Christianity not a religion??

[Mike D]

The reason Christianity calls this sex a sin, is because of the attraction to feminism.

Hmm, well that's not my understanding of Christianity. What I was taught (and what most others were taught, I suspect) is that sex is a sin because god said so, not because of the attraction towards women. And sex within the confines of marriage is allowed (even encouraged), so heterosexual sex is perfectly fine as long is it is within the rules.

Christianity wants all to be attracted to the masculane Gawd that is like a mind over matter.  Making already married men and guys already with a women eluded to this.

I see what you are saying, but I think god is supposed to be more like a the ideal of a primitive male leader, not something sexual.

  But I didn't have a women in my life, to have such elusions about having my sexuality taken.  Cause something about Christianity calling sexuality a sin, was (?) not understood the way I was understanding it to be.  The idea to me was like trying to get rid of feminism, so that masculanity was the trip in Christianity.

The reason for this, which seems clear to me, is that the Bible was written by primitive tribesmen about a male god, for a male-only audience. And so I don't think it has anything to do with homosexuality, I think it has everything to do with the place of females and femininity at that time in human history. Females was viewed as weaker, not as smart as men, not as capable as men, etc., and therefore feminine qualities represented something that primitive men did not value. That's why god is a male, he represents power, strength, leadership, etc., etc., etc., which were all ideals that I imagine primitive males valued highly. To be exact, they wanted their own King, so they described their idea of one and attributed it to the unknown. To me this makes perfect sense in the context of a book written in the dark ages, by males, about males, and for males.

[SkepticOfBible]

hi there Seeker,

 

Apart from the links I gave you here is some more food for thought

 

If you still want to debate more with the pastor, i can already see you a winner, and we'll try to defeat him on his terms. Here is some of the christian propanganda available from the net

 

 

http://www.carm.org/seek/denominations.htm

 

"The reason there are different denominations within Christianity is because the Bible allows for us to have differences of opinions. Within Christianity there are very few essential doctrines that make someone any Christian. These essential doctrines are,

 

Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).

Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).

Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).

There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)

God exists as a Trinity of persons:  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (See Trinity)

Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary (nature of incarnation"

 

  As long as a church believes in these essential doctrines, then it is Christian. "

"Neither salvation nor damnation is dependent upon our differences.  Our salvation is based on our relationship with Christ."

 

Since you are a catholic, by that reasoning it means that you already believe in the essential doctrines of chrisitianity. Note in doesn't say whether you cannot believe in other biblical doctrines whether it is the doctrine of speaking in tongue or doctrine of asking saints to pray from you. So catholism is already a different denomination. So what is the need to convert you. According to the protestant worldview Catholics ought to be saved, since catholics are already christians ie believe in christ as the saviour and the son of god.

 

http://www.carm.org/40_objections/40-3.htm#_1_20

 

"If you believe that in order to become a Christian you must be good, then you misunderstand or don't have a good understanding of salvation. A Christian is a Christian by the gift of God (Rom. 6:23), not the work of man (Eph. 2:8-9). There is nothing you can do to earn salvation or keep salvation. It is simply something God freely gives you. If you want it, confess your sins, repent, turn to God, and trust Jesus as your only Savior. Then, and only then, will you become a Christian"

 

Since as a catholic you already trust Jesus as your saviour you are saved and hence a christian

 

 

http://www.carm.org/40_objections/40-1.htm#_1_5

 

"Faith in Jesus is sufficient for salvation. You don't have to do anything. Christ has done it all. However, baptism is very important and all believers should be baptized. If you refuse baptism after salvation, I would doubt your conversion."

 

So there is nothing more left for you to do.

 

 

My suggestion to you will be to stop going to their bible study groups. One thing that I have learnt with my dealings with christians is that they will not always hold this position "I have the ultimate truth, the person is wrong. My truth is ultimate cause I get it from the bible." Christian do not play fair in debating. The reason why there is so much contradiction in the bible cause ultimately it was written by fallible men who thought that they were representives of god. The bible did not fall out of the sky, it was voted in.

 

Here is my own personal question to the pastor. Since the catholic bible and protestant bible are the different what makes him sure that his version of the bible is correct?

 

I hope that helps. I am really happy to hear that you have found a great gal, and it will sad to see you break your relationship over religion.

 

Pritish

[Vigile]

I apologize for not being clearer. Yes absolutly if you can of course I would love it if you could back up my own arguments (we all want to be right I guess!!!!) , make them more understandable, modify them. And I have ALOT more questions I've brought up to Christians that I would love to share with you guys. But I have so many I figured I'd post a few at a time.

 

Hi Seeker,

 

You will get some good answers here. Bottom line though is that you did pretty good on your own. Someone like the pastor you've confronted who has already made up his mind is going to appologize the hell out of any answer you give him; if in fact he listens at all. More likely he will hear only what he wants to hear as he burries his head in a sand of faith.

 

You have a good mind. Welcome to the forum.

[Vigile]

I don't know what Pascals Wager means. And I'm to sure what you meant by that post. I was just saying that the only reason ANY belief system tempts me is because of fear. Which I believe is a wrong way to make decesions in life.

 

 

He is refering to the wager that says you have everything to lose if you are wrong and everything to gain if we are right, so just accept christ just in case. Hans then pointed out that if such logic were credible it would be better to take Islam up on the wager since its hell is worse and its heaven is better. The point is, the logic is flawed.

 

As for the fear, that is the bullshit. They tell you that Jesus is loving, yet he is also the creator. He created hell, he created sin, he forknew you would reject him, yet he created you anyway. Doesn't make him so kind and loving does it?

 

Besides, the concept of hell is just ridiculous if you exam it for a few minutes. Infinite punishment for finite sin? Torture for minor infractions? Would you inflict such on your worst enemy, much less your own progeny whom you say you love?

 

And the concept of sin is equally insane. Much sin is the act of not repressing natural desires; going against our own evolutionary development. Even thinking lustful thoughts is a sin. Once they have you, you will find that EVERYTHING is a sin and that you are ALWAYS on your knees begging god to forgive you for every little trivial thought and deed (read Romans 9 - or is it 8? - where Paul suffered this sort of schizophrenia). And the ultimate sin, rejecting a miserable illogical message of salvation for which you are provided no evidence; for refusing to believe in something despite common sense and contrary evidence, you are sent to hell for ever and ever?

 

All of this makes sense only in light of the argument that this fear is a tool used to get you and to keep you in their stupid system of belief.

[seeker]

Hey guys. I just read all the replys and I must say I'm surprised at the response I've gotten. Happily surprised. Everyone brought up great points and I've got a few more resources to read now (thanks to those that posted links). You know its funny. I'm not an atheist, and I wouldn't quite say I'm agnostic (although if I had to choose right this second thats probably what I'd go with). For some reason when I sort out all the B.S (or what I consider to be the B.S) from all the belief systems I hear the same exact messages. Humans word thinks differently. We have different ways of explaining the same exact thing in different cultures. I see no difference in the Christian belief of "Doing unto others as you would have done unto you " compared to the Buddhist belief of Karma. If you treat someone like shit expect it to come back around to you. The whole Ten Commandents do NOT impress me. The idea of NOT killing, stealing, etc I'm SURE was around before Moses. The fact that the people who wrote the Bible were killed and tortured does NOT impress me. Muslim extremist's are doing that today.

 

The fact that a man or God died on a cross for my sins does NOT make me fall to my knees and feel that I'm not worthly. Because to me if he was God then he didnt' have to feel any pain if he didn't want to. And since he was God...how did he die??? Christians tell me well he was also a man, and I say yea but he was also God, and they say he was also man.....AHHHHHHHH...circles!!!!!! I

 

tell the Christians in these Bible studys "If God knew I wasn't going to accept him anyway then why even allow me to be born?? So I can be used as an example of how NOT to live for all the "worthy" Christians...sounds sick to me. They tell me "well you have a choice to accept him or not...free will" . And I say " Yea but if he alreadys knows the choice I'm going to make then how the hell am I free??? They say " Because who are you to question an all mighty creator?? ". And I say "I'm the little stupid human that he created...he gave me the gift of freedom of thougth and now I'm being told that very gift will put me in hell?? "

 

I also asked these Christians "Why would an all knowing God create little tiny creatures to do nothing but worship him?? Sounds like an Ego maniac to me". They tell me "Because he loves us and because he wanted to share the secrets of the universe and show us all the beauty there is....and our only price to pay is to accept that we have him as our creator and worship him for giving us that gift of being able to witness such beauty ". I diddn't really have a comeback for that one. In a way I guess you can't get something for nothing. So if I get to wip around the universe when I die and see all the things that truly interest me I guess there must be some price to pay for that. Ughhh... My brain is gonna pop.

[Ouroboros]

Hey guys. I just read all the replys and I must say I'm surprised at the response I've gotten. Happily surprised. Everyone brought up great points and I've got a few more resources to read now (thanks to those that posted links). You know its funny. I'm not an atheist, and I wouldn't quite say I'm agnostic (although if I had to choose right this second thats probably what I'd go with). For some reason when I sort out all the B.S (or what I consider to be the B.S) from all the belief systems I hear the same exact messages. Humans word thinks differently. We have different ways of explaining the same exact thing in different cultures. I see no difference in the Christian belief of "Doing unto others as you would have done unto you " compared to the Buddhist belief of Karma. If you treat someone like shit expect it to come back around to you. The whole Ten Commandents do NOT impress me.

You seem to have a good rational and open minded head, that’s what counts. We have theists and deists on this site too. It’s all about if you can be open enough for alternative answers to the mysteries we see in the world.

 

The idea of NOT killing, stealing, etc I'm SURE was around before Moses. The fact that the people who wrote the Bible were killed and tortured does NOT impress me. Muslim extremist's are doing that today.

It did exist before Moses. The Hamurabi (sp?) is the oldest law (IIRC), and it doesn’t allow killing either. There’s nothing new under the sun.

 

The fact that a man or God died on a cross for my sins does NOT make me fall to my knees and feel that I'm not worthly. Because to me if he was God then he didnt' have to feel any pain if he didn't want to. And since he was God...how did he die??? Christians tell me well he was also a man, and I say yea but he was also God, and they say he was also man.....AHHHHHHHH...circles!!!!!!

The circular arguments are typical for religions, since there’s no proof of their religion being the true one, they have to make up explanations and reasons to justify the existence of it.

 

I tell the Christians in these Bible studys "If God knew I wasn't going to accept him anyway then why even allow me to be born?? So I can be used as an example of how NOT to live for all the "worthy" Christians...sounds sick to me. They tell me "well you have a choice to accept him or not...free will" . And I say " Yea but if he alreadys knows the choice I'm going to make then how the hell am I free??? They say " Because who are you to question an all mighty creator?? ". And I say "I'm the little stupid human that he created...he gave me the gift of freedom of thougth and now I'm being told that very gift will put me in hell?? "

You’re doing just great! Welcome to the club of skeptics!

I also asked these Christians "Why would an all knowing God create little tiny creatures to do nothing but worship him?? Sounds like an Ego maniac to me". They tell me "Because he loves us and because he wanted to share the secrets of the universe and show us all the beauty there is....and our only price to pay is to accept that we have him as our creator and worship him for giving us that gift of being able to witness such beauty ". I diddn't really have a comeback for that one. In a way I guess you can't get something for nothing. So if I get to wip around the universe when I die and see all the things that truly interest me I guess there must be some price to pay for that. Ughhh... My brain is gonna pop.

The whole idea that God needs to have worshippers and adorers of his greatness is a sign of weakness and insufficiency on his part. A perfect and ideal God would not care if you praise him or not, he would create the world for company, and that’s it. And if he wanted the company, he only needs to come down to our planet and spend some quality time with us, instead of hiding in the clouds like some coward. Besides why does someone that has everything need company? It’s a contradiction.

[Vigile]

tell me "well you have a choice to accept him or not...free will"

 

God gave you free will and god damnit if he won't send you to hell if you use it...

 

Or try this on them: God sent himself to save you from himself.

 

The reason their logic is so nonsensical is because it only makes sense if you already made up your mind that it does before the challenge began.

[SkepticOfBible]

Hi there Seeker,

 

As HanSolo said. Welcome to the club. Your situation was pretty similar to mine.

 

I had never given a damn about religion and never knew about the details about christianity. It's only now that I have come to live in place where it is dominated by fundamentalist did I bother to look it up. And what I saw was not good.

 

You and I are similar in the sense if I like a topic I like to ins and out of it. Be it socialogy, science fiction or whatever. I guess that was a nasty disease I suppose.

 

Anyways if want to chat more on MSN or require more links(I got tons more) or something you PM me and I can give you my hotmail ID.

 

C Ya,

Pritish

[narcissist]

Pastors response was " When you accept Jesus you don't want to have sex anymore, you want to walk with Jesus and be like him.....yada yada yada".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Take it from an ex-christian: Accepting Jesus into your heart DOES NOT make you not want to have sex any more. It simply reduces the opportunity to do so, and fills you with guilt and shame that you secretly still want to.

 

The number of former christian friends of mine who got married because they got their girlfriends pregnant is further evidence of this.

[thomas]

....... a part of me that is scared of what happens to me when I die. The fear that I will be punished. But honestly thats the only reason. Fear. And making decesions based of fear is what IN MY OPINION fucks people over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Welcome Seeker.

 

I know the feeling. When I was a child my mom told me about heaven and hell, and this has a had a huge influnce on my life. I was a Christian for many years, before I finally left because of all the contradictions.

 

Now I believe, that Christainity produces fear of death, in order to motivate people to become Christians. In a similar way, Christinity also tells people, that there lifestyl is sinful, so people may want the Church to help them change.

 

Christianity is like a business man who hits you with a knife in order to sell you a bandage.

 

Of course, nobody wants to die, but the amount of fear we have in the western world, is totally unjustified.

[seeker]

I don't have much time on the internet but I'm trying to respond everyone who has responded to me and thanks again! Can someone please tell me what the meaning behind using an underscore in God is?? For example when some says G_d...what does that mean?

[Ouroboros]

I don't have much time on the internet but I'm trying to respond everyone who has responded to me and thanks again! Can someone please tell me what the meaning behind using an underscore in God is?? For example when some says G_d...what does that mean?

It's something borrowed from the Jewish religion. You were not supposed to say or write Gods name. So they write something that resembles it. It's to show reverence to God.

[seeker]

It's something borrowed from the Jewish religion. You were not supposed to say or write Gods name. So they write something that resembles it. It's to show reverence to God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hmmm. Maybe you could help translate this for me then. Its from an old teacher I had in College with whom I've emailed to get his opinion on all this. He's a bit over my head sometimes. Tell me what you think he's saying.

 

"The boundry between religion and politics is slippery, and people too easily mistake the political power to convert with expressing their own religious faith. I'm suspicious that those who are compelled to convert me have fallen out of religion and are practicing politics.

 

My personal lights are that G_d is singular and that when we give attributes to G_d, especially human attributes like intelligence, intention, purpose, plan, etc. then we violate the spirit of the commandment not to make images of G_d. Even though G_d exists without any human (or other) characteristics, the result of G_d, i.e. the world, is essentially a message from or example (even instance?) of G_d. This world, and how it works, is as close as we are going to get to understanding G_d. It is our most primary source.

 

A careful study of the world starts to reveal (to me) that G_d expresses (loves?) variety, multiplicity, infinite differences, and some level of competition among them. Darwin recognized this in a way.

Variation, then selection then variation, selection,... forever.

It's like that with Faith. We should expect that G_d is present to different people in different ways. It is our highest work to try to understand or embrace that presence. Everyone has to have the right, and the duty, to follow the call that they (and perhaps only they) hear.

If you meet people who hear a different call than you do, then that's okay for them and they have to follow that call. For them to insist that their call is the only correct call is a claim that conflicts with what we can see all about us as the variety of the world that expresses G_d to us. "

[Ouroboros]

Hmmm. Maybe you could help translate this for me then. Its from an old teacher I had in College with whom I've emailed to get his opinion on all this. He's a bit over my head sometimes. Tell me what you think he's saying.

Okay. At first glance it looks like your teacher is a Naturalist, and then he might be using "G_d" more out of respect for different religions, and also to not specify a particular God as a reference, i.e. instead of saying God/Jahveh/Allah/..., he's using G_d to simply reference the "god concept".

 

 

"The boundry between religion and politics is slippery, and people too easily mistake the political power to convert with expressing their own religious faith.  I'm suspicious that those who are compelled to convert me have fallen out of religion and are practicing politics.

Agree. Politics and religion is extremely close in concepts, and my personal opinion is that most of the more complex and intricate religions have been born out of a political need to control and maintain power, rather then help people be re-connected with “God”.

 

My personal lights are that G_d is singular and that when we give attributes to G_d, especially human attributes like intelligence, intention, purpose, plan, etc. then we violate the spirit of the commandment not to make images of G_d.  Even though G_d exists without any human (or other) characteristics, the result of G_d, i.e. the world, is essentially a message from or example (even instance?) of G_d.  This world, and how it works, is as close as we are going to get to understanding G_d.  It is our most primary source.

This is the Naturalists approach. If God exists, then nature, cosmos, life and existence is the Gospel from God, and no holy book is needed to explain who God is or what his character is like.

 

I really like what your teacher is saying. He even took it to the level that it’s a violation of God to give God attributes that resembles the human attributes. If God exists, then his nature, behavior and attributes are totally unknown to us.

 

A careful study of the world starts to reveal (to me) that G_d expresses (loves?) variety, multiplicity, infinite differences, and some level of competition among them.  Darwin recognized this in a way.

Variation, then selection then variation, selection,... forever.

I like your teacher even more. He basically gives the foundation of an all encompassing faith. Almost like a form of humanistic religion instead.

 

It's like that with Faith.  We should expect that G_d is present to different people in different ways. It is our highest work to try to understand or embrace that presence.  Everyone has to have the right, and the duty, to follow the call that they (and perhaps only they) hear.

Agree again. If God exists, he would present himself and make himself known on an individual basis rather than a generic way through prophets. When other people have a “revelation of God”, you can never know if what they experienced something that was in their minds or if it was real. So the only way God could reveal himself to humanity, it would have to be on an individual basis.

 

    If you meet people who hear a different call than you do, then that's okay for them and they have to follow that call.  For them to insist that their call is the only correct call is a claim that conflicts with what we can see all about us as the variety of the world that expresses G_d to us. "

Basically, if you hear Gods call in your life, or have some unique experience of the supernatural, then you can’t claim that you have the only and absolute truth and that everyone else has to follow your lead. Your experience was intended for you, and you only, and not for everyone else to follow.

 

Thanks Seeker, your teacher summed up some thoughts I have had lately but couldn’t put words on. Very nice!

[zfunkman]

Welcome Seeker,

 

I suggest you read the ENTIRE bible, front to back, old and new testiment, and use the intellect, knowlege, reason, etc. that you have to figure out what its all about. After reading the entire thing this may help you out in your discusions with christians.

[seeker]

Okay. At first glance it looks like your teacher is a Naturalist, and then he might be using "G_d" more out of respect for different religions, and also to not specify a particular God as a reference, i.e. instead of saying God/Jahveh/Allah/..., he's using G_d to simply reference the "god concept".

Agree. Politics and religion is extremely close in concepts, and my personal opinion is that most of the more complex and intricate religions have been born out of a political need to control and maintain power, rather then help people be re-connected with “God”.

This is the Naturalists approach. If God exists, then nature, cosmos, life and existence is the Gospel from God, and no holy book is needed to explain who God is or what his character is like.

 

I really like what your teacher is saying. He even took it to the level that it’s a violation of God to give God attributes that resembles the human attributes. If God exists, then his nature, behavior and attributes are totally unknown to us.

I like your teacher even more. He basically gives the foundation of an all encompassing faith. Almost like a form of humanistic religion instead.

Agree again. If God exists, he would present himself and make himself known on an individual basis rather than a generic way through prophets. When other people have a “revelation of God”, you can never know if what they experienced something that was in their minds or if it was real. So the only way God could reveal himself to humanity, it would have to be on an individual basis.

Basically, if you hear Gods call in your life, or have some unique experience of the supernatural, then you can’t claim that you have the only and absolute truth and that everyone else has to follow your lead. Your experience was intended for you, and you only, and not for everyone else to follow.

 

Thanks Seeker, your teacher summed up some thoughts I have had lately but couldn’t put words on. Very nice!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hans Thanks so much!!! I wasn't sure where he was going with the whole Commandment thing. I thought "Is he Jewish perhaps??". And what I find REALLY interesting is when you called him a "Naturalist". Because he is VERY "earthly". He has like 2 phd's. One in Philosophy and one in Comp Sci (the class I took with him). EXTREMLY smartman. But he never told us about his multiple degrees. In fact he insisted everyone jsut call him by his first name. He would come to class with his notes and pencils in a cardboard box....kinda eccentric I guess. He looked like that white wizard guy from the Lord Of the Rings. Long grey hair always in a pony tail. So yea. Funny how you picked up on that!!!! Thanks again you cleared it up perfectly for me!!!! O he also had some picture in his office that said somehting about Pagans....I always rememberd that and I'm still not sure what Pagan is. I heard its a "mother earth" view of things. But I'm not sure.

[Ouroboros]

He looked like that white wizard guy from the Lord Of the Rings. Long grey hair always in a pony tail.

Sounds like he is a lost relic from the 60s! Hihihi

 

O he also had some picture in his office that said somehting about Pagans....I always rememberd that and I'm still not sure what  Pagan is. I heard its a "mother earth" view of things. But I'm not sure.

Paganism is not one particular religion or faith, but a name for many similar beliefs, like druids, wicca, odinism etc... "Pagan" was minted by the Christians for the "non christian" or mainstream religions. It's like Earth-religion that you mentioned.

 

I don't think Naturalism is necessarely the same as Pagan though. I think Naturalism is more like Deism... but I'm not 100%

[seeker]

Sounds like he is a lost relic from the 60s! Hihihi

Paganism is not one particular religion or faith, but a name for many similar beliefs, like druids, wicca, odinism etc... "Pagan" was minted by the Christians for the "non christian" or mainstream religions. It's like Earth-religion that you mentioned.

 

I don't think Naturalism is necessarely the same as Pagan though. I think Naturalism is more like Deism... but I'm not 100%

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Sent you a PM!!!

[Ouroboros]

Sent you a PM!!!

Didn't go through. Or did you send email? Sometimes the PM doesn't work of some reason, or maybe it's just delayed...

[seeker]

Didn't go through. Or did you send email? Sometimes the PM doesn't work of some reason, or maybe it's just delayed...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I just tried it again...hopefully that worked!!!

[I Broke Free]

Is Christianity a religion?

 

I honestly don’t think any religion fits the definition of a religion. (At least not the definition any follower would agree to.)

 

How many Christians are there?

 

Well if you add up all the people who claim to be Christians, and then subtract out all the people other Christians say are not really Christians, you come up with ZERO!

 

Thus Christianity (and all the others) is not a religion, but is basically a cult of “self” disguised as a religion.

[Amethyst]

Thus Christianity (and all the others) is not a religion, but is basically a cult of “self” disguised as a religion

 

Agreed.

[seeker]

Hans and Amanda....I've sent you guys replys to your PM's. Just checking if you got them (I guess sometimes they don't work).

[Ouroboros]

I just tried it again...hopefully that worked!!!

Yeah, I got it, and responded some. I'm going to write the rest of the response soon. It's just a bit busy at work and at home...

[Ouroboros]

How many Christians are there?

About 2.2 Billions.

 

Well if you add up all the people who claim to be Christians, and then subtract out all the people other Christians say are not really Christians, you come up with ZERO!

If you're an apostate like yourself and me, yes, zero.

But if you're a Christian, you usually end up with one. Yourself.

 

Thus Christianity (and all the others) is not a religion, but is basically a cult of “self” disguised as a religion. 

Yup. All religions are cults. Cult and religion is the same thing to me.