Spiritual Parallels And Authority

[Guest end3]

From a recent thread, I was opened to a few ideas regarding spiritual beliefs, those appearing to be similar yet separated by language and also in final meaning.....the take home message. Also, there is the authority that we all share when we describe our belief choices, that which allows for us to speak from our hearts and minds stating, "This be the truth".

 

I would hope that we might discuss some of the similarities as well as the "authority" that we possess that makes them true enough where we feel as though we may speak as with authority.

 

For example...the "blood" in Christianity, the Life, that brings nutrients to each part of the Christian body, is like the unspoken Spirit that brings joy between people as experienced maybe in other beliefs.....just for starters.

 

I realize I am behind the curve when it comes to comparative religions, but all I have is time.

[insanezenmistress]

Fasinating.

 

I wish that neuroscience would hurry to validate the mystical. Because it really gets confusing telling Divinity to be quiet because i am simply insane.

 

[Antlerman]

From a recent thread, I was opened to a few ideas regarding spiritual beliefs, those appearing to be similar yet separated by language and also in final meaning.....the take home message. Also, there is the authority that we all share when we describe our belief choices, that which allows for us to speak from our hearts and minds stating, "This be the truth".

 

I would hope that we might discuss some of the similarities as well as the "authority" that we possess that makes them true enough where we feel as though we may speak as with authority.

 

For example...the "blood" in Christianity, the Life, that brings nutrients to each part of the Christian body, is like the unspoken Spirit that brings joy between people as experienced maybe in other beliefs.....just for starters.

 

I realize I am behind the curve when it comes to comparative religions, but all I have is time.

I actually had thought of doing a similar thread to this before, with the hopes that as we examine what we mean behind the symbols, that desired understanding and connection with each other might occur. But as I considered how to respond yesterday I was stuck. I think it may be because of how this is set forth, that we would express what we mean in our symbols, our language. I think that's what difficult, as I don't really have set of religious symbols that I use.

 

However, what I think would be easier to do would be for you, or any other Christian who wishes to, to talk about what they mean by their symbols, such as you did above, and then we might take that meaning and put it into our own words. That would demonstrate that we in fact are probably not that far off in how we interact with the world or the ideas we have. If getting behind the symbols to the meaning to the person, then we should see that we are not "excluded" from that experience of reality.

 

So go ahead with some examples. You stated you see the "blood" in Christianity as the life that flows the body of common believers. I would say that is a symbolic representation of people finding shared value that they can look to as a vehicle to realize commonality with others. What value it has, is its symbolic nature.

[Guest end3]

Ok, then maybe we can try this.....Maybe start with the transcendent experience "TE" and denote a personal take on why you felt you had experienced it....and maybe a few components....who knows.

 

We need a chart K, can you do a chart with some different components perhaps?

 

Person: END3

Relgion: Christian

TE:

1)Extreme Love

2)There was a me and an It

3)It seemed infinite

Messages associated or translated through the TE: yes

Confirmation of religious practice by TE: yes, felt it was Jesus

Interpreted reason for the TE by the person: healing (for example I interpret my T was for healing)

Number of TE's: 1

Did the TE affect your treatment of others, or should it? Yes, yes.

 

I don't know folks, just trying a direction. Maybe if we could identify intent, and intent to ?

 

Which makes me think of your take K....if the experience had no intent, then why an experience at all?

 

Maybe the data will point us in a direction?....a will, an intent, a meaning, etc.....?

 

Somebody throw me a lifeline already....I am going under.

[Rev R]

Let's see where this goes...

 

Person: Rodney

Relgion: Zen?

TE:

1)Silence

2)Physical feeling of interconnectedness

3)Cessation of internal dialog

4)Stillness

5)Presence in the moment

Messages associated or translated through the TE: No

Confirmation of religious practice by TE: No...lead to "conversion"

Interpreted reason for the TE by the person: None

Number of TE's: 3, one of which was LSD induced

Did the TE affect your treatment of others, or should it? Yes

[Antlerman]

Person: Keith

Relgion: ?

TE:

1)Infinite Love

2)Infinite Compassion

3)Infinite Awareness

4)Infinite Power

5)Infinite Mind

6)Cessation of Time

7)White Light

---------

8)World opened to see vibrant life and being in all, through all, from all, to all

9)Experience of endless joy and Life flowing out of the fathomless deepest part of my being that were previously unknown

10) End of all fear

11) Vibrant wellspring of Peace in ALL

12) Living Love in ALL

13) Limitless BEING in All

14) Life

 

Messages associated or translated through the TE: Awareness of self from beyond own eyes looking out; not alone; presence of infinite love always in my life; the nature of Reality in self and the world; the nature of Compassion and Grace; the nature of Wisdom, the nature of Love, the nature of Peace.

 

Confirmation of religious practice by TE: No...led to "conversion", eventually to "de-conversion" from religion.

 

Interpreted reason for the TE by the person: My existential self faced crisis of being and chose life in the face of death. Will opened me up to that Life the exists in all and for all.

 

Number of TE's: 2 (on that level)

 

Did the TE affect your treatment of others, or should it? Yes. It affects everything to this day. Should it? I'd say rather, how couldn't it?

[Guest end3]

This is really interesting. I wish we had more data. Where is NBB? And I thought Mriana alluded that she has had an experience.

 

So far, I see that the TE's were life changing in the sense that they manifested pursuit or strong dilligence/faith in the experience and also treatment of others. I am making an assumption that the treatment of others would mean a higher consideration in a general sense.

[chefranden]

This used to be one of the most well read books in my library: Christian Zen: A Way of Meditation

[insanezenmistress]

Person: Izm

Relgion: make it up as i go

TE:

1)deep intuitive understanding

2)felt like conversation with god

3)sence of perfect timeing with my actions and circumstances

4)emotional connection with people

5)emotional connection with nature

6)felt like i could manipulate mundane things, for instance if the children and i where playing cards it seemed when i said 'you need a five' they got their five.

Messages associated or translated through the TE: yes, multiple, mostly in the area of personal psychology, and interpersonal relationships, and spiritaul interpretation.

Confirmation of religious practice by TE: hard to say as in i cant seem to make it happen of my own will/meditation.

Interpreted reason for the TE by the person: Instruction, training, prayer

Number of TE's: multiple, unfortunately people will say it doesnt count due to pot induction.

Did the TE affect your treatment of others, or should it? yes, helped me understand myself and others and apply wisdom/foresight in my daily life.

[Antlerman]

Which makes me think of your take K....if the experience had no intent, then why an experience at all?

I wanted to talk to this earlier but forgot.

 

Here's the thing. It was extremely Personal. Meaning there was what I would call "Mind", or better stated Absolute Awareness, Absolute Consciousness. What I experienced was manifest to my mind as Mind, still, infinite, eternal, aware, in a complete cessation of time. In the second case, it was not the encounter of Mind, but rather Radiant, living, vital Being, "Spirit", Manifest Infinity in everything and from everything in the material world.

 

I did not have any impression in that directly that there was any 'intention' behind it for me in any sort of specific 'calling out', or 'trying to tell me something' such thing. In fact, in my searching through the Christian system, my exposure to God portrayed as having individuals fates in His hand, with specific designs for their lives, always impressed me as rather foreign to it. It seems really anthropomorphic. I could not place many of those theological constructs of the religion into what my experience had exposed to me.

 

It really was ultimately the accumulation of these anthropomorphisms that began driving a wedge for me of that existential Being, that Spirit and my desire to have an understanding of it with my mind. Their descriptions not only failed to speak to that internal knowing, they spoke of them as authoritative, which replaced God on the throne, so to speak, with an image, their ideas, of God as God - and that is what everyone means when they speak of it as idolatry. And there is a reason why idolatry is considered bad... Now, I'm not saying that you are doing that. I don't believe you are. I'm just saying that so you understand that that does in fact happen, and quite commonly.

 

So intentions... I don't like to use that term. It makes God too human, full of the sorts of motives and actions like we might have. I would say if I had to attempt to describe it I'd view it as an inherent pull towards itself in all things. You could call that "intention", but I wouldn't say it's like God made you miss that green light to help you avoid a car accident, as some such small g god might do. I think the intention is that everything that is able to realize that higher self inside and the universe would have that. Everything does have that actually, but its about higher and deeper apprehension of That. The "intention" would be for us to Realize it, to Become It in us.

 

What happened wasn't for some specific 'purpose' for my specific circumstances, but was an opening up of myself to what IS, in my individuals response to It in this World, in myself. I don't see that as a "plan" for me, beyond it being the 'plan' for everyone and everything. I just find that how we frame talking about it, in terms of intentions and plans, can create an anthropomorphic view of God, and that limits God. It makes God a god, I found in my experience. It is better to see it as free agency in response to Spirit. That's how I see it.

[Abiyoyo]

Person: YoYo

Relgion: Christian

TE:

1)Prophetic word as a non-Christian from another person about my career

2)Prophetic word being attributed to God

3)Receiving prophetic Word as a Christian and it coming into fruition

Messages associated or translated through the TE: Yes

Confirmation of religious practice by TE: yes

Interpreted reason for the TE by the person: To prepare for the Harvest of God

Did the TE affect your treatment of others, or should it? Yes, yes.

[Shyone]

I wanted to see what this might look like for an atheist such as myself.

 

Person: Shyone

Relgion: None

TE:

1)Approaching a description of the universe, but never reaching it

2)Gaining understanding of the nature of time, matter and gravity

3)Understanding that our scale of time is miniscule compared with geologic or astronomic time scales

4)Epiphany of understanding - life, existence, time

5)Gravity ties us all together instantly - we experience the pull of distant stars that we can't see yet because their light hasn't reached us, and we don't experience the pull of distant stars that we can see because they don't exist as stars anymore.

Messages associated or translated through the TE: No

Confirmation of religious practice by TE: Yes

Interpreted reason for the TE by the person: Reason? Yes, reason. Applying reason to reality leads to TE.

Did the TE affect your treatment of others, or should it? No?, No?.

 

 

 

I'm not sure about the last question. I know that life is valuable, because it's short and finite. An infinite supply of gold or diamonds would be worthless. I think a certain part of the population exhibits a low value of life so that, should the need arise, they can exterminate large parts of the population without remorse.

 

Torquemada was such a man. I'm not.

[Franko47]

The most Transcendental Experience with me has likely been the almost abstracted sense that there is a reality that goes beyond this one; that everything humanity has thought of or built is but a mere fraction of this entirety; and that ordinary "religions" and ideas about the "ultimate" or "infinite" are but rungs on a ladder that proceeds into infinity.

 

With all of that a profound calm, a realization that it becomes impossible to feel love and compassion for myself without feeling it for others; that we are all sharing the same experience, and that the worst thing we can do to each other is to "demand".

[MultifariousBirdLady]

For example...the "blood" in Christianity, the Life, that brings nutrients to each part of the Christian body, is like the unspoken Spirit that brings joy between people as experienced maybe in other beliefs.....just for starters.

 

I think for some people in Pagan circles this idea would be called "Spirit" or "Energy," although I'm not quite sure about the latter term because that tends to be perceived as almost like a force of some kind. We had a discussion group a couple weeks ago where people described what this "energy" felt like to them, how they could feel it moving between all members of a group when we held hands, etc. Seems maybe a little different than what you're referring to. I'll think about it more and see if any other terms or examples come to mind. "Spirit" might indeed fit, though... in fact, you used the term yourself so I wonder how universal this concept might be.

 

For what it's worth, I have completely different associations of "blood" with respect to Christianity. The contexts I've heard it used in always strongly emphasized its sacrificial, "cleansing" and "protective" aspects. The groups I was in didn't use the term in the sense you refer to above. The sense you refer to is the function of blood inside the body. The groups I was involved with emphasized the "shed blood" aspect, i.e. outside the body, since this is specifically what Hebrews 9:22 and various other scriptures are referring to.

[Rev R]

Well end, I'm sure you were looking for symbolism that you could compare to Christianity in people's experience.

 

What we have seen however suggests that the experience is independent of the conceptual framework used to describe it. What does this mean? Nothing good for professional clergy, literalistic interpretations of scriptures, or exclusivist models.

[Guest end3]

I did not have any impression in that directly that there was any 'intention' behind it for me in any sort of specific 'calling out', or 'trying to tell me something' such thing. In fact, in my searching through the Christian system, my exposure to God portrayed as having individuals fates in His hand, with specific designs for their lives, always impressed me as rather foreign to it. It seems really anthropomorphic. I could not place many of those theological constructs of the religion into what my experience had exposed to me.

I would think it logical that if there truely is a God of all, then I would think He would know all. The funny thing, in my years of belief and hanging around Christians, I have heard only one man speak of an experience.....and it was to my recollection different also from anyone elses experience.

 

It really was ultimately the accumulation of these anthropomorphisms that began driving a wedge for me of that existential Being, that Spirit and my desire to have an understanding of it with my mind. Their descriptions not only failed to speak to that internal knowing, they spoke of them as authoritative, which replaced God on the throne, so to speak, with an image, their ideas, of God as God - and that is what everyone means when they speak of it as idolatry. And there is a reason why idolatry is considered bad... Now, I'm not saying that you are doing that. I don't believe you are. I'm just saying that so you understand that that does in fact happen, and quite commonly.

Well, I think without an experience, that many, including me before my experience take what is stated in the bible and derive a mental picture of what that looks like.

 

So intentions... I don't like to use that term. It makes God too human, full of the sorts of motives and actions like we might have. I would say if I had to attempt to describe it I'd view it as an inherent pull towards itself in all things. You could call that "intention", but I wouldn't say it's like God made you miss that green light to help you avoid a car accident, as some such small g god might do.

Prevenient Grace?

 

I think the intention is that everything that is able to realize that higher self inside and the universe would have that. Everything does have that actually, but its about higher and deeper apprehension of That. The "intention" would be for us to Realize it, to Become It in us.

I agree.

[Guest end3]

This used to be one of the most well read books in my library: Christian Zen: A Way of Meditation

 

thank you Chef...this very thread was specifically founded when I discovered how Zen looked at things. I don't know squat about Zen, but seems as though as AM says, it is a language or mythic thing.

[Guest end3]

I wanted to see what this might look like for an atheist such as myself.

 

Person: Shyone

Relgion: None

TE:

1)Approaching a description of the universe, but never reaching it

2)Gaining understanding of the nature of time, matter and gravity

3)Understanding that our scale of time is miniscule compared with geologic or astronomic time scales

4)Epiphany of understanding - life, existence, time

5)Gravity ties us all together instantly - we experience the pull of distant stars that we can't see yet because their light hasn't reached us, and we don't experience the pull of distant stars that we can see because they don't exist as stars anymore.

Messages associated or translated through the TE: No

Confirmation of religious practice by TE: Yes

Interpreted reason for the TE by the person: Reason? Yes, reason. Applying reason to reality leads to TE.

Did the TE affect your treatment of others, or should it? No?, No?.

 

 

 

I'm not sure about the last question. I know that life is valuable, because it's short and finite. An infinite supply of gold or diamonds would be worthless. I think a certain part of the population exhibits a low value of life so that, should the need arise, they can exterminate large parts of the population without remorse.

 

Torquemada was such a man. I'm not.

 

I admire your sense of logic Dr. A positive logical....if there is such a thing.

[Guest end3]

The most Transcendental Experience with me has likely been the almost abstracted sense that there is a reality that goes beyond this one; that everything humanity has thought of or built is but a mere fraction of this entirety; and that ordinary "religions" and ideas about the "ultimate" or "infinite" are but rungs on a ladder that proceeds into infinity.

 

With all of that a profound calm, a realization that it becomes impossible to feel love and compassion for myself without feeling it for others; that we are all sharing the same experience, and that the worst thing we can do to each other is to "demand".

 

I think we "demand" out of wanting to share our means of the best way, and mostly from the heart, to others. How to accomplish that effectively on a consistant basis.......enough said.

[Guest end3]

For example...the "blood" in Christianity, the Life, that brings nutrients to each part of the Christian body, is like the unspoken Spirit that brings joy between people as experienced maybe in other beliefs.....just for starters.

 

I think for some people in Pagan circles this idea would be called "Spirit" or "Energy," although I'm not quite sure about the latter term because that tends to be perceived as almost like a force of some kind. We had a discussion group a couple weeks ago where people described what this "energy" felt like to them, how they could feel it moving between all members of a group when we held hands, etc. Seems maybe a little different than what you're referring to. I'll think about it more and see if any other terms or examples come to mind. "Spirit" might indeed fit, though... in fact, you used the term yourself so I wonder how universal this concept might be.

 

For what it's worth, I have completely different associations of "blood" with respect to Christianity. The contexts I've heard it used in always strongly emphasized its sacrificial, "cleansing" and "protective" aspects. The groups I was in didn't use the term in the sense you refer to above. The sense you refer to is the function of blood inside the body. The groups I was involved with emphasized the "shed blood" aspect, i.e. outside the body, since this is specifically what Hebrews 9:22 and various other scriptures are referring to.

 

I had never considered this meaning about the blood until the Zen discussion....but then it just hit me.

 

The verse about, paraphrasing, "if two or more of you meet in my name", this one too popped into my head. This one seemed kind of Zen to me as well.....the something between us aspect.

 

The river of life in Revelation relating to the flow of life and death.

 

There seem to be a bunch of them.

[Guest end3]

Well end, I'm sure you were looking for symbolism that you could compare to Christianity in people's experience.

 

What we have seen however suggests that the experience is independent of the conceptual framework used to describe it. What does this mean? Nothing good for professional clergy, literalistic interpretations of scriptures, or exclusivist models.

 

Our data points are few yet Rev. Although as I was saying the other day, the accounts I have read online seem just as random as what we have posted thus far. Maybe after a few more posts, we will have some math brain (Math Geek) evaluate our data to see if we have a peak anywhere.

 

Of course the only true accounts are the ones Abi and I have posted...lol!

[Antlerman]

It's Christmas! Have you hugged your favorite Christian yet? {{{{{END}}}}}

 

It's snowing just for the occasion. 2 feet worth of the heavy, wet, heart-attack stuff. So far I'm still alive.

 

I'll respond tomorrow after the next round of shoveling.

[Guest end3]

It's Christmas! Have you hugged your favorite Christian yet? {{{{{END}}}}}

 

It's snowing just for the occasion. 2 feet worth of the heavy, wet, heart-attack stuff. So far I'm still alive.

 

I'll respond tomorrow after the next round of shoveling.

 

Excellent ONENESS my friend! I was telling my dad yesterday about the friends I had around the US and far away.

 

((((Keith and all))).

 

Happy holidays

[Deva]

((((End3 and all))).

 

I wish everyone a happy holiday and a happy and prosperous New Year no matter what you believe!

[Antlerman]

I'm playing Christmas music, and it's snowing. It's all so cool. This is a classical album, Heinrich Schütz, A Christmas Story. Quite lovely and inspiring music.

 

So to a response...

 

I did not have any impression in that directly that there was any 'intention' behind it for me in any sort of specific 'calling out', or 'trying to tell me something' such thing. In fact, in my searching through the Christian system, my exposure to God portrayed as having individuals fates in His hand, with specific designs for their lives, always impressed me as rather foreign to it. It seems really anthropomorphic. I could not place many of those theological constructs of the religion into what my experience had exposed to me.

I would think it logical that if there truely is a God of all, then I would think He would know all. The funny thing, in my years of belief and hanging around Christians, I have heard only one man speak of an experience.....and it was to my recollection different also from anyone elses experience.

I should add that I very much experienced that that awareness was very much conscious of all things. How I am, was understood in a deeply different light than my own evaluations. Everything about me is fully known, and loved beyond all comprehension. It is pure compassion, and pure knowledge. However, I don't imagine any of that to look like the myths about people who are called-out prophets and whatnot. I don't see specific plans for individuals, predestined and chosen to do this specific thing with their lives. That 'calling' is for everything, like all of life and the material world stretching to become and embrace existence.

 

I find it interesting that you say you have only heard one other Christian speak of their religious experience as anything of an existential nature.

 

It really was ultimately the accumulation of these anthropomorphisms that began driving a wedge for me of that existential Being, that Spirit and my desire to have an understanding of it with my mind. Their descriptions not only failed to speak to that internal knowing, they spoke of them as authoritative, which replaced God on the throne, so to speak, with an image, their ideas, of God as God - and that is what everyone means when they speak of it as idolatry. And there is a reason why idolatry is considered bad... Now, I'm not saying that you are doing that. I don't believe you are. I'm just saying that so you understand that that does in fact happen, and quite commonly.

Well, I think without an experience, that many, including me before my experience take what is stated in the bible and derive a mental picture of what that looks like.

Exactly. It's without context, and so the mythical stories are taken as literal facts, rather than understanding that the nature of the symbols is to try to talk about, to express something transcendent, touching on the ineffable. It's nature is ineffable, and so to define it literally as exactly what the Bible says when 'read in its plain meaning', is to make it no longer ineffable. And the experience of "God" then, centered around a reading, an interpretation of the texts, is going to be non-transcendent. However, if the words, the intellectual understanding starts with those words as allows the spirit to imagine, to go places within itself, then it begins to move into that space where Spirit informs in its own voice, which transcends reason.

 

I think that's an important point in talking about seeing Beauty in the world through science. Can someone experience the transcendent through a study of the natural world? I'd say certainly, yes! However, that experience, of necessity - is not a matter for science, nor comes from Reason.

 

Through reason we can become opened to that ineffable, but the experience of it is known, is experienced, is apprehended internally beyond reason, in Spirit. It is this distinction that I feel negates the reductionist/literalist philosophies, which are essentially the same in nature, reducing everything down to cold facts - "God is a fact, get used to it"; "All there is the material world, get used to it". Neither allows that freedom of our nature to become, to emerge into something more than we are. We are either reduced down to the elements of the machine and subject to it, or we are predestined to sin and salvation in some grand mechanistic supernatural universe. To me Spirit speaks through the process of Evolution itself. It's through it that we become, and are becoming.

 

I always said I left the religion because I grew beyond it. The same can be said of my reductionist approach. There is truth in both, but Life and Spirit transcends them both.

 

So intentions... I don't like to use that term. It makes God too human, full of the sorts of motives and actions like we might have. I would say if I had to attempt to describe it I'd view it as an inherent pull towards itself in all things. You could call that "intention", but I wouldn't say it's like God made you miss that green light to help you avoid a car accident, as some such small g god might do.

Prevenient Grace?

Interesting. From what I just read of Prevenient Grace, I'd say that begins to touch on what you were trying to get at in this thread about comparative symbols. In a sense that does reflect what I am saying, but I remove the 'God who has plans' for us mythology from it. What I would call 'salvation' is not being rescued from some sort of ultimate rejection by God (viz, eternal hell), but enlightenment. Salvation is moving from a state of dysfunction to harmony and balance and ultimately growth into more and higher states of our existence. It's why I joke with irony that 'True Salvation is freedom from religion'. I say that because anything that puts a yoke on us and says "This far, and no further", is Anti-Spirit, or "Antichrist", if you wish. That is the literalist.

 

Prevenient Grace seems to be a way to take some existential truth and place it within a mythological/theological framework. In fact, so very much of theology and religious symbolism is just that. And that's why their truths transcend the religions and cultures. They are existentially true. They are human truths of a 'spiritual' nature.

 

I think the intention is that everything that is able to realize that higher self inside and the universe would have that. Everything does have that actually, but its about higher and deeper apprehension of That. The "intention" would be for us to Realize it, to Become It in us.

I agree.

Cool. And towards that end, it becomes necessary for everyone to find what works for them, which can take many different ways of approaching it, whether it is through the Christian symbols, through Science, through ritual, through nature, they are all means to touch that internal reality inside us that transcends the rational, that transcends self-knowledge through the mind, to Truth that is, that can be said to be, Eternal.