctrine. Many have challenged him on his basic assumptions and he doesn't even respond with any inquiry. He is stuck - seems almost like an automatic machine that spits out the same answers over and over. And we are expected to not call a spade a spade?

[Guest Davka]

I do think that uncleamin has a point when he says it's not right to call LNC a troll. LNC doesn't fit the troll profile at all - he's not trolling for flames, he's trying to convert us (or re-convert us).

Well, I kindly disagree.

 

You really think he's just here to piss us off? Maybe - I haven't watched his shtick as long as you have, perhaps I'll change my views with time. So far it looks like he's doing the classic Christian Apologist thing, with all the arrogance and compartmentalized thinking that goes with it. It seems like the pissing off is a side-effect rather than the main point - but as I said, I could be wrong.

 

If he's a troll, then I need to change my tactics entirely. Trolls are for poking.

[Ouroboros]

You really think he's just here to piss us off?

To some degree. If he can "win" by us just being pissed off, then he thinks he won the argument. He might have a different intention for doing so than a regular webtroll, but the actions are the same. A web-troll might do it for the lulz, but some Christian apologists do it because it's a sign for them that they are "right".

 

Maybe - I haven't watched his shtick as long as you have, perhaps I'll change my views with time. So far it looks like he's doing the classic Christian Apologist thing, with all the arrogance and compartmentalized thinking that goes with it. It seems like the pissing off is a side-effect rather than the main point - but as I said, I could be wrong.

True. But the actions become the same, even if the intentions are different. If a web-troll try to piss people off because he's on medication or because he made a bet, it's still trolling.

 

So far, LNC has not shown one single thread of willingness to change, or admit anything anyone says to be true, or even admit when he's been proven wrong. A couple of times he has been proven, beyond any doubt, that he is wrong, and he either brush it off by not admitting it, or he comes back to it and lies about what the question really was about. This kind of behavior proves to me that he is not honest about knowing anything, or learning anything new. He only wants you to agree with him. I don't see that to be fruitful for anyone. So hence, I'm not engage with him anymore, because there's no use. Not even when we use the Bible to prove him wrong will he admit to be wrong. He intentionally twist and spin what science, historians, philosophers, and scholars say and believe, just to fit his small minded belief. And if anyone challenges him on that, he makes statements like: "You better read up on that", or "perhaps you should study more", or "you obviously don't know what you're talking about', and he does this to some of our members who does have degrees in those same areas. They feel offended. So they offend back. But then he turns around and become all whiny and whimpers about how unfair it is. No, it's not unfair. He doesn't have the degrees in these areas and can't tell people who got the degrees that they're wrong in their own expertise. They will be pissed.

 

If he's a troll, then I need to change my tactics entirely. Trolls are for poking.

I think it's better that you stay on your current track for now. I've noticed that those who are newcomers tend to give LNC a kinder treatment, but after a while you will start realize what kind of tactics he is using. One thing I can give him for sure: he is probably the best sophist I've ever met.

 

Also know that my judgment of LNC comes from comparing him with many other apologists we've had on this website. And there are small signs in their behavior which shows if they are serious and honest about what they're talking about or not. For instance, everyone I have talked to who were real could admit to be wrong about things, or admit they learned something, or even say: "hey, I never thought of that." Regardless of how strong their emotional attachment is to their religion, and honest person will be willing to admit they don't know a thing or two. But LNC he claims to know astronomy, evolution, biology, physics, quantum mechanics, history, archeology, Greek, Hebrew, and much more, better than the experts in the same fields (when we quote them), and better than people on this website (some of them with degrees). To me, that is a sign of dishonesty.

 

I have talked to Abiyoyo, End3, and many other Christians, and have reached points where I could say: "oh, you're right, I didn't think of that," and so have they. Which leads to a mutual trust of the other persons intentions of really reaching for some consensus, but I don't get this with LNC. He's more like a robot, not a human.

[BuddyFerris]

Heaven forbid, he might be just what he purports to be. Over-examination might conclude that he's maliciously intended or deliberately ignorant, but the inadequacy of the evidence should stop us short of such definitive judgment. Perhaps he's just an honest fellow who's doing the intelligent thing by listening to and talking with people who have differing ideas.

[agnosticator]

He might have a different intention for doing so than a regular webtroll, but the actions are the same. A web-troll might do it for the lulz, but some Christian apologists do it because it's a sign for them that they are "right".

 

Please go back and read LNC's posts. He is here to put us back on the path to holiness... God is righteous and we are sinners ...please define "right" and contrast this to god's righteousness. Also, please define "troll", as LNC does not live under a bridge ...unless you are referring to his trolling as a fisher of men. And women

[Ouroboros]

Heaven forbid, he might be just what he purports to be. Over-examination might conclude that he's maliciously intended or deliberately ignorant, but the inadequacy of the evidence should stop us short of such definitive judgment. Perhaps he's just an honest fellow who's doing the intelligent thing by listening to and talking with people who have differing ideas.

 

Well, long time no see, Buddy!

 

Nah, I think I got him pinned. The evidence for me is hundreds of posts between us two, and not just something I took out of thin air. It took me a year to realize that LNC is not here to learn or really debate. He hasn't changed a bit. He hasn't admitted anything anyone have said to be true. Only his view is the truth.

 

Not even you have gone so far into the dark side as he has.

[BuddyFerris]

Well, long time no see, Buddy!

 

Nah, I think I got him pinned. ...

Not even you have gone so far into the dark side as he has.

Hello Hans, my friend.

I stop by from time to time to see if the tenor of argument has changed. It doesn't much. Self-appointed experts on various sides of an issue (with supposed degrees in the field under discussion) quote popularized positions that are a decade or more out of date. Causality (and time?) crosses the singularity, by the way, according to work both before and since the turn of the century. Inflation is speculation and eternal inflation is speculation on speculation. The 'Bang' is more likely cyclic, ending in a crunch; at least that's the recent theory.

 

Apart from the recreational arguments though, i still see some honest questions and answers. Helpful, human stuff springing from what looks like genuine desire for truth. You almost get the impression that some of the folks here want to be larger than their own belief systems. To endorse the supremacy of science and of rationalism leaves us with the "purposeless" world described by Bertrand Russel, "void of meaning," where there is no possibility of doing good or living a noble life. Yet having adopted that position, so many here, yourself included Hans, live otherwise, hoping to do good, to live nobly, to walk graciously with their fellow man.

 

And you have yet to come up with a good excuse for doing so.

You're a good fellow, Hans.

Buddy

[Deva]

Heaven forbid, he might be just what he purports to be. Over-examination might conclude that he's maliciously intended or deliberately ignorant, but the inadequacy of the evidence should stop us short of such definitive judgment. Perhaps he's just an honest fellow who's doing the intelligent thing by listening to and talking with people who have differing ideas.

 

Yeah well, Buddy you are another one I can't talk too so I'm not surprised you would say this.

[Mriana]

Religion doesn't really change much over a decade. Unlike science, religion does not update itself very often.

[Guest Davka]

Causality (and time?) crosses the singularity, by the way, according to work both before and since the turn of the century.

 

Which is why I express the current position as "the universe has always existed." Although from everything I've read, time was, at the very least, significantly different on the "far side" of the singularity - assuming that it existed at all as anything we would call "time."

 

If you've read newer information, I'd love to see it. Most of my learning comes from books written for laymen, and from the pages of publications such as New Scientist. A few scraps have been gleaned from people who actually work in the field, but not much. Trying to talk shop with an astrophysicist is a simple way to learn how much you don't know - if I'm lucky, i can frame a question that doesn't make me look completely ignorant.

 

Inflation is speculation and eternal inflation is speculation on speculation. The 'Bang' is more likely cyclic, ending in a crunch; at least that's the recent theory.

 

I've read both. The two seem to take turns as the current favorite - in the 80s, the eventual heat death of the universe was fairly well accepted. Then in the 90s I started reading more about the big bang/big crunch theory. About 8 years ago I seem to recall a study which showed that the mass of the universe is insufficient to generate the gravitational pull needed for the big crunch. I honestly don't know what the current favorite theory is.

 

You almost get the impression that some of the folks here want to be larger than their own belief systems.

 

Almost.

[bdp]

And you have yet to come up with a good excuse for doing so.

 

"...excuse..."?

 

I'm not a good fellow, so fuck you.

[Neon Genesis]

 

 

I have talked to Abiyoyo, End3, and many other Christians, and have reached points where I could say: "oh, you're right, I didn't think of that," and so have they. Which leads to a mutual trust of the other persons intentions of really reaching for some consensus, but I don't get this with LNC. He's more like a robot, not a human.

Even the other Christians here who don't change their minds will at least use their own arguments and have their own unique debating style so you can tell they're a real person. LNC is just copy and pasting from his fundie scholars. We might as well be discussing their arguments on our own and ignoring LNC since that's what's happening anyway.

[Ouroboros]

And you have yet to come up with a good excuse for doing so.

Actually I do have a good excuse for doing good, and I feel and believe it's more solid and more reliable for me than Christianity was. But that's how I see it.

 

The only real reason why Christians must do the "right" things is that they have to please God. It's not like a "saved" person automatically becomes a good person. And it's not like any Christian can give a solid and single explanation to what "good" is, except to obey God's commands (usually revealed in the minds of the Christian and not the laws in the old book).

 

So what is good? I feel I have good answers for that to fit my life.

 

So why should I do those good things? I also feel that I have reasonable rationalizations for why I do them.

 

Which leads to: what is good to you Buddy? And why do you do those things?

 

And regarding LNC: Buddy, you and I have had several disputes, but I actually think I rather debate you, Rayskidude, End3, and Abiyoyo, all togheter, than LNC. Seriously, he reminds me of a spoof we had a while back, who pretended to be a Christian apologist, and were just as arrogant and stubborn (but he was just faking it of course). The path LNC has taken will not give any results on this website. His words are lost here, because he can't connect. He can't make himself appear human enough so people can listen. If you have a message, it starts with building a rapport.

[Mriana]

And you have yet to come up with a good excuse for doing so.

 

"...excuse..."?

 

I'm not a good fellow, so fuck you.

 

That is a little harsh. Of course, I have been known to say harsh things without using such strong language towards a person too.

[bdp]

And you have yet to come up with a good excuse for doing so.

 

"...excuse..."?

 

I'm not a good fellow, so fuck you.

 

That is a little harsh. Of course, I have been known to say harsh things without using such strong language towards a person too.

 

oh well.

[Guest end3]

Hello Hans, my friend.

I stop by from time to time to see if the tenor of argument has changed. It doesn't much.

 

I think it is the nature of the site.....the trickle of newly hurt people that will eventually flow by. The frustration is periodically heightened through witnessing neither side changing to the degree we would hope. I occasionally poke a little harder at the veterans here in that frustration.

 

Don't let you hope spring start spitting up brine....

 

Good to see you.

[Mriana]

Hello Hans, my friend.

I stop by from time to time to see if the tenor of argument has changed. It doesn't much.

 

I think it is the nature of the site.....the trickle of newly hurt people that will eventually flow by. The frustration is periodically heightened through witnessing neither side changing to the degree we would hope. I occasionally poke a little harder at the veterans here in that frustration.

 

Don't let you hope spring start spitting up brine....

 

Good to see you.

 

Newly hurt? Some of us have had a life time of hurt from the religious. What are you talking about? You have no clue, do you, End?

[Guest end3]

You have no clue, do you, End?

 

No clue Mriana, thanks.