I Shall Have To Say Goodbye My Friends.

[Major Tom]

Edited.

 

I have become a Buddhist/Christian. I shall have to say goodbye, my friends, I will not preach, but you deserve an explanation. In a nutshell. I am convinced there is good and evil in the world, personified. I cannot explain my observations and memories adequately with Newtonian and Einsteins' science. After this post, and after viewing any immediate comments I shall be out of here. But first, scientific method dictates that we each follow our evidence and here is one of mine.

 

I sent an email to a friend that went like this. I expect that no one will believe it happened. It is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:: My 1973 close encounter with the Supernatural.

 

 

John,

 

While I haven't related this experience to anybody in more than thirty years, I do remember it now as if it were yesterday. Here we go... I had a Damascus Road experience in 1973 that was as real and I am sure as startling as that of St. Paul so many years ago. This event leads me to believe that the extent of the love of God may come as a surprise to some.

 

Incredible as it must seem, way back in 1973, I had a conversation, with a person that represented Himself as God. Once while we were meeting in prayer, my brother James said something in a strange voice that was unclear to me. I was surprised to see that although my brother was addressing me in an audible voice, his lips were not moving . It was so weird. I was of course skeptical, and I was concerned that I might somehow be fooled, that this might be just James for whatever reason doing ventriloquism, so I purposely held my hand over my own lips so that I would not speak and therefore that he could not hear, I only thought these words,... "If you are who I think you are we can communicate in Spirit," We proceeded to converse for what I believe was about thirty minutes. The exchange went like this; I would ask, "What about so and so ? I am concerned that he or she may not be saved." Each time a very kind man's voice, which was not the voice of my brother, would say out loud through James, and I quote, " Don't worry Jonathan. I won't lose even one of my lambs." I asked on behalf of the souls of about a dozen souls or so, and finally realized that he was saying that no souls would be lost, I got up the courage to ask another question, "Why are you speaking to me in this way now, and through James?" He responded most kindly, almost amused it seemed to me, by saying, "I pretty much do whatever I want to do, Jonathan." I clearly remember thinking to myself at that moment, as I was almost giddy at His response, "I'll bet you do, God... I'll just bet that you do."

 

I am getting a little bit ahead of myself. Let me retrace a bit. This occurred in 1973 when I was a flight instructor at the Pensacola Naval Air Station. All through that evening and into the next morning I with my wife, and brother James.beside me, was in prayer kneeling at the living room sofa. We had been in an intense prayer session for well over five hours pleading for the billions of lost souls. I was talking to the Lord (praying), telling Him that, quite honestly, I did not see how I could be happy in Heaven when my brothers and sisters of humanity were to perish.

 

As I was anguishing over this, the idea came to me to plead as Abraham did in the O.T. for Sodom and Gomorrah. I prayed, "Father I know You can arbitrarily do whatever you want to do for you are God. Now, Father, I am reminded that you once granted Abraham a great blessing in that offer you made to save the cities of Sodom and Gamorra if just ten righteous could be found. In that same way of thinking, I do beg of you to save humanity, yes Father, all of humanity if I could only find just one righteous, and not ten." Even as I was thinking of this and before I prayed it I knew that God surely knew what I was up to (I was embarrassed), so I more or less blurted out the idea that the one righteous that I had in mind was Jesus, In a tranquil and patient tone He audibly said, "Jonathan, I will not lose even one of my lambs." This came through the mouth of my brother, James, and his lips were not moving. I was elated with joy, and at the same time somewhat confused. I felt that I had to ask the question, " Lord, how do I know that it is you talking and not a deceiver?" His answer was, "Jonathan, I think that you know how you can discern how you might know," ... to which I pondered and then replied, "Yes, I think I do know." I paused, collected myself, and then asked, "Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh?" His answer was immediate and I quote verbatim, "Now you know, Jon, that 'I AM'". I shuddered. The hair to the back of my neck stood up for I realised that I was in the presence of the Most High God. The conversation was ended at that pointed. I stayed there kneeling for an hour or so, until James came out of his trance. He just said, "Let's go to bed now Jon."

 

It took months before I got up the courage to relate this story to family. I rarely tell it. I've told it less than a dozen times. My many brothers and sisters have asked me, "Why you, Jon? ... you're not the spiritual one in the family by any stretch. My answer is always that I have no idea why me. I have a great peace about how everything is going to turn out despite great tribulation that is imminently looming in the years before us.

 

End of true story.

 

- Jonathan

------------------------------------------

 

And now I will say goodbye.

[Deva]

I am always slightly curious why people have to announce they are leaving and give reasons.

 

Tom, this is an old experience (1973). Something else must have happened recently to give you reason to reinterpret it. If it was so real, why would you ever become an atheist?

 

I am glad it was a positive message for you. Anyway, goodbye.

[Vixentrox]

Enjoy your self-delusion and imaginary friend if that's what works for you. I have no doubt it happened. People imagine all sorts of things all the time and it seems real enough.

[Tabula Rasa]

Tom, I'll just say this: If Yahweh is willing to damn people to eternal torment because they don't get saved, then it

would be an understatement to say it speaks ill of his nature. I keep wondering what's really what. If there's a

God, if there is no God, if there is what it's nature is. I think I can safely say that if there's a supreme being,it

would do a whole let better for the beings it created than the whole "worship me or else" of Yahweh/Jesus.

Yes, there's good and evil, but if God exists and thinks we need to be chastized so we don't do evil things, it

would punish us, but also give us guidance, not consign us to eternal torment just because we don't do what it says.

 

This is what annoys me to no end. How Jews,christians, and Muslims insist that the Abrahamic god is all powerful,

but they believe he can't do better by humanity than the pathetic examples in the Bible and Koran.

 

Do what you think is right,but I think you're just going back into a whole lot more mental anguish, agonizing over if

you've done enough to save the lost.

[insanezenmistress]

I can relate. I have also had such conversations. Though I cant define what I would call God by any satisfactory stretch, nor could I defend it, I have had Spirit explain things in terms I could understand. Those terms where at first limited to chrisitan (biblical) words, but with experience and study the terms changed and became interchangable with buddhist,hindu,taoist and psychological terms.

 

I dont belittle what you experienced, it was real and it was for you. I have also reconverted and de-converted and reconverted again, I call my religious cycle re-un-de-conversion. But I have a smattering of questions for you.

 

How will you deal with the inconsistancies now? How will you dela with dishonest appoligetic tactics? Will you be able to handle the shallow hero worship? How will it be that your personal interpretation and revelation will be rejected in favor of dogma? But then that is the story of the bible isn't it? Jerimiah watched his words burn. Personally it was rather a struggle for me to always been seen as a newly converted lamb in what ever church I would join after reconversion, and to never be given place to help others deal with things that wheren't the devil but simply hurt psychology, but that is my own ego issue.

 

Of the many conversations here at Ex christian, one thing I cant deny is the shortcommings and fruit of the religion, and the rarity of those actaully livin the promise.

 

This is not to say that no one gets the promise, just that followers of Christ are indeed rare. But then Jesus did ask, would he find anyone faithfull at all when he returned.

 

I wish you the best of experiences, may you be guarded and strong. Personally, though I like the idea of god, I cant quite exist in the shut down state I find in churches. ( even temples and groves for that matter)

 

But not everyone is cut out for the life a hermit.

 

Be blessed where ever you roam.

 

IZM (justine)

[wt-hell?!]

Tom, this is an old experience (1973). Something else must have happened recently to give you reason to reinterpret it. If it was so real, why would you ever become an atheist?

I'm a little curious about this too. I was a bit lost while reading this since it was a 1973 experience. Do you have your story posted elsewhere? And what was the more recent event of your re-conversion?

Anyways, I hope you have a good journey wherever you go, filled with peace and not headaches.

[agnosticator]

I no longer make important decisions based upon my altered states of consciousness, or hypnopompic and hypnagogic states of mind. Sure, they were real to me, but they are also real to Muslims, Hindus, Jews, New Agers, etc. Here in the USA, our altered states would never be about Allah and His Will for us (unless we were raised Muslim).

 

If your experience was objective, then all the others would be too, making for an insane reality with conflicting Gods battling for their human possessions. Our brains have the tendency to tell us what we desire, expect, and assume to be real.

[Shyone]

I have become a Christian (again).

 

I felt that I had to ask the question, " Lord, how do I know that it is you talking and not a deceiver?" His answer was, "Jonathan, I think that you know how you can discern how you might know," ... to which I pondered and then replied, "Yes, I think I do know." I paused, collected myself, and then asked, "Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh?" His answer was immediate and I quote verbatim, "Now you know, Jon, that 'I AM'". I shuddered. The hair to the back of my neck stood up for I realised that I was in the presence of the Most High God. The conversation was ended at that pointed. I stayed there kneeling for an hour or so, until James came out of his trance. He just said, "Let's go to bed now Jon."

 

And now I will say goodbye.

Funny how most of us haven't had that kind of experience. I would have asked different questions, I'm sure, like, "Did you really tell Moses to slaughter those women and children from Midian?" I suppose His answer would have been, "Now you know that I AM an asshole."

 

At any rate, your Hallowed Hallucination lied to you, unless you consider that answer to be a dodge. Jesus was a man, and he is still dead.

 

In 1973, I was in College. Good memories.

[insanezenmistress]

 

Funny how most of us haven't had that kind of experience. I would have asked different questions, I'm sure, like, "Did you really tell Moses to slaughter those women and children from Midian?" I suppose His answer would have been, "Now you know that I AM an asshole."

 

 

Thats funny, because I did ask such questions and my answer was that those things where recored by power hungery men and not the legacy "god" intended. Then came the speil about how man has an experience then filters it through his ego, gets attached to it and uses it to control other men baised on power, control and his personal sence of making things "right".

 

Another thing I'd like to mention is, many of the answers given during such experiences are very like dodges. It is because, in my oppnion, your brain does not know the answer. Your vision tends to only know what you know, or what you can intiut. I have caught my "god" in lies (ie ignorance and misinterpretation) before. Therefore I know the experience was not the really real god thing I hoped it was.

 

I am , like the others, curious about what happened recently to induce spiritaul need. I am imagineing it comes from the feeling of impossible badness in the world, as you ( Major tom) mentioned that. I find it can drive me bonkers trying to understand why humans want to be bad. Junxtipositioned against the realness of connection one feels during such experiences it becomes a most powerfull opiate.

 

But in the end not a support for the actaulality of any human religion, merely parts of them.

 

izm

[Cracked]

I spoke to Satan once during an acid trip in 1985. He didn't seem like a bad guy. I knew it was all in my mind then and I still know it was all just an illusion fabricated by my brain.

 

I knew a person who believed in Satan and went on to be part of a satanic cult. They killed four people in Salida, CA. Said person is now on death row.

 

"Perception is reality"

 

Good luck with your thoughts and your life.

 

Douglas

[HRDWarrior]

I certainly hope you find peace in whatever choice you make.

 

I just find it rather interesting how NO ONE ever hears from Zeus, Ra, Allah, or any god other than their own. I would give these types of experiences a lot more credibility (well, or at least it would make me consider them a lot more) if anyone actually heard from some random god that they knew nothing about. For example, if a staunch American christian heard from Quetzalcoatl even though said person had never studied South American history, religion or just watched some movie about it, I'd have to think it was a bit more credible.

 

Having experiences from things that you are knowledgable about is, IMO, our minds at work. You were in a 5 hour prayer session before this happened...there is scientific evidence that shows that different parts of the brain get activated and deactivated in religious fervor, specifically the part of the brain that ties us to reality and our actual, physical location and surroundings. The thing is, this brain activity is the same DESPITE the type of religion. Meditating Buddhist monks and praying nuns both experienced the same brain activity, but both interepretted it very differently - the nuns interpret it as God speaking to them, the monks consider it coming close to enlightenment. Either way, there was no one specific being that speaks clearly to all people who have these experiences, they only experience the beings they consider to be real. And it's really all "in their heads" - some like to think a supernatural being begins the process in people's minds, yet said being never clearly identifies themselves - they leave that up to the individual based on that person's knowledge, which to me proves it literally is all in their heads.

 

Lots of people have very vivid, detailed stories about alien abductions - are we to believe they're all true to? Of course not, that's just plain ol' silly, and I believe most religious experiences are similar. Yes, you may very well have experienced something that was very real to you, but it wasn't god - it was your brain reacting to the situation you put it in, and it reacted with the answers and things you wanted to have confirmed.

 

I would hope that your faith and religion is based on a whole lot more than some experience you had 36 years ago. As for evil in the world, that is a human invention. I can pretty much guarantee that my dogs, cats, horse or any other living breathing creature does not see any "evil" around them, they just see life, good, bad or otherwise, but no mastermind of evil. Since humans are the only ones who have that idea, again, I'd say it's pretty much our invention.

[hereticzero]

I have become a Christian (again). I shall have to say goodbye, my friends, I will not preach, but you deserve an explanation. In a nutshell. I am convinced there is good and evil in the world, personified.

 

Gawd almighty, for not preaching, you sure filled up a screen!

 

After 30 years you post this now? What did you do finish seminary school and now you want to evangelize us poor heathens? Get more brownie points for leaving the flock and returning? Why go into a long drawn out reason for leaving if it's not for show to someone?

 

I am convinced evil is personified in the world too. It exists as religious weirdos. In the USA, these weirdos are called Christians and they spread their brand of insanity across the globe.

 

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2009/11/25/the-family-c-street-group-tied-to-uganda-death-penalty-for-gays/

 

If you want to believe atheists are evil, go ahead. You are sleeping with the enemy of humanity if you are a believer of Christianity or Islam. Christians have proven themselves for the evil and wicked people night after night on television news and every time they open their mouths, they prove just how stupid they choose to be.

[hereticzero]

I drink Scotch. Perhaps you should change your brand?

[Roan7995]

Next time tell your god to appear before humanity in a similar manner so we can put an end to all the struggling and fighting done in his name. That would only be humane.

 

Auditory hallucinations are some of the most common, and I find it suspicious that you had just the hallucination you needed to have your desire for humanity's salvation satisfied after hours of prayer. There's no telling what kind of mental state you were in at the time.

 

Do try to be one of the decent Christians...

[OnceConvinced]

Ahhhh, well obviously you were never a true ex-Christian to begin with. A true ex-Christain could never return to the delusion.

[RankStranger]

Don't let dissociation be your rudder in life.

[qec]

Actually man, who gives a fuck? Not about your beliefs-as that is important in it's own right even though some disagree and may even ridicule you, myself included- but about the fact you are now a Christian. Stick around anyway bro!

 

If you are going then goodbye ( :/ ), but I for one would love it if you stuck around mang .

[florduh]

1973? WTF?

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

Do as you will man, but put some more stalk in evidence.

You experienced what many tribes all across the world experience, some are drugs induced and some are like your. The point I am trying to make is that this is nor from divine, but do as you will.

[bdp]

...ground control to Major Tom...

[Franko47]

Fair enough. I don't think there's any point in trying to pick apart and debunk your 1973 experience; it seems to be a bit of a an anchor for you to fall back on in your decision to accept Christian belief again.

 

Yes, there is is good and evil in the world, but it is not some "mysterious" thing that cannot be studied, analyzed, and understood through sound philosophical and rational thought. This to me is part of the great failing of a lot of religion; it doesn't attempt to understand the emotional, psychological and even ego-driven reasons behind our behaviour. It just wants to wrap human nature into a simplistic system of naughty and nice, and that somehow converting to a religion will "solve" this problem, or if not the problem, then the "consequences".

 

Anyway, peace be upon you.

[lunaticheathen]

Hrm. Alright, whatever cranks ya tractor. Just don't get annoying.

Unlike (it would seem) most of the people in this forum, I've also had very moving spiritual experiences that I still believe - of course, none in a christian context at all. I've prayed to Abraham's god and Jesus for hours on end as well, and never got more than the feeling I was talking to myself. But I've seen and spoken with many other deities and spirits in the "pagan" world. And I know several people here would call me delusional for that. Some already have.

So go with what works for you. But like I said, please don't get annoying to sensible people who just want to be themselves. Then we can all get along, even if you stayed.

[Vixentrox]

...ground control to Major Tom...

You know I was going to.....but thought better of it....now I wish I had posted it.

[Tabula Rasa]

I'm wondering if maybe this should be moved out of Testimonies to ex-christian life or maybe Lion's den. I'm concerned fresh deconverts will see this here and be discouraged.

[Big.blue.nation]

One contention I have with this story is why such a small number of believers experience these things. If there really is an omnipotent, omniscient & omnipresent "PERSONAL & LOVING" God concerned with the affairs of billions of human beings, WHY SO HIDDEN to most? Why are these mysteries relegated to being understood or spoken to 0.01% of belivers? This is one thing that has always irritated me with religion, the so called "prophets" who claim to have a "special revelation" apart from those in their own group. From Paul, to the Pope, to Joseph Smith, to Joan of Arc, to Bob Jones...all claiming to have a direct line to God. I'm just highly suspicious of such claims, because throughout human history the result is usually not a good one; usually a new war or new religion.

 

I apologize if this sounds harsh, and don't want to demean what may have been a very positive experience for you, but until this supernatural being chooses to make him self more clear and less ambiguous to the human race he supposedly loves, the scales tip in favor of reason and scientific observation.