An Athiest Not At Peace, Part 1 - Miracles

[AmIReallyThatBad]

PREFACE (ABOUT ME):

 

Hi. I am an ex-Christian and currently an atheist. I am male, mid-20s, and live in a southern state in the USA. Being free from religion has done wonders for my sanity, however, there are still so many things that bother me and threaten to drag me back into Christianity because I'm afraid that it's true. This has been very troubling.

 

Currently, only my non-Christian friends know that I'm no longer a Christian. My Christian friends don't know, though they've probably noticed that I'm less active in our religious discussions and they probably know that I haven't been going to Church. This isn't a problem because my non-Christian friends and Christian friends are two different groups that have only met less than a half dozen times; however, they do get along very well. Both groups live far enough away from each other to rarely ever come into contact.

 

TOPIC OF DISCUSSION:

 

The first thing I would like to discuss is "miracles of God," claimed by Christians. I have been witness to at least one of these supposed miracles. Others, I have been told about by friends that I trust and by people that I don't well enough to know if they're trustworthy or not (who are Christians).

 

Here is a list of Christian claims of miracles that I have heard about from people I have met or have been witness to -

 

1. My best Christian friend's mother was crippled. She had multiple herniated discs in her back and two other conditions there that were multiplied (can't remember what they were). She hadn't been able to really walk for years, though she often would get around on one of those walker things (like a cane but for both hands). Her husband (my friend's Dad) had recently came back to Christ after going to Church with us (my friend, myself back when I was a Christian and his Mom). One day, they stayed after the service was over in order to talk to the Pastor and his wife (it is a Pentecostal Church and the Pastor and his wife are all about miracles and modern-day healing and such). My friend and I went back to his house and were going to wait there for them. They returned after awhile, and we went outside and what did we see? My friend's mother hopped out of the car and said "I'm healed!" She told us the story of how it happened. They were all in the Pastor's office. The Pastor's wife put her hands on my friend's mothers back and said "I can see your back being healed," and my friend's mother said she could feel it. Then, she leaped up and realized she could walk again without pain. She cried, of course, but was able to walk again without pain. This was a few years ago and she can still walk, to this day. I think (though I'm not sure as I'm not a Doctor), that all of her conditions are gone. I do remember that she said she was going to tell the Doctor that it was a miracle of God, though.

 

2. Another good Christian friend of mine, just the other day, was talking with me and my previously mentioned Christian friend about miracles and faith. He was talking about how American Christians are spoiled and often selfish and that because of this, they don't have as much faith as Christians in countries where there is much less religious freedom. He began talking about China, and how the government dictated what parts of the Bible could be available to the public and what the public wasn't allowed to read (I don't know if this is true). He said that preaching the "silenced" parts of the Bible was an offense that could land a person in jail. But, he said that 34,000 Chinese people are being brought to Christ every day, on average. Then, he told us about a missionary in China who had visited his Church (he goes to a different Church than my other friend). He said that this missionary had video feeds of healing, such as the blind seeing and the lame walking. He said there were also pictures, even pictures of the dead being brought back to life! He said that he saw these pictures and that he believed. He said that as American Christians, our first reaction is to write this stuff off as unbelievable and fake, but that if we truly had faith, we would know that God is doing these things and that we should be happy about it. My other Christian friend agreed. I just said "WOW" and became very unsettled (though I didn't show it). I have known both of these guys for a long time, even before they became Christians. These friends would not make something up. If a Chinese missionary brought pictures and video feeds, then he either brought pictures and video feeds or he brought pictures (because my friend said he saw them) and said he brought video feeds, but lied. Either way, I believe that my friend saw pictures that, at the very least (assuming that the Chinese missionary would have any reason to not only lie, but elaborate a hoax), were supposed to convince him that someone had been brought back from the dead

 

3. The Pastor and his wife at my best Christian friend's Church (with the Pastor and his wife that supposedly healed my friend's mother) have made multiple claims of miracles. The Pastor has said that on mission trips, he has seen the blind see and the lame walk. The Pastor's wife told a story about how, during a children's get together at the Church, a friend of hers (can't remember if he was an adult or a kid) said that he was a little uncomfortable because one of his legs was slightly longer than the other. So, she told all of the children to "believe" and that she was going to put her hands on his short leg and make it grow an inch or two in order to make it the same length as the other ones. She said then that the guy's leg miraculously grew into place and that she was glad that all of the children got to see it, the power of God.

 

--------

 

I may be able to think of more, but I'll leave it at that for now. That's one "miracle" I witnessed (kind of) and a few others that I heard about. How can all of this be explained. Of course, some healings could happen due to the power of the mind, but someone being back from the dead (after being dead for a good while), as far as I know, could ONLY happen because of a supreme being or at the very least, something supernatural.

 

What do you ex-Christians have to say about this? How does it make you feel? How do you react? What is your rational explanation, or is there one? I'm not here to say "Ha! See God is real!" I honestly don't think I want the Christian God to exist, because there is so much about Christianity that I have come to dislike, most especially the idea of Hell, whether it is eternal physical torture or just eternal separation.

 

Discuss, and thank you for your responses.

[Skeptic]

1. My best Christian friend's mother was crippled. She had multiple herniated discs in her back and two other conditions there that were multiplied (can't remember what they were). She hadn't been able to really walk for years, though she often would get around on one of those walker things (like a cane but for both hands). Her husband (my friend's Dad) had recently came back to Christ after going to Church with us (my friend, myself back when I was a Christian and his Mom). One day, they stayed after the service was over in order to talk to the Pastor and his wife (it is a Pentecostal Church and the Pastor and his wife are all about miracles and modern-day healing and such). My friend and I went back to his house and were going to wait there for them. They returned after awhile, and we went outside and what did we see? My friend's mother hopped out of the car and said "I'm healed!" She told us the story of how it happened. They were all in the Pastor's office. The Pastor's wife put her hands on my friend's mothers back and said "I can see your back being healed," and my friend's mother said she could feel it. Then, she leaped up and realized she could walk again without pain. She cried, of course, but was able to walk again without pain. This was a few years ago and she can still walk, to this day. I think (though I'm not sure as I'm not a Doctor), that all of her conditions are gone. I do remember that she said she was going to tell the Doctor that it was a miracle of God, though.

 

I have heard of this happening before. My mom used to have epileptic seizures. She believes that she was healed by god, and she hasn't had seizures for at least a decade. From what I've read in the field of neurology, it is possible for someone to trick him/herself into believing that they are healed and then somehow repair the damage themselves. I'm kind of fuzzy on the details of exactly how this works, but I have read about it. I'm guessing that that's what happened here and the pastor's "healing" acted as a catalyst for this process. The human brain is very complex. We have only just begun to understand what our brains are truly capable of.

 

He began talking about China, and how the government dictated what parts of the Bible could be available to the public and what the public wasn't allowed to read (I don't know if this is true). He said that preaching the "silenced" parts of the Bible was an offense that could land a person in jail. But, he said that 34,000 Chinese people are being brought to Christ every day, on average.

 

Has he been to China? Where did he obtain this information? You were right to question whether the information was true or not instead of just accepting it. The 34,000 people converting to xianity a day sounds like a gross exaggeration to me. Even if it wasn't, however, China is a densely populated region of the world, so it doesn't surprise me that that many people would be converted to xianity. On the surface, it sounds like a very large and impressive number, but when you take into account that there are so many people in China and how he might have just pulled the number out of the air, it's not really all that impressive.

 

Then, he told us about a missionary in China who had visited his Church (he goes to a different Church than my other friend). He said that this missionary had video feeds of healing, such as the blind seeing and the lame walking. He said there were also pictures, even pictures of the dead being brought back to life! He said that he saw these pictures and that he believed. He said that as American Christians, our first reaction is to write this stuff off as unbelievable and fake, but that if we truly had faith, we would know that God is doing these things and that we should be happy about it. My other Christian friend agreed. I just said "WOW" and became very unsettled (though I didn't show it). I have known both of these guys for a long time, even before they became Christians. These friends would not make something up. If a Chinese missionary brought pictures and video feeds, then he either brought pictures and video feeds or he brought pictures (because my friend said he saw them) and said he brought video feeds, but lied. Either way, I believe that my friend saw pictures that, at the very least (assuming that the Chinese missionary would have any reason to not only lie, but elaborate a hoax), were supposed to convince him that someone had been brought back from the dead.

 

It's true that the missionary may have been lying. Xians are not above lying, no matter what they might say. Xians will often convince themselves of something that isn't true and then pass on that information to others. We may see this as lying, but they don't. As to the videos and pictures themselves, they can be faked. How can you really tell if a blind person can see again, or if the person was truly blind to begin with? It's the same with the disabled person, and even the dead person. The missionary would have reason to lie: to impress people enough to either convert to his religion or "become better xians". Think of this missionary not as someone with divine purpose but as a salesman. All a salesman is really after is making sure that you buy the product. They exaggerate, they make the product seem better than it truly is, they may package the product in such a way that it looks more appealing, etc. They are not above using tricks to get the person to buy the product. It's the same with missionaries. They are in the business of converting people to their religion. If they don't make the religion seem appealing, is anyone going to want to convert? Probably not. Also, your friends want to believe this is true, so they probably aren't examining this with a critical eye. They're accepting this on faith.

 

The Pastor and his wife at my best Christian friend's Church (with the Pastor and his wife that supposedly healed my friend's mother) have made multiple claims of miracles. The Pastor has said that on mission trips, he has seen the blind see and the lame walk. The Pastor's wife told a story about how, during a children's get together at the Church, a friend of hers (can't remember if he was an adult or a kid) said that he was a little uncomfortable because one of his legs was slightly longer than the other. So, she told all of the children to "believe" and that she was going to put her hands on his short leg and make it grow an inch or two in order to make it the same length as the other ones. She said then that the guy's leg miraculously grew into place and that she was glad that all of the children got to see it, the power of God.

 

Okay, two things here. The first is consider the source. You're hearing about this from people who not only are trying to get people to believe in xianity but aren't thinking critically. The second is that the story may have been warped in the retelling of it. You even admitted yourself that you don't remember some of the details, so what if they got some of the details wrong?

[florduh]

Christianity doesn't have the corner on claiming miracles, so if you think miracles are real, you could just as easily attribute them to Voodoo.

 

It's odd, but I've noticed that all the really cool miracles (healing true blindness, raising the dead) always occur in the hinterlands of Mongolia or the darkest heart of Africa. In America we get stuff like healing of headaches, slightly short legs, or high blood pressure. Just saying.

 

It's an old classic question, but why doesn't God heal amputees? Really.

 

Matt 21:22: "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (ASV)

(Not in my experience.)

[Guest Davka]

The first one is explainable through what we know of neuroscience. Thinking positively has been shown to a

speed healing, and hypnosis can block pain. The mental state of an individual can have tremendous effects on their physical well-being. Since this woman was not actually crippled in the sense of being physically incapable of standing but was instead unable to walk because of the level of pain, it would be quite possible for her brain to block the pain signals from her back, allowing her to walk again.

 

The second one sounds very fishy to me. Your friends saw some photos and were told that they represented something they wanted to believe is true. The person who showed the photos has a financial incentive to convince people that miracles are happening in China.

 

But think about it for a moment: If people were actually rising from the dead in China, do you really believe that the government would be able to keep it quiet? Word of mouth alone would blow the lid off in a matter of days. It just doesn't add up.

 

As for the last couple, that "leg lengthening" trick has been a favorite of faith-healing charlatans for ages. The minute I read that, I thought "fraud."

 

So one nerve-blocking and a couple of second-hand stories, that's what we seem to have here.

 

EDIT: If you ever get the chance, check out the film Marjoe.

[Jedah]

He said that as American Christians, our first reaction is to write this stuff off as unbelievable and fake, but that if we truly had faith, we would know that God is doing these things and that we should be happy about it.

 

This is all you needed to have heard to know this guy was obviously full of shit. "If you REALLY have faith and you are a TRUE CRHISTIAN™ then you know that EVERYTHING I say is a pure fact without any personal incentives and that magical sky daddy WANTS you to believe me and most of all support me!"

 

*Cough* *weeze* ya... sure, and I have a bridge to sell. Any takers?

 

 

This is called playing the guilt card. It's one of the oldest tricks in the field of fraud.

[RabbleRabble]

PREFACE (ABOUT ME):

I may be able to think of more, but I'll leave it at that for now. That's one "miracle" I witnessed (kind of) and a few others that I heard about. How can all of this be explained. Of course, some healings could happen due to the power of the mind, but someone being back from the dead (after being dead for a good while), as far as I know, could ONLY happen because of a supreme being or at the very least, something supernatural.

 

What do you ex-Christians have to say about this? How does it make you feel? How do you react? What is your rational explanation, or is there one? I'm not here to say "Ha! See God is real!" I honestly don't think I want the Christian God to exist, because there is so much about Christianity that I have come to dislike, most especially the idea of Hell, whether it is eternal physical torture or just eternal separation.

 

Discuss, and thank you for your responses.

 

I have a couple of friends who claim to have seen a UFO. My mother-in-law also claims to have seen UFOs. In fact there are many people all over the world who may otherwise seem sane that claim sightings, alien experiences, or even abductions. How is this relevant? Simply to point out that even if the source of a claim is from someone you would normally take at their word, there are just some things that need a higher level of scrutiny.

 

When your friend tells you they went to the library yesterday then it's understandable to simply accept that this is true. When your friend (or a stranger that your friend met once) tells you that the laws of nature have been interrupted by a supernatural force then you are should feel bound to look for more plausible explanations.

 

Is there any verifiable physical evidence? Could the "miracle" be explained with science? Is there any incentive for the one of the people involved to lie, exaggerate, or fool themselves? Even if you can't think of an explanation at the drop of a hat... well "magic" isn't the conclusion you should automatically jump to. This isn't close-minded it's just a means of determining truth.

 

If you have trouble explaining the case of your friend's mother please look into something called the placebo effect. The "miracle" of the lady who made the boy's leg grow an inch? I don't even feel that it's worth addressing. I mean if she has the power to perform miracles on someone who is slightly uncomfortable then hopefully she has used that power to cure someone with a much worse affliction. Preferably one with a medical history?

 

As for the missionary from China... although your friend was convinced by a some photos and (maybe) a video, there is no way for you to verify it for yourself as to how impressive this evidence really is. There are many reasons for people to lie and even fabricate evidence for such things. There are many examples of people being caught doing just that.

 

Isn't it suspicious that no one get's raised from the dead here in America? No one ever cures the certifiably blind here in America? This is why your friend needs a theory on why the big miracles only happen in places like China and not in the US or any other country where it could be positively verifiable. Basically he says that in order for a christian to have the faith required to perform big healing miracles a christian must be persecuted, thus no American miracles. I don't know whether his claims about christian persecution in China are correct or not, but it hardly matters since the theory itself is bullshit. How insulting it must be to the many American Christians who believe completely and with their whole heart that faith healing is possible. These people who pray with complete confidence that God can heal little Jimmy from his mental retardation or Aunt Jane of her paralysis. How cruel must their God be to punish these believers over something they have no control over. They haven't been persecuted enough so they don't get to experience the truly great miracles? (Of course this argument assumes that your friend's believe in a kind God)

 

Overall, it's just a bunch of bunkum. (love that word )

[oddbird1963]

AmIReallyThatBad,

 

It is easy to get drawn into the trap of feeling compelled to explain every miracle claim that a Christian wants to relate to you to convince you of the reality of a god. I refuse to do that anymore.

1. Even though your friends may be trustworthy as friends, they may be unreliable or unqualified to be eyewitnesses. People so want god to be real in their lives, they can twist their own perceptions of reality to conform to that desire. There are those among us who are skilled in the art of indirection, slight of hand and working a crowd. It is easy to be fooled. And you may not know just how gullible your friends may be in group and religious contexts.

2. Unless thoroughly analyzed by experts and vetted by independent sources, video is an unreliable witness in that you are not in control of the camera. The camera can be manipulated to give false appearances.

 

3. Miracle claims rarely rise to the level of biblical accounts. Though it would nice to see something, anything amazing, miracle claims today are rarely as spectacular as in the good ol' gospels. The closer to home the claims are, the more meager they are. It reminds one of the face-off between Moses and Pharoah's magicians. Today's miracle workers seem more like the magicians than they do Moses. Today, we get regrown ear drums. In the bible we got leprosy healed and dead tissue restored. Big difference.

[MatG]

I think this post is a troll. Made to try and convert.

An utter failure.

[chefranden]

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

[Guest Davka]

I think this post is a troll. Made to try and convert.

An utter failure.

 

I believe you are correct. A single post with no responses - what a waster.

 

I mean, any self-respecting troll would have at least argued with us. It's more fun when they argue.

 

 

O/T - something Florduh said made me think we need a new bumper-sticker: Atheists Pray For The Rapture

 

i have no idea why i posted that here.

[chefranden]

1. My best Christian friend's mother was crippled. She had multiple herniated discs in her back and two other conditions there that were multiplied (can't remember what they were)....

 

After thinking about it for a bit, this does sound trollish to me too. But if you really want some advice, I think you ought to go back to believing. There is obviously no other explanation than God did it.

[Ouroboros]

What do you ex-Christians have to say about this?

I wasn't there. I didn't see it. Can I trust a story? Can I trust the sources? Was all possible venues researched at the time? Was the preconditions exactly as the stories tell? ...

 

How does it make you feel?

Hmmm... I don't know. It doesn't stir any emotions, if that's what you're asking.

 

How do you react?

That your post sounds like a Christian posing as an unbeliever.

 

What is your rational explanation, or is there one?

Sometimes there most likely are. I've heard about ghost-debunkers who go to these ghost-hunted houses and find the explanations. It's too easy to believe instead of accepting that we might not have all the answers to natural explanations to a given situation. To be able to doubt and say, "I don't know" requires a mindset which allows itself to be vulnerable and unsafe. To believe in pixies and fairies to explain miracles are just the way of the mind to get an explanation where one is missing.

 

I'm not here to say "Ha! See God is real!" I honestly don't think I want the Christian God to exist, because there is so much about Christianity that I have come to dislike, most especially the idea of Hell, whether it is eternal physical torture or just eternal separation.

It could also be magical trolls or invisible dragons. Why does it have to be God doing miracles?

[AmIReallyThatBad]

I think this post is a troll. Made to try and convert.

An utter failure.

 

I'm not a troll. I'm an honest ex-Christian facing difficulties after my deconversion. I may be many things, but I'm not a liar. The idea of Christians lying continues to baffle me, as even though "the ends may justify the means," lying is obviously forbidden according to the Bible. Also, pardon me for not responding immediately.

 

Okay, there are some very nice responses here and I thank everyone who responded helpfully. I will be making more posts soon. I am not trying to convert anyone. I'm just looking for comfort and assurance in my deconversion.

[AmIReallyThatBad]

I'd also like to say that perhaps the reason I sound so much like a Christian trying to convert is because, unlike most comfortable atheists, I am often left perplexed and bothered by many supposed "proofs" of Christianity and I have a hard time finding rational explanations for them. It's hard to fight these thoughts out of my brain. It's just something I struggle with. I felt like this would be a good website to talk about all of my troubles on. I'm seeking assistance and am not trying to deceive anyone.

[AmIReallyThatBad]

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

 

I have read this website before and have found it very helpful.

[Ouroboros]

AmI,

 

Understandable. I tend to question miracles in general, because many times I've seen and heard people talk about them, and later when I get all the facts it usually tends to be quite simple to explain.

 

Once I saw this video with this lady preaching about the crucifixion and the resurrection, and she was famous to get the stigmata, blood in her hands etc, and of course this was before it was more common to know that they didn't nail in the hand, but in the wrist, so her stigmata wounds were in the palms. Later I've heard how this can be done, just with a little trickery. Based on the fact that her stigmata was in the wrong place, and that it can be done with the illusionist's tools, I can only conclude her performance was nothing but a religious version of magic show.

 

I don't know about your miracles, but I've talked to people who have seen levitating zen-monks etc, and can swear up and down and sideways that no tricks were used. But what can I say? Can zen monks miracles prove Buddhism? Can miracles involving Muslims prove Allah and Islam? If we'd put everything on equal level, we can't say if one religion is true over the other, since they all can provide these kinds of "miracles."

 

But it still leaves the question unanswered, is there something that could cause these miracles, something which is not natural. I don't think so, but... if it does, there is no reason to assume that it is a person's favorite God who did it. Who knows, perhaps "miracle power" is something that is part of the Universe and we can tap into it, and we do it through religious experience? In such case, God or no God isn't the answer, but rather the mind over matter.

[chefranden]

I'd also like to say that perhaps the reason I sound so much like a Christian trying to convert is because, unlike most comfortable atheists, I am often left perplexed and bothered by many supposed "proofs" of Christianity and I have a hard time finding rational explanations for them. It's hard to fight these thoughts out of my brain. It's just something I struggle with. I felt like this would be a good website to talk about all of my troubles on. I'm seeking assistance and am not trying to deceive anyone.

 

Ok then I apologize.

 

This would be a very useful book if you can find a copy. How to Think About Weird Things.

[Antlerman]

Just on philosophical grounds alone, why would God act like this? Why would God perform magic tricks to make the audience go "oooh, ahhhh, special!"?

 

Wouldn't God be a heck of a lot more... God like? These are the things people create in their imaginations to make themselves 'believe'. There's always a rational explanation for these things... always.

 

Again, if God were God, why be so cheap in selling himself? God wouldn't need tricks and miracles to make people believe, and to resort to them cheapens the whole Supreme Deity of the Universe thing. Seriously.

[Guest end3]

Again, if God were God, why be so cheap in selling himself? God wouldn't need tricks and miracles to make people believe, and to resort to them cheapens the whole Supreme Deity of the Universe thing. Seriously.

 

Just suppose for a minute that God is the Supreme Deity of the Universe thing. That in itself is not enough? There would still be the people that said....oh, it's just the universe. Seriously.

[AmIReallyThatBad]

I'd also like to say that perhaps the reason I sound so much like a Christian trying to convert is because, unlike most comfortable atheists, I am often left perplexed and bothered by many supposed "proofs" of Christianity and I have a hard time finding rational explanations for them. It's hard to fight these thoughts out of my brain. It's just something I struggle with. I felt like this would be a good website to talk about all of my troubles on. I'm seeking assistance and am not trying to deceive anyone.

 

Ok then I apologize.

 

This would be a very useful book if you can find a copy. How to Think About Weird Things.

 

It's alright, I understand. That looks like a very interesting book. "New Age" claims sometimes bother just as much as Christian claims. That's actually something I'm eventually going to talk about. So, I'm glad there's a book out there that helps explain the "weird things" in the world.

[Antlerman]

Again, if God were God, why be so cheap in selling himself? God wouldn't need tricks and miracles to make people believe, and to resort to them cheapens the whole Supreme Deity of the Universe thing. Seriously.

 

Just suppose for a minute that God is the Supreme Deity of the Universe thing. That in itself is not enough? There would still be the people that said....oh, it's just the universe. Seriously.

My point end, is that God in such as position as being the ALL of everything, would have zero need to stoop to such paltry levels as to perform tricks to get peoples attention. "Hey, look at me! Those other can't do this, I'll bet you! Zap! She can walk again! See? See? I am God. I really am!"

 

Get it now?

[Guest end3]

Again, if God were God, why be so cheap in selling himself? God wouldn't need tricks and miracles to make people believe, and to resort to them cheapens the whole Supreme Deity of the Universe thing. Seriously.

 

Just suppose for a minute that God is the Supreme Deity of the Universe thing. That in itself is not enough? There would still be the people that said....oh, it's just the universe. Seriously.

My point end, is that God in such as position as being the ALL of everything, would have zero need to stoop to such paltry levels as to perform tricks to get peoples attention. "Hey, look at me! Those other can't do this, I'll bet you! Zap! She can walk again! See? See? I am God. I really am!"

 

Get it now?

 

Yes, I really get it. Just trying to show that regardless of how impressive God is, there will be someone that says, "Hey, that's great God, what else do you have". But yes, I see your point.

[Antlerman]

Yes, I really get it. Just trying to show that regardless of how impressive God is, there will be someone that says, "Hey, that's great God, what else do you have".

Oh I don't know. I imagine that if this God of everything were to expose itself in full power, I doubt there would be any who could minimize or deny it. The whole notion of this sort of God having to give signs is just ludicrous. "Oh look he left a clue here for us!", is a silly notion of God that lowers him to a level of some sort of mysterious magician. All Powerful, wouldn't need to 'raise the dead' to prove itself. Of course, yes... God wants to teach faith. That's the explanation for the inconsistency. Humans and their reasoning. The true feat of magic.

[Guest Davka]

Yes, I really get it. Just trying to show that regardless of how impressive God is, there will be someone that says, "Hey, that's great God, what else do you have". But yes, I see your point.

 

Just assuming for the sake of argument that this is true, it would still beat the heck out of a God who hides and creates a universe that is totally at odds with the written record in the Bible you're supposed to believe in. Maybe a few people would say "is that all you've got," but at least there wouldn't be people saying "there is no God."

 

Knowing and rejecting is a long ways from being completely unable to know, which is the situation we find ourselves in now. Some people claim to know, but they really only believe. If God were to make his existence known to all of us, we would still be able to choose whether to accept or reject him. As it is, we have to decide whether or not to believe an improbable tale with zero evidence.

[Ouroboros]

Yes, I really get it. Just trying to show that regardless of how impressive God is, there will be someone that says, "Hey, that's great God, what else do you have". But yes, I see your point.

I'm not so sure about that. Consider this: I have a wife, I communicate with her, and I spend time with her, but yet, I don't ask "I wonder if my wife exists..." And the reason is that at a certain point a level of certainty kicks in depending on the relationship we have with someone. Trust, knowledge, questioning existence or not, all boils down to a minimal level of communication and relationship. God doesn't relate or communicate even on the level I do with my dogs! I have more relationship and communication going on with my dogs, and I don't doubt their existence. If God was to talk to me, and interact with me, at least on the level an ant would, I could consider the existence of God, but since God doesn't, then God isn't.

 

But on the other hand, if we rename the Universe to "God", or if we redefine the word "God" to mean "the Universe", then of course I can't doubt the existence of "GodUniverse." But it's nothing but a trick with words.